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Tune Req: poverty knocks

21 Jan 04 - 05:05 AM (#1097690)
Subject: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: stevethesqueeze

hi folks

I am a relatively new member of Mudcat and am not always able to get the thing I want due to ignorance. i have found the lyrics of the song Poverty Knocks quite easiliy but I dont know if the music is available anywhere either on the mudcat system or elsewhere on the web. Any advice?


21 Jan 04 - 05:22 AM (#1097696)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: The Borchester Echo

Lyrics and MIDI of Poverty Knock (not 'knocks') are in in the DT. Just type this in the box at the top right.


21 Jan 04 - 05:30 AM (#1097698)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: Geoff the Duck

Steve. One of the reasons a lot of us came to the Mudcat Cafe originally was that it is the home of the Digital Tradition, a database of traditional and more recent folk song. At the top left of the forum page is a box which says "Lyrics & Knowledge Search". Go to this box and type in "poverty knock" without the quote marks, then click the search button. You will get a page of results. The first results will be where (or if) the words you entered have been found in the Digitrad song collection. The second list will be where the reference has appeared in mudcat threads.
In this case, the song appears in Digitrad, so click on the blue clicky link and it will take you to the song. At the bottom of that page, below the lyric it reads :-

@work @poverty
filename[ POVKNOCK
TUNE FILE: POVKNOCK
CLICK TO PLAY
DC

There is a tune file, which plays as a MIDI when you click on the blue link which says CLICK TO PLAY.

The tune it plays is NOT quite the tune I know for the song, but it is close enough if you don't know the way it is sung in Yorkshire and Lancashire.

Thus endeth the first lesson ;+
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.)


21 Jan 04 - 05:34 AM (#1097700)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: stevethesqueeze

thank you boys

stevethesqueeze


21 Jan 04 - 05:37 AM (#1097702)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: The Borchester Echo

Oh, yes. The search box shifts about, doesn't it? Never noticed that before!


21 Jan 04 - 08:43 AM (#1097771)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: Geoff the Duck

Steve - If you are still checking this thread - just a few tips and pointers.
The Digital Tradition (Digitrad / DT) has been compiled by volunteers, often from lyrics supplied by members or visitors to Mudcat. This leads to some problems. There can be mistakes and inconsistencies within the Digitrad. Some lyrics are incomplete, some are mis-typed, others were supplied by a source which has misheard a lyric or word (search for "Mondegreen" in the forum for an interesting read) or got verses in the wrong order. The volunteers who work on the Digitrad continue to attempt to identify and correct these, but some always slip through the net.
Searching for a particular song can be difficult, because people spell a particular name in different ways, so your search for "Molly" doesn't find songs where it has been spelt "Mollie" (A search for "Poverty knocks" doesn't find the song in the Digitrad, whereas a search for "poverty" or for Knock" finds the song, but also about 70 other unrelated songs also).
If you can't find a song in the Didtrad, It might stil be there. That is the time to do what you have done - ask the forum. You will usually get a polite and helpful response for a genuine request. Some members take great satisfaction in finding something obscure, and many are very well informed about the origins and variants of songs.
Quack!
GtD.


21 Jan 04 - 08:09 PM (#1098349)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: The Fooles Troupe

Have worked this one up on the piano accordion, in a real hard rocking version... great tune. One of the few tunes I can do from memory.

Robin


22 Jan 04 - 11:35 AM (#1098751)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: nutty

This site is complementary to the Digital Tradition and presents tunes in different formats.

If you want the dots to Poverty Knock CLICK HERE


29 May 06 - 07:35 PM (#1749715)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: GUEST

Hi Steve,

I noticed that you had the lyrics to Poverty Knocks and wondered, could you possibly send them to me?

I am on [e-mail and phone deleted] if you need to call me.

Would be much obliged.

Many thanks and all the best

Tom Stewart


29 May 06 - 08:14 PM (#1749730)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: nutty

Tom .... you will notice by the date this thread is over 2 years old, so Steve is not likely to reply to your request. If you click on the link that I posted above you can access both the words and the tune.


29 May 06 - 08:28 PM (#1749731)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: The Fooles Troupe

It should be noted that the internet is a 'self help' place, if you want information about something, you usually get it yourself from the locations either mentioned by someone else, or those which your own searches reveal, unless it is a physical object.

Also, it has become so common for 'address harvesters' to ask people to send stuff which will reveal their email addresses, that experienced people will mostly nowadays just ignore such requests - however some people new to the internet may be very trusting - at first (until they have been around a while). Of course, more people are 'new to the internet' these days, and may not be aware of the above, but it can still be the case that their (unfortunately) naive request might be misinterpreted as 'address harvesting.'

Anyway, in most cases for musical related requests at this place, the info people request is most often already posted somewhere here, usually a few posts above in the very same thread in which the 'info request' is made (if not in another thread which judicious use of the Search Engine here will reveal), or someone else will post the info that they know, or a link to where it may be found elsewhere, if and when it is discovered.


30 May 06 - 04:23 AM (#1749870)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: Ruston Hornsby

I did hear from somebody a few years ago that the original(?)tune for Poverty Knock echoed the sound of the shuttle on the loom in a mill. I have heard it performed as such - though I have to admit to a preference for a more melodic take on it.


30 May 06 - 05:54 AM (#1749905)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: Nigel Parsons

I've sent "Guest:Tom Stewart" the link he needs from above.
I've also put a request in the Help forum that the e-mail address could now be removed

CHEERS
Nigel


30 May 06 - 06:30 PM (#1750295)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: Chris Cole

Steve
If you're going to sing this song, please take your inspiration from Jim Moray and portray the clawing poverty associated with the lyric and please don't make it a happy clappy all join in stylee song often encountered in Northern Folk clubs.
Thanks


31 May 06 - 12:00 PM (#1750650)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: r.padgett

This song has a rythmic metre and the knocking is part of the song

Not sure how Jim Moray sings it and some versions are not in keeping to my mind!

The majority of the Northern ones I have heard are in my opinion most apt and not 'happy clappy' whatever you mean so I dont know what you are alluding to pudlover!

Put together by Tommy Daniels from Dewsbury/Batley and assisted by Dorothy Fawthrope who helped him remember the verses

These verses and tune can be found in Bert LLoyds, Songs in England (or similar) long out of print

Best recorded version sung by Roy Harris

Ray


31 May 06 - 04:04 PM (#1750750)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout

Jim Moray's version put the song into a minor key, and did take some of the "rumpeta-rumpeta" exhilaration out of it, but its still got the loom rhythm in it.
Like a lot of his other song interpretations, he's trying to really "be" the protagonist, in his exhaustion etc.
It's not a happy song.
However, neither r.padgett nor the original enquirer on this thread will be able to find the J. Mo version unless he/she has access to the BBC Young Folk Award tape of 2001/2, 0r a long-sold out E.P.
I can't remember where he (J Mo) first learnt the song and whether it was a c.d. or live version.


31 May 06 - 04:13 PM (#1750757)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: r.padgett

Pete Coe perhaps?


31 May 06 - 08:50 PM (#1750880)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: GUEST,Rumncoke

When I visited an old weaving shed, now a museum they turned on one of the looms for a few seconds, and the rhythm is exactly that of the tune I know for this song.

The sounds are the slap and hit if a flying shuttle being batted from one side to the other of the shed of the loom and the change of the - thing which holds the warp, can't think if the name, to select the correct threads for the weave.

I have heard it sung 'da de de dah de de dah' which turns it into a dirge - it should be sharp and hard, and unrelenting.

It is odd that all the recordings are by men - it is a woman's song. The Gaffer (manager) and Tuner (engineer) would have been men, and the Overlookers (supervisers) too, but the workers would have been women or girls. There was much disapproval of a man who might be unmarried, having authority over perhaps 20 to 30 young, unmarried women.


01 Jun 06 - 11:22 AM (#1751016)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: nutty

The tune I sing is modal and very sympathetic with the words


01 Jun 06 - 08:24 PM (#1751387)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: Malcolm Douglas

The DT midi is an accurate transcription of Tom Daniels' tune as published in various places, but the lyric isn't. No source, unfortunately, is credited for either. Note that the first part of the tune goes with the chorus, the second part with the verse. I expect that the DT lyric is from someone's memory or from a revival recording; it also contains mis-spellings, mis-hearings and careless omissions. Mary Humphreys posted a much better transcript (although it contains some typos) in thread  Origins: Poverty Knock.

The original tune has been 'regularised' by folk club performers over the last 40 years, becoming more sing-song and predictable. There's also been a ghastly tendency to turn it into a jolly singalong thing, punctuated by handclaps (rather in the same fashion as the more crass arrangements of The Wild Rover). I recall seeing Martin Carthy and Leon Rosselson sing it with the time signature modified so that the audience couldn't clap along, but actually had to listen to the words.


02 Jun 06 - 07:37 AM (#1751586)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: Dave Hanson

Pete Coe does it to a different tune than usual, to stop people doing the clapping bits, this is a better version.

In a short film about Martin Carthy from the BBC Countryfile series a few years ago, Martin remarked about this song that the clapping bits turned a cry of pain into a joke.

eric


02 Jun 06 - 08:54 AM (#1751633)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: r.padgett

Well I dont necessarily agree to anything about the bloody knocking ~ makes it more realistic to my mind!!


Do what you want with it then, but dont claim any divine right whoever you are whether your Martin Carthy or Pete Coe or Jim Moray or even their fans!!

How you arrange things is up to you and if you want your fans to act in whatever way you want fine ~ I may or may not like it but dont dare tell me what i do or do not like

Thanks
Ray


03 Jun 06 - 01:42 AM (#1752040)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: Dave Hanson

Ray, the song is onomatopoeic, the pov er ty pov er ty knock rhythm representing the sound of the old dobbie loom, NOT the knock knock bit at the end of the line that stupid morons tap on their guitar or the table or sing along with.

The song is from Tommy Daniel of Batley, West Yorkshire, who learned it at the start of the last century, at his first mill on leaving school.

eric


03 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM (#1926022)
Subject: RE: Tune Req: poverty knocks
From: r.padgett

Sorry eric got it on good authority this New Year that the knocks at the end are authentic and what Tommy did to simulate the sound of the looms

Also found that Poverty Knockers was a term used in Huddersfield for the women who looked after the looms

And Poverty poverty knocks not knock!!

Also seems it is Tommy Daniel not Daniels, so there you go

Keep knocking!!

RaY