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28 Feb 04 - 03:30 PM (#1125867) Subject: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus For folks that don't want to wade through the 120+ postings in Celtic Bulmer (4) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (4) From: dick greenhaus - PM Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:14 PM A Plea for Some Sort of Clarification As I (perhaps poorly) understand it, Celtic Music has done three bad things" A. They sat on some titles (notably Nic Jones) and refused to release them, doing financial harm to the artists. B. They (allegedly) have not paid royalties to the artists on thr few CDs they have released. C. They have released CD-Rs without notifying anyone that they're nor properly pressed CDs. Could someone tell me if I'm reading this correctly? The reason I ask is that CM has recently released a small flood of excellent previously-unavailable CDs, and I'd like to make this very fine music available to my customers. Objection "A" clearly doen't apply here. As far as "B" is concerned, I'd be grateful if any artists whose work has been released would let me know if they are receiving royalties; if they're not, I can probably make some arrangement where I'll pay the royalties to them directly. As for "C" it is as it is; I'll make no secret about whether they're CD-R's or not, but I'd like to point out that any CDs (or CD-Rs) I sell come with a lifetime (probably mine) warranty. I'd really like to help make this music available. What think you? |
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28 Feb 04 - 04:02 PM (#1125890) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Lancashire Lad Hi Dick I'm one of the few people on here who doesnt believe Dave Bulmer is the devil incarnate! CM have now released 2 Nic Jones albums. Royalties have been sent, but cheques remain uncashed as I believe there are ongoing negotiations over new contracts / royalty rates , etc I'm not sure about all artists on the label, but a friend recently spoke to Sid Kipper, he said he gets paid no problem and is happy to keep releasing his stuff through them Yes they press on CDR, but had I not been told, I would never have guessed. I've bought quite a few of them and never had a single problem yet By the way though. There are a lot more than a "few" CDs they have released. CM own everything on Trailer, Leader, Black Crow, Making Waves, Mulligan, Dara, Broadside, Sweet Folk and Country, Folk Heritage, Greenwich Village, Rubber and I'd guess a load more. Cheers LL |
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28 Feb 04 - 07:54 PM (#1125994) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,John Ford. Whatever Bulmer and Sharply own, they have stolen almost every penny from Pat Cooksey's song The Sick Note, Cooksey seems to b exiled in Germany while Celtic Music take all that is his due to him, I think Cooksey is doing someting about it, I certainly hope so, for the sake of folk music. |
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28 Feb 04 - 08:31 PM (#1126016) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Jeri Dick, you might try posting on uk.music.folk. Gaughan hangs out there, and other folks could probably let you know how to reach other Bulmerized recording artists. |
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29 Feb 04 - 12:35 PM (#1126227) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Lien Dick, you don't mention how you will be paying royalties. Do you intend to buy CD's from CM (presumably as a retailer) at dealer prices and then make an ADDITIONAL royalty payment to the artistes involved? How will you calculate the royalties? How would this be possible unless you are content to reduce your own margins? OR do you intend to simply attempt to purchase from Bulmer and then stiff him for the royalty element that you have calculated so that you can remit to the artistes concerned? If so it sounds just a tad naive however altruistic it sounds! Perhaps you actually mean to bootleg original material. Please put me out of my confusion. Whilst I thoroughly agree that it would be good to make more folk music available please never forget that Mr B and the bag carrier Sharpley will surely take you to the cleaners if you attempt to write your own "terms of trade". Good luck anyway. |
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29 Feb 04 - 12:50 PM (#1126236) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus Guest, Lien Do you intend to buy CD's from CM (presumably as a retailer) at dealer prices and then make an ADDITIONAL royalty payment to the artistes involved? That's the idea. And remember, I'm not sure (and won't be until I hear from the artists, that they're not getting royalties. How will you calculate the royalties? typically, royalties come to 5% of the recording's list price How would this be possible unless you are content to reduce your own margins? That's the idea. OR do you intend to simply attempt to purchase from Bulmer and then stiff him for the royalty element that you have calculated so that you can remit to the artistes concerned? I don't intend to stiff anyone. Please keep in mind that we're not talking about a hell of a lot of money here. My main interest is getting the music out. THat's why DigiTrad exists; that's why CAMSCO exists. |
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29 Feb 04 - 01:30 PM (#1126262) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: michaelr Dick -- great idea, and it's good of you to consider reducing your profit margin. Where can one see a list of this "small flood" of new releases? Cheers, Michael |
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29 Feb 04 - 01:45 PM (#1126268) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus Ok- A partial listing: LER 2027 Nic Jones Nic Jones CROC 211 5-Hand Reel Gaughan, etc. LER 2014 Ballads & Songs Nic Jones RUB 028 Nowt So Good'll Pass Bob Fox, Sid Luckley LER 2122 Chained Melody Sid Kipper PHF 1004 Barking Mad 4 Men & a Dog PHF 1003 Shifting Gravel 4 Men & a Dog PHF 1005 Dr. A's Secret Remedies 4 Men & a Dog PHF 1006 Long Roads 4 Men & a Dog LUN 051 Time to Time Gerry O'Connor LE 4006 The Border Minstrel Billy Pigg MOO 2 Rooted! Mike Harding LE 2121 Cod Pieces Sid Kipper Arky's Toast Martyn Wyndham-Read LE 2092 Maypoles to Mistletoes Martyn Wyndham-Read RUB 029 On Two Levels Sean McGuire & Josephine Keegan LE 2011 Rout of the Blues Robin, Barry Dransfeld PHF 1001 From the Beggar's Mantle Barbara Dickson PHF 1002 Orfeo Archie Fisher GVR 214 Songs & Tunes From Wales Mick Terns & Pat Smith GVR 224 You Can Take a White Horse Anywhere Terns & Smith CMC 080 Both Sides of the Coyne Mick Coyne CMC 009 Hom Bru Obadeea CMC 079 Lifeswork James Keegan DAM 056 Since Time Immoral Kipper Family PHC 2K2 Legendary Queen of Irish Folk Singers Delia Murphy LER 2044 Music From the Coleman Country Revisited various LED 2052 Shetland Fiddlers various (inc. Aly Bain & Tom Anderson) CGR 002 Mouth Organ Will Atkinson LER 2038 The Bonny Birdy Ray Fisher LER 2076 Bright Phoebus Lal & Mike Waterson GVR 209 The Ettrick Shepherd The McCalmans GVR 209 Aboard the Cutty Sark Stan Hugill CMC 081 You are Here Tich Frier PHC 2K7 Frank Wappat's Spring Collection various PHK 2K3 The Street Singer Arthur Tracy Can't quote prices as yet--I'd rather wait a short while and see if I'll be lynched by maddend Mudcatters |
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29 Feb 04 - 04:20 PM (#1126368) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Lien Well Dick, it sounds too good to be true and I wish you luck. Mr Bulmer too will be happy as, of course, technically royalties will have been paid and thus he is presumably relieved of the obligation to pay them himself. He would have won by default and surely this is not the object of the exercise? So you dont end up in bankruptcy sooner than you would wish, could I suggest that you find out exactly how the royalty is calculated - do you intend to pay an (average) of 5% of the list price CM sells to you, or on the list retail price. The difference in cost to you would be very considerable. The base on which the royalty is calculated is so important and you must see that there is a world of difference between a base of (say) £7/unit dealer, and (say) £12/retail. I think this is a minefield and I cannot fail to say that I think you will be taking on too much even though the proposed items look so interesting. You certainly must take proper advice - not least from the MCPS and the BPI. |
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29 Feb 04 - 05:00 PM (#1126396) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus Mr. Bulmer is still responsible for royalties--what I do as a customer of his in no way relieves him of that obligation, whether or not he honors it. 5% of £12 is 60p.--which isn't catastrophic (and I suspect that original royalty agreements call for a somewhat lower amount.) The MCPS and the BPI have absolutely nothing to do with this.And I only wish I could make a £5 profit on recordings from the UK-- ..and, realistically, I doubt that there would be more than a couple of hundred sales (total) involved. |
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29 Feb 04 - 07:01 PM (#1126476) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Gerry. Please sell whatever you wish Dick, you are dealing with a bunch of crooks who take everyting from the artist's you claim to reperesent. All the more profit to you and hang the rest. Celtic Music, Bulmer and Sharley, are tbe worst examples of the exploitatin of folk music I have ever encountred. Please count the money, and f''ck the rest. |
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29 Feb 04 - 07:12 PM (#1126485) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Richard Bridge If, as reported, Sharpley has been struck off as a solicitor, and if, as reported, he continues to purport to be a solicitor and to represent Bulmer/Celtic in court, why has he not been charged with offences under the Solicitors Acts? If anyone can PM me with actual facts, including Sharpley's full name and preferably address and the places and dates where he purported to be a solicitor I may (time permitting, I am under the gun all this week) take the issue up with the Law Society. |
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29 Feb 04 - 07:38 PM (#1126499) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Susanne (skw) I bought Ray Fisher's 'Bonny Birdy' in a shop in Britain last year and found (too late) that it is a CD-R copy. I understand that such copies are expected to be less long-lasting than industrially produced CDs, and therefore feel cheated. It cost me the same as any other CD and was in no way marked out as a copy. I only took a closer look when it wouldn't play in my CD walkman nor in the PC. Can't take it back, though ... |
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01 Mar 04 - 05:27 AM (#1126775) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: red max For what it's worth, CM's reissue of the first Hedgehog Pie album had loads of vinyl crackle. I've read from other sources that you can expect some pretty shoddy packaging, too |
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01 Mar 04 - 07:22 AM (#1126841) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Lancashire Lad I didnt know that CM or anyone else in the UK had re-issued the 1st Hedgehog Pie album. I've been looking for a CD of this (and the other albums) for ages, but can only locate the Italian bootleg CD with the Lambton Worm tracks added. If this is the one you are talking about, it has nothing to do with Rubber Records / Celtic Music. It's the product of an Italian bootlegger. LL |
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01 Mar 04 - 07:33 AM (#1126847) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: pavane Dick, The other point (apart from your first 3) is that by selling CDRs, they do not have to tell anyone how many they have made. Therefore any royalty payments will be based on their own sales figures, with no independent confirmation available. How trustworthy are they? And unfortunately, buying from him just lines his pocket further. (PS on the case of Sharpley, I believe the case was dropped) |
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01 Mar 04 - 11:16 AM (#1127017) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus Pavanne- The same lack of auditability (to coin a word) exists with pressed CDs--witness suit against Green Linnet. I really don't see how a retailer--me--can function if the goodness or badness of the supplier is called into question. I also don't see how a retailer--again me--can be held responsible for the audio quality of a CD, short of mentioning it to the prospective purchaser (which I intend to do.) I'd like to sell these CDs simply because there's some fine, otherwise unavailable, music therein. While I realize that any such sales benefit M. Bulmer, I also realize that my computer purchases benefit Mr Gates (whom I personally detest.) MY like, or dislike, of the publisher can't prevent me from patronizing him, unless there are other equivalent sources. |
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02 Mar 04 - 11:43 AM (#1127738) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus If there are no more compelling dissenters, I'm going ahead with the import. Could somebody E-mail me an address for Nic Jones? I'd like to get the royalty business settled. |
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02 Mar 04 - 12:06 PM (#1127759) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: pavane A search for Mollie Music should find an address. |
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02 Mar 04 - 12:09 PM (#1127763) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: pavane Nic's site is Here |
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17 Mar 04 - 11:35 AM (#1139177) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Leprechaun Dave Bulmer is playing St. Patrick's night in Leeds at The New Roscoe with The Drouthy Band. I'm sure you'll all be down to wish him well! |
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18 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM (#1139880) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,T-boy I hope some bootlegger recorded it. |
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18 Mar 04 - 08:29 AM (#1139908) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: greg stephens Dick Greenhaus injects a note of reality in the proceedings when he points that what he is discussing is probably the sale of a couple of hundred records. These royalties that the terrible Mr Bulmer may or not have have shafted people for are in the area of beer/pin money(and not many beers or pins at that). A tiny handful of folkies that get big BBC/Froots coverage make more substantial sales that result in royalties measured in thousands of pounds, but that is surely not the case with Bulmer artists, I would guess. He may be doing all sorts of wrong things, but I doubt if he's lining his pockets to any extent. |
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18 Mar 04 - 09:59 AM (#1139983) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus I can only add that Sid Kipper, at least is receiving royalties--he's the one who gave me Celtic Music's address in the first place. |
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18 Mar 04 - 02:45 PM (#1140228) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Bill Thomas I wonder about this. Celtic Music isn't the only music industry source of music often accused of non-payment of royalties to artists. I have also heard that Green Linnet in the US routinely stiffs their artists as well. Do you sell their CDs? Why the special case for Celtic Music, if you don't mind my asking? |
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18 Mar 04 - 04:24 PM (#1140292) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus As a retailer, I'm not the guardian of publisher's morals, or reponsible for punishing any lapses of ethics. Especially alleged ones. I sell everything folk or folkish that's in print. |
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18 Mar 04 - 05:54 PM (#1140353) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Bill Thomas I agree wholeheartedly dick, which is why I asked why Celtic Music seems a special case? I mean, Altan's lawsuit against Green Linnet alleges over $100,000 in unpaid royalities, refusal by Green Linnet to provide sales figures, etc. I posted because it seemed odd to me that a retailer would go to such extraordinary lengths for a couple 100 CDs, when there are many distributors in the folk music industry who have been accused of ripping off artists besides Celtic Music. I would imagine that trying to do what you suggested you would do in your posts above, ie pay royalties directly to musicians, could quickly become a bookkeeping nightmare for a retailer. I don't mean to be stepping over the line of polite decorum here, but I get the feeling from your response that the line is already behind me. You did ask for feedback on this. |
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18 Mar 04 - 06:36 PM (#1140378) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) I 'ad that Wendy Newton in my Vauxhall Cavalier once. Bleeder broke dahn near 'Atton Cross station (motor, not the bird). On my life... |
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18 Mar 04 - 07:35 PM (#1140452) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus Trying to make a business out of selling folk CDs is a nightmare(albeit a pleasant one), whether or not royalties are involved. |
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18 Mar 04 - 07:58 PM (#1140478) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Malcolm Douglas Read the old threads, Bill. You'll quickly find that one reason why they are all closed to new contributions is because far too many people have asked exactly the question you have asked without bothering to read what has already been said, and then it has all been said again... and so on. |
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19 Mar 04 - 01:57 AM (#1140624) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: greg stephens "Bill Thomas" seems strangely familiar in style, I think we made have heard from him before in other guises on this topic? |
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19 Mar 04 - 04:46 AM (#1140685) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Bill Thomas Thanks for your suggestion Malcolm, but having just checked the volume and viturperativeness of those threads, I've no intention of reading them. Opinions were asked for, I gave mine. I find it just plain bizarre that any retailer would single out a single distributor alleged to have ripped off the musicians whose catalogues they own, and selectively pay some musicians royalties directly from the sales of the CDs. But then, that's me. Now, since holding that opinion apparently makes me suspect in the eyes of some (apparently) paranoid individuals here, I'll bow out now, with due apologies for having posted at all. |
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19 Mar 04 - 04:48 AM (#1140688) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: greg stephens like i said |
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20 Mar 04 - 06:49 AM (#1141563) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Ian Seem to be a umber of Bulmer excusists around these days. Although the threads bega with the rips, the debate has matured to expose DB and his companies for what they are. I understand that almost without exception Bulmer has managed to damage nearly evryone he comes in to contact with, whether it be in the field of folk music, record distribution, record pressing etc. Very few people seem to speak particularly well of him but is it any wonder? At the first sniff of dissent (ie demands for royalties etc) Bulmer commences legal action. Distributors have been ripped off and there is at least one case ongoing where a distributor has not been paid. He really is not the nice guy some now hope to paint him. Dont believe me? Make contact with some of his former business partners most of whom have been ruined by his actions. In the knowledge of what he means, anyone now dealing with him deserves what they will undoubtedly get. |
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20 Mar 04 - 05:56 PM (#1141944) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus I'm confused. I'm as willing as anyone else to believe that Bulmer is a bum, a nogoodnik, the AntiChrist....whatever. But can someone tell me how it's possible for a recording outfit to stiff a distributor? Distributors are supposed to pay recording companies, not vice versa. I'd really like to know--might come in handy some day. |
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21 Mar 04 - 01:39 AM (#1142120) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST CM is not a "recording outfit"; never really has been. It is primarily a distributor which, over the years, has bought up the back catalogues of numerous small record labels. Odd bits of new material are generated occasionally by one of other of the complicated series of "nested" companies involved, but that has never been an important part of the business. The current series of re-issues are reported by some people who have bought them (see discussions on uk.music.folk) to be home-copied CDRs; whether that is accurate or not I don't know. I do know some former business associates and clients of Mr Bulmer, however, and they do not, on the whole, remember him with affection. "Lancashire Lad" is a rare voice in his favour. I wonder who he is? The fact that some of the "Celtic Music" companies are still trading normally suggests that they have maintained acceptable working relationships with a reasonable number of other concerns. The general consensus, however, is that it is politic, when dealing with them, at least to have available the proverbial long spoon; and to try to be sure that you owe them money, not the other way around. |
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21 Mar 04 - 04:33 AM (#1142150) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Ian Dick. I did not say that CM was principally a recording outfit. That side of CM business is probably a minority activity these days and has been for several years. CM and its famed owner, Mr Bulmer, makes money out of other more lucrative activities - distribution being just one of them. The problem stems, it seems, from Mr Bulmer's preferred accounting method which is that of contra accounting and this is where he gets the upper hand over all those he deals with. It is perfectly feasible for him to damage distributors in this way. The notion of product (ie records, tape s and CD's) exchange is his way of ultimately ensuring that the other parties lose out. I think that if you delve a little deeper into his methods you will see that I am right and you will probably discover that on accounting day, Mr B applies all the ancillary charges (normally carried as an element of "cost of sales") which effectively put the other party into a debtor situation. Arguments follow and then the legal eagle Sharpley swings in to gear with writs and threats of all sorts of legal action. This is the way CM does business. Dick, ask around and if you still consider that a deal with Bulmer could be good, take time to develop the proberbial eyes in the backside. It will certainly be profitable but assuredly those profits will be Mr Bulmer's. |
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21 Mar 04 - 05:37 PM (#1142451) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus Dunno about "certainly be profitable" but I hate to have all that good music unavailable to the few who want to hear it. |
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26 Mar 04 - 03:49 AM (#1146459) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Rob Donnelly I re released my first Album "Dirtfile" on Mr Bulmer's Delta Label 4 years ago and I haven't had a penny, but does that mean he's been ripping me off or has he simply failed to sell any albums? There's one thing for sure, no wonder he has trouble distributing them if he's as popular as this forum suggests. |
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26 Mar 04 - 06:53 AM (#1146547) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: pavane The former sounds more likely. Have you checked with any shops or distributors as to whether they sell/have sold it? I don't think there are too many folk specialists, so it may be practicable to check. But I don't suppose suing for royalties would be cost-effective - that's part of the business rationale, I expect. |
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26 Mar 04 - 06:54 AM (#1146549) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: pavane Perhaps you could check - get a few people to actually BUY it, and see what happens. But that isn't cost-effective either! |
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26 Mar 04 - 09:29 AM (#1146647) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Roger the Skiffler Couldn't the Musicians' Union act on your behalf, Rob? RtS (You ARE a union member, I hope, brother!) |
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26 Mar 04 - 10:03 AM (#1146679) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M To Rob, surely you would know exactly how many have been sold over the four year period OR does CM not bother with royalty statements??? Your contract with Delta (CM/Bulmer/uncle Tob Cobbly et al) will or should give precise details of the statementing period and the accounting thereafter. But if you dont hold him to the letter of the contract perhaps you really dont deserve to know....... |
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26 Mar 04 - 11:26 AM (#1146758) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: dick greenhaus As I recall, it isn't on CMs list of what's available. Royalties, as has been pointed out here many times, only apply to product that's been sold. |
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26 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM (#1146812) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M Indeed that is so. But whether a record is sold, or not sold, the contract will (certainly should) provide for a Statement at prescribed intervals. This is common practice amongst all reputable companies. But there again, we are talking about a Bulmer company.... |
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08 Sep 04 - 03:54 AM (#1266583) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,John, Randfontein, SA I haven't visited this thread for many months and it ssems that all is now quiet. Has the man made his peace with you all. It was so vexed at one time and now nothing. Any news? |
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08 Sep 04 - 08:10 AM (#1266697) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: treewind I guess all that's to be said has been said, and the rest is speculation until something new happens in a law court. Anahata |
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08 Sep 04 - 10:40 AM (#1266793) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: early i wonder if anyone who writes into these threads have actually met Dave or know him? I am aquainted with him and from my knowledge of him directly would say he is no different than any other business man. I also know of artists who Dave has facilitated the release of their own CD's for no cost in return for the rights to sell with a number going to the artist directly to do with as they wish. They seemed quite happy with this arrangement as far as I know. I also visited CM's warehouse and purchased a number of tapes cd's and vinyl(some of major artists) in the past, always finding them more than helpful and knowledgeable about their vast stock of freely available music. If he were as bad as you all make him out to be i am sure he'd drive a much better car and be living a lavish lifestyle which any one seeing him would know is not the case. Dave is passionate about music in both preserving and collecting as well as being a talented player well connected to many well established artistes with whom he plays and associates - this hardly ties in with the picture most of you paint of him. |
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08 Sep 04 - 12:23 PM (#1266861) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,guest early, I think you are rather naive. Seek out Bulmers former partners, people he has done business with, and chat to some of the musicians you claim he associates with. Let the true picture emerge. By the way, did you count your change? |
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08 Sep 04 - 01:30 PM (#1266909) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: early BRAVE GUEST at least have the decency to add your name or state facts - most of the junk posted is third hand and based on what someone said happened to someone else - no business would still be in existence if all that is attributed to cm / d bulmer had occurred - i think the naive are those who have jumped on this band wagon to have a go. Musicians getting shafted by producers and record companies is nothing new but habging on to something you own till the time you want to either sell it or utilise it, depending on market conditions as far as i am aware is good practise - precisely what CM are accused of - also i have yet to meet anyone on the folk scene (including major touring artists who make much from royalties anyway - as pointed out earlier in this thread we are not talking about thousands of tiltles or copies anyway - pirates are probably taking more out of the artises pocket than anyone else on the folk scene - where incidently most of the act i book sell their own CD's at gigs more than anywhere else |
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08 Sep 04 - 01:38 PM (#1266915) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Andy (Miskin Man) Well... I just stumbled on this thread after an afternoon in the pub so I will speak as I find. I had occasion to deal with Dave a while ago now about a re-release of a well known Welsh Band after life changing medical problems. Dave could not have been more helpful, more interested or less financially motivated.... No, I've never met him,.. no I've had no great financial dealings with him. BUT I have talked many hours late in to the night with a genuine caring music person. I have watched with a growimg confusion all the stories about Dave but I speak only from my personal dealings with him - interested, caring, and efficient beyond reproach. I look forward to one day meeting the man for a handshake and a beer. (Those who know me will know that I really mean a hug) Andy |
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08 Sep 04 - 03:44 PM (#1267019) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: shepherdlass early - you asked for personal experiences. I've met Bulmer on occasion and seen the inside of the old CM office before he went big time. From what I saw, he genuinely loves the music but also actively enjoys keeping artists dangling. Not all of them - some are treated with the utmost courtesy (these people then become apologists). Others have to beg - not for royalties - but just an audience with Mr CM himself. So it doesn't seem to be a profit thing - more pursuit of a sense of power. One for Freud rather than the lawyers? No idea what he really gets from it but it's not pretty. Re the lists of impending releases - would like to hope these are genuine - suspect that more often they're just wish lists (and that there's no evil agenda behind this, just no actual staff to do the bloody job). It's a mess - can only assume the legal side is tight enough that the MU can't do anything about it? Let's hope Nic Jones at least gets some dosh soon. |
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08 Sep 04 - 03:48 PM (#1267024) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: shepherdlass PS Andy (Miskin Man) - Hope it works out for you. It may well do - reckon he's good when he's interested! |
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08 Sep 04 - 05:34 PM (#1267114) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Ralphie Jesus I thought that I would be able to get away from this shit.. Sadly not...dragged back in once again. Hand over the tapes Mr Bulmer. Pay money to people that you owe money to. And finally. Expletive deleted. Too many years, Too many tears, may the ghost of Tony Rose come back to haunt you. NO MORE Ralph Jordan |
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09 Sep 04 - 03:12 AM (#1267389) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Lien Like Ralphie I hoped that we had seen the last mention of Bulmer - that it until the day we hear he has got the legal banging that will inevitably reach him. I also agree with Guest who responded to early (surely early is as much a cop out as Guest??) and from dealings that I have had with Bulmer over many years can confirm that to "check your change" might be sensible! I agree also that the real picture can be gained from his previous partners, not to mention employees who have been likewise treated like dirt. Sadly time will not be the healer for these people and I know of at least one former partner whom Bulmer has got gripped in a legal iron vice concocted by his in house hit-man Sharpley. Oh yes Early, you are naive. |
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09 Sep 04 - 04:18 AM (#1267407) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: treewind Mudcat technical note: "early" may not be someone's real name but if push came to legal shove the person's identity can be obtained from their registration details. That is not the case with an unregistered "GUEST". Anahata |
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09 Sep 04 - 04:47 AM (#1267416) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Hootenanny Shepherdlass, What makes you think that the MU would be interested ? For many years I've seen stickers "Keep Music Live" which I believe was organised or backed by the MU, result less live music more "DJ's" Like-wise many years ago radio stations were limited in "needle time" thus ensuring that live music got some coverage on radio. I believe that this was in agreement with the MU.Current situation: 100's more radio stations, even less live music. Not a good track record. Sorry if I've strayed from the main reason for this thread's existence but in my own brief dealings with Mr Bulmer's organisation I would say that it was far from organised or efficient. That however is not uncommon in the real world. |
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09 Sep 04 - 05:55 AM (#1267435) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Ralphie GUEST Lien Many Thanks for your kind words Regards Ralph |
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09 Sep 04 - 07:15 AM (#1267469) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,John Larkins, Randfontein, SA Sorry if I have seemed to upset the peaceful apple cart! Whilst I did not for one moment imagine that Mr Bulmer had become akin to the late Mother Theresa, it is regrettably sure that he is still the problem he apparently has always been. I came to the thread again after having met a folk musician visiting South Africa very recently. This gentleman (who you will appreciate I cannot name as that would be very irresponsible in view of the litigious and spiteful nature of Mr Bulmer) was very vocal about the whole set up that had deprived him of a rather large amount of money over several years. He exorted some young musicians listening to under no circumstances do business with Mr Bulmer. What a very sad indictment but no doubt this is of not the remotest concern to the people at CM in England. I shall continue now to return to the thread to see what if anything goes down. |
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09 Sep 04 - 08:06 AM (#1267496) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Ian Porter. The main accusation levelled at Mr Bulmer seems to be that he is not very nice, there is little hard evidence concerning his supposed crimes, surely not releasing back catalogues, which he owns anyway, is up to him. Non payment of royalties seems to be a major bone of contention, but nobody seems to be able to give any specific cases, only hearsay, where are these disgruntled former partners. I know Bulmer only as a rather good accordion player, who I have seen several times in sessions in Yorkshire, he seems to have plenty of friends in the folk music community here. I know his partner Neil Sharpley has been in court a few times, and has been struck off as a solicitor, but he also has many friends in high places in Louth, where he lives, unless anyone has any real evidence against Bulmer, I suggest that there is little point in constantly going over old ground. |
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09 Sep 04 - 03:34 PM (#1267818) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Ralphie So, being a "rather good accordian player" justifies this whole sorry saga? Tell that to Lal Waterson, Tony Rose, Nic Jones....etc....infinitum. |
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09 Sep 04 - 08:03 PM (#1268071) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Liam Infinitum? Hardly. There is a finite (as in a handful or two) group of musicians who feel they weren't treated fairly. Those same half soaked musicians couldn't be bothered hiring a solicitor to advocate for their own business interests, now or at the time they signed with Bulmer. Hence the well orchestrated campaign (which includes certain posters to these threads) to beat seven shades of shit out of him instead. Thing is, it turned me off forever to those musicians, some of whom I thought were above that sort of thing. |
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09 Sep 04 - 08:21 PM (#1268082) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Nerd Wouldja ever consider reading the threads before posting, Liam? If you did it would explain a lot! Like the fact that many people did not sign with Bulmer. Or the fact that Bulmer's partner IS a solicitor making his legal costs next to nil. This means he can tie things up in process forever, spending no real money, until artists run out of legal fees. Etc, etc... |
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09 Sep 04 - 08:47 PM (#1268098) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Ian Prorter/Lincs. Bulmer and Sharply come from the the same part of North Yorkshire, as do all the Hull crowd, Linc'c etc, Seems a shame that in more than three years, none of them has metionied a word about these matters. John from Hull, can you help us. |
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09 Sep 04 - 09:36 PM (#1268141) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Malcolm Douglas I doubt if the Northern Lincs/East Yorks people have had a lot to do, professionally, with Celtic Music of Harrogate. The sad, lazy ignorance of people like Liam (who is he in real life, I wonder?) is what keeps these discussions dragging pointlessly on. Nothing new is added, but the same misapprehensions and misinformation —and, sometimes, deliberate mendacity— are continually repeated by those who don't know the people involved or who haven't bothered to read what has already been said. Everything material to the present state of affairs has already been said, one way or another. In earlier days on the internet, there was an acronym which newer arrivals here might do well to look up, and take to heart before posting redundant and ill-informed comments: RTFT In this case, of course, there are several threads to read. They are all indicated at the head of this page. If you find that too difficult, or just too much trouble, then perhaps you ought to refrain from comment altogether. |
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09 Sep 04 - 09:48 PM (#1268153) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Qoute-"john from Hull can you help us?" I posted Bulmers adress here a couple of years ago. although, for your information I and the rst of the Hull Mudcat members [theres over 50 of us here], are in East Yorkshire, Mr Bulmer lives in North Yorkshire, [harrogate]. his full address and phone number are in one of the earlier threads, I know its there, as I put it there. |
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09 Sep 04 - 10:00 PM (#1268158) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull David R Bulmer Roskilde House York Road Knaresborough North Yorkshire. |
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10 Sep 04 - 02:31 AM (#1268298) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: pavane What is a 'handful'? When I look through my record collection, I find that a large number of titles have been 'bulmerised'. If these are suppressed from sale, then inevitably the performers are not going to receive any royalties, regardless of any other issues. |
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10 Sep 04 - 03:54 AM (#1268337) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Ralphie Dear GUEST Liam My apologies for my poor Latin Ralph |
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10 Sep 04 - 05:32 AM (#1268397) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: red max Mr Bulmer lives about a mile away from me, but what am I supposed to do? I think it's tragic that so many great Leader/Trailer etc. albums are in limbo, but would it really help if I went round and threw a brick through his window? |
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10 Sep 04 - 05:42 AM (#1268402) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Ralphie Red Max No |
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10 Sep 04 - 07:26 AM (#1268459) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Liam I am as well informed as any about the circumstances as they've been laid out for us over the years on the folk forums. If musicians with aspirations to becoming professional musicians in the music industry (which is a business) sign on the dotted line without the contracts being reviewed and negotiated by their own solicitor, they bloody well get what they deserve. |
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10 Sep 04 - 07:34 AM (#1268466) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: treewind That's hard advice when your contract is initially with a personal friend and his record co. then goes bust and is bought up by somebody you don't know. The folk part of the "music industry" has always been a pretty informal affair, even more so at the time when those events happened. So, my contract with Wild Goose states explicitly that rights ownership reverts to me in the event of Wild Goose's business passing into the hands of anybody other than Doug Bailey. No prizes for guessing why that clause went in. Anahata |
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10 Sep 04 - 08:29 AM (#1268501) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Liam Firstly, hard advice though it may be, it is the only sound advice there ever has been when it comes to the cutthroat nature of the industry. I simply don't accept that the aggrieved musicians shouldn't have been expected to know the terms of the contracts they signed. If they did sod all to protect their own financial interests, why should anyone have sympathy for them? I'm supposing there may even have been a few of them who never read their own contracts before or after signing. Too busy down at the pub with the lads, perhaps? Secondly, it is common sense to know that business and friendship rarely mix well in any industry. That knowledge was quite well known even at the time those older contracts were signed. Thirdly, if those musicians had bothered to educate themselves about the industry they were attempting to make a living in, they would have known what could happen to their creative work when their friend turned out to be terrible at business, or the label was gobbled up by another, etc etc. Those circumstances have never been uncommon occurences in the folk music industry, even back in those days. Finally, there were, obviously, no fewer fools among them then, than there are today. |
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10 Sep 04 - 10:23 AM (#1268596) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Ralphie GUEST Liam. It's always wonderful to welcome such kind, loving, caring and sensitive people like yourself to this forum. I hope that you will stay, (How much do you charge, BTW?) |
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10 Sep 04 - 10:33 AM (#1268605) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: Nerd If they did sod all to protect their own financial interests, why should anyone have sympathy for them? Just a wild guess here, Liam...Because they're human beings? If you're ever shot, God forbid, someone might say "he knew he might get shot, it's a cruel old world, bulletproof vests are available, and if he did sod all to protect his miserable cold heart, why should anyone have any sympathy?" Maybe then you'd understand, Liam... |
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10 Sep 04 - 10:34 AM (#1268606) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: pavane Our (civil, not criminal) legal system has always worked by the unwritten rule that whoever has the deepest pockets wins. (Microsoft, for one example) Doesn't matter how good your contract, they will still tie you up. Musicians in general, and folk musicians in particular, don't tend to have a great deal of money to throw at a lawsuit which may not result in any cash even if they win. Easier to walk away and accept the loss rather than throw good money after bad. And that's EXACTLY what some people rely on. |
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10 Sep 04 - 01:58 PM (#1268694) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: shepherdlass Liam - just reiterating the point made by others here (in the hope that repetition in another way might help): an artist ripped off by a record company and who cannot afford legal redress is no different to a 9-to-5 worker unfairly sacked by their employer. They have a right for their complaint to be heard and to compensation. No-one expects that any other worker becomes a legal expert BEFORE any problems arise - why should musicians be any different? Hootenanny - point taken re the MU. They are pretty toothless, as I discovered while working on a supposedly MU-friendly contract with the Rank organization (hours were extended and wages cut with absolutely no comeback). Equity are a lot better. I just wondered whether there's even a warning in the MU rag about working with CM (suspect not, due to their ability to keep everything entirely legal no matter how immoral it seems)? |
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10 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM (#1268712) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, IOM Yes CM has been the subject of what the MU politely call "NOTICES" for at least ten years. Mr Bulmer's company holds the record for being the most listed in Notices - ie musicians and others contemplating doing business with him are advised that it would be most unwise. Perhaps the current crop of excusists would do as well to check out the Guardian article of some years ago that sets out in no uncertain terms exactly how this team is viewed. Although I have long since disposed of my copy I recall one quote from a representative of the MU that went something like: We have had more complaints about Mr Bulmer and his business paractices than for any other company or individual!" Take the change out of that. |
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10 Sep 04 - 02:34 PM (#1268717) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Liam. Immorality is subjective, as this issue illustrates quite nicely. Same old horse, duly flogged, lying dead on the road. I've no interest in the sanctimonious protestations, as we've all seen them here many times before. G'day. |
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11 Sep 04 - 11:42 AM (#1269295) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: treewind As Liam, this is not a sanctimonious protestation! Neither is this comment. Neither is rumour or hearsay. Your patronizing whining about gullible performers not getting contracts drawn up properly does not apply here. If the terms of a contract are breached you have to take legal action if you want anything done about it. As I mentioned a few messages back, it's all been said before, and some of us await the results with interest. It can take time... Anahata |
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11 Sep 04 - 12:25 PM (#1269314) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: pavane And musicians are not employees, and are not protected by employee legislation |
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11 Sep 04 - 04:09 PM (#1269438) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, IOM Well G'day to you Liam - or Dave, Neil, Ruth or Calum or whatever your name really is. From what you say you cannot appreciate the extent of the villainy perpetrated by the "good" folk at CM Records. From the final abruptness of your posting perhaps that will be the last we hear of your illinformed excuses for their behaviour. |
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11 Sep 04 - 04:44 PM (#1269464) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Liam Did I mention the horse was not only dead, but a rotting, putrefied corpse with a wretched stench? |
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12 Sep 04 - 02:48 AM (#1269784) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Ian Crossleigh Lets hope that you describe CM here Liam. |
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12 Sep 04 - 05:48 PM (#1270394) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: *Laura* Quote - "Infinitum? Hardly. There is a finite (as in a handful or two) group of musicians who feel they weren't treated fairly. Those same half soaked musicians couldn't be bothered hiring a solicitor to advocate for their own business interests, now or at the time they signed with Bulmer. Hence the well orchestrated campaign (which includes certain posters to these threads) to beat seven shades of shit out of him instead. Thing is, it turned me off forever to those musicians, some of whom I thought were above that sort of thing. " and Quote - "if those musicians had bothered to educate themselves about the industry they were attempting to make a living in," How dare you?? Maybe you should think about some of those musicians allegedly 'uneducated' in the industry. And maybe you should get your facts straight before they fall out of your mouth. Or maybe you should just not say anything at all. |
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12 Sep 04 - 06:06 PM (#1270416) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Liam Or maybe you should go piss up a rope, Laura dear. There is no reason why a professional musician shouldn't be expected to know the most basic rules of the game of their industry, just like anyone else entering the work force. Do barbers need to know the laws regarding their licensure? Answer: yes. Why hold musicians to a different standard? Because they are "special"? What a load of shite. |
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12 Sep 04 - 08:50 PM (#1270562) Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) From: GUEST,Dave Lawrence. Guest Liam. Your foul mouthed advocacy of Bulmer would do credit to the man himself. Bulmer presented himself to those who signed with him as a friend and fellow musician, not as a music mogul, Bulmer and his odious sidekick broke the terms of these agreements, not the artists. Trust, foolish though it may be, was paramount in folk music at this time. These Bulmer threads may be tiresome to some, but if they serve to warn off only one potential victim I beleive them to have been worthwhile.
Feel free to start another thread if there's a need. Thanks. -Joe Offer- |