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01 Feb 04 - 12:04 PM (#1106577) Subject: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Alice It seems most people don't pay that much attention to primary politics. This year, with so many new people in Dean's grassroots movement and such a loud media buzz, there is more awareness yet not much understanding of the primaries. The candidate who gets the largest number of votes in a state primary does not get all of the delegates. Actually, Dean leads with the delegate count. Dean gained 15 delegates from Iowa and New Hampshire, 114 Super Delegates have pledged their support to Governor Dean, and he leads the other candidates with a total at this point of 129 delegates. Dean is still stronger than Kerry in the grassroots support of voters in all 50 states who worked through 2003 and continue to work in an unconventional way to organize themselves and support their candidate. Kerry does not have the massive volunteer organization or the numerous small donor support that Dean has. Dean's grassroots campaign support is the largest in history, with over 627,000 US citizens signed up to support him. More than 186,000 Americans supporting Dean meet every first Wednesday of the month in every state and on six continents. No candidate has organized such deep and growing support in the history of American politics. Kerry can mortgage his house, but Dean is gaining his goal of one million Americans giving $100 in donations to challenge George Bush's wealthy donors. The number of contributors is over 320,000 people. The average contribution is now just over $100 total. Only 3400 people have contributed the maximum of $2000. Thus, the campaign can be sustained even if no new donors join. More than one-third of the donors joined the campaign AFTER NEW HAMPSHIRE. The media wants to choose the Democratic candidate by spinning the negatives and annointing the poll leader. Look at the strength of support that Dean has to beat Bush, not at what the pundits on the tv networks say. The candidate that goes up against Bush will need the financial support that Dean has, and Kerry has not, to gain the White House. I am incredibly inspired by all the small donors who stepped up and gave their hard earned dollars to support an "outsider" candidate who spoke his mind and stood up to the Iraq decision. They are committed supporters, 55% giving more than once to the campaign. More people are joining Dean's campaign every day, giving what they can from each paycheck. The power of those people who at one time felt powerless is the essence of what Dean says when he tells people to "take their country back". We used to sit by while the parties set their candidates up on the chess board and played out their campaign games. Now, with DEAN, average citizens have gotten involved, and with their dollars, time, effort, and hope, have created a block of power that the pundits don't understand and the Party insiders (like the DLC) fear. The average citizens behind Dean are affecting the campaign in ways that the insider puppet masters did not expect or want. They don't want the power taken away from them... they want to select the next president. Examine Dean's record, his support, and his real stand in the race, leading in the number of delegates. www.montanafordean.com Alice |
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01 Feb 04 - 12:14 PM (#1106579) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: GUEST Dean is fortunate to have support from those like you Alice. I don't like Dean, but good luck. |
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01 Feb 04 - 12:36 PM (#1106593) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Bill D it would help the US if the system were designed to allow everyone to support the candidate they prefer, instead of jumping early to perceived 'electable leaders' based on the votes of a few folks in Iowa and N. Hampshire. Since 1972, we have been moving towards the entire race being decided by money, media, and 'image', rather than issues and competence. I noticed the headline in todays Wash. Post said "Kerry Strong in All 7 Races On Tuesday" ...not "Dean says X" or "Edwards supports Y" or "Clark offers plan to.." ........What kind of system do we have when POLLS are the news? The media is putting images into our heads of 'inevitability' that will influence people to "get on the bandwagon". I would rather see ALL primaries held in May or June on the same day, so my vote in Maryland might have some value. The candidates could choose where they wanted to campaign most. |
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01 Feb 04 - 02:25 PM (#1106636) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Alice Another reason to support Dean - If Kerry, Edwards, or Clark get the nomination, then Hillary is poised to take the VP spot. Certain loss for the Dems if that happens. The country will never vote for Hillary to be back in the White House. Here is something interesting regarding the Democratic Clintonite fear that Dean will take away their power at the center of the party money and influence. This article describes the chain of money and command the Clintons still control: -------------------------------------------------- http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004632 Clinton & Clinton To maintain their hold on the party, Howard Dean had to be destroyed. BY R. EMMETT TYRRELL JR. Sunday, February 1, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST quote in part... "........There are Democrats who want to loosen the Clintons' grip on their party. That grip has always been good for the Clintons but bad for the party. Will front-runner Mr. Kerry be the next victim of the Clintons' political research teams? Possibly not--he is the Washington insider that Mr. Dean is not.And it is not clear that he will be sailing into the summer convention with a great deal of brag and bounce. He may be limping in after still more primary battles. Then Hillary will make her grand entrance. With Mr. McAuliffe smiling from the podium her power will be vast. Possibly she will allow herself to be nominated to the No. 2 spot to assist her party in its moment of peril. Either way, Hillary and her husband will remain the Democratic powerbrokers for 2008. Or possibly just the powers..." ---------------- I saw McAuliffe on a PBS news show or CSPAN, can't remember which, and his disdain for Dean was obvious... his words regarding Dean were in general that McAuliffe and others were the center of the party and they didn't need new people (Dean grassroots) to tell them what to do. Gag me. Save us from the Clintons. Please. They would be the kiss of death, Shrub would be back again if Hillary is VP or seen to be behind the scenes controlling the nominee. The grassroots scares the DLC, and thus the attack ads paid for by Democrats to keep control away from Dean and his army of small donors. |
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01 Feb 04 - 02:31 PM (#1106640) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Thomas the Rhymer We have to tell the media to piss off... until we stand up to the media, and stop 'swallowing' the BS, nothing will change. The "Dean Scream" is a perfect example... As many of you musicians know, some microphones only pick up the immediate area in their vicinity... and have a 'high threshhold'... which is to say, that they exclude background noise. The effect? In a room full of shouting and cheering supporters? A man 'needlessly' shouting... an 'extremist' out to overwhelm the American people with incendiary dogma and dangerous revolutionary passion... a demagogue... In reality, however, Dean was loud in a very loud room... he was matching the volume of his supporters, and simply, totally appropriate... His supporters were loud and proud of it, and they are equally proud of of the man they support... Dean. ...who, by the way, is the product of a groundswell of support... and... the natural democratic response to the corporate media takeover that has 'American Freedom' (and world freedom for that matter) in a stranglehold. Can the American public tell the difference between propaganda and information? Gee, I sure hope so... ttr |
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01 Feb 04 - 07:07 PM (#1106836) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Nerd Thanks, guys! I've been defending Dean over on the "Kerry Takes NH" thread. But it's a good point that no-one "takes" a state. Here's an interesting fact. In a primary race with seven contenders, it is entirely possible to win the majority of delegates without winning any states at all. Yet, now that Kerry is the front runner, Terry Mac says "if you don't win a state by February 3rd, you should quit." Notice how he didn't say that when Dean was tops in the polls! The entire idea of momentum was invented by the press and the party to consolidate their own power as kingmakers. If the results of primaries were kept secret from the press, and all released on the same day when all the states had had their say, then everyone would vote for the candidate they liked the best, and "momentum" would not exist. The press creates momentum, and then the party tells us to vote on the basis of momentum. Polls and pundits take the people's power away. Don't fall for it! If you've ever supported Dean, stick with him and we will win! |
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02 Feb 04 - 11:53 AM (#1107360) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Nerd A roundup of Dean coverage from Salon.com: The Dean legacy Some journalists have been writing Howard Dean's political obituary since the night of the Iowa caucuses. Now others, including Salon's Scott Rosenberg, are taking stock of what Dean has contributed to politics and the Democratic Party, defunct candidacy or not. The comparison of Dean to a busted Internet startup only goes so far, Rosenberg writes. "At a time when too much of the Democratic party, and too many of its candidates, lay supine before the travesty of President Bush's policies, Dean used the Internet to punch a hole through the big-media blockade and get the true opposition message out: That Bush and his administration lied to America to start an unnecessary war, a war that has hurt rather then enhanced the nation's security. While other candidates hedged their bets, Dean spoke the truth, and when the mainstream media tried to marginalize his voice, the Net allowed the breadth and depth of the support for his message to be felt. Today, every Democratic candidate, including frontrunner John Kerry, embraces this position: They are all Deaniacs now." Newark Star-Ledger columnist John Farmer writes: "Dean has restored to the Democrat Party something its Washington wing had surrendered without a fight during the Bush years -- relevance. He got the party off its knees and back on its feet. He infused it with energy and a new interest among the public and the media. Who gave a damn about the Democrats before Dean came along?" And even the New York Times, skewered by Dean supporters for its treatment of their candidate, has a homage to Dean on A1 today, noting that "his mark on the party is unmistakable." |
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02 Feb 04 - 04:25 PM (#1107570) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Alice Today I got an email from our county Democratic party leader wishing he could attend another Dean Meetup as he had last summer. He has other commitments on Wednesday nights. He has admiration for the enthusiasm and involvement of the local Deaniac average citizens, otherwise not on the "inside" of local Democratic politics. We are people who are not at the Dem meetings and in the Dem social circles. The small group of same-old same old members of the party are kind of in awe of how many people have banded together here for Dean and become so active, compared to the support of all other Democratic campaigns they have observed. It can't be bottled. It is, as other Dean supporters will tell you, a result of the heartfelt sincere connection Dean has to people... the fact that he talks like a real person in speeches and interviews, not just the canned delivery of those used to ponitficating from the Congressional floor. He has the guts to be controversial when others talk around issues without saying anything that can be pinned down. There is something different about Dean that makes people connect to him. I think part of it is that he was a medical doctor, first, before being a politician. His genuine caring for people and his one on one manner of being in touch with humanity shines through. |
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02 Feb 04 - 05:05 PM (#1107604) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Thomas the Rhymer The Seattle PI said, on it's front page, that basically, the Dean campaign has spent all the money is collected last year, and that Dean himself said that if he doesn't win some tomorrow, he will probably give up. Is this true? ttr |
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02 Feb 04 - 08:28 PM (#1107758) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Alice No, tt, I don't think that report is true. The Dean web site alone has raised almost $2 million since New Hampshire. That does not include the money people are mailing in and pledging in monthly payments. There was a lot spent on tv ads for Iowa and NH, but the financial support is still there from those who have not given the maximum and many new supporters of the campaign that are coming on board every day. They have raised over $3 Million just in the last two weeks. The new campaign manager has addressed the campaign budget issues and they are going full speed ahead to the convention. More info is at www.blogforamerica.com |
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02 Feb 04 - 08:35 PM (#1107762) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Alice Roy Neel, Dean's new campaign manager, has posted the campaign strategy publicly for all to see: Where We Go From Here... |
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02 Feb 04 - 11:31 PM (#1107867) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: MarkS Wonder if Dean could get the majority of delegates but still loose the nomination. Naaaaah - that sort of thing can't happen in America. Mark |
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03 Feb 04 - 02:09 AM (#1107925) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Nerd ttr: I've been poking around the Seattle PI's website and I can't find the article you mention. Could you post a link, or if you have the paper version, post the headline? I'd like to read the article and see if it merits a letter to the editor. If they really said that, then that's a prime example of the ways the other candidates and the press are acting together, knowingly or unknowingly, to try to take Dean down. Dean has always said he would NOT quit after February 3rd. The reports of his having gone through all his money were always exaggerated; The claim was, he was down to 3 million dollars, but when the figures were released it was close to nine million. In fact, Dean still has more money than the other candidates, and the Kerry campaign began six million in debt. It's funny. The Seattle PI itself ran an AP article today that was accurate, saying Dean spent all but 8.5 million of his money. But its columnist Joel Connelly reported that all but 3 million has been spent. Neither article, however, claimed that Dean would quit after tomorrow, and I've never seen him quoted anywhere to that effect. It goes directly contrary to everything he says normally, and directly contrary to the strategy his manager posted (see Alice's link above). So as I said, please give us more details! |
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03 Feb 04 - 12:02 PM (#1108278) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Nerd Here's a good article defending Dean from conservative columninst Andrew Sullivan in Time: an excerpt: Dean offers, to purloin a phrase, a choice, not an echo. His pugnacity in defense of his liberal instincts is obviously genuine. After eight years of careful Clintonian positioning, it's refreshing. Compared with Kerry's packaged, tested, hollow rants against "special interests," Dean's straight talk is invigorating. He isn't haunted, as Kerry is, by the specter of Vietnam. Even the famous Iowa scream had more authenticity and fire than Kerry's labored recitation "Bring it on." Unlike Kerry, Dean has held a serious executive office — balancing budgets, reforming health care, innovating on civil rights. Kerry's undistinguished, flip-floppy Senate record is far less impressive. Is Dean too extreme? On the critical matter of national security, Dean has a more defensible record than Kerry. He backed the first Gulf War, which Kerry couldn't bring himself to do, and the Afghanistan war. His opposition to the Iraq campaign is less a function of knee-jerk isolationism or even left-wing pacifism than a pragmatic judgment about how to fight best. No, alas, he's no Joe Lieberman in the war on terrorism. But his character suggests far more backbone in foreign affairs than does Kerry's Hamlet-like anguish and spin. I don't see Dean as President caving in to Jacques Chirac. And Dean could also save the Democrats from a left-wing split. In 2000 Al Gore lost in part because of the far-left Ralph Nader challenge. Dean has managed to bring these voters back into the fold — without making any drastic policy commitments that could come back to haunt him. Kerry in comparison? Gore redux. (...) Would Dean nonetheless be buried in November? Maybe. But maybe not. Bush is vulnerable in many ways — on fiscal negligence, unseen problems in Iraq, corporate coziness. And Dean is a conviction politician. Like Margaret Thatcher, he may command the respect even of those who disagree with him. He once told the New Yorker, "I think the problem with the Democratic Party in general is that they've been so afraid to lose they're willing to say whatever it takes to win. And once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose." That's a brilliant analysis of what ails the Democrats — and it's why, even under Clinton, they saw their congressional power ebb and collapse. If Dean is a doctor, he's got the diagnosis dead right. |
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04 Feb 04 - 09:59 AM (#1109094) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Charley Noble Well, maybe I'll support Dean in the Maine caucuses on Sunday, but after last night and hearing about the latest Detroit Free press poll it does appear to be another forlorn hope. Charley Noble |
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04 Feb 04 - 11:18 AM (#1109172) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Nerd Charley, you should support the candidate you want to support. Don't change your mind due to a poll in another state. If we did this based on polls, rather than waiting for caucuses and primaries, Dean would already be the nominee. Less than ten percent of delegates have been chosen. Ninety percent of Democrats have yet to vote. Please don't let the conventional wisdom and the ten percent of early voters decide this crucial election. The Democratic establishment is telling us we'd be stronger if we united behind a single candidate early. I disagree. Kerry has not yet been thoroughly examined by the press or the people. He looks strong because nobody knows anything about him. For example, did you know that, according to his wife, he has violent nightmares in which he pounds on the walls until she thinks he will break the house down? That's what she told Rolling Stone. And when papers asked if he was still having these dreams, he lied and said no. Heinz Kerry corrected him, "and mimicked him having a flashback. 'Down, down, down!' she screamed." (The Guardian) Now, if the American people were spooked by the Dean scream, and by reports that he's "too angry to have his finger near the button," do you think the American people will relish having someone who has actual flashbacks and thinks he's in a war? How about if they're accompanied by violent behavior? I also know that everyone's saying he has to win because a poll claims he would beat Bush if the election were tomorrow. This almost always happens during primary season. The day after the 1988 convention, Dukakis led Bush by 16 points. It's meaningless. I'm not pointing this out to slam Kerry. I'm just saying that he's completely unknown to most people, and the press, including many of the right-wingers out there, are repeating the mantra that he's unbeatable. I think the way to pick a strong candidate is to let the press do their job of fairly examining EVERY candidate, and the people do THEIR job of voting for the one they like the best, not the one who looks like he might win somewhere else. If this is fought all the way to the convention, the victor will be stronger, not weaker, when the second place finisher endorses him. |
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05 Feb 04 - 11:41 AM (#1110010) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Hi Nerd, You say, "For example, did you know that, according to his wife, he has violent nightmares in which he pounds on the walls until she thinks he will break the house down? That's what she told Rolling Stone. And when papers asked if he was still having these dreams, he lied and said no. Heinz Kerry corrected him, "and mimicked him having a flashback. 'Down, down, down!' she screamed." (The Guardian) do you think the American people will relish having someone who has actual flashbacks and thinks he's in a war? How about if they're accompanied by violent behavior?" There's a large difference between having dreams and thinking he's in a war. Actually, this could be a good thing in that Kerry really knows what war is about. I'd rather have someone who really knows something about the horror of war leading the country than someone who votes for the bombing of Afghanistan or the Gulf War. Us leftist pacifists are out there. We are not knee-jerk as stated but have come to these conclusions through much soul searching and paying dues. I get the feeling that Deaniacs are in attack mode and are unwilling to listen to other opinions. While I like some things that Dean says, I think the Deaniacs are mischaracterizing this campaign by a kind of knee-jerk follow-the leader themselves. I'll make my position clear. I believe Dennis Kucinich articulates my political beliefs better than anyone running but doesn't have a chance to be president. I don't believe Dean can take on Bush on the issues of security. Frankly, I think the issue of security is another red-herring and I don't think it's the kind of thing the country should be concentrating on because real security is understanding why 911 happened in the first place, not a knee-jerk military response. I think that all of the negative criticsm of Kerry will be used by the Republicans at the next election. Instead of slamming other candidates, why don't the Dean people concentrate on the issues? I don't agree with Kerry on every issue but I believe it will be a thoughtful and un-angry approach that will ineveitably appeal to the American voters. It's a matter of style. I realize that this is open to interpretation. Some see Dean this way and others Kerry. But I will say this, the more Deaniacs slam Kerry, the more I believe he will win. Frank |
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05 Feb 04 - 12:52 PM (#1110074) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Nerd Actually, Frank, I kind of agree with you here. I don't think Kerry should be disqualified because of dreams or flashbacks. (I'm not sure they are only dreams, by the way. The Guardian used the term "flashback." But their interview was not transcribed in full, so it's hard to know what they were basing it on.) I DO think that the argument about his "electability," which is the main reason he is getting votes, is mainly the result of ignorance. No-one knows anything about him yet. If it is true, as the media are telling us, that concerns about Dean's being "angry" (which were mainly the product of media distortion anyway) hurt him enough to derail his campaign, then this should be a serious concern for Kerry's supporters and for "anyone but Bush" voters too. Kerry may well win the nomination, but we have to think about the General Election, too. If the media decide to jump on this story, which is already in the public record but not very widely reported, and which DOES make Kerry look like kind of a nut, I think he's doomed. This is not an "attack," in that I hope he'd survive such treatment, but I doubt it. (It may surprise you, by the way, that Kerry has always been my second choice for the nomination; now I am rethinking this and may wish to support Edwards if Dean should quit. But I fear we know too little about HIM, too). |
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05 Feb 04 - 03:47 PM (#1110154) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Hi Nerd, Glad we can agree on something. There is always something we can't know about elected officials. We are somewhat ignorant about all of them. I agree that the media will paint all kinds of pictures of the candidates. I believe that Kerry can be very articulate about his wartime. He has obviously done some work on himself so that he is no longer a victim of post-trauma. I don't think Kerry will appear to anyone to be a nut. He's come too far and has been successful. Nothing surprises me anymore. It's really hard to know all we need to know about any candidate so we really have to go on what information we receive and trust our own instincts about how we see the candidate's performances. A lot of what we decide might rest on our feelings about the candidate rather than having all the facts at our disposal. Frank |
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05 Feb 04 - 05:31 PM (#1110212) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: maire-aine I saw him speak in Royal Oak MI this afternoon. What a refreshing thing to hear someone simply be frank with his audience. If people could only hear him first-hand, instead of through the slanted voice of the media conglamorates, they'd know that he's the right guy to be President. But a thoughtful message needs more than a 10-second sound-byte. Michigan will have it's caucus on Saturday. I believe that Washington has one, too. And Wisconsin's is coming up. It's not over, by any means. I'm with Howard Dean all the way, and I'm with the Democratic nominee--whoever it is--in November 2004. Maryanne Dunmire |
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06 Feb 04 - 02:39 AM (#1110517) Subject: RE: BS: Dean leads in delegates after N.H. From: Nerd And I'm with Maryanne on this one! |