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03 Feb 04 - 11:37 AM (#1108245) Subject: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Steve Parkes There doesn't seem to be much variation in versions of the lyric in my experience, and a web search doesn't contradict that. Does this suggest it was originally a published song, by a known author, rather than a traditional anonymous song? There was a ship Davy Crockett, and the figurehead still exists in a museum in the US; I dare say there was a Captain Burgess too, which would date the song fairly accurately -- or at least give an earliest date. Any more info? |
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03 Feb 04 - 11:52 AM (#1108270) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Leadfingers Isnt this another 'Traditional' song that was actually written ( or possibly ) assembled by the Liverpool Spinners ? |
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03 Feb 04 - 12:02 PM (#1108279) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Malcolm Douglas It seems that only one example of the song was ever recorded from tradition, with all modern forms deriving from that. It was published in Doerflinger's Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman (1951); he got it from an American, Dick Maitland, who, while bosun on the General Knox around 1885, had learned it one night from a Liverpool man. The song rapidly became popular with revival singers. Roy Palmer (Boxing the Compass, 2001) gives Burgess' captaincy of the Davy Crockett as 1863 to 1874, and reasons that the song dates from that period or a little after. |
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03 Feb 04 - 12:30 PM (#1108317) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Ringer I've always thought that the words and the tune were ill-matched. This is the song of a sailor leaving his girl and his home, but the tune is more redolent of a tanked-up coachload of Rugby supporters. I was delighted to find recently that John Prentice evidently agrees with me, because he sings it to a beautiful new tune of his own which is beautifully well-matched to the longing that can be heard in the words. |
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03 Feb 04 - 12:38 PM (#1108326) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: JedMarum I heard a great , ripping, blue grass version of this song last year at the Tucson Folk Festival. The words/story had been Americanized, the band gave no explanation in their intro - and I suspect they had no idea where it came from. |
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03 Feb 04 - 12:45 PM (#1108334) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Steve in Idaho Hey Jed - they have a CD or tape with their version of it?? My little group does it bluegrassy, well I do anyway, but would love to hear their version - and we do tend to move the song along - Thanks steve |
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03 Feb 04 - 12:55 PM (#1108342) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: McGrath of Harlow "... the tune is more redolent of a tanked-up coachload of Rugby supporters." Only because that's the way people sing it. The tune can perfectly well be sung meditatively, to match the words, and, done that way, it matches them very well. |
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03 Feb 04 - 12:55 PM (#1108343) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Brakn Awhile back, in Liverpool, someone told me this was originally called the Leaving of Limerick. I will find out more. |
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03 Feb 04 - 01:11 PM (#1108355) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: JedMarum I don;t know if the Tucson folks have a recording. I don't remember who they are. When I played with Eammons Kitchen we had an up tempo, blue-grassy groove to the song - and it worked well for us. I've heard Danny Doyle do a lovely, soulful version of the song - on a live recording he made at O'Flaherty's in New Orleans. The whole record is wonderful, by the way. |
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03 Feb 04 - 01:15 PM (#1108360) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: alanww When I was in Mystic Seaport last October I looked up some info on the Crocket in their museum. Apparently it was lauched there on 18 October 1853 and John Burgess, who as Malcolm says was the captain, lost his life overboard off the River Plate on his last journey before retirement on 25 June 1874. Now that's tough luck! Any more useless facts, anyone? "And Burgess is the captain of her ...!" Alan |
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03 Feb 04 - 01:26 PM (#1108368) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Q (Frank Staplin) A little more in thread 17920, and chords. Leaving Liverpool The hull plan of the clipper Davy Crockett is at American Memory (Item 20, Search "Liverpool"). Notes say "Hull plans for the ship Davy Crockett. Lines drawn by Edson I. Schock from a model by Carl C. Culter." The plan is at Mystic Seaport and is part of "Westward By Sea." Not sure how it ties in, but the same notes say: "The Comet was a clipper ship built by George Greenman and Co. in 1853. She often sailed on the New York to San Francisco run but also made several voyages to Liverpool. Lost in 1899." Were the two ships built to the same hull, or was the Comet re-named? |
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03 Feb 04 - 01:37 PM (#1108378) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: McGrath of Harlow John Burgess...lost his life overboard..." In the light of the verse below (which isn't the one in the DT, but I think I've heard it more often), the question occurs, "Did he fall, or was he pushed?": "I have signed on a Yankee Clipper ship Davy Crockett is her name And Burgess is the Captain of her, He's a bastard, and the Mate's the same. |
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03 Feb 04 - 01:44 PM (#1108383) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Little Robyn Before we ever heard the Liverpool Spinners, I was singing the Bob Dylan modified version which is much more sentimental. Thank you Mr Zimmerman. Robyn |
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03 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM (#1108387) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Q (Frank Staplin) Two dates for the loss of the Davy Crockett, 1874 and 1899, at the same museum! Not that this has any bearing on the timing of the song's origin, except that the lyrics are post-1853. Not mentioned in either of the two books I have by Hugill. I have a feeling that Brakn may be at least partly correct- The Burgess-Davy Crockett lines added by someone after seeing material at Mystic. |
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03 Feb 04 - 01:53 PM (#1108389) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: the lemonade lady I always sing this in my head every time I have to leave Liverpool, and my Schantieman, and get on the train at Lime Street to go back to Bishop's Castle. (Actually the nearest station to BC is Craven Arms) 8-( Sal |
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03 Feb 04 - 02:13 PM (#1108408) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: DonMeixner I am aquainted with the family of John Burgess, the Captain of the Davy Crockett. I have seen the double lock dispatch box from the ship, several boarding passes and bills of laden from this ship. My friend Berta has significant documentation and artifacts from the ship itself. If any one who is interested will email me I'll be speaking to her this very afternoon and ask her if she would share any of this history outside the family. Don Meixner |
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03 Feb 04 - 02:20 PM (#1108413) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: alanww Q: I didn't say that the Crocket was lost in 1874, only that Burgess was lost overboard in that year. I have no info on what the fate of Crocket was, except that it made many trips from Liverpool to New York and then on to San Fransisco and back, which apparently took around 261 days each way! "And they say she's a floating shame!" Alan |
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03 Feb 04 - 03:09 PM (#1108448) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Malcolm Douglas I'd normally be quite dubious about claims for an Irish antecedent for a song like The Leaving of Liverpool (mainly on the grounds that people are always saying things like that, but rarely seem able to back it up), but, according to Dan Milner, the suggestion came from Tom Munnelly, who I'd expect to be reliable on that sort of thing. I've never seen or heard The Leaving of Limerick, though. Is anyone able to quote it? Any reference to a traditional source would be useful, too; revival recordings may be of little help unless they provide substantive information. I know that Deirdre Scanlan, for example, has recorded a song of that title; but does she say anything about it? |
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03 Feb 04 - 03:21 PM (#1108461) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Herga Kitty Ringer Yes, John Prentice does a lovely slow ballad version, and it's on his CD, the King's Shilling, but the melody is actually a harmony of the generally known tune. Kitty |
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03 Feb 04 - 05:30 PM (#1108545) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: McGrath of Harlow That's rather what I guessed, without hearing it. Changing the speed and the mood of a tune can easily make people think it's a wholly different tune. |
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03 Feb 04 - 05:38 PM (#1108553) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: dick greenhaus Like Rivers of Texas, Leaving of Liverpool is, for all purposes, a single-source song. There was a second source, for a somewhat different version, which Dick Swain played at a symposium at Mystic Sea Music Week a couple of years back, but everything any sings seems to be a re-working of Maitland's song. |
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03 Feb 04 - 06:26 PM (#1108580) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Malcolm Douglas So what was that second source? Do you recall details? |
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03 Feb 04 - 06:29 PM (#1108584) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Lighter Does anybody know for certain what Swain's source was? Hugill prints a version in his "Songs of the Sea." I'll put the words it in a separate thread right now. |
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03 Feb 04 - 06:38 PM (#1108590) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Malcolm Douglas Why a separate thread? This is the place to put it, surely? |
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03 Feb 04 - 06:52 PM (#1108603) Subject: Lyr Add: THE LEAVING OF LIVERPOOL (from Hugill) From: Lighter Stan Hugill published his version of the song in his last book, "Songs of the Sea" (1977)(all spellings sic): ^^ THE LEAVING OF LIVERPOOL (from Hugill) Fare-ye-well the Princess Landing Stage, River Mersey fare-ye-well. I am bound to Californaye-a. It's a place I know right well. CHO: So fare-ye-well, my own true love, When I return united we will be. It's not the leaving of Liverpool that grieves me, But me darling when I thinks of ye. I'm bound to California, By way of ol' Cape Horn, An' I bet that I will curse the day An' the hour that I was born. I've shipped in a Yankee clipper ship, Davy Crockett is her name. Captain Burgess he is tough, me lads, And the mate he's just the same. 'Tis me second passage with ol' Burgess, An' I think I knows him well. If a man's a sailor, he can get along, But if not, he's sure in hell. Fare-ye-well to Lower Frederick Street, Anson Place, and Parkee Lane. 'Tis a long, long time, me bucko boys, Ere I see you again. So fare-ye-well my own true love, Goodbye, my love, goodbye. 'Twill be a long, long time, my dear, But my darlin', don't ye cry. Hugill's tune is virtually identical to Maitland's, as printed by Doerflinger. Of the song itself, Hugill states merely that Maitland's was "the first version to be printed." There is no way to tell whether Hugill heard this somewhat modified and shortened text at sea, or whether - perhaps more likely - it was simply his own adaptation of what he saw in Doerflinger. BTW, versions containing the stanza beginning, "The sun is on the harbour, love..." appear to have originated with the Clancy Bros. and Tommy Makem, ca.1963. |
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03 Feb 04 - 06:54 PM (#1108605) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,Dolphin FACT The Leaving of Liverpool was collected by William Doerflinger from an old sailor who was a resident at Snug Harbor Staten Island New York. The is documentary evidence there to support this!!!! |
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03 Feb 04 - 07:04 PM (#1108613) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Gareth Hmmmm ! It all depends upon how it is sung The Spinners version, a rollicking pub/concert version as a love song. Other versions (I had a good tape untill some B****d torched my car) a contemplative ballad. Fact to be bourne in mind. The only hard and fast rule on ships names was only one name per port of registry thus we could have the "Davey Crocket" of New York, and the "Davey Crocket" of say Mobile. Scond fact. In the days when I had a free run of the Lloyds of London libuary and records section have now long gone. I am working from memory but the commercial life of a wooden hull was not that long. The 'Perils of the Sea', decay, wear and tear, and commercial reality saw to that. It is very possible that here were more than one "Davey Crocket" on the transatlantic run. Again from Memory the "Black Ball Line" existed. It is also worth holding in mind that many an Irishperson left for the 'New World' via Liverpool. I do not believe that Liverpool and Limerick were not interchangeble. Just the thoughts of a dilitante nautical historian Gareth PS On the Davey Crocket theme is there not a chanty involving Santa Anna ??? |
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03 Feb 04 - 07:10 PM (#1108621) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Blowzabella More than one Gareth, but I'm sure there are many more expert than me to give detail (I'm a fan but not an expert - not enough to put anything on the page) |
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03 Feb 04 - 11:21 PM (#1108766) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Liam's Brother William Main Doerflinger recorded "The Leaving of Liverpool" from two sailors, both in New York City. Dick Maitland's version is the one in Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman as Malcolm points out above. The second version was from Patrick Tayleur and that has not been published. Captain Tayleur's version is very much free form and indicates to me that, possibly, he never actually sang the song himself but heard others do so. He knew the story line but not the actual poetry of it. When I asked Bill about it, he simply said Captain Tayleur did not sing "The Leaving of Liverpool." Bill was a very kind, courtly man. I did not press him but I believe he was telling me that Captain Tayleur did not have a real grasp on the song and it was a matter not worth pursuing. To the best of my knowledge, Ewan MacColl was the first person to record "The Leaving of Liverpool" commercially. That's where I first heard it. It's a very nice rendition, slow and soulful. Lou Killen was one of the chorus singers at that session. Lou took up the song and he believes that Luke Kelly of the Dubliners, who was living in England at the time, probably heard it from him. Luke undoubtedly brought it to the Dubliners and the Clancy Brothers probably got it from them. Along the way, everything started to rhyme and "My darling when I think on you" became "My darling when I think on thee." Bob Conroy and I were guests at the Aonach Paddy O'Brien a few years back and sang "The Leaving of Liverpool" at a session. George Henderson, whose thoughts grace the Mudcat from time-to-time, was the moderator and asked Deirdre Scanlan to sing "The Leaving of Limerick" next. The melodies are very, very close and a number of similar themes occur in both songs. When I asked him later, Tom Munnelly told me that, like "The Leaving of Liverpool," "The Leaving of Limerick" (or "The Leaving of Ireland" as it's also known) is a very rare song. One sprang from the other. Bill Doerflinger was a lovely and very interesting man. You can read about him at Bill Doerflinger tribute. I sang "The Leaving of Liverpool" at Bill's memorial service. All the best, Dan Milner |
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04 Feb 04 - 12:29 AM (#1108799) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Little Robyn I've just refreshed the thread on Bob Dylan's version Robyn |
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04 Feb 04 - 04:34 AM (#1108887) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Malcolm Deirdre Scanlon's recording is the only one I know of. I have a copy (somewhere) but, if memory serves, she gives little detail on source - and doesn't print the lyrics. Like you, I would trust Tommy Munnelly's comments. If I can find his current email address, I'll drop him a note. Regards |
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04 Feb 04 - 04:36 AM (#1108888) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Steve Parkes The verse Now the tug is waiting at the Pierhead To take us down the stream, Our sails are loosed and our anchor[']s stowed, So I'll say fare thee well again. doesn't sound as though it quite fits; it doesn't sound I've always liked it sung rather slow and sad, like a real farewell for a two-year trip would be. It's a very good finishing-off song, especially as an encore to a more lively song. Steve |
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04 Feb 04 - 11:39 AM (#1109189) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,Chanteyranger BTW, the figurehead of the Davy Crockett is on exhibit in the museum at the park where I work, San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park. |
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04 Feb 04 - 01:31 PM (#1109290) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Melani Right, Chanteyranger. The one at Mystic is a bad copy of our original. Though I'm told Mystic is rather put out by our having the original, since the ship was actually built there. |
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04 Feb 04 - 07:08 PM (#1109552) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Liam's Brother Martin and Malcolm... Deirdre's version comes from a lady who lives in or just outside her town, Neanagh. The name Nora Butler springs to mind. I hope that's not wrong. My recollection of the conversation with Tom Munnelly is that "The Leaving of Limerick (or Ireland)" has been heard 4 times in Ireland. Three times in Munster (Tipperary once, Cork twice) and once at Malin Head where Martin and I will be in a few weeks time. The Malin Head version was never written down. The others were. See you there Martin. All the best to you and Josephine. Dan |
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04 Feb 04 - 11:51 PM (#1109702) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Shanghaiceltic I have a referance to this as ' An English ballad popular also in Ireland' Here is an intersting link to leaving Liverpool in 1848. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dadds/leavingofliverpool.html |
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08 Feb 04 - 05:33 AM (#1111767) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan Here's a quick transcription of Deirdre's version: ^^ As I roved out one evening, down by the Assembly Mall I heard two lovers speaking as me and my love passed on And the words that passed between them, they were but very few Its not the leaving of Limerick that grieves me, but my darling, leaving you In the morning when I am going, I will take you by the lily white hand And I'll wave it oer my shoulder saying adieu to the Limerick strand So farewell to the boys of Thomond Gate, It's to them I'll bid Adieu Its not etc. And now that we must be parted, I know you will understand Why I must go broken hearted, far away from my native land Though my fond love I must leave you, you know my heart is true Its not etc. The tune is recognisably related to The Leaving of Liverpool but very slow ( three minutes for three unaccompanied verses)and wistful. Beautifully sung by Deirdre. I have slightly mixed feelings about printing the above words. It has always been my attitude that if someone asks me for a song - they get it, no question. That's how I was treated and that's how the whole thing works. But the thought of someone taking these words and trying to hammer it into the inflexible strait jacket of the typical way in which the Leaving of Liverpool is usually belted out...... Regards |
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08 Feb 04 - 09:24 AM (#1111831) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,An Púca That's the way (Martin's text) Nora Butler sings the Leaving of Limerick so I'd say Liam's brother is right. Some Aussies around the site might have a recording of Nora singing it on a CD related to a tour of Australia by musicians and singers also including Séamus Connolly and Eileen O'Brien. One I heard in a friend's house over there a few years ago and I don't think there was any commercial release other than sales at concerts. I haven't seen it in Ireland. Nicky and Anne McAuliffe were also on that tour (a lot of fiddling talent on one jumbo jet) as well as Donie Nolan and Willie Fogarty as far as I can remember. Just in case people want to track down the recording from participants. |
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08 Feb 04 - 05:37 PM (#1112083) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan Eileen O'Brien would quite likely be the connction to Deirdre Scanlon, OK RTegards |
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08 Feb 04 - 06:55 PM (#1112120) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Malcolm Douglas Thanks, Martin. Do we have an earliest date for that? Leaving of Liverpool is, according to Doerflinger's source, at least as old as c.1885, so we ought to try to make sure that the relationship (unlikely, perhaps, but you never know) isn't in the other direction. I notice that Limerick is now marked for harvesting. Might I just echo Martin's concern about it? As it happens, the midi file attached to the DT entry for Liverpool is very slow, but it wouldn't be appropriate to imply, as midi links in the DT often, by omitting all source information, do, that the tunes are interchangeable. We would do well to pull together a bit more information -and, if possible, a transcription of the tune- before closing the page on this one. I notice, incidentally, that the DT file acknowledges neither Doerflinger nor Maitland, though it does mention recordings made by several well-known revival performers. It would be good to have the source information in the next update. |
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08 Feb 04 - 06:56 PM (#1112122) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Gareth Mmmm ! - My orginal thoughts were that the "Leaving of Limerick" was a subtle varient of the " L of L'pool" Given these words I fear I was wrong. But I will stand o my original comments regarding both Limerick and Liverpool being the gateway to the New World. Gareth |
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08 Feb 04 - 07:03 PM (#1112126) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,satchel Dan Milner's (Liam's Brother) and guest-Dolphin's comments are the only ones that aren't based on pure speculation. Gareth, a self-proclaimed nautical historian, should keep his day job--please. Even a cursory search of Lloyd's registries wouold show that there was only one ship David (not "Davey," --he was in Congress, after all) Crockett, and the one built in Mystic, CT did indeed have a Captain John Burgess. Doerflinger collected the lovely song, it does not, when sung by someone who cares, sound like a rugby song, and yes, the folk process has been hard at work with this puppy for most of the 20th century. There are plentiful sources to document this song completely, in all of its permutations--please stop guessing--this is how rumors get started. Oh, and while you're at it, don't bother to even read this post, because Milner and Dolphin are the only ones worth listening to. --Cheers! |
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11 Feb 04 - 12:56 PM (#1114159) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: bfolkemer All, Thanks for this discussion and the text of "Leaving of LImerick." Martin, please rest assured that I will not try to put it into the "strait jacket" of the tune I have for "Leaving of Liverpool." However, I'm eager to hear/see the music for "Leaving of Limerick." I have the capablility of turning an ABC file into a MIDI file, or converting written music into a MIDI file. If I can somehow get a recording, sheet music or an ABC from one of you, l will do that. Il probably need some help in putting it up on this site, but I'm sure I can learn to do that too. Regards, Beth |
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11 Feb 04 - 01:17 PM (#1114172) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan It seems to me that we don't have any real evidence as to the order in which the two songs developed - nor any real idea of the time of origin. My own instinct, for what it's worth, is that the Limerick one may well precede the Liverpool one. It just seems more likely that an emigrant song got slightly roughed up by sailors than that a sailors song was made so gentle! but it IS speculation. Regards |
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11 Feb 04 - 02:09 PM (#1114214) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Q (Frank Staplin) Just another song for which the only secure datum is time of publication. So far everything else is anecdotal. Interesting nevertheless. Doerflinger's informant also may have modified a song to his taste and changed names or added the Burgess-David Crockett lines- this could have no bearing on the date and place of origin of the song. The Mystic Museum has the name Davy Crockett for the ship; it was not a commissioned US naval vessel and at the time it was built Crockett already was in folk history and penny dreadfuls as Davy. |
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11 Feb 04 - 04:53 PM (#1114331) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Gareth Guest Satchel - If LR can confirm the name and existance, well find. However I respectfully refer to my orginal post :- "The only hard and fast rule on ships names was only one name per port of registry thus we could have the "Davey Crocket" of New York, and the "Davey Crocket" of say Mobile. Scond fact. In the days when I had a free run of the Lloyds of London libuary and records section have now long gone. I am working from memory but the commercial life of a wooden hull was not that long. The 'Perils of the Sea', decay, wear and tear, and commercial reality saw to that. It is very possible that here were more than one "Davey Crocket" on the transatlantic run." Gareth |
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12 Nov 04 - 03:41 PM (#1324905) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GEST Some facts from Ships of the World: An Historical Encyclopedia, Houghton Mifflin: David Crockett Clipper (3m). L/B/D: 218.8 × 41 × 27 (66.7m × 12.5m × 8.2m). Tons: 1,679 bm. Hull: wood. Built: Greenman & Co., Mystic, Conn.; 1853. Named for the celebrated American frontiersman and built for Handy & Everett's transatlantic packet trade between New York and Liverpool, the clipper David Crockett combined large carrying capacity with good speed and was regarded by some as "almost perfect." As it happened, she made only a few voyages on the transatlantic run before entering the Cape Horn run between New York and San Francisco under the house flag of Lawrence Giles and Company. In this hard trade, David Crockett proved one of the most successful clippers ever launched. Having cost $93,000 to build, by the time she quit the Cape Horn trade in 1883, after twenty-five passages from New York to San Francisco, she had earned a net profit of $500,000, and there is no record of any loss to her insurers for any cause. Sold first to Thomas Dunhams Nephew & Company and then to S. W. Carey, she was rerigged as a bark for service in the Atlantic. In 1890, after nearly four decades under sail, she was sold to Peter Wright & Son, of Philadelphia, and cut down for use as a coal barge "to any port where there is water enough to float her." With leg-of-mutton sails set from stump masts, in this ignominious work she ended her days around the turn of the century. Her figurehead, which was displayed only when in port, survives in the San Francisco Chamber of Commerce. Howe & Matthews, American Clipper Ships. |
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13 Nov 04 - 02:20 PM (#1325816) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,Toenails John I would agree with the leaving of Limerick theory, here's why. I was told years ago that the leaving of liverpool was an Irish song. During our mass emigration to the UK and the states there were a few passages that a person could travel, one such route was to the states, via the port of Liverpool, where some emigrants jumped ship to make a go of life there, only to rejoin another ship later for the onward journey, having to leave again, whatever he has made his in liverpool, ie a relationship, while having no personal attachment to the actual town. "It's not the leaving of liverpool that grieves me, but my darling when i think of you" This theory has always held it's own for me, but i don't know if it is a 100%fact I once heard a different version called The leaving of everything and all I love?? anyone know about that version or was it just somebody trying to be original (unsucsessfully!!) |
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16 Feb 09 - 05:48 AM (#2568087) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,MV It's clear from the lyrics in the version most people know that the singer is a Liverpool based sailor and there's no connection to emigration. The sailor has a fondness for parts of Liverpool that you wouldn't expect from someone recently arrived from Ireland before going on to America. There doesn't seem to be any evidence to determine which came first Leaving Of Liverpool or Leaving Of Limerick. I consider this song a Liverpool sea shanty rather than an Irish folk song. A lot of people seem to think this is an Irish folk song about emigration and this might have come about as a result of it being played by Irish folk groups and singers. MV |
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16 Feb 09 - 06:00 AM (#2568092) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST Okay I'll take a guess at which version came first. I would suggest that the Liverpool version came before the Limerick version because the Limerick version reads to me like a more polite remake of the Liverpool version. MV |
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16 Feb 09 - 06:06 AM (#2568097) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,MartinRyan It's as good a guess as any - in the absence of evidence! My own instinct, as noted earlier in the thread, is the reverse. Regards |
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16 Feb 09 - 07:39 AM (#2568133) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Jim McLean PAT CLANCY: You want to know where Dylan got his stuff? There was a little folk club here in London, down in the basement [The Troubadour]; we sang in it one night... Anyway, Al Grossman [Dylan's manager] paid somebody [Anthea Joseph]and gave them a tape-recorder, and every folk-singer that went up there was taped, and Bob Dylan got all those tapes... LIAM CLANCY: Yes, and the tune of "Farewell"... because whoever was singing harmony was closer to the mike than the guy singing melody, and when Dylan wrote his version, he wrote it to the harmony not the melody line... |
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16 Feb 09 - 12:29 PM (#2568303) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,MV A leaving song would be appealing in Ireland in the 19th Century. I have a feeling that in the same way as Irish groups and singers adopted the Liverpool song in the 20th Century maybe it was adopted in the same way in 19th Century Ireland. A case of history repeating itself? MV |
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16 Feb 09 - 12:53 PM (#2568329) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Terry McDonald There is nothing in the lyrics to the 'standard' version of the Leaving of Liverpool' to suggest emigration. It's his second voyage, he expects to come home, he's clearly a member of the crew and he's going to California, not the usual east coast ports such as New York or Boston where British and Irish emigrants arrived. |
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16 Feb 09 - 12:58 PM (#2568334) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: goatfell here in Ayrshire they line dance to this how ? |
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16 Feb 09 - 01:21 PM (#2568360) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: wyrdolafr Terry McDonald wrote: "There is nothing in the lyrics to the 'standard' version of the Leaving of Liverpool' to suggest emigration. It's his second voyage, he expects to come home, he's clearly a member of the crew and he's going to California, not the usual east coast ports such as New York or Boston where British and Irish emigrants arrived." I agree completely. I don't understand why there's actually any debate to it. Aside from the words themselves, it's not exactly an unlikely context or setting given Liverpool's importance as a port during the 19th C. |
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16 Feb 09 - 03:27 PM (#2568480) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: PoppaGator I was glad to see this verse (above): I've shipped in a Yankee clipper ship, Davy Crockett is her name. Captain Burgess he is tough, me lads, And the mate he's just the same. In several sources, including Rise Up Singing, this verse ends on a glaringly non-rhyming word, which I've never liked very much. Like Little Robyn and probably many others, I knew Dylan's "Farewell" before I ever heard the original "Leaving of Liverpool." I like Bob's verses, but I prefer singing and playing the chorus of the older song, especially for the line that contains the title. I get the feeling, however, that that very line gives the melody an element of momentum that encourages the singer(s) to speed up the rendition, perhaps to the detriment of the song's intended meaning/feeling. In the Dylan song, "It's not the lea-ea-vin'/ that's a-grievin' me" is more readily sung in a less rowdy, more contemplative manner than the original title-line. |
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16 Feb 09 - 05:08 PM (#2568577) Subject: Lyr Add: THE LEAVING OF LIVERPOOL (Doerflinger) From: Barry Finn From "Shanteymen & Shantyboys" by William Main Doerflinger. (Snips) "The first (song)is a sailor's farewell to Liverpool". Thousands of Yankee shellbacks knew Liverpool well. Many of the Famous American clippers, too, were familiar sights in the Mersey, among the three-skysail-yarder 'David Crockett' of New York, the merchant ship mentioned in this song. "It was in 1863 that she first arrived in the port (Liverpool) while under the command of Captain John A Burgess of Massachusetts, her skipper for many yrs. In 1874, on what was to have been his last voyage before retiring from sea, Captain Burgess was lost overboard in a storm in the South Atlantic." Dick Maitland, who sang "The Leaving of Liverpool," learned it about 1885, when he was bosun of the American ship "General Knox". "I was on deck one night", he said, "when I heard a Liverpool man singing it in the fo'c'sle...Yessir, that song hit the spot"! Seeing as this is a one-source song "that's how it was sung" anything else is a change through the folk process, maybe but in 'Rise Up Singing' they at least should have repeat the printed source rather than what I suspect change the words deliberately to their own flowing tastes. If Dick heard this coming from the fo'c'sle then it came from a crew member, as passengers weren't even allowed in the fo'c'sle. I've heard Dan Milner sing this many times, his is much like Lou Killen (except I can understand Dan better than Lou). I see no reason to believe this is a song of emigration & as Doeflinger says himself it's a "sailor's farewell".
I put Doerflinger's text here because there's been such wild speculation over the song, it's origin and words. Sing it as you will but here's how it is. |
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16 Feb 09 - 05:12 PM (#2568581) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: dick greenhaus That's a lot of debate about a song with a single source. |
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16 Feb 09 - 06:15 PM (#2568646) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Barry Finn Who'd of thunk? Barry |
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17 Feb 09 - 05:11 AM (#2568955) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Fred McCormick I've come to this thread late as usual, so apologies if someone has mentioned this already. However, Ciarain MacMathuna, the former RTÉ radio presenter collected it from a Limerick woman, I think in the 1950s. Certainly, I recall MacMathuna broadcasting it on a midweek programme he used to compere, as far back as the mid 1970s. I have only heard the singer's name on whistly medium wave radio, but it would have been Una Tuohy, or some such variation, and she came from Co. Limerick. A posthumous CD of her was published by her family and/or friends. Anyone who wants to follow this up could contact the Irish Traditional Music Archive http://www.itma.ie/ . "I'd normally be quite dubious about claims for an Irish antecedent for a song like The Leaving of Liverpool (mainly on the grounds that people are always saying things like that, but rarely seem able to back it up), but, according to Dan Milner, the suggestion came from Tom Munnelly, who I'd expect to be reliable on that sort of thing. I've never seen or heard The Leaving of Limerick, though. Is anyone able to quote it? Any reference to a traditional source would be useful, too; revival recordings may be of little help unless they provide substantive information. I know that Deirdre Scanlan, for example, has recorded a song of that title; but does she say anything about it?" |
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17 Feb 09 - 06:11 AM (#2568987) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan I see Nora Butler's CD on sale HERE , with a (very) short sample of The Leaving of Limerick Regards |
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17 Feb 09 - 11:25 AM (#2569192) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego I first heard the song from the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem, circa 1963. At least two references I recall credited authorship to Ewan McColl as if it were a composition of his and not older material possibly reworked. It appears now to be a much older song, at least in some form. |
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17 Feb 09 - 12:22 PM (#2569254) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: dick greenhaus The first--and prolly the last word on the subject: "Dick Maitland, who sang "The Leaving of Liverpool" learned it about 1885, when he was bosun of the American ship "General Knox". '"I was on deck one night"', he said, '"when I heard a Liverpool man singing it in the fo'c'sle...Yessir, that song hit the spot'"! |
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18 Feb 09 - 06:49 AM (#2569879) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,George Henderson Of course Dick Maitland Heard a Liverpool man singing it. And there is no doubt that Doerflinger collected it. And we must thank them both for allowing us the opportunity to sing it now. However, The Leaving of Limerick is also a very fine song. Deirdre Scanlan got it from the singing of Nora Butler and I asked Tom Munnelly for his thoughts on it. He was not definitive but he felt that the Leaving of Limerick was the older song. He did not research it, as far as I am aware, and this is only conjecture. But who cares, they are both very good songs and both should be sung. |
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18 Feb 09 - 09:07 AM (#2569949) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,MV Thanks Martin for the clip of Leaving Of Limerick. The clip doesn't include the chorus so I don't if it sounds like Leaving Of Liverpool when it gets to the chorus. The melody in the clip I heard didn't sound to me like Leaving Of Liverpool. The leaving theme in both songs may well go way back there may be other leaving songs we have lost over time. Maybe Leaving Of Liverpool and Leaving Of Limerick were created independent of each other? MV |
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18 Feb 09 - 09:24 AM (#2569957) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Fred McCormick MV."Maybe Leaving Of Liverpool and Leaving Of Limerick were created independent of each other?" No. One was definitely created from the other and gut feeling tells me "Limerick" is the older of the two. Incidentaaly, the two tunes are so close that I was listening to it on the radio once and somebody walking past said, "That's The Leaving of Liverpool". Here's another, slightly longer text, which was sent to the RTÉ broadcaster Donagh McDonough in the 1950s. McDonough used to get people to send the texts of ballads to him, and he would then get singers to put airs to them and broadcast the results over the radio. His son, Martin McDonough (I think) posted the collection on the Internet some years, and it included some rare and invaluable material. Unfortunately, I've just been to look for the site now and it seems to have disappeared. If anyone has an extant website address, do please post it. The Leaving of Limerick As I roved out one evening down by the Assembly Mall I heard two lovers talking as me and my love passed on; The words that passed between them they were but very few: "It isn't the leaving of Limerick that grieves me, But my darling when I think of you!" "In the morning when I'm going I'll wave my lily-white hand, I'll wave it all over my shoulder, and adieu to Limerick Strand; And farewell to the girls of Thomond Gate, 'tis to them I bed adieu; It isn't the leaving of Limerick that grieves me, But my darling when I think of you!" "when I think of the pleasant days we spent in search of treasure trove And the hours we spent in courting away in Gabbet's Grove; I did not then deceive you when I vowed I would be true; It isn't the leaving of Limerick that grieves me, But my darling when I think of you!" "And now that we must be parted 'tis hard to understand Why I must go broken hearted away from Limerick strand; Though, My fond love, I must leave , you know my heart it is true; It isn't the leaving of Limerick that grieves me, But my darling when I think of you!" |
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18 Feb 09 - 09:25 AM (#2569959) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan MV The clip is too short to be helpful, alright - but there's no doubt about the similarity when you hear the full version. Regards |
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18 Feb 09 - 09:37 AM (#2569966) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,George Henderson Fred. Thanks for the extra verses. But I am not so sure that the Limerick song is older. It does not appear to be a translation from Irish (Gaelic) and I am not sure when Limerick was "converted" from Irish language to the English Language but I have doubts that it was older than the dates for Liverpool mentioned above. Martin, would English have been used in Limerick at that time or sooner? |
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18 Feb 09 - 09:49 AM (#2569971) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan George To me, there's nothing in either the words or the tune to suggest an Irish-language song origin. Limerick city, at least, would have been mostly English-speaking throughout the 19C. Fred's additional verse is very interesting. "Gabbet's Grove" sounds like a name that will have disappeared by now. Wonder when? Regards |
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18 Feb 09 - 10:09 AM (#2569983) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Fred McCormick I don't know when Irish died out in Limerick but I imagine it was fairly early. Certainly I'd expect well before 1885, which is when Dick Maitland first heard "Liverpool". I'd be almost certain that "Limerick" isn't a translation from the Irish. In fact very few Gaelic songs made it into the Anglo-Irish folk tradition. Plus there aren't all that many emigration songs in Irish anyway. In fact the vast bulk of emigration songs postdate the famine of the mid 1840s and are in English. It's likely therfore that Limerick was written some time from the mid nineteenth century on. The reason why I think Limerick-Liverpool is more likely than Liverpool-Limerick is simply tht it would reflect the pattern of emigration. At that time, emigration was very much a one way ticket and you didn't get much in the way of returnees. Hence a song written in Limerick had more chance of being turned up in Liverpool than a song written in Liverpool would have had of finding its way to Limerick. On the other hand, the way that sailors kicked about the world, you would never know for certain. |
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18 Feb 09 - 10:12 AM (#2569985) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan Fred Click here for the Donagh McDonagh (note spelling!) site. Regards |
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18 Feb 09 - 10:17 AM (#2569996) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Fred McCormick Martin. Yes. I was thinking of Co. Limerick, but the city would have been English speaking long before most of the rural parts of the county. I've just googled Assembly Mall Limerick, and it turns out to be a thoroughfare in that city. Does anybody know whether the other places mentioned are in Limerick City also? |
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18 Feb 09 - 10:19 AM (#2569999) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Fred McCormick Martin. Thanks for the link, and the corrected spelling. No wonder I couldn't find it. I downloaded all the songs when the site was first put up and would encourage others to do the same in cas eit ever vanishes altogether. |
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18 Feb 09 - 10:19 AM (#2570000) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan Thomondgate is an area in Limerick city. I've never heard of Gabbet's Grove - but will see what I can find. Regards |
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18 Feb 09 - 10:24 AM (#2570005) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan Click here then scroll to the bottom of the page for Gabbet's Grove, in Limerick. Gabbet was a 19 C. landowner in that area, it seems. Regards |
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18 Feb 09 - 10:42 AM (#2570016) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Fred McCormick Actually spelt Gabbett's, it seems to have been somewhere pretty close to Limerick. But look what I turned up by googling Gabbett. From http://www.freewebs.com/vitaphone1/victor2.html . Victor 20713 was a 78 RPM record with a tune called Gabbett's Grove on one side and Devil's Bit on the other. Played by the P. J. McNamara Quartet. |
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18 Feb 09 - 10:50 AM (#2570033) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan Yes - both spellings seem to have been used. Gabbett's Grove is in Corbally, now a suburb of Limerick city. Regards p.s. IIRC, the Devil's Bit is a feature in a mountain range in Tipperary! |
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18 Feb 09 - 10:56 AM (#2570037) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,George Henderson Yes. And right underneath the Devils Bit there is a village called Killea. The Killea singers circle meets on the second Monday of every month (October to May) in Sullivans pub. And a great session it is too. |
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18 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM (#2570183) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,MV |
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18 Feb 09 - 02:07 PM (#2570189) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,MV Sorry blank post above. It's quite possible that Irish settlers in Liverpool introduced the song to the city. The considerable numbers of Irish people living here in the 1840s and after would facilitate the link. However if Limerick was not a port on the coast I would be more convinced by the Limerick first case. The port link could take the song the other way. MV |
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18 Feb 09 - 02:13 PM (#2570194) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan In a way, of course, what's most interesting is that they BOTH survived - each by its own slender, traditional thread. Regards |
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18 Feb 09 - 02:17 PM (#2570197) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Terry McDonald Until someone produces evidence of the Leaving of Limerick being mentioned or collected in Ireland before 1885, any suggestion that Leaving of Liverpool is based upon it seems like wishful thinking to me. |
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18 Feb 09 - 02:29 PM (#2570210) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,MV If you date the link from the 1840s/1850s the Liverpool singer of the song would surely know it was based on an Irish song of his or his father's generation. Would the Liverpool sailor have passed on the song without revealing it's roots? Would he have known it's roots? How well known was the Limerick song? If anyone can date the Limerick song to the 1840s/1850s period or before then that would make me start thinking that the Limerick song came before the Liverpool song. MV |
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18 Feb 09 - 02:39 PM (#2570220) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan Terry We're talking about tradition - not print. That's the point. I assume nobody believes that "Limerick" was produced from "Liverpool" post Doerflinger . In that case, what we're saying is that in the late 19C., both songs existed in oral tradition - and neither were well-known! Whichever direction the transfer happened in, it's unusual. Can anyone think of another such example? Regards |
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18 Feb 09 - 02:53 PM (#2570232) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Terry McDonald Martin - I've no axe to grind either way! It's just that 'tradition' is such an elusive word - do you know when the Leaving of Limerick was first mentioned, as opposed to appearing in print? |
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18 Feb 09 - 03:04 PM (#2570249) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan Terry Not really - nothing more than the rather vague references by the late Tom Munnelly which are mentioned earlier in this thread. These suggest that he was conscious of it being in the tradition in the Limerick/Munster area (probably 1970's?). It is not clear if he collected versions himself. If he did, his usual meticulous notes will be attached. I'll make enquiries. Regards p.s. With a strong interest in both the maritime and Irish song traditions - I've no axe to grind either, believe me! |
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18 Feb 09 - 03:11 PM (#2570254) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,MV This is from www.movinghere.org.uk about Irish migration to Liverpool in the 19th Century. It includes a line about seasonal workers returning to Ireland so it is possible Irish people took the song home with them:- "Liverpool already had a substantial Irish population of about 50,000 in 1841, making it the most densely settled Irish town in mainland Britain. It became the main pressure point for Famine refugees in 1847-1848. The historian David Fitzpatrick estimates that, at the height of the Great Famine, a quarter of a million passengers were arriving in Liverpool from Ireland every year. Of these, two-thirds departed overseas and many others were seasonal workers who later returned to Ireland." MV |
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18 Feb 09 - 06:07 PM (#2570415) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: curmudgeon I learned the Leaving of Liverpool from the singing of Ewan MacColl on the Prestige LP, A Sailor's Garland. I had never heard of the Leaving of Limerick prior to finding it this week in this thread. Upon listening to the fragmentary clip of "Limerick," I heard a tune somewhat similar to "Liverpool," but with more Irish flavor. If I could hear the whole song, I might find more similarity, but I doubt it. Over many years I have observed that those who are most likely to find similarities in tunes just haven't heard enough tunes.. Also the words as printed here do not scan well to the "Liverpool" tune and would need to be forced and/or altered. The words seem to be a bit contrived; they have neither the honesty of a trad song nor the art of a parlour song. Doerflinger published "Shantyboys and Shantymen" in 1951. "Limerick" supposedly appeared in that same decade. Dick Maitland died in 1942 which meams that "Liverpool" had to have been collected that year or earlier. Did Doerflinger ever give anyone transcripts of the songs he was collecting prior to the publication of the book? While we will never know when either song was composed, we do know which was first to surface. Just a few random observations - Tom Hall |
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18 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM (#2570465) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan Hi Tom! Upon listening to the fragmentary clip of "Limerick," I heard a tune somewhat similar to "Liverpool," but with more Irish flavor. If I could hear the whole song, I might find more similarity, but I doubt it. That's all I can find online for now - We'll see if we can organise a full verse! Over many years I have observed that those who are most likely to find similarities in tunes just haven't heard enough tunes.. You may take it that I (and Fred McCormick, an earlier contributor) have heard more than enough tunes in both genres (Irish and maritime) to recognise similarities! Also the words as printed here do not scan well to the "Liverpool" tune and would need to be forced and/or altered. The words seem to be a bit contrived; they have neither the honesty of a trad song nor the art of a parlour song. Nobody claimed the two were identical! Given the much freer approach to time in Irish singing, I'd be highly suspicious if they DID match! The "contrived" language you mention is excellent evidence of 19 C. Irish origin. Placing them between "traditional" in the strict sense and "parlour" (for which read Moore etc. in Ireland) is perceptive. Doerflinger published "Shantyboys and Shantymen" in 1951. "Limerick" supposedly appeared in that same decade. Dick Maitland died in 1942 which meams that "Liverpool" had to have been collected that year or earlier. Did Doerflinger ever give anyone transcripts of the songs he was collecting prior to the publication of the book? This implies a possibility that "Limerick" was composed in the light of Doerflinger's publication of Maitland's song. The language of "Limerick" is such that it would amount to a truly wonderful pastiche of 19 C. Hiberno-English. Taking only the limited timeline we currently have, this is technically possible - but highly unlikely! While we will never know when either song was composed, we do know which was first to surface. Now - THAT is perfectly true! Regards |
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19 Feb 09 - 03:02 AM (#2570648) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Barry Finn One thought, no a couple thoughts. How odd it would be for a song sung in the custom of sailors would be heard in Liverpool by a Irish laborer, taken back to Liverpool been adopted into a very different singing tradition & then not only be taken into that tradition but then have another song grow out of it & that be exceptable enough to have survived while the orginal died off??? I think that it's possible but highly unlikely & nothing more than a wild guess. Think of the possibilities A song sung in Limrick going to Liverpool & being taken into, again a very different tradition, being adopted into that tradition but nearly disappearing in the tradition of it's origin. If it weren't good enough to nearly survive in it's birth place why would it be good enough to survive in a foriegn tradition?? I think that's also possible too, but again highly unlikely & is, again nothing more than a wild guess But it is a sand pit worth digging around in. Barry |
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19 Feb 09 - 06:17 AM (#2570724) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,MV There would have been Irish men in Liverpool working on both the docks and on the ships. Irish sailors or dockers or labourers could have taken it back to Ireland. Limerick is a port like Liverpool so the song could easily go either way. My feeling is that the Liverpool song came first because I can't imagine a more polite song such as "Limerick" being taken up and reworked by dockers and sailors in Liverpool. I can imagine the chorus and melody of "Liverpool" being admired and reworked for Irish folk music. The words of "Limerick" are in observer mode rather than first person like "Liverpool". Maybe the writer of the Limerick song is revealing his distance from the song's origins. We'll probably never get to the bottom of this mystery. MV |
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19 Feb 09 - 07:55 AM (#2570774) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Les in Chorlton Has anybody detected Bert Lloyd's fingerprints? L in C |
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19 Feb 09 - 09:01 AM (#2570826) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan To answer my own earlier question about similar "orphan twins", to coin a phrase, I suppose the most obvious one is the weird and wonderful "Jimmy Murphy", which also seems to have survived in oral tradition in two pockets on either side of the Atlantic. HOWEVER in its case there is a broadsheet version known. Regards p.s. Re Bert Lloyd: No reason to suspect the accused, m'lud! |
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19 Feb 09 - 09:24 AM (#2570834) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Les in Chorlton True enough Martin, the accused's previous cannot be taken into account, and in fact his fingerprints have not been found at the scene Cheers L in C |
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19 Feb 09 - 01:43 PM (#2571038) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Barry Finn Not only are there no fingerprints but in the absence of any DNA, feelings & speculations about the origins don't count. We have no evidence to base anything on. Barry |
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19 Feb 09 - 02:18 PM (#2571078) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Les in Chorlton Barry, "We have no evidence to base anything on". mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm L in C |
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19 Feb 09 - 04:18 PM (#2571181) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,MV Yes but opinions are fun LOL if we didn't speculate we wouldn't accumulate! MV |
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26 Aug 09 - 03:17 PM (#2709202) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: smpc ever think they might not have any connection at all i no plenty of songs that have similer lines but are not connected? ? ? |
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26 Aug 09 - 03:20 PM (#2709205) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Les in Chorlton Is that Rip van Wincle smpc? |
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26 Aug 09 - 03:22 PM (#2709212) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Les in Chorlton Oh and 100! |
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06 Sep 09 - 04:32 PM (#2717592) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: The Sandman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa0KBosXB34http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa0KBosXB34 oh and 101 |
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07 Sep 09 - 03:32 PM (#2718258) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: mayomick People have been tracing the song/s mostly through the lyric/s.Would anybody have any ideas on musical antecedents ? Does it sound like an Irish tune ? To my ear the Liverpool tune - I haven't heard the Limerick one- sounds very slightly like The Boys of Wexford in the chorus. |
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07 Sep 09 - 11:27 PM (#2718571) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Gibb Sahib Regarding the tune, it's notable that most performers sing certain, significant "wrong" notes, i.e. if we are in the key of C, they are singing the note A in 2 places they should be singing B. In no way am I suggesting there is only one "right" way to do things -- rather, just noting that the one authentic source for the song, Doerflinger's transcription of Maitland, is one way, whereas some early revivalist (Dubliners or whoever) changed it to the way nearly everyone does now. In sum: not much relevance from an artistic standpoint since art is as art does, but relevant if one is exploring "origins," where one needs to carefully check the primary source! |
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14 Jun 11 - 09:20 PM (#3170745) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST capt john burgess lived in somerset massachusetts usa his house still stands on main st |
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31 Oct 11 - 11:43 AM (#3247663) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: BobKnight For a brilliant version of "Leaving Limerick" check out the version by Muireann Nic Amhlaodh, which she sang on Transatlantic Sessions, series five, episode five. Best thing on the entire series so far in my opinion. |
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14 Nov 11 - 09:57 AM (#3256771) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan The video BobKnight refers to is on Youtube HERE - run the timer on to about 13 mins and you'll pick it up. Regards |
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14 Nov 11 - 01:26 PM (#3256899) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Lighter Turns out Doerflinger collected a *second* version of "The Leaving of Liverpool." It was sung by Captain Patrick Tayleur, one of his best informants. Go here for the article by Steve Winick. Scroll to Page 3: http://www.loc.gov/folklife/news/pdf/FCN_Vol30_3-4optimized.pdf |
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14 Nov 11 - 07:06 PM (#3257116) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Greg B I had the honor of co-hosting Bill Doerflinger's final singing party at his house in Convent Station, NJ., as well as shuttling him everywhere from New York to Mystic during his later years; we were practically neighbors. He was a very open-minded gent, but he was a stickler for detail. He transcribed his collections exactly as rendered. At the same time, he recognized that his sources' memories might not be perfect. None the less, he left it for the rest of us to figure out. (BTW, he essentially ghost-wrote Woody Guthrie's "Bound for Glory." Woody himself was in no condition. Indeed, his final decline began when he was found wandering on highway 24, just a couple of miles from Bill's house, where he'd stayed for a while during the writing of the auto-biography.) Anyway, as the grandson of a Lancashire family, I always am amused when New Yorkers, as fiercely loyal to Bill as can be, make known their objections to "my darlin' when I think on thee." Bill never sought such loyalty; he just reported what he heard or recorded. He was a scholar above all else. If Cpt. Dick Maitland ever mis-remembered anything, it was likely this. My Grandma and Papa, as well as their siblings, said "thee" and "thou" even in their new home, California, in the 1960's. Well, they said "Tha'rt" (you are) and "Thou'wt" (you have or you should) more often than "thee" or "thou." The idea that a Midlands sailor would say "darling when I think on thee" is incredibly obvious to those of us who grew up hearing one of the Midlands dialects. It's the single rhyme failure in the whole of the lyrics. |
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14 Nov 11 - 07:59 PM (#3257136) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Lighter Interesting, Greg. Tayluer's version *also* has "you" where "thee" would rhyme. Except for the chorus, Tayluer's words differ considerably from Maitland's. Since they both lived at Sailors' Snug Harbor, I wonder if T could have picked up the chorus from M. Winick's 2008 article is essential reading for anyone interested in "The Leaving of Liverpool," Doerflinger, or the collecting of American sea songs in general. |
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15 Nov 11 - 07:40 PM (#3257784) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Greg B I fine article it is! I'd suggest the other way 'round... that Maitland may have gotten his chorus from Tayluer (who was born in Maitland!). My reasoning is that Matiland's version, which he purportedly overheard being sung by a sailor in the fo'c's'le, is a forebitter... no chorus required. Tayluer specifically identifies his version as a hauling chantey. |
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15 Nov 11 - 08:46 PM (#3257818) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Lighter Could be. Maitland's versions often sound highly improvisatory. But in this case, less so than Tayluer's. We'll never know. But somebody extensively "rewrote" the lyrics in an authentically traditional way. (Nothing as "poetic" as the Clancys' "The sun is on the harbor, love....") |
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16 Nov 11 - 04:38 PM (#3258376) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Greg B It's rather frustrating that only the catalog entries of the original Tayluer and Maitland recordings are available on-line, and that the recordings are not, for example, on YouTube. |
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17 Nov 11 - 07:58 AM (#3258672) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Charley Noble Greg and Lighter- Always interesting to get further updates. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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21 Nov 12 - 03:58 AM (#3439695) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: MartinRyan For a full recording of Deirdre Scanlon singing Leaving of Limerick Click here Regards |
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21 Nov 12 - 11:01 AM (#3439852) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,Lighter That the "Limerick" song may be older is suggested by the presence of "of you," which recurs in "Liverpool" in spite of the rhyming requirement. It's no more than a suggestion. However, one might expect a post-1941 lyricist to have preferred the presumably more "romantic" "thee." (Romantic for folksong aficionados, that is.) |
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23 Nov 12 - 06:44 PM (#3441215) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST Please does anyone have the dots for Deirdre Scanlon,s version of The Leaving of Limerick.The tune is causing mild "disharmony" in our household as my other half and I seem to be hearing different things.Thank You |
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16 May 20 - 04:28 AM (#4052706) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,henryp From: Lighter Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:59 PM Except for the chorus, Tayluer's words differ considerably from Maitland's. Since they both lived at Sailors' Snug Harbor, I wonder if T could have picked up the chorus from M. According to Library of Congress editor Stephen Winick, "The Leaving of Liverpool" was first collected by Doerflinger from Maitland, whose repertoire he recorded at Sailors' Snug Harbor in Staten Island from 1938 to 1940. In early 1942, Doerflinger found another version sung by a retired sailor named Patrick Tayluer, who was living at the Seamen's Church Institute at the South Street Seaport in Manhattan. Winick, Stephen "Sung With Gusto by the Men": A Unique Recording of "The Leaving of Liverpool" in the AFC Archive. Wikipedia The buildings of Snug Harbor remain an impressive sight; they are considered an incomparable remnant of New York's 19th-century seafaring past. |
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16 May 20 - 04:35 AM (#4052708) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,henryp BBC Radio 4 Today programme, Saturday 16 May 2020 The show must go on; the programme ended with 'Liverpudlian' Jim Moray singing The Leaving of Liverpool. |
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16 May 20 - 04:48 AM (#4052709) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,Derek Schofield Yea, I've told Jim he'll have to work on his accent if the media are going to refer to him as 'Liverpudlian', although he does now live in Liverpool... Derek |
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16 May 20 - 08:23 AM (#4052737) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,Peter Cripps Hi does anyone know where I can find the dots or abc of "Leaving of Limerick"? |
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16 May 20 - 08:47 AM (#4052741) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,Starship I can't find notation, but perhaps the following will help someone: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/muireann-nic-amhlaoibh/the-leaving-of-limerick-chords-2481674 |
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16 May 20 - 09:11 AM (#4052742) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Jim Carroll "Yea, I've told Jim he'll have to work on his accent if the media " Don't forget he needs passport too Derek we're quite fussy there I can remember when the Beatles ht the fan - there were more mid-Scouse accents around than there were Mid-Atlantic ones Jim |
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16 May 20 - 11:16 AM (#4052780) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Lighter Henryp, thanks for the correction. |
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16 May 20 - 04:53 PM (#4052863) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,henryp Thank you, Lighter. I'm not sure when this came to light. |
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17 May 20 - 05:26 AM (#4052973) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST dots! dots!- this is folk music, don't be b... ridiculous!!- |
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27 May 23 - 08:07 AM (#4173265) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,TM The Assembly Mall mentioned in the Limerick song was demolished in 1820/20. It was rebuilt as Charlotte's Quay in the 1820s. This suggests thee Limerick song is pre 1820 and much older than the Liverpool song. The other locations mentioned in the Limerick song still survive. Limerick Strand is now Clancy's Strand renamed after the Mayor of Limerick George Clancy murdered by british auxilaries during the war of independence. Gabbets Grove is now known as The Grove and is situated in the Corbally suburb of Limerick. Thomondgate is an area of Limerick directly opposite Limerick Castle. |
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27 May 23 - 05:30 PM (#4173289) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,JeffB Then there's The Bolton Apprentice. Pretty much the same tune 1 Oh when I was apprenticed in Bolton Town at fourteen years of age, oh I never thought I would sail the seas till they paid me a living wage. Chorus So fare thee well my Princes Dock, and when I return united we will be. It’s not the leaving of Liverpool that grieves me but my darling when I think of thee. 2 Now the very first voyage that I ever sailed was to California’s Golden Gate, And then I seemed to bid the world farewell as in Bolton Town I had to wait. 3 The work it was hard, the hours were long, as you’re cruising round the Forties again, and there was I still thinking of you when we were becalmed by Spain. 4 Now one of these days I’m going to pack up my bags and I’ll never go to sea no more; I’ll leave the dock by the Gladstone Gate and soon you’ll hear me knocking at your door. |
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15 Aug 23 - 03:42 AM (#4179219) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,RJM https://youtu.be/DNVTzDg08jE |
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12 Sep 23 - 06:59 PM (#4181446) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Lighter The diction of "The Bolton Apprentice" strongly suggests (I'll go further: "shows") that the song is a latter-day spin-off. In other words, 1960s or later. |
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12 Sep 23 - 06:59 PM (#4187347) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Lighter The diction of "The Bolton Apprentice" strongly suggests (I'll go further: "shows") that the song is a latter-day spin-off. In other words, 1960s or later. |
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12 Sep 23 - 07:08 PM (#4187348) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Lighter Very surprisingly, the link I posted long ago to Winick's article no longer seems to work, though it does take you to the Library of Congress site. But the article does seem to be downloadable here: https://marine-cafe.com/download/sung-with-gusto-by-the-men-a-unique-recording-of-the-leaving-of-liverpool-article-by-stephen-d- |
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12 Sep 23 - 07:08 PM (#4181447) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Lighter Very surprisingly, the link I posted long ago to Winick's article no longer seems to work, though it does take you to the Library of Congress site. But the article does seem to be downloadable here: https://marine-cafe.com/download/sung-with-gusto-by-the-men-a-unique-recording-of-the-leaving-of-liverpool-article-by-stephen-d- |
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13 Sep 23 - 04:39 AM (#4181470) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,RJM You sing it how you like that is the nature of the beast [trad music] |
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13 Sep 23 - 04:39 AM (#4187346) Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,RJM You sing it how you like that is the nature of the beast [trad music] |