BS: The largest class society in the world

04 Feb 04 - 08:27 PM (#1109615)
Subject: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Donuel-DonHakman

No it is not the UK with its publicized lords.

It is the USA with the largest gap between the rich and poor in the world. Our lords are virtually invisible in American society.
To ensure this class society, great efforts to deny a college education to the poor and middle class has proceeded steadily for the last 30 years.

Now the fruits of the priviledged are heavy on the tree. In 2008 the largest graduating HS class in US history will produce 4 million students that qualify for college education but will be unable to afford a 4 year school. 2 million will be unable to afford any college. The PELL grants used to provide an average of 68% of a students college funds but today it will cover an average of 33%.

Underpriviledged students unable to afford college education will be ballooning to 60 million over the next 10 years.

The priviledged class will create all the lawyers, judges, politicians and well paid professions for the next 3 generations.

Again, this is not to say it has not always been the case but just as with election fraud, the scope and all inclusiveness of a caste control over the masses in the USA is now titanic.

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04 Feb 04 - 08:38 PM (#1109624)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

I'd rather live here in the U.S then with all those British women who don't shave their legs or armpits.

You can get off your soapbox now. Believe it or not, there appears to be a lot of people who wouldn't consider living anywhere else.

There are people who rise from the underpriviledged to achieve success. There are also many others who don't care to.

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04 Feb 04 - 08:47 PM (#1109630)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt

I think it is easier to go to college now as an underpriviledged person in America than when I started in the 60s In Georgia the HOPE grant is available to all students who have a B average in HIgh School. There are more low interest loans, more grants more scholarships, etc than ever before. I went to professional school in the late 70s and had a wife and 3 children. We worked, got food stamps, ate lots of ramen and borrowed the money at a rate, I might add, that would scare you to death compared to today's rates. The last of the $80,000 I borrowed was at 19.25%. Hard to convince me that you can't do it, as I did it. and I come from a millworker bluecollar family.   I agree that the cost of education itself is very high today, but if a student wants an education, there is nothing stopping him or her.

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04 Feb 04 - 08:52 PM (#1109632)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Bill D

Martin Gibson...I never cease to be amazed at how far you can miss the point and how narrow your viewpoint can be....and how quaintly you can sterotype entire groups of people.

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04 Feb 04 - 09:17 PM (#1109647)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: PoppaGator

I agreed with the original post in that in the US today, the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is disappearing. This is nothing new; it's been going on, to a greater or lesser degree, since the advent of Reaganomics in the early 80s. My sister puts it succinctly: there are two classes in the US today, those with and those without stock portfolios.

Access to higher education, however, is not the worst aspect of this development. It *is* true that many opportunities for financial aid are available, most notably Clinton's "Hope" tax credit.

The negative aspect of educational financial aid is that more money is available in the form of loans than grants, and with rising tuitions and fees, a young student can easily get deeper in debt than they'll be able to handle, unless they not only complete a degree, but also get into an especially high-paying field. Salaries available to those with "ordinary" arts-and-sciences bachelors degrees aren't really enough to allow loan repayment along with normal expenses for food/rent/transporation, etc. And those who accumulate two or three years worth of college-loan debt and then fail to finish up -- they're in real financial trouble.

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04 Feb 04 - 10:00 PM (#1109667)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt

I do aggree, poppagatoe, that if you do not finish your studies, your debt will be difficult to pay back, and I am concerned that the colleges are getting too expensive. the HOPE grant I am speaking of has nothing to do with Bill Clinton but was developed by Zell Miller in Georgia from the profits from the lottery. It allows students who keep a B average to attend any state college tuition free and even gives money for books. If you are a serious student who wants an education, you can walk out of college debt free.

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05 Feb 04 - 10:50 AM (#1109971)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

Martin Gibson I can't tell if you ever mean anything seriously, or if you're ever going to decide which guitar you want, but I think you're partly right. Some people don't want to "move up." I probably don't agree with what else you might mean by it, though.

The semi-permeable class structure in the U.S. is complicated, and it probably is a factor that some people just don't identify with being in another class, and aren't motivated to strive for it.

    What would smart highly educated career-motivated people do I wonder if nobody would pick up their trash?

    What sort of crisis would ensue if interior designers quit? Would a whole class of people have to decide what they liked in their own homes?

My point is just that the fact that somebody could work toward a different class or level of pay doesn't excuse fair payment and decent respect for any job they do have. I think too often the possibility of mobility is used as an excuse for things being screwed up. Just move up, dummy. Don't worry about the fact that somebody has to do these low-status jobs. If I could find a doctor as good and thoughtful as that sales guy at radio shack I'd be happy. Instead, they seem like salespeople, he seemed concerned for my welfare. Odd.

The other side of the coin is people who do lousy work because society is unfair. Having to work with them is a living death.

My solution. Overpaid morons should be required by the IRS to demonstrate at least a dozen hundred-dollar tips each year to deserving service people and laborers. (Blue collar workers tip better than the wealthy.) Think how it would change society if superior efforts at basic jobs really were rewarded every now and then, whether anyone "moved up" or not.

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05 Feb 04 - 11:32 AM (#1110002)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge

I `ad that Martin Gibson in my cab once. As we drove round Windsor Park `e said it takes the President 6 hours to drive round his ranch.
I said yeah, I `ad a car like that once!!
What am I like??

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05 Feb 04 - 12:27 PM (#1110050)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Dr Will C U Now

The largest class society is "Economy". I know. I have flown United!

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05 Feb 04 - 04:49 PM (#1110186)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

Now now, I only wish Martin Gibson would consider how much it hurts the feelings of European women, and my wife, that they don't appeal to him.

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05 Feb 04 - 05:36 PM (#1110221)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Little Hawk

LOL! They would be devastated!

An interesting aside: In Cuba anyone can afford to go to college...because it's free. The young people I knew in Cuba said that the main impediment toward getting a higher education was the general shortage of cash, meaning you might not have enough spare time left over from work to take advantage of the free higher education, because you were too busy earning enough to just support yourself on a daily basis, and perhaps the seniors in your family...plus, the books and paper, etc were expensive.

Another aside: Before Castro a majority of Cubans were very poor, without medical care, and illiterate. Within 3 years after Castro there was almost 100% literacy on the island (and has been ever since), there was good free medical care everywhere, and things were considerably better for the average person. Since the collapse of the Warsaw Pact the economy has weakened greatly, and most Cubans are again very poor, but they still have good schools and good medical care.

In a general sense, Cuba struck me as the most classless and the least racist society I have every witnessed (this was about 3 years ago).

And yet, there are certainly people who want to get out...like the ones who converted a car into a boat the other day and tried to drive across the sea to Florida! There are numerous reasons for that...just like there are numerous reasons for people all over Latin America to want to get to North America. Cuba is no special exception to that...it's just the one that happens to be directly across the strait from Florida. But it is the only one that's being embargoed and treated like a pariah by the USA...

Why? Because Castro won't follow orders from Washington, that's why. That makes him an outlaw in the eyes of America. He has never been forgiven for kicking out the big corporations that ran Cuba before the revolution. It's all a question of moneyed interests. You cross those guys and you are out in the cold...or dead. Castro has managed to stay alive longer than anyone might have expected in 1960.

- LH

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05 Feb 04 - 06:06 PM (#1110252)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Bill D

There was a pretty high cost in lives and self-esteem and free speech to get that 'free' medical care of debatable quality and 'free' education, the details of which were dictated by Castro. 30 years of watching people trying to leave tell me something about how the people felt.

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05 Feb 04 - 06:08 PM (#1110255)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

To my fans:

Bill D.:
I'm glad you are amazed. I never miss the point. I am usually laughing at it because it is usually so ludicrous.

Fred Miller:
You are full of crap. Sorry, I wasn't really being serious.

Guest, Jim Knowledge
Please go to the store and buy the letter H. Your best bet is at Wal-Mart. On your cab driver salary, you should be able to afford it.

McGrath:
Double good.

Fred Miller (again)
I am not out to hurt all European women's feeling. Hell, I wish I could buy them all a comb for their legs and armpits.

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05 Feb 04 - 06:57 PM (#1110298)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, Bill, but whenever there's an armed revolution anywhere you have loss of life...and when it's over you have people who are delighted with the result and people who are devastated about it. Cuba was no exception. I've met Cubans who hate Castro, Cubans who admire and support him, and Cubans who simply put up with him because he is the "status quo". It all depends who you talk to. After your American revolution there were a lot of people who wanted to escape to Canada too...they were called "loyalists" (to the British crown). That's what revolutions are like. The medical care is good quality from what I hear, and I found no signs of lack of self-esteem in Cuba. Quite the contrary! I would say that the Cuban population is physically healthier than the North American population, particularly because so many people are grossly overweight in North America. The main concerns in Cuba are lack of money, lack of goods, and the unresponsiveness of the government bureaucracy.

To look at any place and simply consign it to an imaginary "Axis of Evil" or something like that can be very misleading. Cuba, like the USA or Canada, has its good points and its bad points. It's not all one way or all the other way. I can say this: without Castro's revolution ordinary Cubans under Batista were far worse off...and that is why his revolution succeeded in 1959.

- LH

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05 Feb 04 - 08:45 PM (#1110364)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan

martin Gibson: Maybe you know what you are talking about after all. You are obviously one of the people "who don't want to move up." Did you invent the term, "ignorance is bliss?"

I guess we can be glad that you do not want a better lifestyle but there are people who do and their best means of obtaining their hopes and dreams is through education.

Having said that, I wish to clarify that university does not insure a ticket to a better job. It does, however, contribute to personal growth. In my case, it seemed that it was the one thing that nobody could ever take from me. It was a good investment.

d

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05 Feb 04 - 11:11 PM (#1110444)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

Martin G., it's okay, I didn't think you were being serious. Just wish you didn't feel you had to explain it. You know you sound a little like a guy who used to post around here, but he was a little better at the same routine. No offense. He even did the "to my fans" sort of thing too.

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06 Feb 04 - 01:11 PM (#1110845)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: PoppaGator

To jimmyt: Clinton proposed, and Congress passed, the "Hope" tax credit, up to $1500 per year for tuition/fees applied to the first two years of post-secondary education. Obviously, the word "Hope" is also used for Georgia's in-state education-financing program -- which sounds similar to Louisiana's Taylor grants for students at in-state univeristies. But, please note that there is a federal education tax credit also called "Hope." Parents or first- and second-year college andf junior college students (as well as the students themselves, if they're self-suporting) should know about this and take advantage. (If you use a computer program like TurboTax, you will be prompted to

I'm not going to get into the Cuba controversy.

One other comment I'd like to add is that I agree with dianavan that college-level education is a desirable thing in and of itself, whether or not it results in increased earnings. And, in fact, a degree does NOT always guarantee a high income; I would guess that, in these days of rapidly increasing tuition costs, that a bachelor's degree is less and less likely to "pay for itself."

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06 Feb 04 - 02:59 PM (#1110896)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt

Poppagator, I am aware of the Hope Tax Credit developed in the Clinton Admin. WHat we have in Georgia is pure grant up to full cost in state schools plus additional funds for books and supplies. you are, by the way, exactly correct in your premise that a bachelors is not necessarily a road to higher pay. I have 2 daughters, both Registered Dental Hygienists, who make at least twice as much as my son who is a social worker who graduated with a 3.5 in Chemistry and has a masters now. A lot of it hinges on filling the niche that is present the old supply and demand bit. Life ain't fair.

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06 Feb 04 - 04:02 PM (#1110927)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp

Nope, it ain't. All you can hope for is to have a few friends who are.

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06 Feb 04 - 04:51 PM (#1110969)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jacqui c

Thank you Kevin for that comment. short, sharp and to the point.

Martin - I think you were probably joking but what's wrong with natural body hair? We don't ask you lot to shave those bits, do we? I remember seeing photos of Julia Roberts with hairy armpits. Isn't she American!!!

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06 Feb 04 - 05:49 PM (#1110996)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin gibson

dianavan: I already have the lifestyle I want and have a well-paying corporate position that leaves me wanting for very little. True about the the university ticket. I'm working hard to put my kids through college.

jacqui c.: I really don't find Julia Roberts that hot. Nothing as appealing as a woman with that natural body hair growing under her nose, I suppose either.

Fred Miller: I'm not that other guy, but I wish he was still around.

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06 Feb 04 - 06:48 PM (#1111034)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: lady penelope

The means to live comfortably or in luxury has always been the deciding factor in any civilisation. All The British did was make it a formality, that they hung on to long past anywhere else. It has always been about money. Even Jesus commented on this.

Pubic hair or no pubic hair is merely fashion.

TTFN Lady P.

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06 Feb 04 - 07:38 PM (#1111066)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

M.G. Ha! Me too, every now and then, slow days.

But if I'm right, and according to me I usually am, you're more or less the same guy, especially insofar as Who cares. I named him Jose', I think. Would it be really rude of me to call you Jose'?

   Local Trivia! There was a movie called Lawn Dogs shot around here in Louisville, and it's pretty darn good, and a little weird.It was written by Naomi Wallace, who's Dad is or was a big wealthy communist here. Friend of Castro, apparently, but anyway. But Naomi's plays do very well in England, a little less so here. If you get a chance to see it you can kinda tell she's very class conscious, in a peculiarly formal way, and has people here say things that they really never would--I've been in those houses, met those people. Not that there isn't class, but it's quite different. Still a very good movie.


College is just college. It's silly to expect you'll necesarily get paid more. Nothing especially unfair about that. Most of us don't really need more than we have, so screw us and our whining about it.

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06 Feb 04 - 10:27 PM (#1111146)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan

Martin gibson: what about the kids who do not have a daddy that works hard to "put them through college"?

I'll bet you also have the money to buy them a car and a computer, too.

As a mature student with two teen-aged kids, I had to compete for grades with kids like yours. They went home everynight to a home cooked meal, a brand new computer and many opportunities I did not have. I also graduated with a debt of $50,000.00. I chose to do this and do not regret it but...

Get a grip. I doubt if you or your kids would have the motivation, the savvy, or the determination to put yourself through university if you had to pay for it yourself. Tell your kids to get a job and put themselves through college - then we'll see if you have a broader perspective.

d

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06 Feb 04 - 10:47 PM (#1111150)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

dianavan

I DID put myself through college, and yes I bought my kids a computer and one has his own used car. You should be lucky you went to school with kids like mine. They raised the bar for YOU. My kids repsect me and are greatful for what they have and they express it to me. I don't know why your kids did not have a father. Could be for many different reasons which you may or may not have had something to do with. However, you have no right to tell someone who has more than you honestly, to "get a grip." If syou think you do, I then have the right to tell you to quit whining and feeling sorry for yourself.

Fred, I'm not Jose, Joe, Joseph, or Joey. Martin will be good enough.

Lady Penelope, pubic hair isn't merely a fashion. It's something that gets caught in your teeth.

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06 Feb 04 - 11:06 PM (#1111160)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan

Martin Gibson - whether or not my own children had a rich daddy is not the issue (actually they didn't, and none of us had anything to do with it). I already said I didn't regret it. Thats hardly whining.

Actually, I set the bar for your kids. Its not so easy to get by on Daddy's help when there are people like me challenging them to think. Many profs express their gratitude to mature students with real life experience. Otherwise they're left with the rich kids with daddy's like you.

It usually means the scum rises to the top. Bush is a good example.

d

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06 Feb 04 - 11:54 PM (#1111177)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

Martin, then, sorry. Did I forget to mention that I don't care?

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07 Feb 04 - 09:44 PM (#1111655)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Art Thieme

I know Martin. Let him rant--'cause what he says, or indeed, he himself, just do not matter any more than his one vote. George Bush is out there showing people what the world will look like when everyone thinks like Martin Gibson. Seeing him in the full daylight is the best assurance that the youth of the USA will realize those views ought to be put to rest. Every generation needs to see that danger for themselves though. That takes a little time. Then, eventually, an Emiliano Zapata or a George Washington or an F.D.R. comes along. When the kids are ready to hear what it means to be truly humane, those lucky enough to be alive then will live through the best of times instead of those worst of times Kipling also wrote of. It's those "worst of times" that turned the old Chinese saying, "May you live in interesting times" into the proverbial CURSE that it is.--------- I prefer May you live in the best of times. That's a matter of luck, mostly. Then, those others we decry here, hopefully, will be long gone !

Art Thieme

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07 Feb 04 - 09:58 PM (#1111663)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

I know Art.   Has-been folksinger from my hometown.

If you are going to dish it out, you have got to take it.

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07 Feb 04 - 10:48 PM (#1111686)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Art Thieme

M.G.--I'm still just trying to do my part.

This Cafe is a great place to spew polemics---for all of us. On we go doing what we can as we view it from where we sit---sort of like the Martian rovers. Intelligent---but not really in a human fleshy way----here in cyberspace drilling into the rocks and spinning our wheels in completely alien soil. Looking for water---dry as hell--like the old Sons Of The Pioneers song. But if they find what they're looking for, they can't even taste a drink of it. But I would like to shake your hand. Send me a P.M and we can figure a way I'll know you. You'll know me. I'm the large bearded gray-haired man in the wheelchair who has, as you said, seen better times music-wise. ---------- Say I forget to say where we can meet. How about Fred Holstein's memorial at the Old Town School Of Folk Music. That's April 3rd I think. Keep it confidential and don't say here in this thread how I'll know you. Just send the P.M.

And you are all too correct...

Yes, I'm one of the has-beens--a folksinger I mean,
I used to sing folksongs--and I used to pick clean,
I made the the notes flow like the soil from the plow,
But you may not believe me---because I can't do it now.

Art Thieme

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07 Feb 04 - 11:15 PM (#1111693)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Bobert

Well danged! A big ol' "duhhhh" from this ol' hillbilly. Iz been saying this fir the last two years 'round here and everyone jus' ignorin' me.... But...

.... now it's in vogue. Excuse me but where were you folks a year ago?

Yeah, welcome to the US of A. The new Third World country.... Peasant class at the top and bottom.... John Lennon knew of what he spoke!

Yeah, I can see a time when the "haves" of the haves/have nots equation are afriad to leave their compounds. No more taking to the roads with their $600,000 RV/buses with the car in tow 'cause some guy who has lost his job witha couple kids in college decides to shoot out a few tires of these Republican rich folks who think they own America.... Yeah, and then the rich folk find temselves increasingly isolated and living behind walls, much like the black men that they have incarcerated in the name of corporate profits...

Think about it.

As the Globalists have brought in cheap labor from South America they have been bust building prisons fir the Black men that used to do the work that tyhe incoming Hispanics are performing.

Like what is wrong with this picture?

Hey, I don't care if it took some of you folks to start to figure it out... The imporatnt thing is that you are starting to see what is going down...

Boss Hog MUST (excuse my yelling) be stopped from killing the USA...

What stupid people.

Waht kind of America are they willing to live in after they have bankrupted the middle class?

Bobert

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08 Feb 04 - 02:37 AM (#1111729)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan

Martin Gibson: Why do you think you have more than me? I've been a professional for quite a long time now and wonder why you think that a corporate cog has more? More what? Material crap? Land? Oh you are so full of assumptions. I am willing to bet that my net worth is far greater than yours but that isn't the point of this discussion.

So, your kids are full of great, are they? Do you mean grateful? Why not? Its easy to say, "Thank-you, Daddy." Actions speak louder than words. We'll see what they decide to do with their lives and how much gratitude they show when they find out that "daddy" won't always be there with the cash to back em up...but maybe you will be. You won't be the first corporate cog who tries to buy love. Around here we call them Johns.

Somehow I think I probably have a whole lot more than you do. I have friends and family that care about me whether or not I pay their tab. Get a grip! ...and yes, I do have the right.

d

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08 Feb 04 - 09:47 AM (#1111842)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

I don't know Martin but I know when somebody is going around in the manner of a teen-age troll, no matter who they imagine they really are. The point is that "Martin" and most of his posts could've been invented by that kid, just for fun. So I choose to take them that way, rather than contemplate an alternative.

The only thing worse than whining is bending over backward to kiss one's own butt. One may deserve things, and one may even have some things, but it's still probably just a coincidence, a bit of luck. Personally I'm from the Hamlet school, and think most of us deserve a good whipping.

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08 Feb 04 - 10:47 AM (#1111876)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Amos

Hey, Martin:

You just been bitchslapped for cause, pal. The unexamined life is not worth living, as they say. There are parts of yours -- not your salary stub -- that need a review.

Mine too, now that I think of it...


A

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08 Feb 04 - 11:54 PM (#1112230)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

Martin hasn't been hit anymore than he hoped. He knows there's a thread about body hair, but he comes along here just trying to annoy people, even doing that old To My Fans bit. I don't know about Dianavan (who sounds like a nicer person than me to take Martin at face value) but I mean no offense to him, or to the vague existence I provisionally grant him for fun and amusement.                                                                I'm not yet convinced he's ever bothered to think whatever he thinks he thinks, so why should I go to the trouble. If he actually thought what he thought he wouldn't need to look for a fuss, and wouldn't be so predictable. He would have something interesting to say about it that I couldn't make up as a parody of "some guy like that" and it wouldn't be just a joke. (Almost there, in my opinion.) People on all sides of things like to suppose they are tough-minded when they are being hard-headed. Wouldn't most of us entertain a different idea if somebody had something interesting to say for it? Hell, I'll shave my legs and underarms if I hear a good reason, it's not that hard. I'll even congratulate myself for having come into some money lately, but I'm not very limber as to kissing my butt about it.
   Martin, man I already know I'm full of crap, so don't bore me with the news. But that stuff was some of my better crap damn it, and if you can't see that, you must be taking me more seriously than I do.
   I used to think that spare change from wealthy idiots was a useless gesture of false help to the underclasses, but that was based on figures that grossly under-estimated the amounts of spare change and the number of wealthy idiots who have it. People should do it.

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09 Feb 04 - 01:38 AM (#1112265)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan

Martin: I blame myself for bothering to respond to your crap.

I work on a team and they know me well. I am useful because I'm tough and can usually nail people on their bullshit but...every once in awhile I get a kick under the table or a whispered, "don't bite, let it pass." I have to remember to save my energy and pick my battles. Some people are not worth the effort.

Fred and Martin and Amos: Thanks for alerting me.

d

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09 Feb 04 - 01:46 AM (#1112266)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: The Fooles Troupe

Some cleverwit has just noted something interesting about Education in Australia.

The cost of a good private Secondary school that will give one a good chance of entry to University in the entry test is about $120,000 AUD over the period of attendance.

But now you can BUY a place at university without a good TE score, for $30,000 for a Commerce Degree.

And take into account the loss of income from teh save capital, etc, does this mean the end of private Schools in Australia? :-)

Robin

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09 Feb 04 - 09:14 AM (#1112475)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST

whatever happened to working one's own way through university..thousands have done it and survived. Is that out of fashion , politically incorrect or just a dumb notion ?

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09 Feb 04 - 09:42 AM (#1112508)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST

In the South of Uk at least, the rents are astronomical and the odd bar job won't pay the bills anymore.

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09 Feb 04 - 01:03 PM (#1112649)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Chief Chaos

The poor can do what the poor have always done.
Join the military and spend four years learning a job which they can take with them into the private sector if they decide to leave after their tour. They can also get the GI bill which has just been revamped to make it more worth while (you have to pay for it though which is the biggest problem because they take $100.00 per month for the first year, just when you are paid the least and likely need it most). Another problem is that earning the GI Bill and being able to use it are two different things. It's gotten harder over the years because of abuse. There are some states that are offering a full four year scholarship for joining the state Nat'l Guard. The military also offers college credit for on the job learning and performance and the different special training courses which we can attend.

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09 Feb 04 - 01:43 PM (#1112677)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: DougR

ANYONE living in the U. S. that wants a college education can get one. True, it won't be handed to them on a silver platter, but it is available. How? Work for it! Our constitution does not guarantee success or happiness. It guarantees our right, the right of everyone to pursue it.

And Bill D., your remarks to Martin. A bit like the pot calling the kettle black it seems to me. These threads are jam-packed with similar generalized opinions it appears to me. They only draw criticizm, though when the writer's opinion does not jibe with majority opinion on the Mudcat.

DougR

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09 Feb 04 - 04:09 PM (#1112774)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Don Firth

"ANYONE living in the U. S. that wants a college education can get one. True, it won't be handed to them on a silver platter, but it is available. How? Work for it!"

When I first enrolled at the University of Washington in 1949, the quarterly tuition, as I recall, was $53.00. There were a few additional fees that amounted to maybe another $10.00, and textbooks averaged about $25.00. I lived at home with my parents (about ten minutes from campus) and my father financed my tuition. We were doing all right, but we weren't rich. When I returned to the U. of W. to study music in 1957, quarterly tuition had gone up to around $75.00. I paid for it by teaching guitar in the evenings.

The cost of everything has risen considerable (at least ten-fold) in the decades since then, but the cost of education, at least at a state university, has multiplied by about seventy times during the same period. Undeniable fact. Do the figures.

Current quarterly tuition requirements at the University of Washington:—

In State Tuition: $3638.00
Additional Required Fees: $777.00

That works out to $13,245 for a school year, assuming attending three quarters and taking the summer off. This doesn't take into account textbooks which, these days, can run an extra couple hundred dollars per quarter.

The schedule of fees for attending the U. of W. is much longer than this, including room and board if one wishes to live in the dorms. That runs $5844.00 per quarter (in the early Fifties, it was about $50.00 a month). But I included only the absolute minimum of what a resident student (having lived in Washington State for a minimum of a year) has to ante up when registering. Tuition for someone from out of state is $12,029 per quarter, plus the Additional Required Fees of $777.00, and he or she would have to either live in the dorms ($5844.00 per quarter) or find a nearby apartment (going price for a studio apartment within reasonable distance to campus is about $800.00—if you get lucky).

And this is a state university. Not a private school. Not Ivy League.

Let us assume that I'm eighteen and fresh out of high school. Let us also assume that I'm a good student, but not hot enough to qualify for a scholarship or grant—and being relatively sane and not much of a gambler, that I'd rather not graduate from school with a $40,000 to $60,000 student loan debt hanging over my head, especially when a fair percentage of today's university graduates find that there is a scarcity of the jobs they have prepared for out there (more than just factory jobs are being "off-shored"). The only way I could go would be if PhD ("Papa has Dough"), or if I could get a part-time job that paid me adequately to cover my school costs. So what is "adequately?"

Assuming I find a job that allows me to work full time during the summer and part-time during the school year, and assuming that I live at home with my indulgent parents, and assuming that I allow myself $25.00 a week spending money (out of which comes lunches, any CDs or non-textbooks that I might want to buy, bus fare to and from campus if I don't live within walking distance, an occasional cup of coffee between classes, etc., don't date, and otherwise have a highly limited social life), I would have to have a job that pays me a minimum of $12.00 an hour.

Now, where is an eighteen-year-old kid fresh out of high school going to get a job that pays $12.00 an hour, with a boss that will let him work part-time during the school year and full-time during the summer? He could maybe get a job throwing hamburgers out a window at passing cars, but those jobs only pay about half that. Well, of course, he could get two jobs. But when would he go to class? When would he study? When would he sleep?

How would you advise me, Doug?

"Our constitution does not guarantee success or happiness. It guarantees our right, the right of everyone to pursue it."

True. But there are countries in Europe where I could go to university for no cost and get a really excellent education. In at least one of the Scandinavian countries, depending on what courses you want to take, they will pay you to go to school, because they consider it an investment in the future of the country. I don't really expect egg in my beer, but why can't the richest country in the world do a little be better in this area than it does?

Don Firth

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09 Feb 04 - 04:30 PM (#1112787)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Chief Chaos

People (especially those on the right side of things) tend to forget the preamble to the constitution:
We the people (all of us, not just the rich and powerful)
In order to form a more perfect union (more perfect, meaning there are flaws and problems to overcome with the way things are)
Establish Justice (set laws to protect all)
Ensure domestic tranquility (Ain't gonna happen if the haves have and the have nots have not)
Provide for the common defense (i.e. the military which kind of throws the 2nd amendment in stark relief as far as that nasty little sentence which actually says for a "state militia")
Promote the general welfare (do for others who can't)
Ensure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity (meaning all those who follow - not just "our" kids)
Do ordain and establish this constitution (possibly rendering this document more important than the constitution itself)
For the United States of America

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09 Feb 04 - 04:48 PM (#1112797)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Oh the angst! The angst of it all!

dianavan,Fred,Amos. please try to enjoy life as much as I do. Amos, if I've been slapped, they missed. I never said I was wealthy. You've just assumed it. I make a good living and can provide nicely for my self and my family. I work for a fine corpoation. I play music with fine people frequently.

Amos, my life is totally under control and I am having a ball!

dianavan, It is I who have always had a fine perception for bullshit.

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09 Feb 04 - 05:17 PM (#1112818)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Don Firth

Bravo, Chief Chaos! Well said!

Don Firth

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09 Feb 04 - 07:44 PM (#1112917)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,satchel

Chief Chaos (although I do largely agree with him) needs to remember that the constitution hasn't always been what it's cracked up to be. Let's not forget that it originally contained numerous protections of slavery, to say nothing about women's voting rights until the second decade of the 20th century.

There's a larger issue at hand here, and I hope that I can shift the debate away from vilification of Martin Gibson, or anyone else above.

Why is it assumed that college is correct for everyone. The world needs plummbers, so to speak (who are likely to FAR outearn many college graduates, even at the masters and PhD levels). The fact that in this country, everyone is expected to go to college has so diluted the process that a BA is roughly the equivalent of a high school diploma, an MA is the new bachelors degree, and a PhD means that you might have some inkling of what's going on in your field.

There are plenty of people in college for personal growth, which is great, but there are also plenty there who are just doing it because they're tracked into it. Some of these are rich kids partying on daddy's money for four years, but others go to great financial effort to struggle through, for no real benefit, personal growth or otherwise.

Most of the northern European social democracies have varying levels of education, trade school, industrial, professional, and managerial education--in other words, JOB TRAINING, that actually do offer some assurance that one's education will correspond with one's job.

The World War II generation rightly considered a college education a way to get ahead. It's not like that anymore because just about everybody does it.

The trick now is to demystify higher education. There are plenty of people who don't belong in college. They shouldn't take up the space and resourses that someone who really wants to be there, regardless of income level, could be utilizing. I'm not saying that folks should become slackers, just that they should take the training that will give them the job they really want, and if they don't know what they want, working before deciding serves both them and the serious studnets in college far, far better. If college not for them, there's really no shame in other occupations, which leads me to my final point.

America has always been a classed society, because someone needs to do the manual labor. To suggest that the millions of non-college educated workers are somehow being deprived smacks of classism itself. It's the same kind of haughty superiority of a college education that created the attitude that has so glutted the system with people who shouldn't really be there. Even if every manual laborer in America earned a college degree, someone would still need to do that kind of work, even if it meant increased immigration. That manual labor still has plenty of value, and shouldn't be slighted just because the laborer didn't have the opportunity to go to college. Maybe his or her children will, thus continuing the patterns of immigrant generational betterment occuring in this country since its inception.

So, I ask again, why is it assumed that college is right for everyone?

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09 Feb 04 - 08:12 PM (#1112929)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan

Satchel: I do not assume college or university is right for everyone. I do, however, think that if someone has the motivation and desire to go to university they should be able to do so without incurring a massive student debt, especially if they have proven aptitude. I have watched too many young students struggle with the burden of two jobs, university classes, homework, student loans and small children. Nobody said it would be easy or fair but that shouldn't stop us from demanding equal access to education.

I agree that at this point in time, a trade is far more practical and with so many tradespeople soon to retire, it is definitely needed. I also believe that there are many at university who are only there because of parental expectations. Young ladies looking for their Mrs. degree and young men who just want to party with dad's money.

Martin - You'd better hang on to your image of "provider". Without that, who would you be? Must be tough for your family though, always fearing that if they disagree they might be cut-off.

d

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09 Feb 04 - 09:21 PM (#1112958)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

dianavan

You want more? I'll give you more. Nothing wrong with being a provider, something my family and my WORKING PROFESSIONAL WIFE and I do as a partnership working hard in jobs that we were educated for. No one is going to get cut off by me or her. So please go back to your little mournful, "Oh my children have no rich daddy so pity me" Helen Reddy I am Woman self.

I'm not head of my family, I'm a partner in it, but you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Please go try and find a boyfriend or something and get over it.

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09 Feb 04 - 09:53 PM (#1112977)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

Martin I don't want to get mixed up in other things you have going. I haven't meant to say anything about your personal life which I don't know anything about. I just can't take seriously your rude little hit-and-run posts, and think it's nice if you take the time to say what you have to say, whatever it is.

I'm having a pretty good time. There are a lot of thoughtful posts on this thread, and a few funnier ones.

College isn't the only aspect of class though, and even if something is possible it still might be more difficult than it needs to be for some, easier than it ought to be for others. There are all sorts of cultural biases that many of us have, and some of us practice. It might never be made fair, true, but an attitude of smug complacency about it never did anybody any good, and keeps turning out to be bad business strictly by the numbers.

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09 Feb 04 - 11:12 PM (#1113003)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Chief Chaos

Satchell,

I agree that college isn't right for everyone. However, many years ago, before I joined the military, I tried to find jobs which I could learn as I went. Unfortunately to be a mechanic, plumber, electrician or anything that payed decently you had to have four years of experience and own your own tools. No-one that I called could explain how I was supposed to get four years of experience and money enough to buy said tools if no-one would hire me.

I do know plenty of people who were hired just on the basis of having a diploma.

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10 Feb 04 - 12:58 AM (#1113038)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan

Actually Martin, my children have two rich daddies and a step-daddy. I have lots of boyfriends. Many I have known for 20-30 years.

Isn't the point of this discussion the caste system in America? Haven't you proved it exactly? Of course you think a caste system is perfectly O.K. Most nepotists do.

I would never suggest you "cut your children off." The point is that there are some that have parents that can afford to send them to school and for the others it is hard work at minimum wage, long hours of study and numerous financial hardships.

The strength of our nation lies in meaningful employment. As the chief pointed out: for some it means "joining the military" (it might mean risking your life), for some it means a huge debt load upon graduation, for others it means showing up for class. The alternatives are pretty grim.

Honestly Martin, do you really think people are perfectly content to pick fruit for the rest of their lives? Do you really think people are content with worrying about how to pay the rent and how to put groceries on the table? Are you afraid of poverty Martin? Do you think it might rub off? It isn't a disease, you know. Do you know what fair means, Martin? Impossible perhaps but worth striving for, I'd say.

d

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10 Feb 04 - 02:38 AM (#1113059)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: SueB

DING!

Ladies and Gentlemen, the bell has sounded the end of the third round (or was it the fourth?) - and the fighters have returned to their corners, so let me take this moment to remind you of the Rules of the Bout:

This fight is scheduled to go twelve rounds, a fighter may not be saved by the bell, and in the event of an accidental headbut before the fourth round the fight will be declared a draw, after the fourth round the judges will go to the scorecards to determine the winner.
As you should have been informed by the referee before the match, points WILL be deducted for low blows and intentional headbutting, after the second point deduction the fighter WILL be disqualified.

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10 Feb 04 - 07:30 AM (#1113186)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST

I see no reason why young people feel obliged, at age sixteen or seventeen to go right into college. Many could work for several years and try to save some of the cost of University. Also, we need to keep in mind that the benefits of a University education really ought to be paid for by those who reap the benefit. Oh, I know that society as a whole does benefit. However, individuals also do quite well as a result of being well educated.
   I guess I am just a little tired of those who want the public to pay for personal choices. Getting an education is hard work and we all need to understand that Public Funds are finite. At what point do we tell people that public benevolence is not up to making a lawyer, doctor or engineer of you...that is your job.

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10 Feb 04 - 08:36 AM (#1113234)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST

Educate. agitate and organise.

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10 Feb 04 - 09:26 AM (#1113280)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST

Educate whom ?
Agitate why?
Organize What?

I hate slogans, I guess.

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10 Feb 04 - 09:49 AM (#1113298)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,satchel

I guess that part of my point is that lamenting the "classed society" we live in makes the condescending assumption that anything but the top "class" is somehow bad. Class is how societies have been organized, even in the so-called communist world, for most of human history.

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10 Feb 04 - 10:53 AM (#1113356)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

Still don't see the point of airing one's good fortune as if it proved some point about society.

That's a good point about getting experience for jobs that require it. Even with a degree in art, I had a hard time getting a job in museum art shipping as a driver, and had to go to one of those truck driving schools. Had to watch a safety film about falling asleep, which pointed out that sleep was an issue in American society going back to Nathaniel Hawthorne's story of Rip Van Winkle--I couldn't stand it anymore and announced that Hawthorne didn't write Rip Van Winkle goddamnit Washington Effing Irving did. An awkward silence ensued.

I don't necesarily want the public to pay for college or personal choices. But I wouldn't mind if some CEO's paid also for some of their personal choices. If we had a maximum wage we probably wouldn't need a minimum. The public pays for a lot of things that nobody whines about endlessly, things they should at least reckon in balance. People complain about assistance to the poor but not so much to the wealthy. The national flood insurance that goes to rebuild ritzy hotels on beachfronts where nobody would build in the first place if it wasn't for the handout of national flood insurance is huge compared to the spare change people whine about because it goes to the poor.
   It doesn't add up, people just begrudge help to the poor and not to the wealthy and that's the way it is, for cultural reasons of complacent stupidity. People hate and fear the bum who might get ahead of them, and kiss the butt of the bum who already has. If it weren't for the fear and hatred people would probably see good and bad, here and there, just a bit more fairly. I don't hate the rich, but I can see they aren't quite that much better than anyone else, and you can see it in the mistakes they make in executing their responsibilities. The proportion gets out of hand, with childish celeb worship. Impressionable people are impressed. Thoughtless people think it's how things are and always will be, but no, it isn't. Many things get better just because little bits of sense and decency start to add up.

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10 Feb 04 - 11:42 AM (#1113405)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt

I have been trying to formulate a comment to this thread, but it has taken on a tone of flaming that is not relevant to the original comments regarding whether or not education should be free.

I have just finished Fred Miller's comments and I have to say that I think it was very well thought out, and I cannot find fault with it. I agree that I personally get annoyed when I hear of some well meaning program that has gone terribly wrong with the corruption that seems inate with humans, and I bitch and moan and gripe about my damn tax dollars that have been thrown away for something worthless.

I also have encountered many many times people who are working in government agencies with huge attitude problems that I cannot help but believe are related to the fact that they are in a government position and by god they don't have to smile or be pleasent.

I do believe what Fred says , that we all seem to turn a deaf ear to the horrible injustices that are evident in society, ie the flood insurance, the terrible misappropriation of funds by corporate ceos, padding their golden parachute contracts before declaring bankruptcy and not giving a damn about the thousands of employees that are now out of work through no fault of thier own.

I do, however, still think that providing a college education should be at least a partnership between the institution, the student and some means of providing grants and low interest loans. I cannot see how we could provide a free education to everyone with government funds without passing this onn to the taxpayer, thus, IT AIN"T FREE!

I paid for my education myself. I borrowed money, worked multiple jobs, my wife worked (we had three children at the time and yes it was hard as hell but we did it, and never once thought someone should pay for this for us) I think people tend to appreciate things more if they have to work for them. Having said this, I still believe that in the present situation, the cost has risen so high and the possibility of earning a portion of this is getting farther and farther apart. Perhaps does anyone agree that either extreme is bad and a middle ground is the best solution?

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10 Feb 04 - 08:52 PM (#1113691)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Raedwulf

Drat!

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10 Feb 04 - 08:55 PM (#1113693)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Raedwulf

Despite double checking I still managed to screw up the HTML! :o If one of the Clones would care to tidy me up & toss the extraneous bits in the bin, everyone else can have a good laugh at at my expsense. My excuse is that it 2AM over here!

I die from embarassment (Naaaaaaaaaaaah! ;) ).

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10 Feb 04 - 08:58 PM (#1113696)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan

Yes, I do agree that individuals should be responsible for paying at least a part of their education. It is now becoming impossible for a great many to do just that.

Re: low paying jobs versus high paying jobs.

As an average citizen, who do you think should be paid more: The doctor or the garbage man?

They are both responsible for health. Why should there be such a large difference in their pay and their status?

Thanks, Fred, for your sanity.

d

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11 Feb 04 - 12:12 AM (#1113756)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

Well goddamn. This must really be some of my better crap (I just said it was to needle Martin a little.)I was just hoping not to get on your bad side Dianavan--it makes me blush to be considered sane, I don't get that a lot.

Jimmyt, I haven't talked to you much since that little party in cyberspace with Little Hawk. We met poorly, but it was all right. I'm glad to share any common ground with you, and posted my pictures just on your account. Yeah, I'm an old fashioned liberal, but being brought up that way naturally makes one want to think a little the other direction. I'm still trying to get the big picture, and I really enjoy talking to people with different views.

   Except when they throw out a bumper-sticker and walk off. But then sometimes one has to joke around a bit to get warmed up, I guess. It's hard to hit just the right degree of rudeness to be fun and stir people up--but I'm glad that people do it, because people come out a little more, and it's good to have a place to lose your temper with people, isn't it? God, it's like that rush when you quit a job.

   It must be hard to be a conservative on a folk music forum. If you really knew all the people it would probably be different.

   I guess my bumper sticker for this thread is lately I feel pretty lucky, and I'd like to think that the few little half-decent things one can do will add up, like raindrops making a flood. No--better scratch that one. Um, I'll have to get back to it.

My Dad went to Berea, here in Ky, where everyone works to go to college. He grew up about 15 miles from Black Mountain, the other experimental college, but it wasn't interested in the locals,or the community, and it's long gone. I think Billy Graham owns it now. My wife and I wanted to go to Berea, and looked into it, but we had a little too much money from our parents. I guess we were disadvantaged, in a way.

    I should admit I didn't have to work in college--it was all my parents wanted for us. Well, and that we'd be writers (no luck there). I was a High-school drop-out, I did have a 3.89 college average, but without much else to worry about, which is huge. I have never had a job since college that didn't involve some heavy lifting. I like doing it, but I'm getting old. I have a marriage that is a partnership, and I'm lucky to, because I'd most likely be dead by now without it. My wife has no idea what a good person she is and I don't want her to find out. That's my deal.

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11 Feb 04 - 06:49 AM (#1113895)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Buffy the Hamster slayer

What if................. Hamsters were 8foot tall? Oh, sorry, wrong thread.

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11 Feb 04 - 01:33 PM (#1114186)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Wolfgang

As an average citizen, who do you think should be paid more: The doctor or the garbage man? (dianavan)

What do you mean by 'more'?
More than now? I'd say the garbage man and not the doctor (at least in our country)
More than the other? Surely the doctor and not the garbage man.

If you pay more for jobs for which nearly everybody is qualified than for jobs for which only a few are qualified, you'll get a complete chaos. We had a society close to us in which the payment was in no meaningful way related to the qualification. It went backrupt.

Wolfgang

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11 Feb 04 - 02:09 PM (#1114213)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt

dianavan, I would wonder if you would prefer your heart surgery to be performed by a highly paid cardiac surgeon or one who was paid the same as the garbage man?

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11 Feb 04 - 02:47 PM (#1114247)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt

Let me explain my last comment so it doesn't sound rude. It seems that when people plug in a real life scenario to a situation, it frequently changes their perspective on things. I am suggesting that in order to insure that we have the very best qualified people performing such things as thoracic surgery, managing a complex multiple system medical crisis, etc. it is important that the rewards for this type of work (monitary) be high enough so that the right folks get attracted to even aspire to become specialists in teses type medical areas. I know if I need disc surgery (which I recently underwent,) I take comfort in knowing that the surgeon has been chosen from a fairly large pool of folks who for whatever reason didn't make the cut to become a neurosurgeon. I would not take comfort in knowing that my cutter didn't get in to garbage man training school and has decided to take a go at becoming a surgeon.

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11 Feb 04 - 05:12 PM (#1114353)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Chief Chaos

JimmyT - I know alot of people who were unable to become doctors because the cost of medical school was beyond their abilities to work for or for their parents to pay for or both. Funny thing is, we have more plastic surgeons in this country than we do heart surgeons. Who's getting all this plastic work done? The people that can afford it!

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11 Feb 04 - 08:06 PM (#1114495)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt

CHief Chaos, you are correct that there is a big demand for plastic surgery. It is market driven, and apparently people would rather look good than feel good in AMerica (I suspect other places as well) but unfortunately that is the world in which we live. Back to the other comment you made, I still have a hard time buying in to the concept that some people cannot become doctors because of finances, because it is in fact quite a bit more expensive to go to dental school than medical school, and I did it, with no parental support, no benefactor, three children and a working wife and lots of student loans. By the way, the student loans I borrowed were not at the 5 or 6 percent that the students can now borrow, but during the late 70s and early 80s rates were so high that I was paying up to 19.33 percent on the last $10,000 I paid. I borrowed a total of $78000.00, and the final payoff was arounf $250,000 by the time I paid it off 10 years later. I am willing to listen to anyone's ideas about why things are bad, or why someone cannot achieve, or whatever and make an honest attempt to understand the logic, but facts are facts, I actually have walked the walk. It can be done and it is done every day by folks who do not accept the barriers, but focus on thier goals.

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11 Feb 04 - 09:59 PM (#1114554)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Chief Chaos

JimmyT - I congratulate you on your accomplishment but I don't see how it does anything but prove my point. Not many people want to start out a new life approx. $250,000.00. As a matter of fact I haven't owed that much through the accumulated debt of my entire life. Three children and a working wife? Not a debt that I'd want to take on for anything under those circumstances. And actually, we were talking about single persons having to work their way through college. Most people try to go to college right after graduating high school when they are least likely to have a decent job, or have a spouse with a decent paying job (I hope it was a decent amount and that neither you, her or your children had to sacrifice too much, and being in the military myself I hope that you know I am very sincere in that).

I am not talking about a free ride here, I think that working your way through college is a good idea. However I had a few run ins trying to keep myself out of debt and go to college at the same time. The professors would every so often assign too much work to accomplish while working the max hours possible to make the max $$$ possible. I believe that college tuition is getting outrageous. I'm also pretty firm on the idea that you either need family connections or a degree to get a really decent job (at least right off the bat.

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11 Feb 04 - 11:30 PM (#1114590)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt

Chief Chaos, I cannot but agree with you that tuition is absolutely outragious and I would hope to see steps taken to help get this in control. I do what I can by supporting scholarship funds at three different colleges with hopes that someone out there who really needs a break for a few hundred dollars or a couple thousand to help them through a rough quarter has an opportunity to get some free money. I never thought about the debt service I was taking on, only on the goal I had set. We did receive medicaid and food stamps during this time as my wife had a job that paid only a bit more than minimum wage. Had I failed and never graduated, I am sure I would have had to spend the rest of my life paying my way out of it.

I am not bragging here, I feel that lots of things lined up correctly for me to enable me to accomplish my dreams, but I guess the point I am trying to make is that if you don't try, you are destined to not succeed. I find it better to have dreams and goals and plans than to be told and made to feel that there is no hope. I am truly a very fortunate man. I thank God every day for allowing me the opportunity to succeed, but in the final analysis, I had to help make my dreams come true by actions.

I have a young lady that worked for me for 12 years, had a family of three children and a husband who is a fireman. She attended night school in addition to working full time for me until she got her core requirements to apply to Dental Hygiene College. Last year, she also was diagnosed with breast cancer and had to undergo chemotherapy and a mastectomy. She continued to work throughout this time and only took one semester off school. She was accepted in to the program in September and I am happy to say that she is nearly halfway through the program and will graduate with honors in April 2005. She will them move from a job making $14 per hour to one where she will probably start at about $35 per hour. She never lost sight of her goal, and because of this and nothing else, she will succeed. Does this always happen? No it certainly doesn't. Is part of the reason the high cost of education? Yes I will grant you that. Is part of the cause the deplorable low wages available to students? Yes I will also grant you that. Can you agree that the lack of success can also be attributed to not setting goals? to Not attending class? to generally not being willing to make the effort? I have to say yes to that also, because I was a student like that until I wised up and got my life plan in order.

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12 Feb 04 - 12:25 AM (#1114601)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan

Chief Chaos and Jimmyt: You are both right!

I too, was one of those who succeeded despite the odds. Its not impossible to get a degree without parental support but it means a huge debt load and long hours of minimum wage work while studying.

The point is that there is an ever widening gap between the rich and the poor. Even with that degree in hand, the jobs usually go to family and friends (nepotism), not necessarily the most competent.

d

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12 Feb 04 - 09:03 AM (#1114819)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt

dianavan, I couldn't agree more with you on that one. I had been working as a supervisor in a steel mill in the mid seventies, and had a creew of 35 men working for me. Well, the mill closed and moved south to a cheaper work force, and since I was unemployed I decided to go back and finish my degree, at that time, in music. I was working part time for a dentists doing maintainence, yard work, etc and he also had a high school kid who worked sort of under my guidance. ONe day his daughter, a bratty little nineteen year old kid who had never worked for anything in her life came by the ofice and saw this and said to me, "I bet it is kind of fun playing the boss to that boy, isn't it?" I could have rung her neck. I still have a hard time identifying with people who have never had to work for their money. That includes all the little spoiled rich kids as well as the ones who have figured how to ride the system and get stuff for nothing.

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12 Feb 04 - 01:10 PM (#1114986)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

People who don't work don't know what they're missing. But it's amazing how many ways we can find to mess up and aggravate the satisfaction of a good sensible job.

I've done heavy lifting for fifteen years and never missed a day for an injury, but every kid in pseudo-management thinks they should tell me how to do it. Can't these people shut up? Can't we just respect a job for what it is? What is it in us that makes us smug and nasty? I try to make sure my kids notice anybody doing a good job. My daughter remembers the sales clerk at radio shack (good), and the crew of bone-heads at Home Depot (it was a happier simpler time, before we ever went in there).

   As a troubled kid going into college I didn't have the courage in myself to pursue anything with particularly heavy responsibilities. I think a doctor should be paid more than a garbage man because it's a whale of a job, even if the qualifications were lessened, which they often probably could be, for many basic things.

   In education we're increasingly trying to codify trust in people to do things we don't understand ourselves, and can't do for ourselves. It's expensive in other ways too, when we can't trust anyone.

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13 Feb 04 - 12:00 AM (#1115126)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan

As an average citizen, who do you think should be paid more: The doctor or the garbage man?

There really is no right or wrong answer to this question. It depends on your perspective.

Personally, I'm not convinced that the surgeon may be anything more than a spoiled, rich kid who cheated on his exams, schmoozed with the old boys and was set-up by his daddy.

I don't think it is necessarily because he deserves more money or status. Some doctors are worth their weight in gold, others are narrow minded and misinformed.

d

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13 Feb 04 - 09:52 AM (#1115236)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

Well, I had to see 5 doctors over two years to reach the obvious conclusion. The first four weren't very interested in diagnosis, just wanted to sell me whatever the daily special was.) One Doctor gave me a coupon with a mail-in rebate. Every member of my immediate family has been slated for an unnecesary surgery, some twice. Here, have a complete mastectomy, a hysterectomy, let's put a steel rod in your ankle, whatever. Bernard Shaw pointed out a while ago that the same system that gives a baker an interest in baking good bread for you gives a doctor an interest in cutting off your leg.
   It's just like looking for that one person at a company who's keeping up with anything. You remember their name and always ask for them. Then one day you call, and they've left. Good for them, you wish them well. You can't do that forever.
   Does anybody tip garbagemen? I never have, but was told that most of them refuse promotion because of their routes, and tips. Surprised me.

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13 Feb 04 - 02:33 PM (#1115370)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

dianavan, you obviously have a hard on for people who work hard and make more than you do. Have you considered seeing a shrink? Worse yet, how can you go through life with such a chip on your shoulder for people who work in corporations and maybe catch a break in life.

All of your whining here about people who pick fruit for a living and are suffering so terribly is really getting nothing accomplished. No one is forcing them to do it.

Maybe you will catch a break one day, but I don't think you are hanging around with the right people.

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13 Feb 04 - 04:44 PM (#1115406)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

Quite wrong Martin. Some people who pick fruit in this country are, yes, actually being forced to do it, in the precise sense of slavery, and the corporations who use them employ a middle-man so as to deny involvement or any responsibility. Although they do profit from it. So you're misinformed on that. It's been in the news a lot. Guess you missed it.

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13 Feb 04 - 06:00 PM (#1115449)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST

Surgeons...spoilt rich kids, who cheat on their exams and are set up by their fathers??????????????????

I supose the seven years minimum hard slog and common 60 plus hour working weeks whilst in training, before they choose their specialism is easy peasy lemon squeezy?

I think they may get caught out somewhere along the line, were they freeloaders as is being suggested. There are always bad apples, but I think that surgeons probably have far fewer in their midst than the above comment warrants.

When the bin men are on strike , we do cope, albeit smellily. The same would not be the case if the surgeons downed scalpels.It is within our capability to get some of the refuse to a local dump ourselves, if need be. I would not want to perform brain surgery.

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13 Feb 04 - 07:09 PM (#1115523)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,.

Speaking of debt load, I had $300 left to pay on my student loan but when I moved out of NY state we both lost track of one another.

NYSSMA the generous state educational loan people then parlayed that $300 by selling it from bank to bank until now - when they claim with interest and fees I owe $40,038.14 on that $300.

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13 Feb 04 - 10:48 PM (#1115630)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt

guest, so now you know the miracle of compound interest!

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14 Feb 04 - 12:48 AM (#1115656)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

My point about garbage men and doctors--actually I don't think I originated the comparison to doctors but was thinking of some other professions, I think I said interior designers, who I happen to like to poke fun at. The larger point is lost in quibbling and over-the-top remarks. The larger point is simply reasonable proportions are not reached by market forces alone, unless people take things at least a little bit seriously, and try to make the decent choices they can. Not just one or a few decent choices that you wear like a damned halo, and act smug about, but just a bit of civilized concern--that helps, I think. It's not their fault, or their fault, it's the conglomeration of our own little daily faults, fed into the machine of the economy.

I'm afraid people will think I posted as Martin, just to contradict him. Why mention fruit pickers at all if you really don't know about the slave trade in it? It's hard to believe. But what's the point in debating the question, whether this stuff is real or not? If it is, Martin, you must have your head so far up your butt than one can only hope it will pop out on top again of it's own volition, someday. Nobody can help you with it--there's no point in blue-clicky articles or throwing the facts at you if you don't quite give a rat's ass, anyway. Look into things for yourself. Even if a good row with someone makes you feel more certain, you aren't, and don't actually know any more than you did, just because you attacked someone else. I think your crude manner betrays your neediness and doubt (I try to let my neediness and doubt speak for themselves) If you are for real, it's hard for me to picture, since everyone I know personally is less bitchy and cartoony. Especially the ones who enjoy life so hotdamndadgonedingdang much. It doesn't sound very much like you do. Sounds like something's gnawing at you.

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16 Feb 04 - 01:28 AM (#1116743)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

Well I've already killed this thread so I might as well rattle on. I'm writing a thing that involves class in the u.s., a comedic thing, and I don't get tired of the subject.

   Guest, people do get by without garbageworkers for awhile, but they also got by without decent brain surgeons for most of recorded history. We've learned to torture ourselves with all sorts of hopes, and to feel it's our fault or somebody else's if someone dies when we don't want them to. Nice. People will live and die, one way or another. I don't mean to diss the moral courage and skill of good doctors in the least, but the thing that fascinates me is how unimaginable possibilities turn into paramount necessities as soon as they are considered remotely possible. How quickly we take things for granted, or oughto-be-granted, as soon as we hear of them. The music-recording possibilities I have on this computer--to think of that, back in the 70's! Now that I have it, it just seems like such a hassle--why doesn't it come with a talented dude to deal with it for you? Who can also cook? Actually, a woman would be better, a real cute one. etc.

   On the one hand I side with the point that people who have particular values, and have focused on them, and achieved, are very much to be commended. But I also feel that they are a bit fortunate already, and that the idea, here, is that those people give back what they can. Every focused thing you can do is a little bit funny when compared to everything else you could do, or could've done, instead. Our ends are limited. No new car is quite as good as the feeling of having someplace you want to go. If you have that, you'll drive anything that will get you there. Except for the extremes of thoughtless abuse, and the awful damages of it, "class" is really kind of funny.

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16 Feb 04 - 07:20 PM (#1117310)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan

Fred: The "need" for services and goods you mentioned brought to mind a true story.

When I lived on an island of 300 people (no electricity, city water or car ferry) we had no doctor for the first five years we were there. As a result, people focussed on preventative medicine, diet, herbs etc. We also gave birth at home, helping each other. There was no problem we couldn't deal with.

Finally, a doctor came to live amongst us. He even built a cute little clinic that was open two or three days a week. Well, all of a sudden everyone needed a doctor. His clinic was full every day it was open. It was if the entire community forgot that we once took care of each other.

Go figure...

d

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18 Feb 04 - 12:11 AM (#1118152)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L

yes, dianavan, that's the kind of thing I was trying to talk about. It's my favorite subject, I think, but there isn't a word specifically for it.
   The closest thing I've found is Risk Homeostasis. Which is just the tendency of bad things happening at about the same rate despite our advances against them. If you design a ladder that people can lean out farther on, they will, immediately, and they'll get hurt about as often as without it. But it's still not exactly what I'm thinking of.
Class is a lot like those people who hurry to pass you on the interstate, then they slow down. As if they can only feel their progress in relation to somebody else, regardless of how fast they go, or wherever the hell they're going. It's a kind of social idiocy. Most social things are one sort of social idiocy or another, my favorite is the tendency of dumbass people to want to be in everybody else's way. Once you start watching it, you can't stop. It's amazing. Better than any so-called "reality" t.v.

Education is similar, because if what people really lusted for was education, there is a public library, where the greatest luxuries of the world are free, at least for those who did learn to read passably, and can get better with practice. But we want help, and a stamp of higher approval on top of what we could do for ourselves. It's fun to stamp things, and cool to achieve badges, any kid knows that.

                           *
   I was a royal butt-head today. At an art museum I was telling my kids and their friends that these Yoruba "doors" weren't really doors but just 3 decorative panels, (which is the best scholarship I know of) when some guy leading a tour group suddenly told us Yes they were doors. I asked how a three-part door without any hinges worked. He said Don't ask me and I said I don't really think I did.

    Why do I need to be so rude to this Joe Art? Why do I enjoy how even the stupidest rudeness of other people draws other, more interesting people out? The good reason is probably that interesting people are too reticent by nature, the bad news is probably that I'm just messed-up in my head.

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18 Feb 04 - 12:23 AM (#1118154)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Metchosin

Re education Fred Miller, I couldn't agree more, its The Glass Bead Game (Magister Ludi). Not very many people get it and jump in the lake and swim away, its a hard pattern to refuse.

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18 Feb 04 - 11:27 AM (#1118454)
Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Daithi

Ah Martin - great fun! However forget this pointless trivia regarding so called education.
What REALLY matters is that you are factually incorrect regarding your comments about hirsute British women. I have spent over 30 years conducting an in depth (sic) survey and of the many with whom I have shared a bed, not one has neglected to shave legs and armpits. Obsessively, in some cases. Or were you simply referring specifically to those 9few) British women who do noit shave, implying that you would be quite happy to co-habit with the rest of them?
Or maybe you are getting them confused with all those hairy latina women on the continent of Europe?
Would such a confusion reflect on the American college education system do you think - or am I just being an offensive, small minded, smug bastard? Like your good self, for example.

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