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21 Jan 04 - 08:23 AM (#1097760) Subject: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: VIN Recently saw the film 'Master & Commander' (which i thought was excellent) and was wondering whether the singing of songs (shanties) was not allowed on Royal Navy ships whilst actually working, as the only shanties sung seemed to be when the crew were relaxing. Were actual working songs only sung on merchant ships? Also, when was the word 'Larboard' replaced by 'Port'? |
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21 Jan 04 - 08:25 AM (#1097762) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: GUEST,MMario My understanding is that working shanties were not allowed on RN ships as they suppossedly led to a lack of discipline. this could be totally an 'urban rumour' but it is what I have always been told. |
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21 Jan 04 - 08:57 AM (#1097776) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: GUEST,Santa My understanding is that shanties are working songs: songs sung by sailors off duty are forebitters. Presumably even if the same song. Also, the Navy's ships used music (possibly from the marine band?), rather than song, to synchonise the working. So you might have had a drum beat to pace the hauling, pumping etc. |
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21 Jan 04 - 09:01 AM (#1097778) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: Leadfingers Shanties as work songs were only used on Merchant Ships. The Royal Navy usually had a Fiddler to provide the rythm for Capstans, pumps, sheets, etc on their vessels. As posted above songs sung 'off watch' were called Forebitters. |
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21 Jan 04 - 09:24 AM (#1097789) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: curmudgeon Al work on Royal Navy vessels was done to the bos'n's pipe. |
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21 Jan 04 - 10:06 AM (#1097833) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: GUEST,LIGHTER Sources agree that shantying was forbidden in the Royal Navy. My impression is that it was likewise prohibited in the USN. Does anyone know for sure? |
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21 Jan 04 - 10:13 AM (#1097841) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: Amos WOuldn't what the men to go around organizing themselves, would we? What would be left for the orsifers tuh do then? A |
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21 Jan 04 - 10:21 AM (#1097849) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: manitas_at_work According to Stan Hugill (I think) there was always so much spare labour on a navy ship that shanties weren't necessary to encourga ethe extra effort needed. |
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21 Jan 04 - 11:00 AM (#1097878) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: VIN Ta for that, but how about larboard to port then or does larbourd mean summat else? |
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21 Jan 04 - 11:47 AM (#1097931) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: SeanM Another aspect of shantying that I have oft heard in relation to the RN ban... Sound carries well across water. VERY well. If you are in unfriendly territory (or even in neutral water), you might not want 40 blokes yelling "HUH!" in unison every couple minutes. It'd be rather recognizeable in ways that normal ship creaking and even higher pitched noises like pipes or small drums (that won't carry as far) would not be. Of course, there's no documentation on this that I've ever seen. Just several references that tend to conflict with each other. Apocryphal references, ahoy! M |
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21 Jan 04 - 12:34 PM (#1097971) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: Charley Noble According to THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA, P.466: "During the early years of the 19th century the term larboard began to give away to port as a helm order in order to avoid confusion with the similar sounding starboard, and the change was made official in 1844." Hope that is helpful. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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21 Jan 04 - 12:58 PM (#1097989) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: dick greenhaus I've always wondered about stamp-and-go shanties like "Drunken Sailor". Obviously required a large crew--which suggests Naval vessels. Anybody have any info? |
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21 Jan 04 - 01:16 PM (#1098010) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: GUEST Stan Hugill says that sailors on naval ships were often nicknamed "Johnny Haul Taut". Simply because they were not allowed to talk whilst working? As it has been mentioned before, the work setting sail, raising the anchor etc., was done to the rhythm of drums and fifes played by the marines, or a lone fiddler perhaps? |
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21 Jan 04 - 02:00 PM (#1098052) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: Santa I have heard that the Napoleonic wars caused such a shortage of merchant sailors that many of the previous sea shanties were lost. This seems, to me, too far in advance of the collectors to be convincing. |
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21 Jan 04 - 02:28 PM (#1098078) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: wysiwyg LOL! Just speaking as an outsider who doesn't know a damn thing about shanties, I gotta tell ya--- finding out they weren't allowed on Navy ships is about as huge (to me) as it would be to not know that spirituals were sung by slaves! Like, it's a really big mindf*ck! "???????????????" So, it's good to know it now! ~S~ |
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21 Jan 04 - 02:37 PM (#1098087) Subject: RE: Folklore: Sea shanties & things From: Uncle_DaveO GUEST said: Stan Hugill says that sailors on naval ships were often nicknamed "Johnny Haul Taut". Simply because they were not allowed to talk whilst working? What connection would the words "Johnny Haul Taut" have to do with not talking? Dave Oesterreich |