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15 Jan 04 - 07:50 PM (#1093720) Subject: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Amos Long ago, a great idea sparked the beginning of the most wonderful experiment in human history -- the trial of tolerance under law and a nation founded on individual rights and liberty as senior docrtrines. Though very bumpy and rough, the experiment -- along with a lot of natural advantages -- gradually built great prosperity in this country. More than its commercial success, it was the pride of its citizens that it had this core respect for self-determination, a more rational way of organizing a government, a better way of life. There are numerous anecdotes surfacing of late which point ot the interesting possibility that this bright light of sanity has been dramatically subdued if not doused. Here is one such story concerning the decline of our scientific research community under current law. Another recent tale of a Canadian citizen nabbed in the US and then exported to Syria, where he was tortured, was posted elsewhere on the Cat and int he news. An extremely dramatic tale of a nation subjected to draconian interference in the name of security is found in this story from Salon. These are the worst horror stories of individual madness magnified by the amplifying power of a government caught of in the throes of obsession and paranoia. While I can understand individual pain and individual anger in the wake of the 9-11 attacks, I feel we are making a profound error if we institutionalize those reactions and gradually bring the nation as a whole into the mire of insanity. There are not many bastions of individual freedom on the planet, you know. Your remarks are welcome. A |
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15 Jan 04 - 09:33 PM (#1093779) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Q (Frank Staplin) Thanks, Amos, for your well-thought out post. For many years, the United States was the destination for the best and brightest. Years ago, when I was at school, fellow students came from all over. My school was strong in the sciences and engineering. I remember particularly classmates from the Middle East, most supported by grants from their governments. Some of these students remained to become citizens, others returned home to teach American ways of doing things- but all that was gained has been lost. Since that time, I believe U. S. policies have been largely responsible for the growth of anti-American governments and the alienation of the majority of peoples in that part of the world. Failure of the United States to recognize the valid aspirations of Middle Eastern peoples has led to frustration, hatred and the growth of actions against it. Roadblocks put in the way of citizens of other nations, such as those from China, Brazil and other Latin American countries, are further contributing to the isolation of the United States. Nations such as China and India are developing centers of excellence in technology as they struggle to succeed. I am afraid that in the future the U. S. will be hard-pressed to maintain its position. |
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16 Jan 04 - 03:32 AM (#1093904) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: The Fooles Troupe The US has a long term reputation of being Xenophobic - not just isolationist. An individual swinging between Xenophobia & Meglomania is often considered psychotic... :-) Robin |
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16 Jan 04 - 01:57 PM (#1094311) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: M.Ted A lot of US colleges and universities have very high percentages of foreign students, particularly in graduate programs--they bring an amazing amount of money with them, which they spend in the communities where they study. A few years back, a professor in Madison did extensive research, and discovered that, excluding tuition, the foreign students pumped more than $200 million per year into the local economy -- Canada, Australia, and the UK have developed agressive student recruiting programs because they've seen the benefits, and were drawing significant numbers away from the US before all this--this is just going to cut into the enrollments even more--good for them, but bad for a lot of a lot of American college towns--the current administration could care less, because even in Texas, college folk lean liberal-- |
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17 Jan 04 - 05:15 AM (#1094733) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: GUEST Strange, I thought the United States was actually founded on genocide... |
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17 Jan 04 - 10:21 AM (#1094831) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: GUEST,Boab The return of G. W. Bush to the White house will signal to the world that a] as far as the American people are concerned, all truth, like the returning coffins from Iraq and Afghanistan, is being shrouded in deepest darkness, or b]the American nation is indeed going mad! |
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17 Jan 04 - 10:50 AM (#1094846) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Little Hawk Depends on how you look at it, GUEST. The USA was founded on both noble and vicious concepts...fresh new ideas about the equality and natural rights of men (if not women)...said ideas having been largely inspired by and borrowed from the Native people whom the genocide was practiced upon. New ideas about representative government as opposed to old bloodline monarchies...said representation being restricted to wealthier white males, of course. A vibrant spirit of mercantile expansion which rapidly built a tremendously effective and aggressive society...which has been a severe peril to its nearer and farther neighbours ever since. It all depends what angle you observe it from, but for the time when it occurred it was a pretty progressive movement. Still, I like Canada's line of social-philosophical development a lot better. It's much more peaceful. And that speaks well for the British tradition...a monarchy which transformed itself rationally and peacefully into a parliamentary democracy. It's a pity King George IIIrd was such an incompetent putz or there might never have been an American Revolution. My personal opinion is that the USA has always been a bit mad. It was born out of conflict, and it persists in conflict. "the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air" Never has there been a great nation with a more aggressive martial spirit. - LH |
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17 Jan 04 - 11:02 AM (#1094856) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Amos My personal opinion is that the USA has always been a bit mad If the time ever comes, LH, when our beloved northern neighbor finds itself under attack by rabid dictatorial fascist bastards, let us hope then that you can find a little of that American madness to come to your aid. Assuming, of course, that we have not already fallen into the clutches of such ourselves, God willing. A |
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17 Jan 04 - 02:19 PM (#1094967) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: M.Ted Like anyone is gonna want to invade Canada, Amos--well, except for us-- |
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17 Jan 04 - 04:06 PM (#1095026) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Amergin there is little or no difference from the birth of the US from many other countries...nor is there any difference between the genocidal practises of the US and any other country upon the face of this earth...that includes Britain, Australia, Canada...and even the American Indians themselves... |
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17 Jan 04 - 05:05 PM (#1095066) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: GUEST,JTT I'd have to disagree, Amergin. In most European countries there were invasions, and there was killing, but not the huge land-grab that happened en masse in the US. |
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17 Jan 04 - 05:48 PM (#1095099) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Metchosin I don't know JTT, seems to me the Spanish and the Portuguese did pretty well for themselves in South and Central America and Cecil Rhodes was no piker either. |
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17 Jan 04 - 08:28 PM (#1095211) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: The Fooles Troupe In Australia, we have lots of foreign full fee paying students. Some of them train as doctors. We have the case of one Malaysian doctor, who will soon be forced to leave off working as a doctor in our understaffed public health system, as she is Malaysian, and her work permit is due to expire. Madness! |
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17 Jan 04 - 10:16 PM (#1095266) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Little Hawk The only direction I could conceivably anticipate such an attack emanating from, Amos, IS the USA, which is well on its way toward being governed by "dictatorial fascist bastards". It's happened once already, in 1812...but that was a long time ago, and we had the good luck to mount an effective defense. Otherwise, much of what is now Canada would BE part of the USA. However, given all the valuable water and other resources we have up here I have not the slightest doubt that Uncle Sam would RUSH to our aid instantly, were anyone else to try physically occuping Canada. Not a worry in the world about that, I can assure you. It doesn't matter what we say that pisses off Americans...the USA would be there in force the next day with B-52's, tanks, and whatever else it took. Self-interest is a powerful motivator. Anyway, I basically am in sympathy with your original post. I was just offering some qualifying comments, in regards to what that GUEST said. I understand that as an American you are committed to faith in your own country and its destiny. That's natural. As a Canadian, I am committed to my country and its destiny, and my country is itself a bastion of freedom entirely worth defending. There are a number of others too....perhaps more of them than you have implied. The USA does not hold a patent on freedom or justice. - LH |
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18 Jan 04 - 12:12 AM (#1095309) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Amos Bloody good thing, or the technology would be lost forever! A |
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18 Jan 04 - 12:59 PM (#1095601) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Little Hawk Ummm...well, I guess. (?) :-) I think we should retitle this thread: RE:Politics:Amos Goes Mad Slowly (chuckle) |
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18 Jan 04 - 08:50 PM (#1095898) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Amos Well, LH, I don't think you are in a position to judge on either topic. Fortunately! A |
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18 Jan 04 - 09:35 PM (#1095922) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Amos Back to the far more compelling issue, the following article in the NY Times documents a glimmer of sanity in the form of the Supreme Court agreeing to hear serious questions about the Bush Administration's free-wheeling interpretation of legal rights for citizens. New York Times Article This is actually a constitutional crisis in the making, I would guess. A |
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22 Jan 04 - 01:10 PM (#1098841) Subject: RE: Folklore: A Nation Goes Mad Slowly From: Metchosin Amos, if you believe American liberties are in jeopardy, the following article from and concerning the Ottawa Citizen will further explain why I posted in another thread, that I believe that American citizens might have a better time of getting to the bottom of the Arar case which you referred to in your top post . We in Canada may be farther along the road to a police state than the US ever dreamed itself to be. The following happened the day before Canadian citizen, Maher Arar, was to file his suit against Ashcroft for his deportation to Syria and why I believe, as I always have, that the Freedom of the Press in Canada is in Serious Jeopardy.. |