BS: Labels

08 Feb 04 - 03:07 PM (#1112020)
Subject: BS: Labels
From: Jerry Rasmussen

In here, we use labels a lot: Conservative,liberal,Republican, Democrat, Christian, Atheist. Labels are very attractive. They break a complex world down into manageable pieces. Reading the thread Conservative, Liberal or human being got me thinking about the people I most admire in my life. And, the labels that I could attach to them. And, how many friends I respect who I couldn't label because I never bothered to ask them their political or spiritual identification. It might be worth a few minutes of reflection for all of us to do this little excercise.

First of all, I'll label myself. I am Liberal Democrat who loves Jesus Christ. Christian is a label that works well when they're doing a national poll. My faith is much more than just a label.

o.k. That's who I am. Here are some of the people I most admire, love and respect:

Democrats: Joe, Frankie and Derrick in my gospel quartet, my wife, my parents and my two sons. I don't love and respect them because they're Democrats. Or liberals. I love them because they are wonderful, generous, loving people.

Republicans: When I think of all the people I've had the honor of calling "friend" in my life, three of the most outstanding people are all Republican. They are social activists, not just in word, but in hard work. In my work life, I worked with several people who were millionaires many times over. Three come immediately to mind who were
as good as people get. I suspect that they were Republicans, but I don't know that to be a fact. I never asked, because it wasn't important to me.

Atheists: I could make a whole list here, starting with probably the closest friend I've had in my life, who is a revered Catter. From my work days, I was very close friends with someone who was raised Catholic, but has been an Atheist most of her adult life. Our differences in belief never created any problems for us. (I don't know if she is a Republican or Democrat.)

Agnostics: I can throw one of my sons in here, along with many Catter and non-catter friends.

Christians: 7 days a week: Joe, Frankie and Derrick from my quartet, my wife and many friends who try to live a Christ like life, and fall far short of the glory. On Mudcat, you can include Bobert, Khandu, Jeanie, Sian and many others.

Muslims: My two sons from my second marriage, who are both fine men.

So what does all of this say? What kind of a profile of good people can I draw? It seems clear to me that I can't use any of these labels. When I think of people I admire and respect, it is the way they LIVE that makes me appreciate them, whether it's Bill D, who I
hardly know, jimmyt (who is a good man, even though he is a conservative Republican AND a dentist!) Art Thieme, who is an Atheist, and so many others in here who I don't know by label.

But, as Leadbelly said, we're all folks, sure enough. And we're in the same boat, brother.

Sometimes we have to row, sometimes we have to bail.

Labels have never helped me to keep the boat afloat.

Jerry

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08 Feb 04 - 03:10 PM (#1112022)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Firecat

I fully agree! I'm sick and tired of being put in little boxes. Why can't people accept that everyone's equal, no matter what faith, gender, colour or anything else they are?

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08 Feb 04 - 03:23 PM (#1112026)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: John MacKenzie

I'm me...John

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08 Feb 04 - 03:31 PM (#1112030)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Jerry Rasmussen

That's enough of a label for me, John..

Jerry

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08 Feb 04 - 04:13 PM (#1112047)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Alaska Mike

Well said Jerry. I've noticed over the years that as soon as people become known to us individually, they seem harder to fit into preconceived labels. I have many friends that I have known for many years and have no clue what their religious/political/economic views are. Once I have labeled them as friends, nothing else matters.

Mike

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08 Feb 04 - 04:37 PM (#1112059)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Dead Horse

My labels keep falling off, as time passes.
I don't mind having a label that says "Tear along dotted line"
But I aint looking forward to one that just says "RIP"
In the mean time, call me what you like, as long as its not "too late for breakfast"

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08 Feb 04 - 04:56 PM (#1112069)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: CarolC

Labels are meaningless. They have as many definitions as there are people who use them.

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08 Feb 04 - 05:20 PM (#1112079)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Bobert

Awwwww shucks!!! Ya' mean I can't describe myself as a pinko commie liberal anymore??? Sniff, I've worked so hard and now it seems all this work is jus' going down the drain..... Sniff....

Jus' funnin', Jerry...

And I love you brother, even if you are a "Liberal Christain Democrat" 'er whatever you are...

Well, okay, as you know, Jerry, I'm a Christain (as in follower of Christ) but that is one label that ain't negotiable...

the former Pinko Commie Bobert but now jus....sniff...

Bobert

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08 Feb 04 - 05:49 PM (#1112087)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Jerry Rasmussen

U Da Man, Bobert!

Jerry

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08 Feb 04 - 06:02 PM (#1112090)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: CarolC

Even the label "Christian" has different meanings among those who apply it to themselves.

My mother was a born-again fundamentalist Christian in the latter decades of her life (this is what she considered herself... she was raised Catholic). But she didn't consider Catholics to be Christians. I think most Catholics would probably disagree with her criteria for the lable of "Christian".

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08 Feb 04 - 07:26 PM (#1112140)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Jerry Rasmussen

From my perspective, Carol C, the term "Christian" is non-denominational. As a matter of fact, Christ was a Jew.. I also believe that if you are truly a Christian, you are to be non-jugmental. Not that many of us achieve that state (I haven't), but it's one to strive for, whether you're a Christian or an Atheist.

Jerry

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08 Feb 04 - 07:33 PM (#1112142)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Amos

n here, we use labels a lot

In here meaning the Cat? I'd think it was more like "In here in the insane asylum commonly known as human existence...."

Maps and labels are our specialty and they are obviously successful, considering how much space we've taken away from other species, if that's how you keep score.

But boy, someone should have put a "Warning -- Side Effects Include Madness" on the package of "packaging", if you know what I mean because it gets really easy to lose touch with really existence when you get overly fond of using labels.

It gets even worse when you attach opinions to labels -- it makes them hang around even harder!


A

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08 Feb 04 - 07:47 PM (#1112152)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Peace

Labels: One wonders if they are the beginning or the end of the search for people. Malvina Reynolds said it so well. And so did y'all.

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08 Feb 04 - 07:59 PM (#1112161)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: GUEST,Clint Keller

I believe this study is called "semantics," ¿No?

"The map is not the terrritory, the word is not the thing referred to."

I like to think I'm liberal, but it annoys me to be called A Liberal. I'm also pretty conservative, but not A Conservative.

Words like "eco-terrorist" and "Christian" are generally used as judgrments rather than identifiers.

But it's hard to deal with words when words are the only tool you have to deal with them.

clint

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08 Feb 04 - 08:59 PM (#1112187)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: McGrath of Harlow

Labels are quite handy - the mistake comes in thinking, when it comes to people that any one label necessarily excludes others. That especially goes when we remove the capital letters. No reason, for example, whatsoever why someone can't be a liberal conservative republican democrat. In fact I suspect that's probably a pretty common combination.

Lots of labels which seem might exclusive actually aren't. For example it's quite possible for someone to be a Jewish Moslem.

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08 Feb 04 - 10:16 PM (#1112204)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Jerry Rasmussen

You got it right, Clint:

Most of the time labels are used to identify someone different than you, and they are usually followed by some form of criticism. I too am liberal, but I don't consider myself a "Liberal". I heard that Liberals are pointy-headed. Just like conservatives are heartless.
Maybe I should label myself "Undecided."

Jerry

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08 Feb 04 - 11:16 PM (#1112220)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Bill D

I am honored to be named in that list, Jerry.......


I am not a labeler, but I am a 'categorizer', because one thing or one person can fit into multiple categories. Rather than label a person a 'conservative' and then tell myself I can't like him because I KNOW I don't like conservatives, I note that he is a quiet, friendly, music loving, meat eating, funny guy who mows his lawn neatly, seldom beats his wife, and just 'happens' to vote differently than I do most of the time. This way, I get to find something to like about 99.631% of the people I meet. (Don't ask about the other .369%!)

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08 Feb 04 - 11:53 PM (#1112229)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Teresa

Well, am I a science-fiction fan or a folkie or a blind person or an anarchist or a socialist or a hippie or a redneck or an agnostic or a poet or a good ole' person or a punster or a pipe-smoker or a tomboy?

Whwhwhwhwheeewwwwwwwwwww!!

::deep breath::

Y'know, the older I get, the more the labels sort of go away and either fall off or get absorbed somehow. ...
Teresa

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09 Feb 04 - 02:04 AM (#1112270)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Joe Offer

I think of myself as a "radical moderate," since I refuse to completely espouse any ideology, and that makes me untrustworthy and disloyal in the eyes of both right and left. My mother-in-law just shakes her head and says, "Joe, you're so liberal!." She's 89, and her chief entertainment is listening to talk shows. The talk shows keep saying that liberals are evil - she doesn't know why, but she believes it.

I came unglued when she piously suggested that the Democrats should show respect for President Bush by not running against him in 2004.

Oh, well.

-Joe Offer, part of the Axis of Evil-

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09 Feb 04 - 07:07 AM (#1112381)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Wolfgang

Humans cannot do without categories. To categorises similar things helps us tremendously. Using categories is one of the things children learn early ("No, this is not a cat, this is a dog"). If 'labels' are understood in that sense we cannot do without them.

Most, however, have understood this thread differently, and I agree with them: The number of possible labels to describe one particular person is infinite. To believe that one particular of these many labels is the best to describe him or her is at the very least lazy.

Sometimes, of course, labels are meant not as labels but a insults: You are a racist and a bigot.
I guess even the Mudcatter who has posted that once would would rather not see that as a meaningful label for that person.

One last thought: it often helps to spell out that a certain label may often not be stable in time. "That is a stupid (thoughtless, racist) argument" is much better than "You are a stupid (thoughtless, racist) person". Most of us behave at least sometimes in a way making a not very nice label understandable. None of us (except you, of course, :-)) deserves such a description as a fixed label. Psychologists would say: Speak rather about the state than about the trait of a person.

Wolfgang

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09 Feb 04 - 07:25 AM (#1112392)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Jerry Rasmussen

A lot of thoughtful observations in here. I'm with you, Bill. Some people look for common ground where they can make a connection with other people, rather than focusing on differences in a negative way.
Differences are the spice of life, you know. I figure one of me is more than enough, and I really enjoy seeing life through new perspectives that cause me to stretch a little. If you take the time to get to know someone else, rather than feeling frustrated that they don't appreciate YOU, it's amazing what bonds can be formed. The greatest test for me is trying to connect with people who are always critical and angry. They are looking for agreement with their perspective on life, and while I can try to understand them and be sympathetic with them, I can't accept their negative attitudes. Then, common ground is hard to come by.

And you're right, we do have to categorize things, and to some extent, people, too. Capital L labels for groups of people are risky though, because labels are not usually positive. I believe that as a group, folk musicians are warm and accepting. My wife, who didn't even know what folk music was until she met me, and isn't a "folkie"
still often comments about how warm and accepting folk musicians are.
Right off hand, that's about the only positive "Label" that comes to mind. Of course, ALL folk musicians aren't that way, but it's refreshing to hear a positive generalization that's being made, not to put down another group, in contrast. And of course, as some friends in here who are conservative Republicans have discovered, the warm, accepting, friendly acceptance isn't as easily granted to them as it is to Liberal Democrats by some members of the Cat.

Only goes to show. We're all human. Maybe even Human.

Jerry

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09 Feb 04 - 07:37 AM (#1112399)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: muppett

The job I'm in a the moment finishes at the end of March, so I'm looking for another job, I've had a number of applications forms for numerous posts and they've all got equal opps. forms with little boxes to tick, like the rest of you, I object to being categorised, so I've had a bit of fun, particularly in the ethnic origin section, I've ticked the 'other box, please state' and put that I'm Anglo African Caribbean - Irish - French - Canadian, born in the South of England, but naturalised as a Yorshireman.
That should meet most their outputs.

I'm not a box I'm an individual person!!!!!!!!!!!

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09 Feb 04 - 08:34 AM (#1112442)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Rapparee

Lord, how I hate bigots!!

Makes me feel good to have said that. I feel more at peace than I have since I killed that jingoistic warmonger.

Seems to me that the fella who said that he loves humanity, it's people he can't stand had it pretty close to right.

Working everyday, as I do, with those that a prof once called "the great unwashed" I'm exposed to every shade of humanity. The lady who feels that she's "living right in the middle of Africa" because we have a display up on African-American history. The one who said that we were "worse than a Communist state" because we asked her for an ID before letting her use our Internet stations. The old railroader who's still a Wobblie. The Shoshone and Bannock families who come in from the Rez. The Hispanics. The Mormons. The (shudder!) Catholics (some call themselves "Catholic Christians" who live within the Holy Spirit Catholic Community -- formerly three seperate parishes). The Greek Orthodox. The phuds from the University. The businessmen and women. The hunters. The PETA members. The artists. The politicians. The ordinary people. And, especially, the kids.

The kids don't care one whit whether you're a member of the Safari Club or a vegan. That your ancestors were from Finland or Japan. That your granddad was a CO or served in the 442d RCT.

The kids are cool.

I try to be child-like (some say I've succeeded admirably -- then they realize that I didn't "childish).

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09 Feb 04 - 09:02 AM (#1112466)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Rapparee

I've liked this ever since I first heard it. Ol' Phil got it right.

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
And I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to the civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
And I'm glad that the commies were thrown out
From the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
And I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
As long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Ah, the people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
Now I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Yes, I read New Republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I attend all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
And I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Sure, once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
Ah, but I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

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10 Feb 04 - 04:15 AM (#1113088)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Rustic Rebel

I have been labeled only once that I recall
By my brother Amos, on the BS thread of all.
Our own happy-hippie nude-thread-walking Rustic Rebel, that's what is was
And this type of labeling I can handle, just because....
Amos knows.

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10 Feb 04 - 04:32 AM (#1113094)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: GUEST

We should all have bar codes and move into the 21st century.

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10 Feb 04 - 11:40 AM (#1113404)
Subject: RE: BS: Labels
From: Bill D

bar codes? So we can get a drink at the local watering hole?

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