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07 Feb 04 - 05:39 AM (#1111277) Subject: BS: A grieving thread From: Rustic Rebel I'm not one who really shares my feelings too much. I'm not a cry in my beer kind of person normally, but I tell you folks what, I have been going through this thing of death so much this past month I am almost exploding with a kind of grief I have not experienced ever before. This past month I have lost my dear friend and washtub bass player (Mike), another beloved friend who played electric washboard (John), 2 friends that I loved dearly (Harley and Jeff),and tonight another friend (Henry)who died of heart failure, and he wasn't found for 3 days.When he was, he was found dead in his snow plow truck out doing a job where the owners weren't around. I am trying real hard to deal with my losses. And loss is what is in my heart. I am at a loss. I am in pain. I am dehydrated from tears. I have been doing a wrong to the MOAB, by sharing my grief and I can't continue to wrong the MOAB with an un-bullshit because that just ain't the MOAB that I have grown to love and adore. Now if I may get to my point.... I'm not looking for sympathy or compassion. I want to talk about how we deal with death. I have always believed in a spirit, A soul that goes on, an entity that never dies. I have never been one to take death to serious because I don't fear it. Yet I am so saddened with the loss of my friends, I feel hypocritical and selfish. Selfish I can deal with. Yeah, I lost a friend (actually just too damned many recently). I won't have those friends around anymore to deal with my shit. To love me for who I am. Ya know, a friend. But the part that gets me is the overwhelming sadness I feel. I am trying to deal with that. I know in my heart they are still out there so why am I a hypocrite and think I lost them??? Oh such a dilemma!! Ok. I have said too much. What are your thoughts? P.S. Please don't post your sympathies- your thoughts are what I'm after. I love you all. Please don't die on me tonight!! Love, Rustic Rebel in state of death related confusion. |
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07 Feb 04 - 06:23 AM (#1111284) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Rustic Rebel, you don't want sympathy, and I understand that, but you're going to get a lot of it! I too have had a devastating loss- not as many as you, so close together, but one that has shattered my life and changed it forever. And I too have done a lot of thinking and grieving and feeling- and although no two of us experience the same kind of loss, we can share an understanding of what we're going through. Like you there is no doubt in my mind that the essence of a person goes on after death. Like you I have no fesr of death, and in fact I realize more and more that this life here just ain't all there is- in fact, I'm beginning to think we're here as a sort of "boot camp" to get us ready for the next big thing- this is only a small part of what it is to exist. But like you I'm in deep grief. I don't grieve for Byron- I know he's at peace and going on, and also with me in a way I can't often percieve. But I rage, weep, sob and mourn the loss of the short time we had together, and especially the future I fully expected us to share. We had found each other after our own respective "boot camps" of various relationships, learning the hard way about loving, and felt that now we finally had a chance to show the world and each other what a fully mutual, loving, equal partnership was, alive in spirit and soul and body and mind. Since he died of a massive heart attack at age 56, just 4 months ago, I have had to deal, over and over again, with what I often see as the unfairness, arbitrariness, and sometimes cruelty of fate, even as I strive to keep my faith that "we'll understand it all by and by." So, grieve away, my friend. You know that your friends are fine- grieve for yourself, because as much as we believe that there's more out there, this is all we're allowed to know right now. And I do believe we're here to learn about love in all its forms, and that includes mourning the loss of companionship, friendship, acceptance, and love in their earthly manifestations. We have to grieve- it's not hypocritical at all! You have to let the feelings come, so you can emerge out the other side. I know I'm becoming a better person- more patient, less likely to "sweat the small stuff"- and I'm still in the depths of my grieving time. I can't imagine what it's like on that other side I just mentioned. But I have hope that there is one, and I get occasional glimmers. You are in my thoughts and prayers, and you are welcome to PM me any time. Take care of yourself. Give yourself permission to grieve. Cry if you can. And know that they still love you! Allison |
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07 Feb 04 - 07:25 AM (#1111302) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: GUEST And a youth said, Speak to us of Friendship. And he answered, saying: Your friend is your needs answered. He is your field which you sow with love and reap with thanksgiving. And he is your board and your fireside. For you come to him with your hunger, and you seek him for peace. When your friend speaks his mind you fear not the "nay" in your own mind, nor do you withhold the "ay". And when he is silent your heart ceases not to listen to his heart; For without words, in friendship, all thoughts, all desires, all expectations are born and shared, with joy that is unclaimed. When you part from your friend, you grieve not; For that which you love most in him may be clearer in his absence, as the mountain to the climber is clearer from the plain. And let there be no purpose in friendship save the deepening of the spirit. For love that seeks aught but the disclosure of its own mystery is not love but a net cast forth: and only the unprofitable is caught" I thought you might find this comforting, Rustic. The author is Kahlil Gibran, from The Prophet. I am so sorry to hear of your loss, and I am keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. PM me anytime you like ok? daylia |
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07 Feb 04 - 07:36 AM (#1111305) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: *daylia* Oops, sorry I forgot to sign in before I posted above. And I meant to post these suggestions ... A Time for Grieving. Looking over that poem again, I'm not happy with the line ... "When you part from your friend, you grieve not." Seems to me only a heart of stone wouldn't grieve a friend's passing! Maybe Gibran was only trying to offer an alternative perspective for dealing with a friend's absence. daylia |
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07 Feb 04 - 08:37 AM (#1111326) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Tinker Okay, no comforting or sympathies, just how do you cope. Music, reading, journaling and lots of tears. I find that the unfinished dreams and plans (the ones had together or mine I never shared) are the parts of my soul that take longest to heal. (And that circle back unexpectedly.) Writing in a journal, bits and pieces of my reading that resonate, even if I don't quite get it right away.... anything that brings me to tears again. And for me the hardest thing is remembering that tears and sorrow are okay. Our culture expects us to "carry on as usual" when the times are anything but usual. I try really hard (not always sucessfully) to cut myself some slack. This passage comes close to how I attempt to understand and move. It's from Clarissa Pinkola-Estes' Women Who Run With the Wolves Tears are a river that take you somewhere. Weeping creates a river around the boat that carries your soul-life. Tears lift your boat off the rocks, off dry ground, carrying it downriver to someplace new, someplace better. There are oceans of tears women have never cried, for they have been trained to carry mother's and father's secrets, men's secreets, society's secrets and their own secrets, to the grave. A woman's crying has been concidered quite dangerous, for it loosens the locks and bolts on the secrets she bears. But in truth, for the sake of a woman's wild soul, it is better to cry. For women, tears are the beginning of initiation into the Scar Clan, that timeless tribe of women of all colors, all nations, all languages, who down through the ages have lived through a great something, and yet who stood proud. Rustic there's nothing hypocritical about the fact that your life has been irrevocably changed ( and you had no say in the matter) and the very people you turn to to put things back together aren't there. I have absolutely no doubt I'd be pissed as hell at fate for handing me all of that to deal with, and desperately struggling to find a new safe harbor for awhile. Maybe the hardest part of all for me is giving myself permission to deal with "old crap" that comes back up when the soul doors open and everything seems to be playing musical chairs. Patience is not one of my better virtues. Well, Rebel, I hope this is what you were looking for, it's the best I can do to put words on a journey I long ago gave up understanding. Hugs, tinker |
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07 Feb 04 - 08:47 AM (#1111328) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: bbc Dear RR, Don't be too hard on yourself. What you are experiencing is not hypocrisy, but 2 sides of the same coin. When you say you believe your friends go on, you are speaking from your mind, your intellect. The terrible loss that you feel, however, is from your emotions. We can control our thoughts much better than our feelings! It is normal & appropriate for you to feel as you currently do; any person would. You have had huge chunks torn suddenly & unexpectedly from your life! I have not experienced the kind of loss that you & Allison have, but I do have some experience with loss & disillusionment. I have found that, when I feel the pain, it is best to acknowledge it, let it flow over me, & let it go. Spend time with loving, supportive friends & family when you can. Immerse yourself in positive activities. Give to others, but expect that, periodically, pain will revisit you. Over time, if you accept it, it will lessen in frequency & intensity. In the process of that acceptance, you will become a more understanding, compassionate person with more to give to others from this experience. Another idea to consider is to resolve to live in the present moment. The past is gone; it cannot be remade. The future is yet to be. Do the planning that a responsible person must, but don't borrow worry. We are just given one moment at a time; make each count for yourself, your friends, and our world. Your friends who've passed on will be pleased that good has come through their passing. One more thought that may seem silly. My son recently introduced me to the Broadway show, "Rent." In it, a group of people are going through hard times--relationship issues, money issues, drug issues, loss. They come to some positive conclusions in their struggles. The song lyrics are very interesting & the music, although it is rock, is great. It won the Pulitzer Prize for drama in 1996. The writer, ironically, died at 36 of an aortic aneurism. You might like to look at the following website. http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Strand/8508/rentmain.html BTW, I had written out my whole post & lost it when I went to make the link to "Rent." I hope this rewrite will be helpful to you! You have value in the world. Thanks for trusting us enough to share. As others have said, if you wish, feel free to PM me. Best, Barbara |
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07 Feb 04 - 09:16 AM (#1111338) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Amos Knowing as you do that dead is not gone is no reason to assume there is anything wrong with grieving; loss is loss no matter where the thing lost goes. But the notion that we can't communicate with someone because their body is dead is untrue and unuseful. Very often you can find someone (in the mental or spiritual sense) after they've died and you can continue communicating with them. The best thing youcan do is seek to complete all the undelivered communications and things that should have been said that weren't. Grief itself, though, is there to feel and experience, and when you try not to have it it will wait around until you do. So giving yourself permission to do that is important. Not to wallow in but simply to feel what is there, discover how wide and far it extends, and move through it. Hope something here helps. A |
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07 Feb 04 - 09:18 AM (#1111339) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Allan C. Deep in my heart I wish I could celebrate death. I want very much to see it as an extension of life, just another compartment of it. The world has been full of philosophies, (that of the Mayans comes to mind,) which embrace death as the glorious pathway to what is next. When it comes right down to it, I can't. I cannot get beyond feeling cheated of the time I might have had with the one I have lost. Certainly time has been my enemy for as long as I can remember. I grew up as a Navy brat and all too soon came to realize that the people I knew, the friends I made, would eventually be left behind. No amount of letter writing could ever put them at my side again where I could share moments of joy or pain. They were gone and I would never see them again. After a while I would make new friends; but I knew that before very long time would run out on my father's tour of duty and these, too, would be left behind. Thus I spent most of my early life mourning the loss of my friends. Time was clearly my enemy. I despised it so much that to this day, I hate to wear a wristwatch. I hate that it reminds me that even more time has passed. I hate that it reminds me that each passing moment brings me closer to being robbed of the continuation of my friendships, of my loves. The good news is now that I am an adult I am no longer subject to the whims of the Navy. I can and do visit distant friends, no matter where they are. But time still rules. By way of the deaths of my parents and my best friend as well as the losses experienced by other folks I know, it continues to remind me that it is in charge. And I continue to hold a grudge. If nothing else, it is contrary to my sense of fairness that I can be cheated of the time I might have had with those who mean so much to me, those upon whom I can rely. For that loss of time, the most valuable time I can imagine, I will always mourn. |
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07 Feb 04 - 10:15 AM (#1111363) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: CarolC You have to grieve RR, whether you want to or not. It's just one of those things that we can't avoid. It's a part of being human, and a very necessary part of life and loss. I wish that were not the case, but it is. So you needn't feel like a hypocrite if what you're experiencing doesn't seem to be in keeping with what you believe. I had a year of too many losses a couple of years ago, and it hit me pretty hard. I share you views about life after death. But that didn't make the losses any easier to deal with for me. Be gentle with yourself. Experience your pain and then let it go. Allow your friends to comfort you. If you can feel the presence of your lost friends, enjoy it to whatever extent you can. I'm very sorry for all of your losses. I'll be tinking about you, and you too, Allan. I hope things will begin to improve for both of you right away. |
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07 Feb 04 - 10:33 AM (#1111377) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Bill D All I do is process and remember...everyone I have lost helped make ME what I am today, and so I guess they are somehow always with me. I try to look at all the other emotions their memories bring up, whether love, silliness, anger, amusement...whatever...and process THOSE until the integrated memories gradually replace the feelings of loss and sadness. I guess nothing but time and the necessity to honor them by remembering and keeping on with keeping on will make it any easier... |
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07 Feb 04 - 12:49 PM (#1111433) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Rustic Rebel Allison, Daylia, Tinker, Barbara, Amos, Allen, Carol and Bill. I am awe inspired at you folks. You are the beautiful people that make the Cafe so special. Allen what you said about celebrating death is a feeling I do believe in, that is what I meant when I said I feel like a hypocrite. Because, instead of celebrating it, I am grieving it, but with all the words on the posts above I am feeling a change about that. In that aspect I understand why Kahlil said, "grieve not". I want to say more, but the posts above have left me weak all over again! When I get it together I would love to talk more philosophy of death, in the mean time thank you all and I would still like to hear your thoughts about the subject. Just where do we go from here? (smile) Love, Rustic |
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07 Feb 04 - 01:39 PM (#1111447) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: SINSULL Losing a loved one makes our own mortality too real. I sometimes am angry at those who have gone before me. They know what I can't know because I am alive. They know for certain what if anything comes after life. And if there is something worth dying for, why don't they share the knowledge with me. Maybe, the reason is that there is nothing. What a terrible importance that places on every moment I live. Or should I simply enjoy it? |
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07 Feb 04 - 02:11 PM (#1111465) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: katlaughing What incredible messages of sharing and support. I love Mudcat! RR, that seems like a lot to deal with all at once. I am glad and we are honoured that you have shared and asked for input. Thank you. I find grief terrifying, at times. It confronts me at the oddest moments and brings to a full stop. Partly I think because of what Sins said about it forcing our own mortality on us; and partly because it is just so damn sad. At those times, I despair of my heart ever being healed, both physically and emotionally. I have gone through the grief of losing close family members, including my mom, but not of a partner nor close friends, yet. This may seem trivial because it involves grief over persons who are still alive, but the other grief, the kind which really terrifies me, is that of thinking I may never see my far-flung children again. That's when I know I am getting a wee bit over the top and need to have a tremendously dramatic cry, then pick up the pieces and make myself do something...usually I write. One thing I've found very helpful throughout any loss or any highly emotional experience, is to write a letter to each of the persons involved, including my own "higher self." I then put the letters away and let the thoughts go. A few days later, I may get them out and read them again. If it feels right, I then burn them in a releasing ritual. I find it reassures the mind and heart of communication with all involved. For questions about the "other side" and the actual experience of death, one of the books I is From My World to Yours written in 1977 by Jasper Swain, a man who lost his teenage son in a car wreck in South Africa. His son came through and told him to write the book. It can be of great comfort to anyone who has lost someone, esp. in an abrupt and seemingly violent way. what really helped Mr. Swain was the fact that his son said he and his friends, who were also killed, were taken out of their bodies just before the point of impact, so that they did not feel all of the horrible pain, etc. Swain was very much the skeptic, a lawyer, who didn't believe any anything like this before the book came about through interesting events. It is a good book. love you, kat |
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07 Feb 04 - 02:31 PM (#1111479) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Big Mick OK, RR, I will give you my thoughts on your post. It seems to me that you really need to deal with your own thoughts on death. I seem to hear you rationalizing what death is, having it all figured out, but when it comes visiting like it has recently, it makes you angry. I know what I do when human frailty comes crashing full force into my intellect. For me, I head to my hill with my Low D and start to play. I try to clear my mind and lose myself in the sounds of the whistle. And after a while, the Greatest One comes sneaking in through the sound and helps me sort it all out. You asked for our thoughts and these are mine. You have gotten hit with too much too quickly and our basic human insecurities are running on you. Find your version of the hill, take your version of the Low D whistle, and listen to the wisdom of those who have gotten away. Give yourself the opportunity to let the confusion clear, and clarity will follow. I am sorry for sounding so new age - ish, but I have been doing this for many years and it works for me. Mick |
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07 Feb 04 - 02:57 PM (#1111489) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: open mike If you read the messages we sent to Animaterra, Raptor and Allan, the sentiments are very helpful. I will be going to a funeral on monday for the 92 year old man who was a champion fiddler, who I accompanied in several contests. It is different when a 92 year old passes on that when someone younger does. I think there is apt to be more anger at lost time for someone who goes suddenly with seemingly years left to enjoy, share, etc. I find myslef wondering at these things--I do not know what MOAB is. and I cannot imagine an electric wash board! You must have had memories of your frineds and their music, and these are what to hold in your heart and mind at this time... I, for one, plan to continue making music to honor my mentor and to keep his memory alive! as Connie Kaldor says in a song : "I will go to a river and plant a tree, something strong wild and living cuz those are my memories..." I have found that music has helped me so much...when I am not able to speak my sorrow i can still sing, and to sing at a gathering, which we now often call a celebration of life, rather than a funeral or memorial service, has been a wonderful and cathartic thing. thank you for sharing your situation, and I am so grateful that we can meet here and share like this. Laurel |
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07 Feb 04 - 04:30 PM (#1111531) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: GUEST,JTT Rustic Rebel, you probably don't even want to hear this now, but the terrible tearing pain does go away. You want some help on what to do. The best thing I can suggest is that you find someone who needs your help, perhaps by volunteering in a homeless shelter or doing some work in a battered spouses' refuge. That's one of the three or four things that ease the pain. The others: walking in the mountains, swimming in the sea, eating with friends, meditation, singing. If you don't know any meditation techniques, here's one that someone taught me when I was under great pressure and it helped a lot. Sit comfortably with your eyes closed and breathe deeply. Now, breathe in; form the word or the figure One in your mind. Breathe out. Breathe in. form Two in your mind - this can be 2, in fancy or plain typeface, the word 'two' - whatever comes to you. Breathe out. Breathe in: Three. Breathe out. Go on - first one to three, then back down to one; then one to six, and back down; then one to nine, and back down; one to three again, back down, one to six, back down; one to nine, back down. As you do this, your breathing will gradually slow and deepen, and you'll become aware of the frantic chattering in your mind and the tension in your muscles. Let it go - don't force it, just let it drift in and out and go. I think this is called 'Zazen'. It saved my life. I hope it can help you. Warm thoughts going your way. |
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07 Feb 04 - 05:51 PM (#1111563) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Mudlark Rustic Rebel... When a loved one dies it is like losing a part of yourself. Even if they are walking the streets of gold in heaven, the loss for you is the same. My own philosophy regarding death is based on compost, and that is good enough for me...intellectually. But when I found my husband of 40 years dead one morning nearly 3 years ago, the concept of compost was not much consolation. To be truthful, there was no consolation. Grief is physical, as well as emotional. There were times when it would hit me so hard I'd literally be knocked sideways. An avid reader since the age of 3 I couldn't concentrate on the written word for nearly a year, nor could I write, in any formalized way. All the music I loved, both to listen to and play, was too painful, every note, every word like a needle in my heart. Both memory and concentration took a knock, energy too. There are as many ways to cope with grief as there are copers. Bereft of reading, writing and music, I found escape in ways I'd never depended on. I watched more TV, fluff and comedies mostly, than I'd watched in the whole of my entire life. I played endless complex and difficult computer solitaire games. Anything that would engage my mind, without any direct association with the life I found myself in, so sad and incomprehensible to me. Coping with grief is not linear but is is cyclic. And the process takes so long that at times it feels like accepting the loss is impossible. But change, like waiting for winter to turn to spring, does occur. After nearly 3 years I am now beginning to find memories bearable, sometimes even pleasant. I am able to read again, I am writing, better than ever, tho I miss horribly my husband's editorial input, playing and singing. Life does go on, a fact that I found emotionally deplorable right after John died. How dare the birds go on singing, day turn to night amidst glorious sunsets, and my own waking, morning after sad morning. Treat yourself as you would a dear friend who was suffering great loss. You'd listen, let them cry, not try to shut them up or hurry them through the process, and you'd help them explore any escape from the pain they could find until time begins to take over. Give yourself time to heal in any way that is good for you. It will take as long as it takes. And eventually that's OK. |
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07 Feb 04 - 05:58 PM (#1111564) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Penny G. I wish that I could articulate my own thoughts for you on loss as some have done so well.People I have cared for stay with me and usually seem to return at ordinary times..when I am making coffee or looking at nature or listening to music..they pop in and make my day richer and make me feel more connected and less lonely in this big world...and for me this is a comfort and a blessing.. |
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07 Feb 04 - 06:19 PM (#1111568) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Peace Rustic Rebel, I seem to know somewhere deep inside that I will see my friends again. I can't prove that, so usually I just keep it to myself. The depth of feeling we have for those who have died is a clear reflection of the extent to which they have become a part of our being, thoughts, emotions and soul. There are those who will disagree with me, but I think I know better--at least for myself. I know you're not lookin' for sympathy. However, f I can be of help in the empathy department, send a message to me and we'll shoot the breeze. It would provide me the opportunity to return a kindness so many have offered and given me in times such as this. Bruce Murdoch |
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07 Feb 04 - 07:23 PM (#1111598) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Rustic Rebel The support here is overwhelming. I am okay. Really I am. I just told Allison the same thing in a pm. I have a lot of friends around and we are are going through this together. I think that's what happens when we live in a small town and know and love so many people. I know them for a long time and now they have moved on. Why so soon together is the mystery we are dealing with. And why so young? 4 out of 5 friends were under the age of 50. This early morning when I wrote this post, I had just gone through another emotional rollercoaster. Finding out about Henry and Mike's brother was faced with so much despair last night he went on a what seemed to be a death wish snow- mobile ride that ended him up in a tree. Thankfully he was alright and a friend and me were there to help him get through some of his pain. Mick you are right. I am trying to deal with my thoughts of death. I think I will find that hill for awhile and do some deep breathing! Funny when I almost died myself, a year and a half ago I joked about it and had no fear. I had less fear than my friends and family that were there with me. That could have been the poison in my system though! Laurel- MOAB is the thread The Mother of all BS, the one with over 2000 posts of BS! John played the electric washboard. It was really quite a simple set up of an attached pick-up to the back of the board. It's pretty cool. You can hear him play and sing on the tape "In Memory of David's Buick" by Bob Saar. Thank you all again. I am so appreciative of the support here on the Cafe and I think I will print this out and pass it on to others around here that don't have you folks! Love, Rustic |
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08 Feb 04 - 01:11 PM (#1111942) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Peace Hey, Rustic, As long as you're doin' OK. That's important to all of us. Love and peacefulness back to you. BM |
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08 Feb 04 - 02:08 PM (#1111987) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Rustic Rebel Thanks Brucie. Peacefulness. I like that word. I'm not going to funerals anymore.I am aggravated at funerals. I am tired of trying to be converted when I only want to go and pay my last respects. I can understand that the "sermon" is for comfort but when it turns to a convert or die in hell type of thing I get so aggravated. I am writing my wishes down, sealing them and going to a notary public. I realize that it may not do any good because once your dead you don't have much of a say in the matter but I hope I do. I don't want a religious ceromony. I don't want a viewing, I would rather my family spent the money on a party to celebrate my life and death (ah-ha!) and put me on a burning raft and send me down the river! If only that was still a legal thing to do! My old man wants me to drag him out into the woods and let the wolves eat him but I keep telling him I won't go to jail to follow his wishes. (I want to bury him, later dig up the bones and play him as a bone instrument that hangs by the fire pit-but I don't think the law will allow that either!) Yes Brucie, I'm back. Love Rustic PS. With all the insight and compassion the good people of Mudcat Cafe have, it would be cool to have a perma-thread on comforting friends. |
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08 Feb 04 - 04:26 PM (#1112053) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: bbc Paraphrasing the Bible, it says we are comforted to comfort others, not to sit around feeling comfortable. I think a lot of the meaning in enduring suffering in a positive way is the feeling that we can communicate some value from what we learn. Mudcat gives us an uncommon opportunity to touch folks we might never meet in person. Glad to be of assistance. best always, Barbara |
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08 Feb 04 - 04:53 PM (#1112065) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Bobert RR Having gone thru a little of this myself it is my belief that the spirits of those have passed linger strongly fir awhile and this is a time when you can hook up with them... Invite some friends over who also knew these folks and also invite these folks who have passed. Drink a little wine, burn some candles, tell some stories, sing some songs and know that your friends will be there with you singing and partaking... And sure, its okay to cry between the stories but I think you'll find some laughter to go with the tears... Bobert |
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08 Feb 04 - 05:55 PM (#1112088) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Raedwulf Please don't die on me tonight!! Nope, not planning on it. Deliberately haven't read what anyone else has posted. Have a more than odd attitude to death. Don't do sympathy (at least not how most people would define it). Bear this in mind when reading the following. Life is for living. The whole point of living, surely, is to be happy? What's the point of living & being miserable? So some of your friends are dead? So what? Are they gone? Hell, no! For a start, they still live in your memory. Oblivion is that no one cares when you die. If there are people who will remember me kindly when I am no more, my life wasn't wasted. Even assuming that the atheists/objectivists are right & that there is no afterlife. Now neither of us believe that, right? So your friends, now on the other side of life, are probably wishing they could give you a quick thump for being an idiot... Maybe not. Let me go back a bit. "What's the point of being miserable?" Actually, RR, you don't sound miserable & importantly you also don't use the word. Misery is not a pleasant place, but sad? Well sad implies remembrance, I always think, & moreover implies memories of good times (sad = regret, right?). Well, the good times are no more gone than your friends. Just temporarily displaced, if you see what I mean. You'll catch up with 'em sometime! ;) The "real deal" isn't death. As you've correctly identified, it's how you deal with it. Sadness is natural. It can even be pleasant (sadness & melancholy sort-of go together - both are gentle sorts of emotion). Everyone gotta go. I may be immortal (well, so far anyway...), but no-one else is. So we two must part sometime? It's only a big deal if you think I'm going to Hell & never the twain shall meet again, surely? Friends, real friends, don't die. It's just that once in everyone's life we are forced to move town. The bummer is that, in those circumstances, the phone lines are always down & the mail always gets redirected to the guy in NY/London with the same name, which makes it kinda hard to keep in touch... Don't even think about e-mail! ;) The problem here is loss, rather than death. If a ship at sea during a storm loses its anchors, it drifts. Your problem, I think, is that you feel that you're drifting. You're not. You've just lost a couple of anchors. You've still plenty to spare, not least demonstrated by the fact that you can come to Mudchat & talk. What you struggle to realise is that you've lost no anchors at all. Your friends are still there, they still love you; virtues, faults, & all. It's just that it's harder for you (not them) to feel the ties now. They're still there. So are those (friends & ties both) that you can still feel. Be happy for their sakes (all of 'em). Most especially, be happy for your sake! Chin up, & nils illegitimus carborundum R |
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08 Feb 04 - 06:13 PM (#1112093) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Allan C. We seem to spend a lot of time grieving. We grieve when we discover that our parents aren't perfect. We grieve over our lost loves. We grieve over dead or dying marriages. We grieve over having distanced ourselves or over having been distanced from/by friends or relatives (either geographically or emotionally or both.) We grieve over the deaths of those we have cherished. It is all the same process. I think it all has roots in one single thing: we feel cheated. After all, we had been happy with the way things were. It was our (conscious or unconscious) expectation in most cases that there was some manner of security; that those things would perpetuate for as long as we could imagine. We feel cheated that our happiness was taken from us. We react to these inequitable situations with sorrow and even with anger. This continues until we find some way to accept the unfairness of life. Often this can take quite a long time. After all, things that are unfair, by definition, go against all reasonable expectations. Thus, a tremendous shift in reasoning needs to take place in order for us to accept these aberrations. Since each of us has his own means of reasoning, it is nearly impossible to prescribe a particular method by which an individual might go about rearranging his most fundamental thoughts. This brings me to why I see great wisdom in Mick's suggestion that you "find your version of the hill, take your version of the Low D whistle…" What it comes down to is that each of us needs to discover the means by which we can meditate over this paradigm shift in our lives. Once we have found those means…well…it's just going to take a while. |
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08 Feb 04 - 07:21 PM (#1112132) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Raptor Rustic, Just before Christmass I loss my best friend, my lover, My girlfriend, My alli, My wife and my Everything. The ALCOHOLICS sum it up best "One Day At a time" Get a dog! My puppy demands all my time and refuses to let me think most of the time. He is always pulling at my pantleg, or bringing me shit to throw for him to retrieve, or being goofy to get me to smile. Right now he's triing to lick the deoderant from my pits! Without him and my good friends Like Little Hawk, dayla and 42, Along with the many loving people here on the cat I would not have been able to funtion! I didn't want sympathy either but when it came it felt great! David ( PM me if you want to shoot the shit) |
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08 Feb 04 - 07:40 PM (#1112147) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Peace I guess I ain't so tough. This is a beautiful thread, and I need something to wipe my eyes and blow my nose. Later. |
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08 Feb 04 - 07:49 PM (#1112155) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: open mike another breathing exercise is to breathe in envisioning all things negative--pain, violence, war, hunger, disease, etc. and on the OUT breath think only positive thoughts,,,,healing, joy, peace, happiness, etc and you might find you can transform the negetive to the positive within your self! I am glad that you are alive! |
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09 Feb 04 - 12:33 AM (#1112240) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Mrrzy Wow. Amazing to find this thread now. Rustic Rebel, my heart goes out to you. I'm going to grieve a little myself, here, too, if you don't mind. I had been intending to, anyway, but this is more appropriate. Thank you, RR. Tonight, I can't sleep because tomorrow I testify in the trial against the terrorist regime that killed my father lo these 20 years ago, back in the very first car-bombing of one of our embassies, this one by Ayatollah-following, Syrian-trained, Moslem Lebanese, who later began calling themselves (well, the group, not the individuals) Hezbollah. (Somewhere, there is a thread about his death and what it was meaning to me on one of the anniversaries. Somewhere else is a thread about the trial.) This evening was the prep session with the lawyers, and I had just been talking to one of my sisters about feeling that I was all cried out about this, what with the first part of the trial (where we sat in the audience and cried and cried and cried), and 9-11 (after which I went to a candlelit vigil and just cried and cried and cried, and people would bring me candles when mine burned down, I love my town), followed 6 months later by the terrible drunk-driving death of my favorite and eldest niece just after her 20th birthday, on MY birthday... perfectly unbruised, with seat belt and air bag, she hit a tree so hard she shredded her brain into separate pieces inside her unmarked skull, and her parents had to decide whether to pull the plug and then wait for her to suffocate after they did, which took days in both cases, it was horrible. So I thought I'd be OK in the deposition. But no, just telling them about the same things I've told others about, I couldn't not cry and cry. I cried about Dorian again too. At the same time this weekend, we had to put Mom back in the hospital yesterday, she got out of rehab in mid-January after 6+ weeks on a respirator not recovering well from her massive heart surgery (there is a thread about that, too). Since she's been home her feet have been swelling so much the skin was cracking, and now she has terrible infections in her feet and all the skin has come OFF and she is in so much pain she can't stand or walk and the home help wasn't enough any more, and the skin started coming off her knees and elbows and any place that cloth rubbed her, and and *I'm* the one who got (what a treat, right) to call 911 and spend 7 hours in the ER with her trying to get her admitted while they wouldn't bandage her feet till everyone saw them and the AIR was hurting so much she was actually weeping, and she a holocaust survivor and all. So it's been a fun weekend thinking about and talking about death. The main thing, I think, is that being atheists, we all believe that death is IT. There will be no more Daddy, no more beautiful Dorian, and Mom will suffer through this end all by herself, and then there will be no more Mom either. That makes the memory of the dead person, the survivors' memories of them I mean, critically important. I understand cultures that prohibit speaking the name of the dead to protect the living from their shades, or chindi, or whatever... it was well over a decade after Daddy died that I could have his name pop up in conversation and not burst into tears. I found out in the deposition that even my sister the lawyer, the most grown-up of all of us, still tries to take the 18th of April off every year - I certainly do, I spend the whole day thinking about how awful it is. BUT I also spend every August 16th, which was Daddy's birthday, thinking about how great he was, what a great father he was, how great my childhood was growing up in Africa because of him, and so on. It balances my year out - I mean, I *think* of him, and of him being dead, every single day. There is always something I'd like to tell him, or ask him. But I *concentrate* on building his memory twice a year, with the life-affirming stuff in the Fall, as the year is waning, and the death-resisting (defying? Resenting?) part in the Spring, as the year is growing again. It feels right to me that way. And since a fellow catter told me about the Beirut memorial in Jacksonville, NC, every other year when I go to NC to go to the beach, I drive by there and my twins and I put roses under the word Peace in the phrase They came in peace that is carved into it, and put roses on one of the 17 pear trees the town planted for the civilians in Dad's bombing (the memorial is more about the Marines). Meanwhile I resent tremendously that Mom is having to go through these throes alone, instead of with Dad at her side, where he would likely still be, they were only getting closer after 30 years of marriage, and his parents and grandparents and uncles and aunts all lived to be well into their 90's, Uncle Will was hit by a bus at 96, Aunt Bea thumped a would-be mugger on the head with her umbrella and when he fell down in surprise SAT on him till the cops came - at 98 - and still lived to be 100 and a half. Dad was ROBBED. WE were robbed. All our kids were robbed. Death may be natural and all but premature death BITES. I guess that's what I think about it. I'll tell you more after the trial tomorrow, if you like. RR, you hang in there, and talk about your friends as much as you can - that is all you have left now, the memories, they will have to suffice. I hope they are good ones, sounds like it, tell a lot of stories about them. I heard a new one about Daddy just tonight, a memory of my eldest sisters, probably from before I was born, of Daddy trying to play Superhero with them and diving theatrically onto the bed... which promptly broke under him, which they all thought was much more funny than he did. That is exactly the kind of thing I remember about him. We haven't gotten to the happy stories about Dorian stage yet, but I'm looking forward to it. |
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09 Feb 04 - 12:34 AM (#1112241) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Mrrzy Oh, yeah, and tonight the embassy in DC from my home country burned down. It never rains when you need it to... |
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09 Feb 04 - 05:59 AM (#1112352) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: AllisonA(Animaterra) A puppy! Raptor, how great! Funny thing- I've been thinking of getting a dog, too. Not a puppy, but a gentle friend to keep me company on walks, greet me joyfully when I come home- you know the drill. Mrzz, my heart is with you and your family. It never ends, does it? My father loves to quote lugubrious hymns and scripture snippets- "life is but a vale of tears" etc. I'm beginning to agree with him! But there's also puppies in it. And friends. And the Mudcat! Allison |
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09 Feb 04 - 07:41 AM (#1112400) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: GUEST Sadness and grief are very natural emotions at the loss of anything or anyone we enjoy. They are the balance to the intense pleasure we feel at and in their presence. We need the processes of grieving that you are going through for many physical, psychological and spiritual reasons, so go with the flow, let it happen. You can't short-circuit it or pretend its not happening and your grief is the salutation to your friends as well. If we love greatly we grieve greatly - they deserve both our love and our intense sadness. Physically, we release natural tranquilisers from the brain by our tears, not enough to stop the grief but crying often makes us tired - and sleep is healing. There are stages of grief and often it will take 12 months or longer to come to terms with a loss. That does not mean you stop grieving but you learn to live with it as a controllable emotion. It is also, frankly, a learning process for when we too die. To many its a comfort to know that others will honour us with their tears and heartache because that is their proof of how they loved us - and we all want to be loved. When people say 'Don't grieve for me' it doesn't make sense, grief is as natural as the joy they gave us. One of the most important stages of grief is when you can truly look back on all the good things with not one whit of regret and sorrow. We can't do this too soon, nor pretend that we're ready for it when we're not. Nor should we ever listen to those who say 'you should be over it by now' - No, each takes his own time, his own path to acceptance. On that day we look back and instead of saying we are miserable about the death of our friends, we can honestly say that we are happy and priviliged that we had so much of their wonderful lives. Lynda largelyhappy@hotmail.com |
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09 Feb 04 - 12:29 PM (#1112625) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: GUEST,MAG, away from home 11 years after my sister's death, I still have dreams in which she is present, and I think, oh thank goodness! It was all a horrible mistake. I am still working to the point where I am just glad she comes back to me in my dreams. I pay attention to my dreams. I still get mopey around her birthday, and then remember why. October 7 -- oh yeah, I can't call up Susie. Her death date affects me somewhat, too. I was in a grief group for a good long time. The counselor said to give ourselves as much time as needed; 3 - 5 years was AVERAGE. And not to listen to people who said "Aren't you over that yet??" They don't know. The stiff upper lip stuff is just crap. Be good to yourself. You need and deserve it. Being with other people who feel the same as you about the loss was/is the most helpful. (Except my parents, who are bound and determined to hang on the the hurt feelings until the day they die.) |
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09 Feb 04 - 03:46 PM (#1112767) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Rustic Rebel "I died a mineral, and became a plant. I died a plant and rose an animal. I died an animal and I was man. Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?" Jalal-Uddin Rumi (1207-1273), founder of Mevlevi Sufi Mrrzy, I weep tears for you now. Yes please let us know what is happening at the trial. I'm reading all these new posts with tears flowing. Not for myself but for the beauty that is in each and every one of you. I've said it before, this community we have here is amazing. At the same time I am listening to an old jam session with John (washboard extraordinary) and he just sang a line,"I may be right, I may be wrong-sure gonna miss me when I'm gone." No doubt about that John... |
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09 Feb 04 - 04:20 PM (#1112780) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Rustic Rebel Wish I would have added this to the last post but if you click here you can hear a short piece sung by John. Only takes seconds to download. |
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09 Feb 04 - 08:11 PM (#1112928) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: GUEST,Li'l Aussie Bleeder. I am not religious nor am I buddist. it is 13yrs since my 20yr old daughter had a fatal car accident. I still remind myself that her birth, life & death are HER Karmic business. However, every single day I still wish for her to walk through the front door. Head and heart seem to be disconnected on these matters. Dr. Kubla Ross (I read manny years ago) said something to the effect that grieving is equivalant to scrubbing floors for 8 hours a day. boy am I worn out. |
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09 Feb 04 - 08:30 PM (#1112940) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Allan C. Thanks for the sound clip, RR; but we've been hearing his voice through you ever since you started the thread. Clearly, he was a very special person. |
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10 Feb 04 - 05:37 AM (#1113121) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: GUEST,JTT I'm going to a funeral today. It'll be a non-religious one: just the children of the man who died suddenly (his wife thinks his heart bypass failed after 15 years) will speak, and there'll be a piper playing a lament. Rustic Rebel, I hate the ad breaks too - though at this stage I kind of grin and nudge myself when they start: "Xx was not a religious person, but at the end..." They're so blatant! The one good thing about this funeral will be that there is none of that. As for atheism, religion, all our ideas about whether some part of us survives after death - we don't know. My gut feeling is that something does. Other people's gut feeling is that nothing survives. There's absolutely no point in worrying about it, since there's nothing we can do about it. Raptor's right about the puppy, though. A puppy will demand your love - the love that's dammed up because the friends it belonged to are gone. If that dammed-up love doesn't get out it just rots there and corrodes you inside. If it's given - in tears and laughter, with walks and runs and wrestling - it'll pour out into the world where it belongs. And if you're getting a dog, also get Karen Pryor's book Don't Shoot the Dog (Amazon.com has it). |
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10 Feb 04 - 11:06 AM (#1113372) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Peace I've 'lost' a number of people close to me over the years. As I age, I perceive that I'm actually getting closer to seeing them again. I don't belong to any organized religion--it's an oxymoron, and none would have the likes of me anyway--but I think God and angels exist.And I come each day to recognize that we enter different states on this 'journey'. I don't feel atheists will have any answering to do in the next part of life, nor do I feel religious people will be automatically ushered to the front row. I think we follow a 'karma' of sorts, and that we will meet again in the bye and bye. And we'll bump into our loved ones, even if only for a while. I can't prove any of this, but then I don't have to. It works for me. Bless y'all. BM |
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10 Feb 04 - 05:25 PM (#1113595) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Escamillo My wife visits me in my dreams, very realistically. She always tries to comfort me, tells me that she is ok, kisses me, and leaves a peaceful feeling. Once she was walking fast and looked worried about something, and when I asked her where she was going, she only told me that everything was fine, and then I saw that she was going to my own funeral, but she was not crying. My brain does not rewind and repeat old stories, feelings and circumstances. It presents to me (to all of us) new things, unseen, unheard of, unexpected. Why? Where are those images coming from? Are they the result of millions of connections in a neural network? Imagination is conscious, dreams are not. These thoughts don't help to understand, but now I'm sure that when I die, my brain will not fail to me, and I will see her and go to her, at least for the last minute of semi-consciousness, and will feel that I meet her again. I'll not see any darkness. That will be enough. I am grateful too, to all Mudcat friends for their support. I wish I could do something more for all of you. Un abrazo, Andrés |
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10 Feb 04 - 05:43 PM (#1113607) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Andres, you are such a wise and comforting presence here- you do so much! Thank you for sharing your dreams. I have dreamed very little of my beloved, but I know he's near. I do wish for a vivid "presence" dream such as you describe. But like you, there's no doubt in my mind that he'll be there waiting for me at the moment of my death. Allison |
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10 Feb 04 - 05:51 PM (#1113610) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Jeanie Oh how I agree with you, Brucie. If you go and read my experience with my lost twin on the current "Dreams" thread, you will see why I agree. I will add, too, that no matter the circumstance, and no matter the length of time that has elapsed, no matter how much understanding and coming to terms that has happened, the raw emptiness and loss can sometimes grab you and catch you again, unawares. It has happened to me today. I dared to reveal the deepest experience of my soul here on that "Dreams" thread today and I find that it has saddened me so much that nobody responded to or acknowledged today the experience I told there. This comes, with love for all who mourn the loss of souls who were never destined to draw breath or tread this earth, but tried so hard to come here. With Love, - jeanie |
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11 Feb 04 - 12:57 PM (#1114162) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Mrrzy Arrgh, the trial. Turns out that we were the next-to-last family to testify, so it's over as of yesterday, at least the trial part. Now we wait for a judgment, and then we will wait and see if the judgment is honored, or can be honored. (They will either find and freeze and disburse some Iranian assets, or not.) The testimony itself was really hard - even my eldest sister, who didn't cry at all at the deposition, cried on the stand. Most of my sisters' kids came too, and they would cry whenever a grownup would cry, they said later. My Uncle Greg (dad's little brother) cried the most. Then we all went to our separate houses and when I checked with my sisters and uncle yesterday, turns out we were all basket cases... two just didn't go to work, I spent most of the day sleeping and weeping and missed by unemployment meeting, one went to work and sat at her desk and wept... today I think we are all OK. At the trial, Uncle Greg brought a poem that his daughter, my cousin, wrote called No Justice for Uncle Albert. Boyoboy, knives through the heart, what a poem, I *sobbed* and it was great, if that makes sense. I read it twice, crying and crying, and now only cry if I look at it - I'm reading it as much as possible, though, trying to get to the point where I can read it and not weep. Whew. There is another one she wrote after the OKCity bombing, very similar, wow and whew all over again. I hadn't seen the poem before, everybody else had. I cried for about 2 hours all over my new sweetie, too, which helped a lot also. The waiting for an answer reminds me of applying to schools - then all you can do is wait while your life is in someone else's hands. Except that there is an end date (you'll get an answer one way or another by the next semester), and it's fun and exciting - none of that is true for this situation. I feel as if I've jumped off a cliff and may never hit bottom. Meanwhile, Mom is getting better, and should be home soon, so that is also good. RR, hope there are some good things going on for you, too, in the midst of all the sorrow. Kinda like roses growing from a dungheap - don't try to smell them, but appreciate their beauty anyway. |
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11 Feb 04 - 06:18 PM (#1114404) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Rustic Rebel Mrrzy- I send you a virtual hug. Keep us posted on how your doing. Glad your mom is doing better, this must be a strain on her too. I'm doing much better, thanks for asking and caring when your going through so much pain yourself. Love, Rustic |
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12 Feb 04 - 10:44 AM (#1114887) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: InOBU Hi RR, I have said this on this site before, but grief is a process which ends in joy, as hard as it is to accept that now. When my father died, I was in shock, then came the time when I'd reach for the phone to call him, and then, the point when instead of reaching for the phone, I'd know in my heart what his advice would be, and at that point came the joy of knowing that my father was completely alive in me. I still miss him, I missed being able to speak to him about visiting the ruins of the family castle, burned the year he was born, but he was there with me, very activly in my heart as I wandered through the ruins. It is a process that ends in joy, because after the grief their place in your life becomes a permanent part of you. George Fox, the founder of the Quaker faith, once said that a friend who has died is only as far from us as a friend in another land. The active listening you employed when you played together, is still there, hear him as you play and he is still with you. Yours in the light Larry |
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12 Feb 04 - 02:34 PM (#1115048) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Chief Chaos Reb I haven't ben hit so hard nor so suddenly as you. You can't have my thoughts on how to deal with it without the sympathy because my heart resonates (empathy is sometimes a terrible gift). What can I say that hasn't already been said. open your heart and share your grief with your other friends who are going through this as well. Share your memories of the good times and listen as others share their memories as well. Each is a gift that we can give each other and each is a way in which the departed continue on with us. Go to a store specializing in candles and oil lamps. Purchase a candle or lamp that your heart tells you is the right one. Put it in the windowsill and light it in the evenings to let their spirits know you are thinking of them and as a light to guide them home to you. |
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13 Feb 04 - 12:08 PM (#1115273) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Willie-O I lost a friend this week too. Danny O'Connell was a terrific 24-year-old Ottawa Valley fiddle player who I had played a couple of gigs and a lot of sessions with. He took his own life on Monday, leaving a lot of very sad and bewildered family and friends. Funeral tomorrow. Still trying to get my head around this. The Thursday sessions where I met him last year (at a pub named, by sheer coincidence, Daniel O'Connell's) will never be the same. Bill |
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13 Feb 04 - 11:38 PM (#1115641) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Rustic Rebel Here's to Danny O'Connell, May he live in your heart and memory. Another musician added to the big band. |
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14 Feb 04 - 06:45 AM (#1115750) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: AllisonA(Animaterra) The music making up there must be phenomenal! What a band! My dear friend Mel told me her theory the other day about why healthy, vibrant Byron had to die (she played in a harp-concertina duo with him). She says, God has enough harp players but not nearly enough concertina players, so he took Byron to fill in the gap! I'm not sure about that theory- but you can just keep the concertina jokes to yourself, or put them on another thread! On a different note, a friend who was widowed 4 years ago tells me that grief follows not a linear but a spiral path. Your emotions loop around from feeling just plain sad, to downright miserable and unable to cope, around to calm, stable, and sometimes even happy, and back around again. It certainly helps explain my life these days. Allison |
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14 Feb 04 - 08:10 AM (#1115774) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Jeanie That image of the spiral is just right, Allison, and describes it perfectly. It was what I was trying to express in my post above. Thank goodness the spiral is such that we are each at different points on it at different times, and can always hold out a hand to help each other as we travel around it. With much love to everyone on this thread, and to the people they are remembering. - jeanie |
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16 Feb 04 - 02:13 PM (#1117126) Subject: RE: BS: A grieving thread From: Mrrzy Aargh, willie-o, I do hope he left a note! Suicide is hard enough for the survivors without information... (Aside - Mom is back home but not doing well at all, and seems to have some new pain, and today her heat is out and I was supposed to go up but got a stomach bug I'd really rather not give her so I couldn't... and was too ill to come to the Bar Mitzvah for the grandson named for Daddy, to everyone's chagrin. Update the interested later on that.) |