modern ballads

05 Jan 04 - 07:36 AM (#1086297)
Subject: modern ballads
From: GUEST,Bev

How would you define a modern ballad, and what do you think are examples of good ones?

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05 Jan 04 - 03:44 PM (#1086536)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: GUEST

A ballad tells a story. What is so special about it being "modern".

The old ones are usually best because they have been refined by countless singers over the centuries.

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05 Jan 04 - 04:10 PM (#1086553)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Phil Cooper

I would agree that a ballad tells a story. I like the old ones as well. But, a new one that I would count as a ballad would be a song like John Prine's Sam Stone. Several of David Massengill's songs would also count (Orphan Train, My Name Joe). I'm sure there's a lot more. A jazz person would say that a ballad is any song that's slow, but I prefer the story myself.

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05 Jan 04 - 04:28 PM (#1086565)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Ballads by Michael Bolton border on being fecal in nature.

I much prefer "beat" to ballads. They are much better in keeping someone awake.

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05 Jan 04 - 04:36 PM (#1086573)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

"Set 'em Up, Joe." I've got a little story----. The Arlen-Mercer classic.

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05 Jan 04 - 04:37 PM (#1086574)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Ed.

The term 'ballad' currently means a myriad of things, and is pretty much a perfunctory term today.

As such, a question such as: 'what's your favourite ballad?' will elict as many answers as people who post.

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05 Jan 04 - 05:15 PM (#1086601)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: McGrath of Harlow

In the folk context, a ballad is a song that primarily tells a story, rather than doing one of the many other things songs do.

So long as there are new stories to tell, there'll be a place for new ballads. To match up to the old ballads they have to be pretty good -but there's no reason we should expect them necessarily to follow the same storytelling conventions - though they are pretty good conventions which translate into modern life pretty well.

Here's a song by the Mudcat's InOBU (Larry Otway of New York), "Centuries of Pain, the Ballad of Amadou Dialo", which I think is one of the best modern ballads I've ever come across. (This set of words is the one I use, and it has a few variants from Larry's original, which is on the Cat somewhere. That's what happens with folk ballads):

Amadou was born, where humanity was born,
In a land forced to give away its best.
Where the stranger's hand, tore the wealth from out the land
even tearing her children from her breast.
Verdant forests cut down, and the gold ripped from the ground
her diamonds shine in many the foreign crown;
Ancient wisdom despised, history buried beneath lies,
her's a legacy of centuries of pain.

Well, he came to a land of gold, where his people's wealth was sold,
hoping here to find a place and make his way.
By the sweat of his brow, he would make a life somehow,
in this strange land far from family and friends.
In the streets of New York, he set out to find his dream
though the truth it was far from his hopes
still he thought he might get by, though he sometimes wondered why
all around him was a legacy of pain.

Coming home one night, in his hallways stark white light,
gunmen challenged him - he turned to ask them why.
As the guns together blazed, all alone stood amazed
Why was he being murdered by these men?
As he lay there on the ground, those strangers crowded round
tried to say that he'd been reaching for a gun.
But the truth was plainly clear, like so many more each year,
he'd been murdered by that legacy of pain.

A mother came to take, her child back to lie
in the soil from which humanity had sprung
And in that mother's tears, we saw the burden of the years,
of a land forced to give away her young.
Amadou, oh my son, what have these strangers done?
They never see the son I held so dear?.
Were they blinded by their badge, or by the color of your skin?
or by the legacy of centuries of pain?
Were they blinded by their badge, or by the color of your skin?
or by the legacy of centuries of pain?

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05 Jan 04 - 05:21 PM (#1086606)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Ed.

In the folk context, a ballad is a song that primarily tells a story, rather than doing one of the many other things songs do.

If we're defining folk as 'traditional' I'd suggest that apart from the odd slushy love poem, they pretty much all tell a story of sorts?

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05 Jan 04 - 05:30 PM (#1086615)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Amos

"A song that has a plot" is the original sense pf the term; it was only latterly that it became corrupted to me torch song, love song, or any of the other opinions flying around posing as definitions.

Modern ballads? "Darcy Farrow" is a wonderful example of a ballad that captures the ambience of much older music. So does Annie Cooke's "Plain White Shift". There are hundreds of good ones out there, and the modernity of them depends on how you are measuring -- some people would count anything laster than the Renaissance as Modern! :>)

A

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05 Jan 04 - 05:37 PM (#1086623)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Ed.

You're on dangerous ground, Amos, if you wish to define the 'original sense':

OED
Fr. ballade f. Prov. balada dance, song or poem to dance to, f. balar to dance: cf. BALL

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05 Jan 04 - 05:44 PM (#1086631)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: McGrath of Harlow

There are plenty of traditional songs which are primarily lyrical, where the "story of sorts" is secondary.

For example, Carrickfergus certainly isn't a slushy love song, but there's no clear narrative in it. It's made up largely of elements which have been used in ballads, but that doesn't mean it's some kind of defective ballad. It doesn't set out to tell a story, but rather to present a mood. That's what I mean by lyrical. And there's many another example of this kind of thing.

There are storytelling traditions where teh story itself is not in verse, but where at some momeents of the narrative a song will take over. Those songs aren't ballads.

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05 Jan 04 - 05:46 PM (#1086632)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Ed.

What is your definition of a ballad, McGrath?

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05 Jan 04 - 05:56 PM (#1086643)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Herga Kitty

I thought Kevin's definition was in his 5.15 post - a song that primarily tells a story.

I reckon Jim Eldon's Widder of Brid is a striking example of a modern ballad.

Kitty

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05 Jan 04 - 06:03 PM (#1086649)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: John Nolan

This very ancient ballad, which was unearthed in a small New Hampshire town a few years ago, as an oddly modern ring to it.
I
God prosper our selectmen three,
Oor liffes and saftyes all!
A joyful mudding once there did
On Ten Rod Road befall.
II
To climbe a hill in Chevy truckes
Came chosen men of might,
Who knew ffull well in time of neede
That Budde wud serve arright.
III
These tidings came to Warden Browne,
In Puddledock he lay,
Who sent the mudders present word,
He'd stop them if he may.
IV
The truckes ran swiftly through the woods
To reach the Whitehouse hill,
The blast of many a knightly horne
Did make an eccho shrill.
V
With mirey tote road steep before,
And Ten Rod Road behind,
The dryvers mustered gallantly,
Payd Warden Browne no mind.
VI
And long before high noone they had
Quaffed down a case of Budde,
Then one by one the dryvers went
To battele with the mudde.
VII
To win the topmost of the hill,
These truckes roared uppe the slope,
Til ooze and slime, 'spite booze sublime,
Defeated eche knight's hope.
VIII
It caused stout hearts great greeve to see
Eche noble Chevy foiled
White cloudes of steam from truckes did ream,
As radiators boiled.
IX
Then knights, at speede, their dames dispatched,
As custome bade they oughter,
Through woodes to trampe 'til buggy swamp,
And fetche back cannes of water.
X
At length came there a Champion,
Whose strove with mickle mighte
And trusty 44 inch tires,
To gain the muddy height
XI
Greate cheers did ring the greenwoode through,
And Buddes were quafféd down
To celebrate the victorie –
When uppe rade Warden Browne.
XII
"Shew me," sayd he, "what men ye bee
That mudde soe boldly here,
And with a scant regard for law
Do quaff yon cannes of bere."
XIII
The first man that did answer make
Was noble Ceejay hee,
Who sayd "Wee wist not to declare,
Nor shew what men wee bee."
XIV
They've mounted in their Chevy truckes,
And shewing little ffeare,
Sped merrilie from Warden Browne,
Ere he could draw his spere.
XV
Forsoothe their plates with dirte were caked,
Thus did they thwarte pursuite,
Unhappilie the warden's car,
Mired down in mudde, to boot.
XVI
Now Browne has ta'en a dreadful oath
He would avenged bee,
On suche as mudding reivers bold,
Under the greenwoode tree.
XVII
Yet God save our selectmen three,
And blesse this land with peace,
And grant hencforth suche rivalrie,
Twixt noble men may cease!

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05 Jan 04 - 06:15 PM (#1086660)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The several definitions of ballad have been given in another thread sometime in the past year (and probably several times before that). OED 1.-The original sense of a song to accompany a dance has pretty well been lost.
OED 2.- A light, simple song of any kind; now specifically a sentimental or romantic composition---
OED 3.- A popular song, spec. one scurrilously attacking persons---
OED 4.- A proverbial saying---.

OED 5.- A simple spirited poem, ---originally sense 3, in which some popular story is graphically narrated---.
This is the sense desired by McGrath, but unfortunately one that only a few people would hew to. I think that Bev, who started this thread, is seeking examples that fit this sub-category.

OED 6.- Use in words or comb. such as ballad-monger, ballad farce, etc.

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05 Jan 04 - 06:22 PM (#1086664)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Thanks, John Nolan. Reminds me of the 1930s' "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court," with Will Rogers (Little Austins replace the noble steeds).

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05 Jan 04 - 06:54 PM (#1086684)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: GUEST

You know what?

I think we should petition Dictionary makers throughout the world.

It's obvious! Whetever Kevin McGrath thinks that a word means should be taken as given.

The 1. of any word with multipe meaning, in any dictionary should be what Kevin says. Obvious when you think about it!

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05 Jan 04 - 06:56 PM (#1086687)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Burke

James Keelaghan's "Cold Missouri Water"

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05 Jan 04 - 07:12 PM (#1086699)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: McGrath of Harlow

Now I imagine that GUEST 05 Jan 04 - 03:44 PM with "A ballad tells a story" is probably not the same person as GUEST 05 Jan 04 - 06:54 PM who evidently doesn't think much of that as a definition. Or of course it could be the same person doing a u-turn.
......

Of course the word ballad has acquired various meanings over tiem; that is what words often do. However it seems to me that, in a discussion about folk music the one about being "a song telling a story" is the most significant one.

An analogy: in a discussion about Russian Art, icon has a rather different meaning from the same word in a discussion about computers. The fact that the computer sense of the word may well be more often used these days in society as a whole does not alter that.

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05 Jan 04 - 07:49 PM (#1086719)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Snuffy

Judy Small's Mary Parker's Lament

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05 Jan 04 - 08:08 PM (#1086727)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: GUEST,Russ

Don't want to get involved in the definitional discussion. I sing the old ballads, the muckle sangs, so I know what they are.

I've run into some modern songs they I am wiling to dignify with the term "ballad". For example, I love Richard Thompsons "52 Vincent Black Lightning" and John Duffy's "Bringing Mary Home."

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05 Jan 04 - 10:38 PM (#1086796)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: GUEST,johnfitz.com

A ballad, to me, is a good story well sung. I think as a culture we've lost the patience to listen to a good story poorly sung, and so we do have something we can call a modern ballad These are songs that are superbly written literary gems in which the story "is" the song. The moral message (if there is one) is carried through action, dialogue and the development of an engaging story line. The chorus, if there is one, points the listener back into the complexity of story. (quite the opposite of modern country songs which are sometimes, and I think erroneously, refered to as ballads). Any chorus shoud be subtle and not editorialize the message for someone who might not get it. A good modern ballad is stylistically a natural evolution of the more ancient ballads, but there is a huge difference in how they are created and transmitted. Modern ballads survive as the gifts of highly skilled writers who have chosen a song to tell their story. I speak as someone who has been performong ballads from the same corner of the same small tavern for over twenty years. I experience what works and doesn't work in a very real and immediate way. A good modern ballad is an intensely moving and often emotional experience. Thank god for folk songs to add levity and communtty to the evening. But that is another arguement...

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06 Jan 04 - 10:08 AM (#1087074)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: McGrath of Harlow

Whether a ballad is sung well or badly obviously makes a big difference, but it isn't part of the definition of what makes a ballad.

Then there's the question of what well sung means in this context. There are other traditions and other ways of doing it, but my own preference is for the approach which has been traditional in ballad singing in the British Isles, which means understated when it comes to emotion, with the words and the story in the driving seat rather than the singer.

But I disagree with the assumption some people have that modern narrative-ballads (a useful term that side-steps issues of definitions) can only be viable set in an antiquarian setting, in olde worlde language. That's why I posted Larry Otway's ballad of Amadou.

And here's another modern day modern ballad, this time one I wrote:

Black Rosie came from foreign parts,
from Africa we're told,
and Rosie came to England,
where she walked the streets of gold.

And when Rosie came to London
she was working as a maid,
and Rosie had no papers,
So they used her as a slave.

Till Rosie she could take no more,
so she crept away in flight,
with a little plastic suitcase,
on a rainy London night.

But she didn't speak the language,
and she couldn't ask for help,
and Rosie was illegal.
It was Rosie for herself.

And she dodged around and she loaded around,
and she got back on her feet,
for Rosie was a fighter,
and she'd never yet been beat.

And in time she had a little son,
by a man from Nottingham,
and he used to knock her round at times,
he was that kind of man.

Sp Rosie she took flight once more,
and this time she went far,
and she took her little girl with her,
and she took his daddy's car.

And she drove and drove through a winter's night,
and into a winter's dawn,
and she stopped in a city in the North,
where she met with a man named Sean.

And Sean he worked on the North Sea rigs,
and a decent kind of man,
and they lived for a year as man and wife,
and they had a baby son.

And Rosie learnt to talk in time
and they made a few good friends,
and they looked ahead to a future bright.
But that's not how the story ends.

For the rig blew up, with the men aboard,
and Sean among the dead.
But Rosie had no papers,
and they said they were not wed.

And they said she was illegal,
and she'd have to go back home.
Oh,the kids could stay in England,
but Rosie, she must go.

And she begged them and she pleaded,
sure there had to be some way.
But Rosie was illegal,
and they said she could not stay.

And the police came knocking on the door,
saying "Rosie, open wide",
but Rosie never answered,
nor the children by her side.

And the police they knocked on through the door,
and they found them lying there.
The children lying so still and quiet,
with dead Rosie kneeling there.

And the Council paid to burn them,
and a few good friends were there.
But she wasn't quite a Christian,
so she never had a prayer.

But if God is in his heaven,
then he's looking down today.
And he's looking down on England,
and he's saying "I will repay."

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06 Jan 04 - 10:19 AM (#1087088)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Peg

Can't we aaccept that the "definition" is complex and has evolved over time? Arguing over what the 'true' meaning is of a word that clearly has multiple modes of meaning seems like a waste of time, and picayunish.
If there is one TRUE definition, I think a source should be offered for it; otherwise it's really just a long-winded opinion.

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06 Jan 04 - 10:49 AM (#1087110)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton

McGrath of Harlow,
                  When you penned your ballad you forgot to give us the first verse

Rosie`s friends all told her.
"You`d better not forget it"
"If you enter Britain illegally"
"You`ll very soon regret it"

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06 Jan 04 - 01:05 PM (#1087180)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: dick greenhaus

Subdued rant to follow:

Damn it all! If one is to use a word, it helps if bothe the communicator and comunicatee agree on what the word means. While "ballad" started out as something that could be danced to, and most recently has come to be used for any slow pop tune, there's a good reason for limiting its folk use to "a narrative song that tells a story". That's how Child used it, as well as Bronson, Lomax, Kennedy, Henderson, Ennis and all the rest of the respected folks in the field.
    A proper ballad TELLS a story, and doesn't just imply it. There are a bunch of modern ballads, including a lot of country songs (Coward of the County, BRinging Mary Home, Omie Wise etc.), many railroad songs and many sea songs that fit this category (Edmund Fitzgerald and Flying Cloud come to mind immediately.)
    Why not leave the word "ballad" a;one and argue about what's "modern"?

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06 Jan 04 - 02:25 PM (#1087226)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Stilly River Sage

My Dad (John Dwyer) collected English, Irish, Scottish and American ballads and folksongs, carefully distinguishing the types. I have to agree with Dick on this one. The ballad tells a story.

SRS

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06 Jan 04 - 07:53 PM (#1087492)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: GeoffLawes

Herga Kitty, are you sure Jim Eldon has written a Widder of Brid song? The late Jake Thackeray is famous for having written a song of this name, and having all Jim's recordings I know that if he has written a Widder of Brid he hasn't recorded it. However, on the question of modern ballads, Jim performs an extraordinary fiddle and song version of Bat out of Hell on his latest CD ( Fiddle & Song )which is bound to be of interest to anyone who is into the ballad song form.Another tremendous modern ballad in my opinion is Kate McGarrigle's Jacques Et Giles on the Matapedia CD.

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07 Jan 04 - 08:33 AM (#1087867)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Wolfgang

Ballade in German is used now, in the context of songs, exactly as McGrath has defined it for English. You even may find this word in recent song titles like "Ballade von dem/der..." (Ballad of the...).

Wolfgang

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07 Jan 04 - 10:29 AM (#1087956)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: McGrath of Harlow

But in English "ballade" doesn't mean "ballad", but refers to a particular verse form. It all gets very confusing.

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07 Jan 04 - 09:17 PM (#1088420)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Art Thieme

I'm with Dick and S.R.S.

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07 Jan 04 - 11:16 PM (#1088454)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: GUEST,johnfitz.com

The initial question on the thread asked How "you" defined a modern ballad. I wrote what I personally consider a modern ballad to be. I never meant to imply that my definition was "definitive." It was merely a personal reflection, which I think was in the spirit of the original thread. Without an accepted meaning we are left with an evolving and malleable word. A good number of songs on my last CD were attempts at being true to the traditions of ballad singing. If you're interested

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08 Jan 04 - 02:39 PM (#1088852)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Nerd

I think we're getting worked into a lather for no real reason. The difference between the "song that tells a story" and other definitions is that the first, "a song that tells a story," is the technical definition within the academic field of folklore, while "a slow love song" is the most widely-accepted popular definition. It's unfortunate that these two definitions should be almost opposite, but it happens sometimes. (In the field of folklore, "myth" is a story that is religious and believed to be true, like the story of Jesus or that of Moses or that of Isis; in pop culture "myth" is a story that is secular and shown to be false, as in "that's just a myth," etc).

The folkloristic definition of "ballad" is based on what the word meant in rural districts where such songs were collected (on both sides of the Atlantic), but in the meantime the word was still being used in popular culture, and it eventually evolved into the Michael Bolton defintition. So there's no use denying that the word means both things, but we can choose to agree on which meaning we intend, and usually in folk circles we choose the folkloristic definition.

To be even more technical, the field of folklore recognizes that "telling a story" is not an absolute quality, and that songs therefore exist on a continuum between pure reporting of action and pure emotion. Ballads are ones where, in the words of one great scholar, "action presides over sentiment." The other songs would be various types of lyric songs, counting games, etc, etc. This means that what counts as a ballad is indeed a judgement call, expecially on some of the more overwrought broadside texts which have both action and copious sentiment. "Streets of Laredo" and its family ("Unfortunate Rake," etc) are recognized as ballads by some, lyric laments by others; and confusingly, individual texts of this song may be more ballad-like or more lyric-like than others. It's a messy world, and trying to divide up the real world of human expression into discrete genres is hard to do.

Sorry for the technical stuff folks, but I AM a trained folklorist! Gotta use that knowledge somewhere!

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08 Jan 04 - 03:04 PM (#1088873)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Narrative ballad" is clumsy, but it means that discussions don't get diverted into sterile debates about definitions.

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09 Jan 04 - 12:54 AM (#1089207)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: dick greenhaus

Cultural relativism doesn't work worth a damn in language. If you can't agree on the meaning of a word, stop using it! If anyone wants to discuss ballads and doesn't mean narrative songs, please stop discussing ballads until you find a word that describes what you want to discuss.

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09 Jan 04 - 01:54 AM (#1089217)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Stilly River Sage

Thanks for the analysis, Nerd. I've dipped into folklore in my scholarship when comparing literature with Ethnographic materials, and came to the same conclusion regarding "myth" vs "myth" and the rest. It makes perfect sense to apply what amounts to the science of folklore to folk-music-lore.

For clarification or illustration purposes, one might look at the line from opera to operetta to musical theater. All are legitmate musical entertainment, but there are degrees of difference in training, performance, song vs spoken word, etc. We (I hope) understand that Fidelio and Oklahoma are entirely different creatures even while both accomplish storytelling tasks.

SRS

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09 Jan 04 - 09:53 AM (#1089385)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge

I `ad that Pete Seeger in my cab once. `e said `ed just come from a recording session. I asked if `ed just done a load of ballads? `e said "Nah, I just finished an LP and I`m calling it STORY SONGS". I reckons `es got it about right. I got a copy in doors. Theres a song about a woman `itching up `er skirts or something.

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09 Jan 04 - 12:56 PM (#1089513)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: PoppaGator

Kevin -- is "Rosie" based on a true story? If it was in the news in the UK, I missed it here in the US.

If so, good job.

If not, *really* good job -- it certainly rings true.

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09 Jan 04 - 12:59 PM (#1089516)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: PoppaGator

One more thing: want my "example of a good one" [modern ballad]?

"The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll"

That is, if early pre-rock Dylan is still new enough to be considered "modern."

Needless to say, McGrath's composition brought Zimmerman's earlier piece to mind.

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09 Jan 04 - 01:45 PM (#1089549)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Black Rosie" - not a factual story, but one put together from different stories about things that have happened.

Plenty of cases of black women being imported as servants without papers and being effectively used as slaves and running away, and being frightened to get help, with good reason so far as official helping agencies are concerned.

There've been oil-rig disasters, of course, most notoriously the Piper Alpha disaster in 1988 in which 167 people died. There have been cases where, after the death of a man in an industrial accident, the fact that the women he was living with was an illegal immigrant has come to life, and she's been deported. And people faced with deportation or having their kids taken away have been known to kill themselves and even their children. This site includes cases of people killing themselves to avoid deportation.

So, no, it's not factual, but it's true to the facts. It could have happened. I started telling a story, and followed Rosie, and that's how it ended up.

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10 Jan 04 - 06:38 PM (#1090154)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: Susanne (skw)

Among the best writers of modern ballads (ie songs whose primary purpose is to tell a story) is James Keelaghan. His Cold Missouri Waters has been mentioned above, but there's also Glory Bound, Small Rebellion, Kiri's Piano, Hillcrest Mine and Abraham.

Another is Brian McNeill - just listen to his 'Back o' the North Wind' CD, which has some stunning songs.

I'm also happy to include Judy Small, as someone suggested.

Maybe these aren't ballads in the sense of Child, in that they include reflection - but that may be the modern element about them!

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10 Jan 04 - 08:27 PM (#1090231)
Subject: RE: modern ballads
From: akenaton

Got to agree with Russ ...Most of Richard thompsons songs could be classed as ballads.Story, emotion ,moral, honesty.
Thompson is definitely the best modern british writer,and what a guitarist....Ake

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