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12 Mar 04 - 08:05 PM (#1135220) Subject: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Nemesis There have been loads of threads about various aspects of performance - but, what's the view on dress code(?) Leaving matching hats aside - or not .. I've seen a really hideous and insensitive (I thought) t-shirt on stage twice recently, emblazoned with a reference to necrophilia ... and considering a local murder trial involving musicians and this issue .. er, how would or could one raise the issue with a stranger who's obviously innured to the potential for offence? Or should audiences not take offence? Does it matter? Thoughts? |
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12 Mar 04 - 08:07 PM (#1135221) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Clinton Hammond A T-shirt is just a T-shirt.... |
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12 Mar 04 - 08:14 PM (#1135223) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Peace Symbols evoke reactions at some sort of fundamental level. When I see people wearing t-shirts that say, "Fuck You", I tend not to want to know them. Swastikas get a reaction from me. |
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12 Mar 04 - 08:21 PM (#1135228) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: mg I would leave, demand my money back and tell them why. mg |
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12 Mar 04 - 08:27 PM (#1135235) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Nemesis Hm, yes, Clinton, but supposing this was on your doorstep Murder report and someone turns up at a gig closeby to this, wearing a T-shirt bearing the legend "Dead girls don't say no" ?? Is this still acceptable? |
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12 Mar 04 - 08:29 PM (#1135241) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Nemesis Darn .. that didn't work .. cut and paste (sorry) http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1140826,00.html |
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12 Mar 04 - 08:47 PM (#1135250) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Amos Well, you're taking the position that if you don't like what his clothing says, you're not going to like what he sings. If this seems consistent to you, you better head for the box office and get your refund... A |
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12 Mar 04 - 09:00 PM (#1135255) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: freightdawg Just my two cents worth: The relationship between performer and audience goes two ways. Most self respecting performers want a certain level of respect from their audience. While some like more banter and give-and-take than others, I cannot imagine very many performers that would like some jerk in the audience to start playing a kazoo in the middle of a song. It goes both ways. The audience does not want to be insulted by anything the performer does. If you do not like a song you can leave. If you don't like the clothing you can also leave. I would consider such a t-shirt as beyond vulgar and I would immediately leave. Clinton, a t-shirt is not just a t-shirt. What you wear reflects what you think. Shirts with obscenities and vulgar statements let me know that the performer is probably someone I want to stay away from. That might be an innacurate first impression, but as the saying goes, you only have one chance. To me, if you want the audience to listen to the music, to evaluate the words of your songs, and to share in your talent, just wear clothing with no statements of any kind, and let the music do the magic. In my opinion, anyone who has to result to vulgarity (spoken, sung or worn) is a very, very, poor communicator. Freightdawg |
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12 Mar 04 - 09:00 PM (#1135256) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Uncle_DaveO Amos, I don't know about you, but I would attend, if I did, to be entertained, to have a good time. If the get-up of the musician(s) made me mad or just uneasy, I'm not going to have a good time, no matter how accomplished a musician the performer may be. Q.E.D. Dave Oesterreich |
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12 Mar 04 - 09:23 PM (#1135265) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Richard Bridge No no no. The function of the artist is not simply to entertain, but to disturb, to produce an emotional reaction, to cause to think. If you cannot tolerate that you do not deserve art. He casts something - they may not be pearls, but you are undoubtedly swine. |
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12 Mar 04 - 09:28 PM (#1135269) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Peace Right. |
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12 Mar 04 - 09:28 PM (#1135270) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: jimmyt Richard You are talking Artist here, not entertainer. I have seen and heard a lot of very entertaining groups that would not fall in the category of Artist. just my opinion Kind of like the offensive art pieces displayed at some avant garde galleries...you may make a case that it is art, but it is a hell of a lot easier to sell paintings that are pretty, and don't offend. |
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12 Mar 04 - 09:59 PM (#1135282) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Malcolm Douglas Art is as difficult to define as folk music, and a great deal of nonsense is bandied about on both subjects. I don't think we need to get involved in all that over a question like this. My own experience, for what it's worth, is that people who go in for potentially offensive t-shirt mottos are immature but, on the whole, harmless. The real nutters are the ones who dress conventionally (except sometimes for funny little woolly hats). Avoid anyone wearing a balaclava; that goes without saying. |
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12 Mar 04 - 10:04 PM (#1135285) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: freightdawg Richard, A t-shirt that says "F**k you" or "dead girls can't say no" is NOT ART. It is vulgar, repulsive and the outward indication of an rude, self absorbed individual. That kind of garbage does not make someone think, it does not further the artistic discussion, it is just "in-your-face" trash that is an indication of just how far society in general has degraded. If you want to use such language and discuss such topics in the group you associate with, then fine. In a grunge rock setting that clothing is probably the norm, not the exception. That's fine. I'll never attend those venues. But in a general audience setting with a wide variety of people present, I would interpret the clothing as an insult. And believe me, it is worn with that intention. Not to educate, not to challenge, just to inflame and insult. And that, sir, is no way to treat someone for whom you should have some measure of respect. Those of us who feel this way are NOT swine. Obscenities and vulgarities are NOT pearls. Freightdawg |
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12 Mar 04 - 10:19 PM (#1135295) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Richard Bridge Freightdawg I gently suggest you need to challenge your own repressions. What you say so strongly echoes the art establishment response, for example, to composers who "broke the rules" of classical composition, to "Dejeuner sur l'herbe", the response of the Reverend Dr. Bowdler to Shakespeare. Art - including the performance of folk music - may not be that great, but if it is not allowed to disturb it will never be great. Actually to ask the questions implied by "Dead girls can't say no" (or to ask why you are, if you are, threatened by the challenge "F**k You") may very well add to our understanding of both certain social malfunctions and certain sexual malfunctions. Our response is not only the result of thought but also of conditioning. The continued functioning of society requires us to understand these things in order to survive. |
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13 Mar 04 - 01:57 AM (#1135359) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,Kent Davis |
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13 Mar 04 - 02:23 AM (#1135361) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Gurney I may not know much about art, but I know what I like..... Folk music is folk art, it isn't an 'artist' who is entertaining an 'audience', but a bunch of folks entertaining each other. If someone sets out, through crass stupidity or sick humour, to upset someone else in the gathering, then that offended someone is just as entitled to upset the offender. I've never seen a professional singer displaying a shirt that is deliberately provocative, and if I saw someone with one, then I would try to get up next and carefully display my (ordinary) shirt and make a comment how nice it is. The audience reaction would no doubt send a clear message to offender and organisers. |
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13 Mar 04 - 02:52 AM (#1135367) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: greg stephens Richard Bridge: I feel threatened by threats. Isnt that what they are for? I tend to avoid groups of young men with fuck off T-shirts, skinhead haircuts and pitbull dogs, for example. I was not aware that this rather obvious reaction made me unfit to enjoy or understand art. |
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13 Mar 04 - 03:01 AM (#1135370) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,Kent Davis Mr. Bridge, I am sure freightdawg and all of us here are aware that art causes us to think. But what does it cause us to think? All thoughts are not equal. "Triumph of the Will" certainly made people think (that the Nazi cause was heroic). "The Birth of a Nation" made people think (that the KKK was a fine organization). Can you accept that those thoughts are wrong? Do I need to "challenge my repressions"? I assure you that I need, not to challenge them, but to strengthen them. There is a reason for repression. Would you agree that there are things which a person may be inclined to do, but which should not be done. Obviously, you think that at least one natural inclination should be repressed (namely, the inclination to leave a performance when one is insulted by the performer). Has some authority taught you that art which the Establishment opposes is great art? If so, challenge that authority! It would be hard to imagine a more "Establishment" figure than a Pope who was also a Medici, yet Leo X and Clement VII appreciated and promoted the work of Michelangelo. George III was certainly "Establishment", yet he appreciated and promoted the work of Handel. Finally, Mr. Bridge, you suggest that freightdawg ask himself why he feels threatened by public advocacy of necrophilia-inspired murder or by the statement "F*** You". Mr. Bridge, I can't speak for freightdawg but I feel threatened by thoses things because, well, they ARE threats. You didn't think that the phrase "F*** You" was an invitation to coitus, did you? |
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13 Mar 04 - 03:09 AM (#1135371) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,Peter Anybody want to start a collection to buy Mr Bridge a ticket to Soham and one of the T shirts in question? |
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13 Mar 04 - 04:20 AM (#1135385) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Richard Bridge Does this public outrage (to the extent it is there) imply that the first amendment to the American constitution is wrong? Kent Davis - what I am suggesting to you is that it is not necessary to feel insulted, particularly as an audience member. And suppression and education are not the same thing as repression. We all have impulses we control. And no, I am not suggesting that that which the establishment opposes is necessarily great art, rather that it is not necessarily thereby to be deemed not to be art. If, however the challenge to the establishment is part of what causes art to inspire thought, then the aspect of challenge is a virtue of the art. Merely to react that something is beyond the pale prevents consideration of artistic merit (if any). I imagine that most of the posters overnight to this thread are American. I appreciate that withdrawing from a manifestation of speech is not the same as saying that it should be suppressed, but there seems to be a similarity of thought. I thought Americans would rise in defence of free speech, but it seems that not all will do so. Would there be constitutionally valid legal ground today in the USA to prevent the printing and publication of either of the books cited, or Mein Kampf? Does this not provide food for thought? How far is it from saying that only speech (and therefore art) that does not offend is free? |
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13 Mar 04 - 04:40 AM (#1135390) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,Van Gough Mr Bridge - you are a pompous twat (I use that word rather than the one I first thought of to avoid causing unnecessary offence). |
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13 Mar 04 - 04:58 AM (#1135396) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: treewind Freightdawg has it right. "Appropriate" means "approriate to the venue" and there may be places where obscene slogans on T shirts are not considered offensive, but not all venues are the same. I'm all for making the audience think, challenging conventional views etc., but the T shirt slogans mentioned don't express any constructive thought or say anthing original. I've seen plenty of far wittier ones that do. Anahata |
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13 Mar 04 - 05:56 AM (#1135409) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: George Papavgeris In my view, the artist v entertainer argument is immaterial. The moment a performer gets up on stage, he/she is going into public domain. Any statement he/she makes thereafter, whether in word, song, gesture or clothing, is public, whether he/she intends it to be or not. And the performer had better be ready to deal with whatever reaction is caused by the statement, all the way from people leaving and demanding their money back to heckling and verbal abuse. Perhaps the performer was in the wrong venue to start with, or addressing the wrong audience for his/her talents and message - tough, they still have to deal with it. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want - in private. But the moment they step on the stage and make a public statement of that belief, they take the responsibility for the message they project and the reaction it will cause, whatever that is. |
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13 Mar 04 - 06:11 AM (#1135411) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: matai I'm sure if a musician (I presume male) got up on stage with a shirt which read 'dead girls dont say no' he would most likely have nothing in his musical repertoire that would interest me.....(i mean, how predictable!)then again if a woman got up on stage to perform and she had a shirt saying 'dead boys dont say no' her music might prove to be very interesting indeed. |
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13 Mar 04 - 06:13 AM (#1135413) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: greg stephens Richard Bridge: many people disagreeing with you here are British, by the way, and not at all versed in the nuances of the American constitution. And I think most of us(except you) can make an easy distinction between (1) "Le Dejeuner sur l'herbe", a pleasant picture of a lady who's gone for a picnic and forgotten to put her clothes on and (2) a student or similar who wears a T-shirt saying "Fuck off I like shagging corpses" with the express intentention of epater-ing the bourgeois. |
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13 Mar 04 - 06:15 AM (#1135414) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: matai sorry I didn't sign. In with a grin, matai |
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13 Mar 04 - 08:31 AM (#1135444) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: tempora Well, I think it's difficult to judge based on the clothes alone. The dressing is part of the performance, so you'll sorta have to look at the whole performance, if you get my drift... Stay a while, see if the performer has anything constructive to say in his music that could explain his dressing. If he does, then good enough for me. The t-shirt is there for a good reason. It's meant to provoke thought etc etc If it's obvious he's just wearing that t-shirt to insult & his music doesn't say otherwise, then get the hell out of there. & before you go, make a gift of rotten eggs. Regards, Elaine |
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13 Mar 04 - 09:51 AM (#1135471) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Amos Taking things entirely out of context means that blanket conclusions are likely to be off the mark, eh? I would be inclined to agree with Mister Bridge about the right of an artist or folksinger to wear anything he chooses, and print on it any essage he likes. As to what that might do to the effect created by his act...I'm inclined to think it is self-defeating. Bad taste, at best, and offputting. But no worse than name-calling. A |
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13 Mar 04 - 10:20 AM (#1135479) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: greg stephens "Take what you want from life, and pay for it", as the proverb says. Insult people if you wish, but accept the fact that they probably wont love you or listen to you. |
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13 Mar 04 - 10:39 AM (#1135490) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,Russ All questions of "art" aside, No matter what else he is, once he charges admission and gets up on the stage he is a vendor with a product and a target marker. Within limits determined by the legal system, vendors have a right to offer any product their little hearts desire. However, bendors ignore or dismiss or belittle or ridicule the reactions of the members of their target marker at their economic peril. It is without doubt the right of the vendor referred to in Nemesis' first post to decide that the purpose of his performance is to make people "think," or mad, or even mad enough to leave to concert. The success of his presentation will, of course, be a function of the size of the audience at the end. But if he "succeeds" who wants to listen to any whining on his part or the part of his defenders? |
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13 Mar 04 - 10:43 AM (#1135492) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Peace People are entitled to their opinions. They are also entitled to keep 'em to themselves. If a person--by invitation or otherwise--wore a t-shirt like that in either my classroom or home, they would have to turn it inside out and stay or continue to expose me to their art statement and leave. That's the way it is. Alternatively, expose me to that when I've paid to see and hear a performance, I would get my money back and leave. That's the way it is. Personal rather than state censorship. Bruce M |
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13 Mar 04 - 11:18 AM (#1135507) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Uncle_DaveO Richard Bridge said, in part: Does this public outrage (to the extent it is there) imply that the first amendment to the American constitution is wrong? This is a logical fallacy. The Constitution is a prescription of the form which the government of the United States shall take. It is emphatically not any kind of direction to individuals (except as they may act as agents of government) as to what their attitude may be, or what actions they may take in relation to what (in this case) may be seen as a provocation. Now, those actions of individuals might turn out to be extreme enough to be illegal; that's understood. But even in that case it is the statutes or ordinances which are involved, not the Constitution. Mr. Bridge's comment is a red herring. Dave Oesterreich |
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13 Mar 04 - 11:22 AM (#1135508) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: freightdawg I knew it would not be long before someone trotted out the first amendment. What we are talking about here is not the right of someone to wear trash. The first amendment guarantees that anyone who wants to look like an idiot and sound like an idiot (whether it be racism or sexism or whatever) has that right. That is why I said in an earlier post that if you want to wear and discuss such things in your group or in a venue where everyone entering that venue expects such behavior, then you are more than welcome to do so. But I believe we are talking about whether it is appropriate, in a venue that (I am assuming) would be considered a general public venue, with a wide variety of people present, to wear the same trash. You can stand outside and yell "fire" all day long. But if you go inside an crowded theater and do the same thing you will be charged with a crime. The skin heads and neo-nazis have the right, as provided in the constitution, to say whatever they want. The state, can, however, limit that speech as to time, place, duration, etc, based on a permit to march. The state cannot tell a woman she has to wear a top in the privacy of her home, but let her go to the mall and..... Society always has had, and always will have, certain standards that it holds appropriate (note the name of the thread) for public gatherings where a wide variety of views, opinions, and beliefs must be merged into somewhat of a cohesive whole. There will be those who think the standard is too confining, there will be those who feel it is to expansive. And, by the way Mr. Bridge, my id, ego and superego are all in one huge cosmic confluence where peace and serenity abide. Freightdawg |
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13 Mar 04 - 11:58 AM (#1135536) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Clinton Hammond I'd take my stage at my bar gigs wearing a T-shirt that said "Dead Girls Don't Say No"... And if you were offended and left, my response would be "fuck you"... Cause a T-shirt IS just a T-shirt... What's the old line??? "Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke"... But I also wear T-shirt from Unamerican.com ... Some of you won't like that either... and I still care not a ton of tinkers toenails... The self righteousness in this thread is almost as thick as the bullshit... Calling Richard Bridge a "pompous twat"??? Wow... there's the pot calling the kettle in THIS thread... Avoiding people because of the clothes they wear, the music they listen to, the pets they have, or the decorations they chose to have on, in, or through their skin? Now THAT'S pompous! I'm really glad I don't live in THAT world! |
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13 Mar 04 - 01:15 PM (#1135573) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: freightdawg My thanks to those who have posted to this discussion (I was going to list by name, but it was getting a little long.) My overall conclusion is that old saw, "we are just going to agree to disagree." I am not going to change Richard Bridges or Clinton's opinion, and they sure are not going to change mine. By the way, Clinton, in your bar setting - wear whatever you want and the owner will allow. Go nekkid if you want. You'll get no grief from me. Two thoughts keep coming back to me though - respect and decency. Where in the history of public discourse did we lose those two fundamental concepts? If, as Mr. Bridge asserts, I want to challenge you, to make you think, to make my art "great," then I must by necessity respect the fact that you initially disagree with me, and that you are entitled to that opinion. By at least acknowledging that common ground I have elevated the discussion and have made it more likely that you will hear, and perhaps even consider, my opinion. Anyone who uses clothing or lyrics that appeal to the profane and the vulgar is saying they do not respect me, my opinion, or even my right to hold that opinion. That is where public discourse breaks down and where Mr. Bridge and I have our greatest disagreement. He calls it "art" that needs to be offensive to be "great," and I call it offensive vulgarity that needs to be avoided. The second is decency. Imagine trying to explain the advertisement to practice necrophilia (as in one phrase under discussion) to an eight year old. Imagine the grandmother in the audience whose own granddaughter was raped and murdered. What about all the other phrases on t-shirts that espouse violence toward women and children, blacks, Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc, etc. How have we become so innoculated to indecency that we actually make excuses for such behavior? And Clinton calls me and those who agree with me "self-righteous." I thought taking a stand for the oppressed, the abused, the defenseless, and the downtrodden was one of the main definitions of righteousness. As the prophet said, "Let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream." Sorry, but we cannot have justice without righteousness. Freightdawg |
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13 Mar 04 - 01:17 PM (#1135574) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Uncle_DaveO ClintonHammond said: I'd take my stage at my bar gigs wearing a T-shirt that said "Dead Girls Don't Say No"... And if you were offended and left, my response would be "fuck you"... Thanks for the warning. Dave Oesterreich |
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13 Mar 04 - 01:37 PM (#1135585) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Cllr When a tragedy/disaster happens there are often jokes or one liners that circulate around by those that have not been closly invovled. Some times humour is used as a defence mechanism and is just unfeeling of the reactions it might produce. I would imagine that even those that laugh at such jokes would not try to say them to a victim or relative of someone who has suffered in this way, because it is a crass act of insensitivity at the very least. If a family member or friend of the murdered girl turned up and saw this guy would you really believe that they should just Deal with it?remember we are talking about a local situation here not something that is so far removed from their normal daily lives. The music community is fairly close and in this case it would be all too likley that someone involved could turn up. If the victim was a mudcatter or from your local area would you want this sort of thing in your localiity. We are NOT talking about Censorship we are talking about having a little sensitivity. |
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13 Mar 04 - 01:49 PM (#1135598) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Clinton Hammond " I must by necessity respect the fact that you initially disagree with me, and that you are entitled to that opinion." I think one of the most important lessons anyone can learn is that NO WHERE is it written that everyone is going to, or indeed HAS to agree with you all the time... But in all comedy, to paraphrase George Carlin, (A comic that I suspect a lot of people here would say is overly vulgar, and so dismiss him... it's your loss if that's the case) there has to be an overt exaggeration... To quote... "People say you can't joke about rape... I say fuck that... I think rape is hilarious... picture porky pig raping elmer fudd! Now THAT'S funny..." The T-shirt "Dead Girls Don't Say No" is the same thing... It's not really about necrophilia... it's about shock-humour... If you don't like it, fine... then don't wear it... but yer gonna have to accept it that LOTS of other people are gonna find it funner'n shit... And they're probably not gonna really care that you might not like it.... Again... it's just a T-shirt... It's like judging someone because they have tats... or face piercings... or 'punk' clothing... Or maybe they wear two different shoes... Or maybe they have eyes that are 2 different colours... Hey... maybe their SKIN is a different colour... The nerve eh... "My overall conclusion is that old saw, "we are just going to agree to disagree." Fair nuff FD... :-) |
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13 Mar 04 - 01:57 PM (#1135605) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Clinton Hammond Oh ya.. Nem.. about that URL you posted... There are freaks and weirdoes and lunatics all over the place... -I'm- not gonna change what I do because they CAN'T change what they do... I try not to let "The News" interfere with my real life... Cause really, no matter how many of such reports you see on TV or read about in the paper, there are countless others going unreported... I can't care about 'em all... It's simply too big... and it's something I have NO control over... So if it was up to me, I'd say not only is it acceptable... it's totally a non-issue... |
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13 Mar 04 - 02:07 PM (#1135611) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Cllr Ch you miss the point of my last post. While you can categorize the T shirt in relation to a general shock humour maybe bad taste maybe sexist with a take it or leave it approach The issue here is to do with the context of recent events in the locality. |
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13 Mar 04 - 02:09 PM (#1135613) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Amos No sense railing against what is essentially bad taste. You can't argue with the truth of the statement. But they don't say yes, either. A |
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13 Mar 04 - 02:21 PM (#1135625) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: KateG My response to the necrophiliac t-shirt is one of pity...is that the only thing the wearer can do to get a reaction? In your face vulgarity has become so commonplace that it has lost it's ability to shock. Let's face it, when fuck is used instead of umm, it becomes as meaningless as white noise. Whereas when an otherwise well-tempered and well-spoken person uses it, you KNOW they are upset. Then again, I have never understood why such a delightful activity as sex should be an expletive...might as well say "Ice Cream" in moments of stress. |
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13 Mar 04 - 02:42 PM (#1135641) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Clinton Hammond Cllr... we were cross posting, so I wasn't addressing your post at all really.... Sensitivity? Sure... At a Cancer Society benefit -I- was the guy who told a chum going out for a smoke between sets probably wasn't the nicest thing to do... But if I'm at a pub gig, I'm damn sure not gonna be worried that maybe someone in the pub might have a family member with a drinking problem before I sing "Drunken Sailor" |
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13 Mar 04 - 02:52 PM (#1135649) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Peace Frankly, I don't care what people wear on stage or even if they do. But, if I feel personally insulted, I'll leave. CH is right: fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. But, some people just got no sense of humour. I may be one of 'em. Life is a simple thing. Don't complicte mine and I won't return the favour. |
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13 Mar 04 - 06:48 PM (#1135801) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Richard Bridge This is getting interesting. I guess not many people here rate Annie Sprinkle as an artist (the subject of my daughter's degree thesis and so of some interest to me). But I've been dabbling with censorship issues ever since defending some of the early UK "video nasties" - most of which are now regarded as fairly non-shocking. I think I might leave it a bit before coming back. But permit me to but three buts. First, please don't misrepresent what I say. The US constitution not only affects government, but also for example by and large prevents injunctions in the US to restrain defamatory statements - and has relatively recently been used to decide on policy grounds not to enforce a UK libel money judgment. So it may not be such a red herring. Finally for this posting, without going too far down the feminist road, why is it insulting to call someone a twat (or equivalent)? It is a convention that needs some examination. I'm not sure if the expression is meaningful in the USA, but in the UK it is a vulgar expression for the female pudendum, regarded for some reason as less offensive than the usual "c**t" (to adhere to local censorship convention since breaking it at this moment will not enhance the debate). |
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13 Mar 04 - 07:11 PM (#1135815) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: alison I have a completely different problem... I'm playing in a nudist colony next week (clothes not optional).... what the hell do I wear? Its a St Pat's night gig - only stipulation being you have to wear somthing green? eye shadow? slainte alison |
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13 Mar 04 - 07:22 PM (#1135822) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Joybell Well I'm intrigued by the post by Malcolm Douglas about the people in conventional clothes and "funny little woolly hats". Are they an English type? Does the American constitution have anything to say about them? I don't think we have them here. Joy |
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13 Mar 04 - 07:27 PM (#1135827) Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes? From: Peace c**t? The female coat? I don't get it. |
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13 Mar 04 - 10:37 PM (#1135893) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: matai Actually > (New Zealand slang), no one gets it...it's spelt queynt and it is only since modern day man/woman has vulgarized it and misused it that it is no longer allowed to be spelt out in public forums. Matai |
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14 Mar 04 - 05:05 AM (#1135996) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: George Papavgeris |
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14 Mar 04 - 05:29 AM (#1136002) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST The musucian has every right to wear the tshirt. Any member of the audience who is offended has as much right in my view to kick the shit out of him. |
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14 Mar 04 - 11:37 AM (#1136165) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Fiona I think it's funny how over time what is/isn't offensive changes. Some thirty years ago I remember my father turning off the TV when Jethro Tull was playing because he found Ian Andersons unkempt appearance so offensive. |
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14 Mar 04 - 11:48 AM (#1136170) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Clinton Hammond "I think it's funny how over time what is/isn't offensive changes" That's sorta the whole point of the album "Too Old To Rock 'n' Roll: Too Young To Die" :-) |
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14 Mar 04 - 12:25 PM (#1136197) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: freightdawg Alison, How about a really big guitar?? I guess if you play harmonica you're out of luck. ;-) Freightdawg |
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14 Mar 04 - 01:05 PM (#1136224) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Amos Roll in white glue and shamrocks. And don't give Mick the schedule!! A |
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14 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM (#1136234) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: The Unicorn Man I wear T Shirts were ever I go. Playing or not playing. And if I can think of a funny slogen or a point I want to make I get it printed on the back. The T shirts are high quality tye dye this however doubles the price of the T Shirt, but it does work for me. Why only last Towersey Festival 2003 I was sporting a T Shirt with a wizard on it standing on a cliff edge and shouting into the howling wind which said "I am very philosophical. Life is too short for wasting on arse-holes" This caused more people to laugh and taik to me than I have ever known. It makes people laugh and it is good advice. |
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14 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM (#1136235) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Maurice Mann I suppose the First amendment was the reason for the Second amandment MM |
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14 Mar 04 - 02:29 PM (#1136264) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,Van Gough Go for it Mr Bridge if ever I'm in troubled waters I'll look for you ;-) |
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14 Mar 04 - 02:41 PM (#1136274) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Celtaddict Alison, a friend accepted a gig at a "family campground" before he realized it was a nudist colony, and told me he was never so glad he plays a guitar and not a flute! However, from a variety of musicians, I have never heard of a naturist (evidently the currently preferred term for clothing-optional) venue that did not permit visiting performers to dress or not as they see fit. You might check the official information; you may have been misinformed. Naturally such places do not want folks to come just to gawk, so many do not allow guest participants who choose to stay clothed, but a hired performer generally does fall into rather a different category. Seamus Kennedy has some good tales from playing unclothed venues (in shorts behind his guitar I believe). |
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14 Mar 04 - 03:29 PM (#1136298) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Peace Friend was playing at a nudist colony years ago. He was a guitar player. He tripped while shooting a few rounds of golf, and another golfer stepped on his 'you know'. He was rushed to emergency where the attending physician said he'd have to call in a recorder player. My friend asked why. The doctor said, "You'll have to learn to finger that when you're taking a pee, otherwise you'll piss all over yourself. Good luck. |
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14 Mar 04 - 04:32 PM (#1136330) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Richard Bridge You know what? As far as I readily remember this is the first time I have agreed with Clintion Hammond! |
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14 Mar 04 - 04:34 PM (#1136331) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Richard Bridge And I'll bite: what has the second amendment to do with the first? |
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14 Mar 04 - 07:05 PM (#1136433) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,Singout/Penny Nevermind slogans on t-shirts. I always appreciate a performer who goes to the trouble to wear something other than a t-shirt and shorts or wornout jeans. To me it show appreciation to the audience for being there. Penny |
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14 Mar 04 - 09:45 PM (#1136532) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Peace You ain't seen my legs! |
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14 Mar 04 - 10:20 PM (#1136553) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: JennieG Alison, You'll have to be very careful if you play squeezebox won't you..... Cheers JennieG |
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14 Mar 04 - 11:02 PM (#1136575) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Peace Or stand-up bass. Imagine pluckin' the string closest to, well, I don't really want to peruse this--sorry, pursue this any further. I'll leave now. |
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15 Mar 04 - 05:23 AM (#1136765) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: alison well the boys can hide behind guitars, banjos, bodhrans etc.... I on the other hand am a whistle and accordion player...... admittedly we don't have to go completely nude... but they would like us to be a bit nude..... I reckon we all go topless with a few shamrock pasties... the boys are OK with this (actually its been them who have been more worried!!) and green undies behind the instruments... we'll see... slainte alison |
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15 Mar 04 - 11:09 AM (#1137031) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Dave Bryant Alison - As a frequent naturist, I'd be more worried about wearing something sutable for St Pat's night than the actual nudity. Why not make three large shamrock leaves to attach to the suitable places on a bikini (green if you have one that colour) ? If you don't mind being a bit more daring - how about using body-paint for the shamrocks. Alternatively wear a black leotard with a frothy white top and say you're a pint of Guiness ! |
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15 Mar 04 - 12:50 PM (#1137146) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,Late Again |
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15 Mar 04 - 01:01 PM (#1137157) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,Late Again Thread has gone off topic, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway. Seems to me that the offensive thing was the murder--and the T-shirt wearer managed to draw attention back to this murder, for a moment at least. Even better, the T-shirt wearer managed to stimulate a discussion that spans continents. I'd say that this is a victory for art, for the artist, and most important, for the victim, because it keeps her story alive-- |
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15 Mar 04 - 02:06 PM (#1137229) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: dick greenhaus Aw, c'mon folks. Certainly a performer (artist or not) can do anything s/he wants to. As can a (prospective) audience. THis isn't a question of rights, but rather one of "if you don't please me I don't want to reward you." Overly inappropriate performers wind up not performing. |
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15 Mar 04 - 03:11 PM (#1137296) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Richard Bridge On the other hand Dick, there is a strong hint in your stance of her majesty not being amused. If you censor all art that is capable of causing offence you do art a disservice. If you do not censor it but withdraw then you likely do yourself a disservice. If enough withdraw, and you have a capitalist system without art subsidy, both art and the audience lose. I hope not all art is about monetary reward. But conversely Dylan took up guitar because without it people would not listen to his poetry. I wonder if he was right or ought to have paid someone else to sing and play it in stead? And what about great comedians like Lenny Bruce? I hate to quote George Michael, but "listen without prejudice". If a folk club turns out to be country, I rarely leave and usually listen to the whole evening, in case there is something I like. |
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15 Mar 04 - 05:34 PM (#1137416) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Nemesis Dear Richard, Just to reiterate the point Cllr was gently making .. the T-shirt wearer was performing a few miles away from this murder, among an audience potentially containing other local people who potentially know both victim and perpetrator. And I could hardly reccommend the (regular) event to the (local) prosecution witness (and friend) whose olfactory senses directed the police towards forensic evidence (that was found to include used condoms). Would you Richard? |
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15 Mar 04 - 05:54 PM (#1137437) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Clinton Hammond "this is the first time I have agreed with Clintion Hammond!" All eventually, come over to the dark side... :-) |
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15 Mar 04 - 07:01 PM (#1137494) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: M.Ted Nemesis-- I note that your concern is for the "Potential for Offense"--have you considered the "Potential for Offense" in confronting a stranger because you don't like their T-Shirt? |
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15 Mar 04 - 07:05 PM (#1137500) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Clinton Hammond EVERTHING has the "Potential for Offense"... So what? We should stop doing anything??? |
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15 Mar 04 - 07:10 PM (#1137504) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,DAMON Nemesis, As regards your initial question, it certainly does matter! FD mentioned respect and decency earlier and I've got to agree with him...it's clear the individual you mention seeing at local gigs has neither decency nor respect for the suffering of Jane Longhursts' family or friends, or indeed for that of Graham Coutts'. I'd be interested to know what sort of material this person was performing on stage... and besides, why would a performer need to use a T-shirt to convey a message in the first place...?? Cheers |
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15 Mar 04 - 07:19 PM (#1137513) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: dick greenhaus Wow. If you censor all art that is capable of causing offence you do art a disservice. I don't advocate censorship at all. Never have, don't expect I ever will. IRRELEVANT If you do not censor it but withdraw then you likely do yourself a disservice. Very possibly. But it's my time and my money and my sensibilities. If enough withdraw, and you have a capitalist system without art subsidy, both art and the audience lose. I hope not all art is about monetary reward. Certainly not. But performing is. The audience doesn't lose if the entertainer fails to entertain, which is why they're voting with their pocketbooks. But conversely Dylan took up guitar because without it people would not listen to his poetry. I wonder if he was right or ought to have paid someone else to sing and play it in stead? Obviously he was right--enough people bought his act to make is phenomenally successful. Dylan is a fine example of what I mean--I personally have always found the hokey Oakie delivery off-putting, and I don't bother with his performances. Am I a loser? I don't think so. Has art suffered because of my taste (or lack of same)? I don't think so. |
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15 Mar 04 - 07:21 PM (#1137515) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Uncle_DaveO GUEST Late Again said, in part: Seems to me that the offensive thing was the murder--and the T-shirt wearer managed to draw attention back to this murder, for a moment at least. But the flaunting of that line on the T-shirt is not just bringing attention back to the event; it's by implication approving and adopting the event as the wearer's, implying that the event is appropriate for humor. My take on it, anyway. Dave Oesterreich |
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15 Mar 04 - 07:47 PM (#1137532) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: kendall Twist it and spin it all you want, filth is not and never will be art. I was raised in a society where most people respected each other, now we live in a cage of rats wher the animals don't respect anyone, including themselves. Sad. Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself. |
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15 Mar 04 - 09:37 PM (#1137592) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Peace FUCK YOU isn't art. FuCk YoU isn't either. Keeriste, if anything can be art, let's have songs that all end moon, spoon, June. Someone said the intent of art is to shock. So too is it a friggin' bomb's intent to shock. That don't make it art. I don't really give a tinker's damn who wears what, but if I have paid for the privilege and I get a surprise I don't like, I then get my money back, leave, and do not return. In my house it's my rules. That's that. Take off your hat at the door, don't spit on the floor, don't pee in the ashtrays (OK, I bend that one a little), and don't kick the dog--I'll do that. This 'in your face' shit that happens should respect people's 'personal space'. There, that ought to piss off a few people. I haven't done that for a while. Trollin' today I guess. |
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16 Mar 04 - 12:00 AM (#1137675) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,guest I don't think it has anything to do with T-shirts at all, but aesthetics. As we come into the hot summer season of festivals, I would ask persons of an obese disposition, no matter how comfortable and cool (temperature wise as opposed to hep) it makes you feel, please do not wears short pants on stage. |
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16 Mar 04 - 12:39 AM (#1137691) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Peace Aesthetics? You ain't SEEN my legs. |
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16 Mar 04 - 11:28 AM (#1138174) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge I `ad that Paul Simon in my cab the other night. `e `ad a t-shirt on with "ART" written on the front. I said is that in respect of that Garfunkel? `e said, Nah, it`s to shock people. I said it don`t do much to me!! What am I like? |
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22 Mar 04 - 10:55 AM (#1142969) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: tempora I recognize the need for art that 'brings people out of their comfort zones', & I tend to be sympathetic towards this objective of art. However, I think the issue here is to what extent artists should be allowed to go. Artists are still humans & they're expected to behave as any decent human should. While it's commendable to take that courageous step of 'shocking' people, 'art' is not a good reason for behaving in an inhumane or indecent manner. You can't physically abuse someone, then claim it was in the interests of art. 'Art' is important, but so are many other things. The feelings of the people in the audience for one. To have such a traumatic incident in the family - how can you justify anything that could bring greater hurt to those who knew the victim? The situation is different from wearing a provocative shirt in public that has the potential to offend. I'm betting that the artist here KNEW about the case & KNEW there was a high chance that there were people in the audience who might have a personal connection to the case. It is important for artists to be given the liberty to express themselves and pursue their art. BUT artists should not be exempt from the common, basic standards of human behaviour. Elaine |
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22 Mar 04 - 11:34 AM (#1143009) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Clinton Hammond Wow... I'm glad I don't live in a lot of your worlds... How dull they must be... |
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22 Mar 04 - 12:13 PM (#1143053) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: GUEST,Peter A easy; In my opinion dress codes are similar to other ways of communicating, they try to tell something. If the way you dress is too out of phase with most of the audience you have a communication problem. It's like stuttering. Your message can be the most sophisticated but to some people the stuttering attracts the most attention and they fail to take your message. One have to decide; what is the most important, your song/music or your way of dressing. Are you on the stage or the catwalk? |
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22 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM (#1143059) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: el ted I like to wear a suit of armour but it makes it bloody hard to play my guitar with chain mail gloves on. |
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22 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM (#1143300) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: The Fooles Troupe Wardrobe Failures during Folk Music |
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22 Mar 04 - 06:25 PM (#1143313) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Nemesis Okay, Clinton, Consider a T Shirt worn, say, 6 blocks down from Ground Zero Illustration: (plane flying into two towers) and caption something like "AL Quaeda 2,976, Twin Towers Nil ... Party on Dudes!!! Or, outside the Spanish Embassy: "201 Waiter vacancies in Spain .. apply now" I dunno .. okay, they're dumb - maybe you can think of something worse than that .. I can't imagine, but you get the idea? Offensive? But, then again, I live in a dull world. |
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22 Mar 04 - 06:39 PM (#1143329) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: dick greenhaus Everybody has a right to dress, and sing, and perform in any manner that's legal. What everybody doesn't have is the right to a paying audience. |
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22 Mar 04 - 06:49 PM (#1143342) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: Bill D well, in a perverse way, I find it useful that some folks wear t-shirts with 'messages'--I do too, sometimes...Since they choose their shirts to reflect and/or express what they feel or think is funny, it allows me to decide whether or not to go near them! I am not sure what a necrophiliac slogan is supposed to express---if it's just that they have found what they consider a funny way to shock, then I am simply not amused. I would imagine that one of their problems is that most 'live' girls who meet them DO say 'no'.... If the local law allows them to wear that in public, all I can do is vote, as has been pointed out, with my feet and pocketbook. Words are NOT just words--history is full of examples, and T-shirts with words are a statement. I am reminded of the "1st Law of Hitch-Hiking" "Look like who you want to pick you up" |
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22 Mar 04 - 07:07 PM (#1143359) Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes? From: The Fooles Troupe A young Muso on stage wearing a "Fuck You" T-shirt? Maybe he missed the Punk Bandwagon... |