Were we ever that young?

24 Mar 04 - 07:13 AM (#1144698)
Subject: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Last night, I went to hear a gospel group at a coffee house. Before they sang, there was an hour and a half of open mike. My wife and I had never been to the place before, so we got there early enough to hear most of the open mike performers. After listening to the first two or three performers get up and do their two song limit, all the familiar words came rushing into my mind... "song-whiners", navel-gazers.." My reaction was like most people my age... I felt like yelling out, Quitcherbellyakin! As I sat there for awhile, though, a different perspective came to me. Yes, the songs were mostly about lousy love affairs, delivered in a mumbled, almost incoherent fashion. And, everyone seemed to want to make it clear that they were "sensitive."
But as time went by, my feelings toward the singers changed. Most of them were in their early or mid twenties... one young man introduced a song he had written when he was young (five years ago, when he was in high school.)

When I think back to when I was that young, I see things very differently. I started playing guitar when I was about 15, and yet the first time I ever sang in front of anyone... I mean ANYONE, including my own family, I was 29 years old. It wasn't so much that I was shy. It was more that I was so insecure and lacking in confidence that I just didn't have the courage to expose myself on stage, in front of an audience. I knew I wasn't very good (although in retrospect, I was a lot better than I believed I was.) I just didn't want to be hurt. Simple as that. And I saw that in these kids, who could talk about when they were young. I ended up feeling that what these kids needed more than anything was a hug. Someone to encourage them, even if they will NEVER be very good. There can be a smugness about being good, that diminishes people who are less gifted. Deliver us from that.

When I think of those kids getting up there, all nervous and apologetic, I think of the kids in the 60's getting up at hootenannies, introducing a song by saying, "I will now attempt to play..." It was an open request not to be judged too harshly, because they were so unsure of themselves. I heard those same introductions last night. Nothing has changed. Unless it's us.

So, whatever happened to that insecure, overly introspective kid we were? Has the awkwardness, self-deprecation and openly stated need to be accepted been replaced by smugness, cynicism, bitterness, hardness and judgement? Are we able to acknowledge our own limitations, our confusion and need for love, or has that all been crusted over with cynicism and sarcasm?

I see my sons struggling to become the men they will become, and I remember that when you haven't accepted yourself, you can't see outward. You do see yourself as the center of the universe, and you do a lot of navel gazing, trying to figure out who you are. The lucky ones never stop seeking to understand themselves. I think my sons are going to be that way and I am thankful for it. I know that as they come to love and accept themselves more, then they'll be able to see others more clearly.

In the meantime, maybe it's time to cut kids a little slack... those navel-gazing song-whiners who write God-awful songs and mumble the words so self-consciously. They expose themselves in all their vulnerability and inadequacy. Have we lost the ability to do that?

Were we ever that young?

Jerry

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24 Mar 04 - 07:53 AM (#1144715)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: alanabit

I sure was Jerry. I am horribly guilty of all the offences you listed in your post. I wrote – or more often overwrote – ditties about joys and sorrows of my life. One day I lost a file full of my sensitive songs. Oh what a tragedy that no one ever found it and returned it! What a disaster it would have been if it had been put into the next dustbin. Twenty five years on I am praying that just that actually happened. Burn all the evidence I say!

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24 Mar 04 - 08:05 AM (#1144724)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I'm with Jerry all the way on that. Being honest means singing songs that speak to what you are concerned with. They may be songs you have heard from other people, or found for yourself, or made up yourself, but there are reeasons why we sing some songs and not others. (And most people have to write a good few songs that don't work too well before we learn how to write songs that do work. And if we don't sing songs in public we'll never learn the difference.)

At different time in our life we have different things we are concerned with. A young person may be thinking about love and rejection and insecurity and stuff like that, an older person will be thinking about time passing, and sooner or later about dying and about the good old days and so forth. (And probably also about love and rejection and insecurity too, but maybe a bit more circumspect about opening up about stuff like that.)

As for mumbling, you have to crawl before you can walk. Mumbling is one way of hiding a little as you open yourself. But singing out a little bit too loud can be another. So is playing finger-breaking music that doesn't get anywhere. We all put on fronts from time to time.

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24 Mar 04 - 08:21 AM (#1144732)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,MMario

sometimes I think I'm still that young!

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24 Mar 04 - 09:13 AM (#1144780)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Good for you, Mario!

Jerry

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24 Mar 04 - 11:08 AM (#1144868)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: C-flat

I know exactly what you mean Jerry! I recently attended an opem-mike evening (the first in many a year) and saw a couple of younger versions of myself, all serious and self-conscious, presenting their angst-ridden songs of unrequited love etc. My first instinct was that these kids haven't had enough experience of life to write about anything but I decided I needed to lighten up a little and cut some slack and, in doing so, found myself enjoying the evening.
The organiser seemed to be using the evening to promote himself, however, and he irritated me with the "smugness" you describe to the point that I wanted to tell him to give the stage back to the kids instead of upstaging them. I was delighted when one of the "hopefulls" asked if I would do a couple of songs with him and tried my best to operate as a "safety net" without intruding on his music. There's a fine line between encouraging a performer and frightening him or her off, but I've usually found the very best players are considerate and tolerant with up and coming talent without feeling the need to display their superiority.
I've lost count of the number of "old guys" I foisted myself on to, in my youth, in the hope of gaining a little of what they had.
But yes, Jerry, if I had once forgotten being that young, I was certainly reminded that night!

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24 Mar 04 - 11:23 AM (#1144878)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

I tell you, C. If you want to light up a room, just compliment a young musician who is feeling insecure and frightened. I've had musicians who are now better known and far more successful than I ever was who still express their appreciation for my encouragement when they didn't know if they were any good, or where they were going.
It doesn't take much, but it can mean everything.

Jerry

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24 Mar 04 - 11:58 AM (#1144910)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Blackcatter

well, I'm only 37, so I do remember that "young" time. But it took me until I was 27 before I was willing to do an open mike night.

I don't do it very well, but I see other older musicians connecting with the younger ones. It's a good thing because one's connections are made, the younger can be more accepting of tips from years of experience. Also, if you aren't a fan of their style of music, maybe they haven't been exposed to the different styles out there. I know that while I sing primarily trad. Irish, etc., part of my style comes from the spirituals and gospel songs I sing in church.

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24 Mar 04 - 12:07 PM (#1144913)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,MMario

maybe good - maybe not Jerry! Seems like it has all the disadvantages of being young with none of the benefits.

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24 Mar 04 - 12:10 PM (#1144916)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: wysiwyg

My problem is the reverse. I look at people in their 30's and 40's and wonder, "Was I ever that old?"

~S~

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24 Mar 04 - 12:27 PM (#1144928)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Little Hawk

Good post, Jerry. Yeah, I clearly remember being like that and writing those amateurish songs about unrequited love...a raftload of them! Pretty dismal stuff generally, but some of it was actually okay.

As you say, those kids need encouragement, not putdowns. Thanks for reminding me about it.

- LH

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24 Mar 04 - 12:45 PM (#1144949)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

Call me a snob, but I still can't abide teenage philosophers wailing out their diary entries as if they had lived.

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24 Mar 04 - 12:54 PM (#1144960)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Snob!

Actually if I remember the songs I sang back then, I don't think I had the nerve to open up that much.

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24 Mar 04 - 01:01 PM (#1144966)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Funny -- I never thought of writing up my own heartbreaks as a substitute for the songs I had learned from Warner, Ives, Leadbelly, Dyer-Bennett, and gawd-knows-who-else, because I knew, for one thing, that I had no idea what those efforts really felt like and so I couldn't pull it off to the same standard of music and poetry. When I stood up at the local coffeehouse it was to sing Trouble in Mind or Wild Colonial Boy. I wouldn't have written about Jenny Brown and her little sister because I felt I wouldn't be able to make a convincing song out of it, compared to the "real" stuff.

In other words, I wasn't good enough. I think the yonkers Jerry saw can be readily forgiven for wailing their wee souls out but they'd be better off if they spent the same amoutn of time learning to perform Barbry Ellen, or even Can't Help But Wonder or John Henry. That would give them some practice putting agony into song, and then they could make thier own appear in a workable fashion.

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24 Mar 04 - 01:04 PM (#1144968)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Amergin

We were at New Year's Eve concert celebration type of thing. The main group was the Myshkin Warblers (or something) they were great...but before we could listen to them, there were three other acts. the first one was some woman with an accordian...the music sounded great...her voice got annoying...it wasn't that she sang bad...she just mostly didn't sing but made sounds...or same the same line over and over sometimes ten times in succession....

then came the next act...it was this person (the jury is still out if this person was male or female) who had a backup band consisted of recorded computerised music.. they played an electric guitar and every song was introduced with "This song doesn't have a title, but it is about me and my life. I'm sure you will like it" and then proceeded to sing the most whining moaning, bitching about everytihing songs I have ever hearrd....we were going to walk out but I wanted to see what the next act was....luckily we did wait...cause the next act was fabulous...and then the Myshkin Warblers were bloody awesome.

I wrote a song about the second act....it was to the tune of Pub With No Beer:

the song about me
(tune: the pub with no beer)

chorus:

Oh, it's awesome tonight on the stage all alone
Singing my poetry into this microphone
But there's nothin' so important so lovely you see
than to clap hands in awe to every song about me


1. Well, I stand on the stage, my guitar in my hands
Computer generated music, my backup band,
Oh, the audience is wild, this cold New Year's Eve
As they bask in the glory of the song about me.

2. I'm moaning and groaning and strumming along
Bestowing my gifts to this worshipping throng,
And the frowns on their faces quickly smile with glee
When they realise I'm singing another song about me

3. Now some people may complain the song has no name,
That my songs are no good, they all sound the same
But I'm the one who wrote them and I know you'll agree
It's a divine privilege to hear a song about me

4. Then in comes the drunkard, all covered with beer,
He pulls down a chair, and plops down his fat rear,
He burps out aloud, interrupting my key
He is showing no respect to the song about me

5. His glasses stand empty as he gets up to leave
My eyes open on shock it's so hard to believe
My soulful singing quickly turns into a plea
As I sing to an empty bar, The Song About Me.

nathan tompkins

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24 Mar 04 - 01:31 PM (#1144993)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

LOL, Nathan!! Good shew!

A

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24 Mar 04 - 01:38 PM (#1144999)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Mind you, young singers can get just as much stick for singing traditional songs about things they don't know much about.

I get uneasy about intergenerational hostility. Whichever way it goes.

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24 Mar 04 - 01:54 PM (#1145011)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

I'm with you, Kevin: In the 60's, it was alot of young kids singing traditional songs about topics they knew even less about than their own insecurities. It's not just songwriters, but anyone who is just starting out singing and performing. I remember when I was in my 20's, and I tried to sound like I was some old codger sitting out on the back porch playing his banjo. Now I are one.

Jerry

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24 Mar 04 - 02:37 PM (#1145049)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Jim Dixon

I don't think it's a matter of snobbery so much as knowing the value of encouragement, plus having (or knowing) a kid whom you care enough about to want them to succeed.

How many of us would have accomplished anything if nobody had ever encouraged us to try something that we at first weren't particularly good at? Where would we be if no one had ever praised our first feeble efforts?

Since becoming a parent, I have learned to enjoy many things that I once never thought I'd enjoy.

For example, I've probably only watched about twenty basketball games in my life, and 18 of them were when my son was playing.

Maybe you have to be a parent yourself to understand this.

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24 Mar 04 - 02:42 PM (#1145053)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Amergin

thanks Amos! it was a truly awful act!

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24 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM (#1145107)
Subject: RE: BS: Were we ever that young?
From: Rapparee

I get horribly bored with the "me" type stuff coming from someone who hasn't, well, experienced it. Lost puppy love is one thing, but being widowed or widowered is quite another.

But then -- if there's no encouragement there's no growth. If there's no growth, where's the next generation going to come from? Then the music I love WILL die.

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24 Mar 04 - 03:48 PM (#1145115)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Of course it can work the other way. Sometimes the last thing a young person wants is encouragement from parents.

Sometimes being told it's tuneless rubbish can be confirmation that it's worth doing; being told it sounds great means there must be something wrong with it.

Young folk musicians come in two flavours - those with parents who love folk music, and have encouraged them all the way; and those who are into it in face of parents who think it's total crap.

I get a feeling that a lot more of the second sort are starting to emerge. That is as well, because there are a lot more people in the last generation like that second bunch of parents (who think we're crap) than there are like the first (who are us.)

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24 Mar 04 - 04:40 PM (#1145159)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

I don't think this really happened to me.

I started singing in front of people with a great friend when we were 13 in 1963 as a folk duet. We both carried a tune well and actually harmonized pretty good. We both played Gibson small body guitars and I learned how to chord a 5-string Kay banjo. We were invited to play at different hootenanys and for other different affairs and parties some times being the youngest performers there.

We were The Kingston Trio minus one. We practiced and worked pretty hard. We had a lot of fun at it and were lucky to have had the opportunities. We took ourselves seriously but not enough to not enjoy music for the good time that it gave us and who we played for.
In no way were we ever smarmy about it. Years later, this same friend and I formed a fairly successful country-rock band that played in the clubs for quite a few years and still occasionally gets together for a reunion gig. Though he has "retired" I continue to play and perform, mostly in bluegrass scenarios sometimes for money, other times just for the fun of it.

I give kids credit today for trying. But part of growing up is taking your chances. If you are going to get up and perform in front of people with the exception of your family (you hope!) you have to be prepared that someone is going to yell out, "you suck!" To me, having that happen to you and how you handle it, is a big part of learning how to grow up.

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24 Mar 04 - 04:54 PM (#1145169)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: dick greenhaus

Has anyone considered that an act can be good--or bad--regardless of age. One doesn't get better by having the bad stuff encouraged.

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24 Mar 04 - 05:03 PM (#1145175)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

I've considered it very much. Age is irrelevant. You can be good or suck no matter how old you are.

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24 Mar 04 - 05:07 PM (#1145182)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace

That confidence thing isn't automatic with age or maturity. After doing lots of stage performances over a ten/eleven year period from 1965-1976, to audiences that ranged in size from one (me) to 30,000 at Newport, I thought I'd never get the jitters again. Was doing a concert at McGill U in Montreal after what was probably 2000 stage sets all over North America in all kinds of melieus, and about fifteen minutes before I had to go on I was lookin' for a place to puke. (It was my audience (some of you will understand what I mean by that)) and I really couldn't go wrong on the stage. Keriste, I puked my guts out. Some people who had always seen me as a good stage performer couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. I think I heaved three times. I was two or three minutes late for the stage, went on and got two encores and a SO. This is not a 'pat my back' story. I have felt that type of 'nerves' very often. I guess it's nature's way of stopping me from becoming too complacent.

As to encouraging others, I made the mistake once of saying what I felt about another person's writing, and I wish with all my heart I could take those words back. I have only been able to do the next best thing: If I have nothing good to say, I bloody well FIND something good to say. If someone thinks enough of me to ask my opinion, I damn well owe them the kindest most considered things I can say.

Years back, I sang a few songs for a couple of people who wanted to hear them. One of the songs was excellent (Fool Like Me), well-written, good melody, neat guitar work. I had at that time recently finished it. You songwriters will understand what that's like: bust your ass for a week getting everything just right, and this guy says, "It brings me no pleasure." I could feel my soul collapse. I have never forgot that either. Today, for my own writing, I don't look for anyone's approval anymore. If I like it, that's good by me. However, younger people need our encouragement.

When I mark student poetry or essays, I find the positives--because it isn't much of a teacher who can't. In my first year of university--I'd been a high school dropout--I handed in a paper to the professor I liked most. I was anxious to see what he would say. The essay was about language and the structures of written English. I had worked for about 30 hours on that 2000 word essay. I received a mark in the 70s. Attached was a single-spaced typed critique that started, "Dear Mr Murdoch, I have read your essay and I find it to be scholarly, well-written and humourous. There were, however, a few errors of omission." The rest of the typed page tore the essay apart. I don't remember ANY of that. We all know that a pat on the back is only 6" higher than a kick in the ass, but give that pat first, and ya can say lots of stuff another person will learn from.

Sorry to go on so.

Bruce Murdoch

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24 Mar 04 - 05:12 PM (#1145190)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: DonMeixner

I was having this same conversation with a band mate the other nite. Only we talked about pop music and wondered wher the great voices were. I hear a lot of mediocre tenor types with small squeakie ranges and marginal to great guitar skills. Singing message songs that seem to mean something to someone. All these kids liking this stuff and I sit there looking for the wonder, waiting for the amazement.

Or maybe we have just become our parents.

Don

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24 Mar 04 - 05:34 PM (#1145209)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Brucie

If it sucks, why not say it sucks. Simon Crowell might be an asshole, but at least he's an honest asshole.

Lip service is really another form of bullshit.

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24 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM (#1145223)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Martin:

Because it is never absolutely true, and if you pretend you're just being honest, you're just being a sadist. A balance of encouragement and helpful criticism will help another person a lot more than blunt invalidation even if it seems justified because blunt invalidation loves no room for hope.

On the other hand, if what you are trying to do is not help but crush, then it is of course the method of choice. Depends on what effect you are trying to create, I guess.

A

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24 Mar 04 - 05:44 PM (#1145226)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace

Because, Martin, people are more important than my opinion of them.

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24 Mar 04 - 05:50 PM (#1145231)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST

This is probably another thread, but I think what's happening and has been for some time, is a confusion between the traditional roles of poetry and song. I've never claimed to write poetry. I write song lyrics. When someone starts claiming a song lyric is poetry I get uncomfortable. Poetry throughout the ages has been largely about self, song lyric about telling a story. A generalisation I know, but worth debating I think.Things began to get mixed up in the 60's and the problem has now reached epidemic proportions.As a general maxim I feel a poem is the way to look in, and a song is the way to look out....generally!

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24 Mar 04 - 05:58 PM (#1145236)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Looking out for the things worth encouraging is a lot harder and a lot more useful than being a smart-arse.

Anybody who's spent any time around folk-music will know how people can learn and improve over time, often amazingly so. And being encouraged to keep going is an important part of that.

And the other things is, how many people can think of singers, whom they really admire now for qualities in the way they sing, and what they sing, which the first time they heard them, they thought were dreadful, because they sounded differently from what was expected?

I remember once a friend pulled out a record her husband had brought home from a trip to America. "You must hear this, it's absolutely terrible". The singer was (then) young Loudon Wainwright III, and it wasn't - but it took time to tune into it.

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24 Mar 04 - 06:11 PM (#1145248)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST

One doesn't get better by having the bad stuff encouraged.

Surely, judging by other threads, we are supposed to be "inclusive" and encourage bad performers to carry on performing crap.

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24 Mar 04 - 06:12 PM (#1145250)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

People are important and if they suck you are doing them an injustice by not telling them so, especially if they REALLY suck.

Now if they are have potential, then let them know it and by all means encourage them. But if the music is playing in the key of A and they are singing in anything Bb or higher tell the truth , man. I'm not saying to say it meanly, but find a way to say it truthfully.
They need to find a different way to express themselves.

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24 Mar 04 - 06:16 PM (#1145254)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Stephen L. Rich

I see the same sorts of things on a weekly basis. I host a Friday night open mic. There's nothing in the world which can more effectively keep things in perspective than to watch a parade of young people repeat all of you mistakes.
Coversesly, there is no greater joy than seeing some young man or woman who has the spark;who has the magic and try to steer them away from the traps.

Stephen Lee Rich

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24 Mar 04 - 06:39 PM (#1145263)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"I'm not saying to say it meanly, but find a way to say it truthfully."

Well it certainly sounded like you were all in favour of saying it meanly: "If it sucks, why not say it sucks."

If someone's out of tune you point that out. That's helpful. Saying "You really are bloody useless" is not helpful, and it's very likely not true either.
...................

Some songs are stories, some aren't. It's always been that way. And you can't draw a line between song and poetry. A lot of great poems would make terrible songs, and a lot of great songs aren't great poems. But there are plenty which are both at the same time.

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24 Mar 04 - 06:40 PM (#1145264)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace

Martin,

I agree with you. However, there are gentle ways to accomplish most things, and I am not presuming you don't know or do that. I think you would. And I have gently directed a few people to their real vocations in management, backstage work, sound work, etc. However, writing is about trying. If I had been told that when I was sixteen, I would have quit most likely. I did my best songwriting from the time I was about 23 to now. I had thought I'd never write songs again, and at the tender age of 56 I just finished the best thing I've ever done. However, there wasn't ever a new song I tried out that I didn't think was the best thing I'd done. Retrospect most often gave me the view I needed to hear it and make the call myself.

I did have a teacher in high school who told me I was wasting my time writing songs and singing and playing guitar. Another teacher told me to go to NYC and find out. I was never famous, and I never will be, but I managed to get four record deals over the years, and I hope to have another one on the go within a year. So, I'm glad I listened to teacher two.

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24 Mar 04 - 07:12 PM (#1145284)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

A lot of points to respond to here. Unless someone is so atrocious that there is absolutely nothing I can think of to say to them that would encourage them, I point out something I think that they can build on, with a suggestion of how they might approach it differently.
And of course, Martin, you are assuming that your evaluation is Truth personified. That's a real dangerous approach to take, because some of the best musicians and artists who are now considered great were considered crap by some people. It's safer not to confuse personal opinion with absolute fact.

I had someone send me a long tape of many songs that they had written.. someone who admired my songwriting. It took me awhile to listen to the songs (which were very weak) to find some lines or approaches that I felt were good. This was someone who was in my aduience and sent me the cassette. I never met the person, or heard from them again, so I have no idea whether my encouragement and suggestions had any positive effect. In a way, that's not even the point. If I had just said, "your songs suck" I don't think that I would have accomplished anything positive. The person seemed modest and sincere in their efforts.

to Guest: I don't think anyone (other than a sadist) would actually encourage bad writting. There's a surplus of the stuff already.

Jerry

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24 Mar 04 - 07:40 PM (#1145307)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

I never applaude anything that I don't like. To do so is hypocracy

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24 Mar 04 - 07:46 PM (#1145313)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace

Sufferin' Jesus.

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24 Mar 04 - 08:48 PM (#1145359)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Jerry,yes my evaluation is truth personified as I see it. Your way though does have merit to some degree. There is always someone who likes total crap. There are plenty of so called artists who are totally worthless.

Did you ever consider saying something sucks to NOT accomplish anything positive, but just to be brutally honest? Does life by you always have to be blowing sunshine up someone's rear? Have you ever called a spade a spade? Lip Service and bullshit encourage more lip service and bullshit.

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24 Mar 04 - 08:59 PM (#1145375)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Little Hawk

Y'know, Martin, I just realized that your chosen handle is a combination of the 2 most famous makes of acoustic guitar. Cosmic.... I can hardly believe I never noticed that before.

- LH

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24 Mar 04 - 09:05 PM (#1145378)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Little Hawk, you are so right. My two main axes are a vintage D-18 and J45.

It is not only totally cosmic, but it also groovy, far out, and totally tits.

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24 Mar 04 - 09:27 PM (#1145398)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Mudlark

Since I'm not a professional musician I'm not called upon to give an opinion in this realm, but I am, in a small way, a professional writer, and for many years in the real world was an tech. editor. Now my editing skills and criticism are sought out, and sometimes it is a very tricky business, when dealing with mediocrity, to not demolish possible buried talent. I do think it is important to call a spade a spade albeit as tactfully and kindly as possible. For one thing, if the writer (of anything) is sincere than only sincere honesty really counts as criticism. Otherwise, it's just your mum saying, "Oh darling, I love anything YOU do."

I work hard to give balanced criticism, to find good where there is any, but there are times when I'm reminded of Thurber's admonition that whereas a a tiny acorn may grow into a mighty oak, it is also true that a tiny mediocre acorn may grow into an oak of towering mediocrity. A whiny voice, poor instrumental accompaniment, and self-serving lyrics mean either the performer has an overblown sense of self-confidence, or is unaware of the low value of his/her offering. It seems to me if your criticism is to have real value it's important to help promote a healthy ego, while weeding out egotistm.

I got into folk music during the beatnik era, and along with many talented amateurs, there was a raft of black turtleneck sweatered "folk singers." who showed no musical promise and worse yet no emotional honesty. I didn't like them then and I don't like them now.

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24 Mar 04 - 09:41 PM (#1145410)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

I don't have a problem being honestly critical. Yelling "you suck!" from the audience while someone is performing isn't my style. To each his own.

Jerry

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25 Mar 04 - 12:34 AM (#1145496)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: LadyJean

Have you ever been to a Science Fiction convention and gone to the filking.
Filking began as a fun group activity. The songs were simple. We all knew the words. If we didn't, there was always a filk song book.
But NOW! There is a collection of filk stars who are convinced that they're Judy Collins, Joan Baez, Simon and or Garfunkle. You do NOT join in the chorus. It can not, really, be said to be fun. I wouldn't be rude to these egotists. But I'd give a lot to sit in a room and sing along to "Real Old Time Religion" or "The World Con".
I might mention that one filker translated the infamous Greek Sailor Song into classical Greek, so he could sing it in mixed company. Nobody cared much to sing along, but we all enjoyed it.

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25 Mar 04 - 09:03 AM (#1145725)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

You've made a really good point, LadyJean. Songwriters (and most singers who are doing traditional material) when they start out, don't do songs with choruses. I'm not sure why that's the case. For songwriters, I guess it's because they feel that they have something unique to say and aren't thinking that others might want to join in.
When I first started singing traditional music, most of my repertoire was learned from sources like the Anthology Of American Folk Music. Most of the recordings were by solo performers or duets, and many of the songs didn't have choruses.

When I think back to first performing at the Gaslight Cafe in Greenwich Village in the early sixties, the audiences didn't sing along, even on good chorus songs. Folk music back then was definitely a spectator sport. That seems strange to me now, because you think of all the popular recordings of songs like Tom Dooley, Michael Row The Boat Ashore, Sloop John B... many of them had great choruses. Maybe it was different in other parts of the country and in England, but New York City coffee houses were places where you listened, for the most part. I have musician friends who are of the same vintage as me, who still don't encourage singing along on choruses.

One of the first songs I ever wrote and performed acknowledged that pull between introspective songs and choruses. I wrote very few introspective songs, but one was about the collapse of my first marriage. I played the introspection off with a good sing-along chorus:

"What do you when the good times are gone
Sit by the window and wait for the dawn
And you can't remember how things went so wrong anymore
What does it matter how hard you tried
Or how many times you kept it inside
There's no more to say, and nothing to hide anymore

CHORUS: Nobody wants to hear a sad song
         We've all got troubles of our own
         Of our own"

Jerry

---

25 Mar 04 - 10:11 AM (#1145773)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop

I think Jerry's original point is a good one. The fact is, there are plenty of people in this world who will tell you that you suck, either directly or by inference. As a father of three, I have learned that guidance doesn't work unless it is paired with encouragement. And, quite honestly, my personal preferences are not the last word on what is quality. Negativity is easy, as is snobbery, but neither really makes the world a better place.

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25 Mar 04 - 10:54 AM (#1145808)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Steve Parkes

When I was young, we didn't have mics! If you wanted to be heard, you made sure you sang loud enough.

Back in the 60s, a few years before I made my first public appearance, I wrote a few songs. I never performed any of them -- they didn't appeal to me! I only do good stuff now ...

(It occurred to me that the only thing likely to happen if you walked down a lonesome railroad track in England was (a) you'd be run over by a train (less likely) or (b) you'd be told to bugger off buy a gang of Dr Beechings workmen taking up the tracks for scrap (more likely). Today, you're likey to get hit by a train if you stand on the platform, but unlikley to see any workmen ... there's a song in that, if anyone wants it!)

It didn't take me long to find that people let you know if they don't like your performance, however polite they are about it. No problem: I'm happy to sing songs we both like. I've never loaded sixteen tons (what d'you get? Filthy!), and I've never lost my maidenhead to a ploughboy (indeed, I've never heard one sing), but I don't think that precludes me singing about those things. On the other hand, I do have personal worries from time to time, like everyone else; but I don't feel inclined to share my private feelings with everyone else. Do what is comfortable, and take note of how comfortable your audience is. And don't mumble into your armpit!

Steve

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25 Mar 04 - 11:01 AM (#1145815)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace

MartinGibson: You're a mensch. We all know it. Be nice. Bruce M

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25 Mar 04 - 11:09 AM (#1145822)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Mudlark:

I think you really got it said, girl!!

Love ya,

A

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25 Mar 04 - 11:28 AM (#1145846)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Brucie

There is always a time to be nice. There is also times I have found that you can't. Sometimes being bluntly honest with feelings doesn't always come across as "nice."

I never subscribed to the philosophy that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it. Better to put your cards on the table. I'm open and honest with everybody.

---

25 Mar 04 - 11:51 AM (#1145871)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace

I agree. Our methods differ. I still perceive you to be a good guy with rough edges. You would see me as being too soft, I suspect. But, it's about method. I came outta slums and a tough district. I don't know that Chicago differs substantially from Montreal or New York. Don't care how you slice it, I see you as a 'tough' guy with a soft heart. Don't f#ck with me on this diagnosis boychik. In real life, we'd probably get along real well. Later.

Brucie

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25 Mar 04 - 12:16 PM (#1145908)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Unless you have specifically asked to comment, the best thing to do when you don't like something often is to hold your tongue, and refrain from clapping.

I suspect some of the differences expressed here are related to the way that we are thinking about different situations. A concert performance is different from an open mike, which is different from a song circlke, which is different from a session, which is different from a floor spot in a folk cub.

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25 Mar 04 - 12:35 PM (#1145929)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Ok, Martin. This self-serving dramatization about categorically excoriating those who "suck" should be outgrown.

Let's take the case of a newbie who finally finds enough courage to stand up and sing a song he wrote himself, say, about, oh, I dunno -- a love experience, or a religous experience. And he built four chords into this song, no, let's say he was really ingenious and used a relative minor AND its seventh so there are FIVE chords in the song.

But he is nervous as hell, he has never stood before an audience before. His songs are emotionally shallow, and his scansion leaves something to be desired, requiring that he triple-spread one syllable in order to balance a line in a couple of places. His palms are sweating and his fingers slip and they aren't that strong int he first place, so his barred F sounds shitty and in his panic he forgets the intermediate mionor chord in a couple of places.

So let's look at the pluses and minuses of this individuals situation:

PLUS items:

1. He spent his time learning to play
2. He wrote a song
3. He got up in front of an audience without wetting himself
4. He got all the way through the song
5. The song has a couple of original lines or images in it, say.
6. He actually used more than three chords in one song, not badly

MINUS Items:

1. Scansion needs improivement
2. Emotional depth could stand a review
3. Practice the barred F
4. Overcome stage fright.
5. Practice the song so it comes out right even in your sleep.

OK, enough. Your mindset appears to be such that instead of articulating thos epluses and minuses, you think the right thing to do -- even though it is perhaps the most crushing thing to do -- is simply say "You suck, son".

The reason is t5hat you are too self-centered and too lazy to try and separate the pluses out from the minuses and mention them? Or provide specifics so he can address the minuses? "You suck" is a complete generalization, and therefore it is in fact a lie. But you would prefer it -- because of its much more popwerfully invalidative emoptional impact, perhaps -- to the trouble of sorting out the truth?

No-one would mind being told he needs to practice the F chord, or that scansion needs work. No-one, being told "You suck", is likely to even bother picking up their capo on the way out. Your simple and arrogant choice of words could easily be enough to take all the music out of someone's life for twenty or thirty years. Good effect, huh?

Ya know what? Maybe you're the one that sucks. Your choice of tough-minded honesty is a false veneer in the example above, becvause you can't take the trouble to make clear specific statements, so you have to batter someone with blunt falsehoods like "You suck." An opinion without facts offered in support. I can't think of an unkinder way to comment on someone's performance. Do you get off on being discouraging to others? OR are you just trying to get even with your father?

A

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25 Mar 04 - 01:44 PM (#1146000)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Hey, Amos:

I don't know who said this originally, but I've always thought it was very wise:

   "Love without honesty is sentimentality
    Honesty without love is cruelty"

Jerry

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25 Mar 04 - 02:02 PM (#1146013)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Well, I apologize for being blunt, and perhaps even cruel... but the idea of telling some struggling newbie that he sucks raises my ire. It was only one lifetime ago that I was a young punk with a second hand nylon-string guitar trying to sing "Beautiful Brown Eyes" in front of sophisticated strangers visiting my parents. They could have told me I sucked, but they were civilized people who found something constructive to say instead. I am grateful to them.

A

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25 Mar 04 - 02:43 PM (#1146050)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: alanabit

I am going to go along with Brucie and Amos on this one. I was - maybe still am to some degree - guilty of all the faults which Jerry listed in his original posting. However, I like to think that any musician can improve. I also think that nothing is less likely to bring that about than a cruel attack on their confidence.
As an English teacher, I am very careful to make every student believe that they can speak English. That's half the battle. If they think they can, they do. Then I can move on to say, "I can help you to do this better."
I never had the privelege of meeting him, but I gather this was very much the basis of Rick Fielding's attitude to teaching. That's the sort of teacher I want to be.

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25 Mar 04 - 02:55 PM (#1146066)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace

Hey, MartinGibson,

Do you realize we have never had a knock-down drag-out argument? There must be something about you I really relate to. I was thinking: in real life we'd be good friends. Be good, buddy.

Bruce Murdoch

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25 Mar 04 - 02:56 PM (#1146068)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Amos

Comments on your post:

Regarding the plusses:

Big fucking deal.

Regarding the minus items:

You're right, pal.

OK, " You suck" is a complete generalization. "You suck squirrel farts" is not.

No Amos, you suck. You suck because you say I suck. i don't hide behind anything except this made up forum name. No where have I ever said in any post that I would be the guy who yells out "you suck." I might think it and mutter it under my breath but I have never said that I would do it. So, please bite me. And I know that I don't suck because my phone rings constantly for my participation in music.

How do you know someone wouldn't mind being told to go practice an F chord unless you were the actual teacher. From what I've heard, yours could use a little practice, also.

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25 Mar 04 - 02:58 PM (#1146073)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Brucie

I agree with you. I think we would also. You are quite right.


Jerry, go sniff a flower and romp in a meadow or something.

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25 Mar 04 - 03:06 PM (#1146082)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Art Thieme

The best things about the hoots in Chicago in the early 60s--seven nights a week---each night in a different club---- was that it "gave us a gym in which to work out". That translates to "a place to be bad"---a place where we weren't going to be judged---a place to get better. Pretty much we were all singing traditional songs we had found and very few that we might've written from our limited experience.

I remember the time I first heard the term singer/songwriter. It was an Electra Records LP album called The Singer-Songwriter Project (or something like that). They sounded forced but a few were nice. I think I learned one of them.

Good things will come from these people you heard, Jerry. Just not yet. And then they'll ask, "Was I ever that young??"

Art Thieme

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25 Mar 04 - 03:14 PM (#1146085)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Martin:

OK -- so you weren't serious about your assertion that you should tell people "you suck".

Boy, it sure sounded that way to me, but if I read you the wrong way, I apologize -- you invest so much energy in sounding antisocial it's easy to fall into the belief that you actually are.

As for biting you, mark the spot, pal.

A

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25 Mar 04 - 03:49 PM (#1146102)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

And, Martin, my F chord always needs practice. You got that part right, at least.

A

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25 Mar 04 - 03:58 PM (#1146111)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Art Theime

Do remember the hoots years ago in Oak Park at a place known as the Mills House?

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25 Mar 04 - 04:39 PM (#1146144)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Little Hawk

I am envisioning getting Martin Gibson, Clinton Hammond, and Brendy together as a trio so we can find out who is the most kickass, independent-minded, totally honest bastard of the lot. Talk about a hot show! If I was Albert Grossman reborn, I'd get right on it.

And we'd plant someone in the audience to yell, "YOU SUCK!!!" after every song... :-)

- LH

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25 Mar 04 - 05:15 PM (#1146176)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

I call upright bass.

Bass holds it all together. It is the glue.

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25 Mar 04 - 05:26 PM (#1146183)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Blackcatter

Over the past 10 years we've modified to format of the open-mike I co-run. We started out being totally flexible, no stated limit ot lenths or number of songs. We treated everyone as they were wonderful, considerate people. We have no closing time - we could go for hours and hours if people wanted. A few years down the road, we had to change the format to limiting people to 3 songs. A few people wanted to go on and on - espically one struggling blues harpist. Between his 5 minute intros and the fact that he needed to sing every verse ever written, he filled 30 minutes and frankly bored us each time. A couple years later we had to switch to limiting performers to 15 minutes - because of one duo who did 12 minute songs. Every song about 12-step recovery or how wonderful their spiritual path with Unity church was.

I really think we've lost something because we had to do "punish" everyone in order to stop the abuse.

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25 Mar 04 - 06:04 PM (#1146201)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Little Hawk

Yeah. It's the same thing that happens in life generally. A few bad apples make things difficult for everyone. Accordingly, we have laws, restrictions, and rules.

- LH

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25 Mar 04 - 06:34 PM (#1146224)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

I ran across a new trick where performers are limitd to two songs. A duo got up and said, "For our first song we're doing a medley... of about five songs, which they did completely.." This year, when we sang there, the instructions were specific. No medleys!

Some folks never want to get off the stage

Jerry

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25 Mar 04 - 07:08 PM (#1146244)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: ranger1

Okay, what I have learned from this thread:
When and if I ever get the guts to either write a song or perform anything...
I will not do it for Martin Gibson or Kendall and will seriously think and rethink ever doing it at all. Thanks guys, you sure know how to encourage a newbee.

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25 Mar 04 - 07:11 PM (#1146247)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Nothing good about using more chords than you need. In fact I think it's best to use as few as you can.

If you need lots of chords in a song, use them. I've got one where I use, I think, 54 chords (some of them are inversions, all right), and that's for a particular reason. But most of the time three are fine, and sometimes less than that.

I can't see why anyone would wish to come across on the Cat as a bigger bastard than they probably really are in real life. As always the question arises, which is the real you, the one the world sees, or the one we see...

But as I said, I think a lot of this is we're thinking in terms of different types of settings, where different ways of reacting to a singer are maybe appropriate. People who are overconfident invite a more robust type of criticism than those who are underconfident. "That was pretty bad" (ie "that sucked") might be an appropriate thing to say to someone who you knew had it in them to do a lot better, and who knew that themselves. Basically, mostly it'd only be the right thing to say as a kind of backhanded compliment.

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25 Mar 04 - 07:19 PM (#1146257)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Ranger1:

The one thing that you can do that would REALLY suck is not earn the credit for trying, which even Martin Gibson would give you and said so upthread. If you want music in your life pal, stand up and belt it out.

You will NEVER regret doing so.

A

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25 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM (#1146275)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Martin:

I was gonna PM you but it seems your handle is always as Guest, so I cannot, but I want to say this anyway. I looked back over your posts, and while you certainly implied you thought yelling "You suck" was a good idea, you didn't say so, and you never said you would be the one to do so. So I cooled off considerable and realize I jumped off the handle again. Not the first time I have done so. Sorry for losing my temper.

And BTW, I was not referring to your musical ability. Just a perceived lack of sicial grace.

Regardless, if you have a choice, demoralizing another person is never a really good option. So maybe I should practice what I preach more.

A

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25 Mar 04 - 09:34 PM (#1146331)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher

Decades ago I was visiting London and decided to visit Cecil Sharpe House, and found there was a song session being held, so I stayed and asked the organisers if I might sing - I had been singing in public for a few years and was perfectly confident about standing up on stage alone.

Eventually I was called on, and began to sing - only to have the two organisers start to howl out a slightly different version of the song.

I was living in Southsea, Hants at the time and was used to rowdyness, a group of us sang in pubs and we did the Horseshoe at the end of Elm Grove even on Navy pay day Thursdays.

I sang the song through, and the audience were singing with me by the time I finished, refused a second song stepped down from the stage and walked out, cursing mightily.

I am sure my singing was as good as it usually was/is - I check up occasionally by recording myself.

It was just after that incident that the EFDSS began to encounter all sorts of trouble, and I did sometimes wonder - my mother's mother was part gypsey - don't know which bit exactly - and she always said she could curse people. Maybe I inherited.

I did find it demoralising and I have never had the same confidence ever since. I never had stage fright before, from that night I have had the shakes every time I even think of performing.

It seems silly after thirty odd years, but it really upset me and destroyed my confidence.

Anne Croucher

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25 Mar 04 - 09:46 PM (#1146336)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Blackcatter

Hey Ranger1,

It's just that there are a few that abuse the open-mike scene. Typically they're full of themselves, whether it's egotism or some buring message they feel they must share.

99% of open-mikers are wonderful in their own way.

To anyone who's never performed at an open-mike, remember that all OMs aren't the same. There are ones that are truly open and accepting with wonderful hosts who will treat the so-so performer with the same level of respect as the professional performer who's there to try out new material or "give back" to the scene he or she learned so much from.

You need to find the right OM. In small towns that may be difficult, but check them all out and if you don't find any to your liking - hell, start one yourself. Go to your favorite bar, pub, coffee-house, etc. and ask them if they would be willing to let you do it. Find someone with basic sound-equipment to help out and start putting out flyers. That way you know that at least one OM is exactly the way you like it to be.

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25 Mar 04 - 10:21 PM (#1146352)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Art Thieme

Martin, No, I don't recall that one.====Art

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25 Mar 04 - 10:27 PM (#1146358)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Don't get discouraged, Ranger. Most folks are encouraging. I don't imagine that Van Gogh's first paintings were masterpieces. I hear that Beethoven started out writing radio commercials.

Go for it.

Jerry

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26 Mar 04 - 04:46 AM (#1146481)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Steve Parkes

That's more than he heard, Jerry!

My first song in public taught me one or two valuable lessons. Always practice at the volume you intend to perform at; I found I had to transpose Draft-dodger Rag from C to G on the spot, after a false start. If you have to restart, or you forget the words, or you foul up, make a joke of it -- "it's okay, they think it's part of the act!". If you fall off the tighrope, get straight back on again. Don't do circus acts in a folk club.

I still start in the wrong key, and forget the words, and they still laugh when I say it's part of the act; but I don't do it often these days.

Steve

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26 Mar 04 - 05:59 AM (#1146524)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Ellenpoly

"Call me a snob, but I still can't abide teenage philosophers wailing out their diary entries as if they had lived."

I can't help but think about Janis Ian, who started composing when she was in her early teens. Even though she was young, her mastery of poetry and music was formidable. I'd hate to think that there might have been someone in her life who wasn't ready to encourage her simply because they had decided that a kid her age could have nothing worth saying.

Yes, it's a cruel world, especially for performers who put their egos on the line every time they stand in front of an audience. Not all are going to make it, and most will drop by the wayside soon enough. There will be a few who will suck badly, and will never get that, unless they hear it loudly from an audience member, and then, if their skin is thick enough, it still won't stop them because their need to perform is greater than their acceptance of other people's annoyance at their efforts.

People need encouragement, all people. It's a fine line in knowing when the best encouragement would be well thought-out and delivered critisism. I have never booed someone, but I have certainly refrained from applauding. It's the only thing I feel I can do, unless they specifically ask my opinion...that, or walking out of the place altogether.

Keeping a high level of tolerance is harder with age, because we have had the time to experience and judge what we deem worthy through much trial and error of our own, and our abilities to settle for less, even for the minutes it takes to sit through someone's excrutiating rendition of a well-loved song may be just too much to bear. But I'd rather keep schtum and understand that all people crave to be good at something, and a lot never will. My sympathy for them outweighs (most of the time) my need to get in their face and deflate their dreams even more.

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26 Mar 04 - 08:01 AM (#1146587)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Hey, Ellenpoly:

If we dismiss songwriters because they haven't lived enough we never would have had Bob Dylan's endless wealth of music. Same with Buddy Holly and countless other people who are recognized as great. In most music, it seems like the most creative years are for people in their twenties and thirties. Even in traditional folk music, it's easy to forget that some of the great music and recordings we love were made by very young musicians. I don't know how old Clarence Ashley was when he recorded The Cuckoo, or Mississippi John Hurt when he did his first recordings, but they were young men. And, they must have been performing long before they were first recorded.

Jerry

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26 Mar 04 - 08:15 AM (#1146600)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Ellenpoly

I completely agree with you, Jerry. Did you not understand that my first sentence was a quote that was written by another catter?

The rest was my response to him, and if you read again, you'll see that I believe there is no such thing as too young to be talented, as both you and I gave instances of...xx..e

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26 Mar 04 - 08:27 AM (#1146605)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Steve Parkes

If you've seen the threads on autism/Asperger's, you'll know that autism is characterised by an inability to understand what's in other people's minds. The rest of us have this pretty remarkable ability for empathy; to understand and share the feelings and emotions of another, even though we haven't ourselves experienced what they've been through. This is what makes it possible for someone to write a song or tell a story about feelings we can echo in our own minds, whether the singer/storyteller or we have been in the situation in the song/story. (Sorry -- long sentences! I think they make sense?) We may not have sat on the banks of Moon River and wished we could escape to the other side and start living, and nor might Andy Williams, Audrey Hepburn, Henry Mancini or Johnny Mercer; but we all know what it would feel like: that's why it's so popular.

These adolescent angstniks may not have first-hand experience of the nasty things life can throw at us, but they are certainly aware of them, and they can certainly write about them. Anyway, it's one of the charcteristics of teenager-ness that you know everything: they'll grow up and grow out of it.

Steve

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26 Mar 04 - 08:51 AM (#1146621)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: dwditty

I am familiar with the venue Jerry speaks of in his opening remarks. It is not unlike lots of other coffeehouses, except for the fact that they ask that people do not talk during the performances (there is a room full of old comfy couches upstairs where people who want to visit can sit). While it is true there are lots of young people spewing there (I heard a young man there who could not have been more that 14-15 singing in no uncertain terms about unrequited love), the players run the gamut from week to week with some even travelling from Boston or New York to play their 2 songs. A few weeks ago and 11 year old girl played guitar and sang two songs she had written, and she brought the house down. I have found that regardless of the level of performance, the reaction is one of nuturing and/or appreciation. I have always thought the responsibility of connecting with the music lies as much with the listener as with the performer. While I may not care much for some of the music that is played, be it of the belly-achin' variety, or rap, or hip-hop, etc., if I look around the room there is almost always somebody who is diggin' it. One of the beauties of this particular venue is the 2 song limit. The suffering is short.

dw

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26 Mar 04 - 09:34 AM (#1146655)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

Look folks, I'm talking about those three chord wonders who sing about their love life and other trivial crap. I've know a lot of very young musicians, Gordon Bok, 21 Dave Mallett, 28, these people had something to say that was worth saying even though they were young at the time. I do encourage potential, but never encourage what strikes me as self indulgent tripe.I've been in the music loop for more years than many of you have been alive, and I've seen too many cases where kids are pushed to perform on stage way before they are ready, and that's when they stop growing. Arrested development.
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself. And, my opinion is as good as yours.

---

26 Mar 04 - 10:07 AM (#1146683)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Wilfried Schaum

Some years we alumni met with the fraternity, and one of us, above 50, started his speech with: "Now we sit here again and ask ourselves: Oh my God, have we ever been like these, and they sit here and ask themselves: Oh my God, shall we ever be like these?"
Naturally, he was right, and Jerry's question remembers me of this scene. We were young and daring once and had let nobody stop us at first, but when the shit hit the fan there always were some gentle older people who tried to straighten out the mess; they must have remembered that they were young sometimes, too. Thanks, old fellows, gone long ago.
In my youth I wrote a lot of poems and thought them well written. When 40 years of age, I read them again, put them ALL into an empty baby food can, lighted them and labeled the can "My Early Poems". My heirs will be astonished when they open it.
But I never want to miss those times. I tried, and tried hard; wouldn't I have started I'd never be what I am now.
So when I see and hear these young people annoying me I always ask myself: "Oh my God, have I ever been like these?" Unfortunately yes. But there is big consolation: They shall be like us in the end. Fortunately[?]

---

26 Mar 04 - 10:58 AM (#1146727)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Hi, Ellenpoly: Sorry I wasn't clear in my posting. I recognized the opening statement as Kendall's, not yours. You and I are completely in agreement, and I appreciated your post.

Funny thing about life experience. It doesn't begin at thirty. It wasn't that long ago that I tried to help my sons go through the rapids of their teenage and early twenties years, and if that isn't a life experience, I don't know what is. The fact that people are confused at that age and are trying to make sense out of new emotions doesn't in any way minimize the validity of their experiences. Love IS confusing. Sometimes even for geezers. Having been a teenager in the 50's, the future and the problems it held were far less threatening than they are now. At least the exterior of life was a lot more comprehendable. Did I want a vanilla coke, or a cherry coke, and who was better, Perry Como or Pat Boone? You saw life as getting out of high school or college, getting a job, finding the right girl for you, marrying and having kids, driving a big new car, owning a home and when you got old, you could rely on social security and a pension to make retirement something to look forward to. Those days are gone for kids today. I know that if I was a teenager in times like these, I would have been completely overwhelmed. And for teenagers, and kids in their twenties, music has always been an important part of trying to make sense out of their lives. I don't have the same concerns as teenagers, and some of the confusion is thankfully, dimly remembered.

What I want to know is why teenagers don't write songs that really are about life experiences. Why aren't they singing songs about important issues like what will happen when medicare runs out and the cost of prescription drugs. I don't hear any songs about how my back aches when I get up in the morning. Or even about how to make my lawn look good. Life is a cycle, and most of us are in the spin dry setting, now.

Jerry.. rapidly approaching geezerdom

---

26 Mar 04 - 11:02 AM (#1146731)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Damon

Ranger1, martin gibson is so far up his own arse he ain't seen the light of day for a long time...if you don't believe me have a look at some of his postings. He's a very unpleasant character who hangs around insulting people, and doesn't even have the balls to use his own name, so just ignore him and,like a bad smell, he may go away.

PLEASE don't let the likes of him put you off singing or playing!

"Keeping a high level of tolerance is harder with age"....if this is true,Ellenpoly, I estimate MG to be 753 next birthday.

damon

---

26 Mar 04 - 11:11 AM (#1146743)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

who was better, Perry Como or Pat Boone?

JERRReeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

ELVIS, man!!!! ELVIS has it over Pat Boone and Perry Como both!!


A

---

26 Mar 04 - 12:54 PM (#1146832)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Oh Boo Hoo Damon! Wahhhhhhhhhhh! Your about as clever as this morning's loaf. I forgot what you will never even know about music, Damon, or Demon, or Mailer Daemon or what ever you think you are.


Anyway, how about this:

You suck unless you prove to me otherwise. If you don't suck, I will stand up and cheer for you louder than anyone in the room. But if you really do suck (and I don't care how old you are, what kind of guitar you have, or even what your music is about), I have the right to think so and maybe even tell others I think so, and maybe you, too.

---

26 Mar 04 - 01:12 PM (#1146845)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: dwditty

Brownie McGhee wrote Sportin' Life when he was 15. At least some of the time it pays to listen, eh?

---

26 Mar 04 - 01:13 PM (#1146848)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Midchuck

Why is it bad to suck when so many guys are looking all over for someone who sucks?

Explain, please?

Peter.

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26 Mar 04 - 01:34 PM (#1146873)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace

Yes, Kendall--now we have three-chord wonders with capos. Didn't you ever know just three chords?

---

26 Mar 04 - 01:39 PM (#1146877)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: dwditty

Sheesh, I thought folk songs were almost all 3 chord songs. Blues is practicaly 100%, too. Would hate to be missing all that music based on the 3 chords or less sucks rule.

---

26 Mar 04 - 01:52 PM (#1146885)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Sportin' Life, as blues as it gets, uses 8 if you include the second.

A

---

26 Mar 04 - 02:12 PM (#1146898)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace

Once ya know the keys and the relative minors, life is good and few songs can't be done. Granted, when stuff calls for a D 13 flatted 5 flatted 9, or a few Augs or Dims, things get a little hairy for the beginner, but we were all there once.

---

26 Mar 04 - 02:20 PM (#1146902)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: George Papavgeris

Pheww - I joined this thread late, and had to weave my way through several exchanges on the subject of sucking...But the bottom line seems to be about what level of tolerance you are able to maintain in later life.

I am as intolerant as anybody my age, when I am not careful, though as a matter of personality I have rarely told those who in my opinion suck, that they do so. Because somewhere in all the crap, there are gems. Someone mentioned the young Dylan earlier. And I heard that Stan Rogers wrote one of my all-time favourite songs, "Lies", for his mother when he was 23.

Now, I am sure Stan wrote some crap too, when he was younger. He was a big fella though, so I bet few people told him that he sucks, even if he had deserved it. And how old was McCartney when he wrote "Yesterday"?

For every whining pimply 18-year old pouring out angst there is always a whining wrinkly xx-year old pouring out frustrations.

Writing crap is not the prerogative of the young'uns. I know. I fill buckets meself.

---

26 Mar 04 - 02:29 PM (#1146908)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: George Papavgeris

Chapter 2: So what is it that the young'uns have, that we don't like? Mainly the fact that they can look starry-eyed at the truths we bled to discover; and that they won't listen and learn; and that they think that they have discovered love, sex, the song of the birds and the beauty of sunsets.

So, is perhaps our intolerance rooted in frustration that our experience has not been passed on? And occasionally, surely, a little jealousy too?

Because I, for one, would gladly become a whining pimply teenager again, just for the pure joy of discovering all those things again. And I would pour out my angst in diary entry songs. And not give a gnat's fart about what the old'uns think.

Though a whining wrinkly old'un is what I am, I cannot begrudge them the right to rediscover the world. That's just normal. "Life as usual", as it were...

---

26 Mar 04 - 02:31 PM (#1146911)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: George Papavgeris

Chapter 3:

LIFE AS USUAL

All day you bombard my ears
With how you have three times my years
Lessons you would try to teach
To me, but all you do is preach.
I know you have experience
But stop beating that drum
Just because I'm learning still
It doesn't mean I'm dumb;
My learning days have just begun.

You say black and I say white
And nothing that I do is right
Angrily you slam the door
And my opinions you ignore.
Sure, we have our differences,
But talk to me, don't shout
And if I see things different,
Please don't shut me out;
That's what being young is all about.

Anything I want to do
Is just a waste of time to you.
With my dreams you disagree
You want to plan my life for me.
The road that I will travel
It isn't yours to call
So I will make my own mistakes,
I'll stumble and I'll fall;
Just life as usual, that's all

You despise all my friends
You say they'll meet a sorry end.
You dread what will become of me
But learn to put your trust in me.
There's still one thing you have to learn
And that is letting go
The more you pull, the more I'll push
Don't make the distance grow;
I love you, but won't let it show

You say I'm your prince and heir
But even princes need their air.
So don't wait half the night for me
And with your love don't smother me.
Don't despair and pull your hair
And stop giving me flak.
Just be there when I need you
When I go off the track;
One day I promise I'll be back

(c)Copyright 2003 George Papavgeris

---

26 Mar 04 - 02:31 PM (#1146912)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Damon

Oh Boo Hoo Damon! Wahhhhhhhhhhh! Your about as clever as this morning's loaf.    Such a predictable response Martin

I forgot what you will never even know about music, Damon, or Demon, or Mailer Daemon or what ever you think you are. So what??

As for the rest of it, I agree with you that you have the right to say what you like to whom you like, but whether it is right to do so is probably where we disagree.

Ranger1's post surely tells you how your approach to criticism is just destructive, so why bother?

---

26 Mar 04 - 02:38 PM (#1146916)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Shlio

Martin Gibson, I respect your right to have your own point of view, but I also claim my right to tell you that I think it is stupid.

I've written poetry, and I know that most of it (especially the mercifully few angst-ridden ones) sucks. Which I was told. Because of this, I stopped writing.

It took a very understanding, more experienced person to look at it, with out giving up at the first sign of crap, to find what was good in it. She didn't tell me it sucked - though she could have. Instead she helped me to improve, and gave me the confidence to start writing again.

If someone is brave enough to present a creative piece, that they have worked hard on, to you, I think you have a responsibility to help that person improve, especially if it sucks.

(And don't attack me for using poetry rather than music, please...I'm just using a real experience)

---

26 Mar 04 - 03:09 PM (#1146938)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Shlio, I absolutely will not attack you because your response measured zero on my bullshit meter.

And it is the approach or lack of approach as to if you really do or do not have the responsibility.

I myself do participate in bluegrass jams where players of different caliber show up. What always happens is the accomplished players end up in one room, the novices in another and everyone else somewhere else. The players do move freely from grouping to grouping and the novices are encouraged to watch and listen and learn from the more accomplished. sometimes a novice will ask a question, others will not. Some will try to chord along quitely, others haven't a clue that they are screwing up the song.

You know what I think is my final conclusion to it all? It all boils down to attitude. Aspirations with no talent or potential don't have to be told "you suck." Maybe "don't quit your day job." gets the point across just as well.

Personally, if I'm asked I might give a pointer or two, but if not I do not feel the responsibility to give one the time of day.

---

26 Mar 04 - 05:23 PM (#1147032)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Wrote a song a few years back that started with the lines:

"You know you're getting old when you start to say
I wonder what's the matter with kids today?

Jerry

---

26 Mar 04 - 05:33 PM (#1147037)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peace

I got a hot flash. The kids today are little different than any of us used to be. Same insecurities, same worries, same views of self and others, same angst and same desires. Same chords, too.

---

26 Mar 04 - 05:37 PM (#1147040)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Yeah... and why be so demeaning of people who use three chords in most of their songs? Demean me too, then. And most traditional singers.

Jerry

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26 Mar 04 - 05:54 PM (#1147048)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: freda underhill

demeaner you are, demore you demean..

---

26 Mar 04 - 05:59 PM (#1147053)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Demeaning is in da actions, not in da woids...


A

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26 Mar 04 - 07:04 PM (#1147096)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

U is delightful, freda!

Jerry

---

26 Mar 04 - 07:30 PM (#1147113)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Richard Bridge

Martin Gibson.

If you are prepared to be judged, who really are you, and why do you think you are so good?

I use my real name. I know my limitations. Dave Bryant uses his real name. Eliza Carthy uses hers. Are you chicken or what? Are you prepared to be judged? You say you are Jewish. Will you scream racism if someone makes that a point of criticism?

I have never heard Martin Carthy or Ian Bruce say to someone that they suck. Likewise a singer I know who, as a non-folk player had a No 7 hit. I remember very well Martin saying of a song that Jacqui and I had sung "That was a good song. Is it one of yours?" It was, and I don't like it much any more.


When you pass such thresholds we may value you as much as Cowell. Until then, you are beneath contempt.

Oh, and incidentally, you are so proud of your two guitars. When will you learn to judge something other than historical reputation?

---

26 Mar 04 - 08:46 PM (#1147186)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

I wish you folks would stop mis understanding me. You know damn well what I'm saying. Of course there was a time when I only knew three chords, but damn it, I didn't stay in the dark ages.
Of course there are many songs that only need three chords, but Lorena isn't one of them.

I liken the person who writes doggerel about his kids to people who drag out yards of pictures of their grand children. BORING.

---

26 Mar 04 - 08:47 PM (#1147188)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

In other words, get a life THEN write about it.

---

26 Mar 04 - 10:02 PM (#1147233)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Not sure what you mean by getting a life, Kendal. How do you know when you have one? Or can someone else tell you, if you don't know?

Jerry

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26 Mar 04 - 10:03 PM (#1147235)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Art Thieme

I will always know that it was a real luxury for us in the 60s to have a place with a stage where we could do the music several nights a week and get better at it as a result of that dynamic tension. They even gave us a burger abd chips and a couple of beers----almost like we were getting paid for our music. I liked that, got used to it and kept on keeping on. As I've said, it was a bit like alchemy; we sang into the wind---and went home with the rent.

Art Thieme

---

26 Mar 04 - 10:13 PM (#1147237)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Hey, Amos:

When I mentioned Pat Boone and Perry Como, I intentionally chose safe singers that even Mom and Dad liked. I liked Elvis alot, but was more partial to Gene Vincent and Eddie Cochran, understanding that they weren't as good. Vincent and Cochran seemed to stay dangerous after they became popular. Maybe they would have worn sequined white jump suits and played Vegas later in life, but I kinda doubt it.

Jerry

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26 Mar 04 - 11:48 PM (#1147277)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

I think Kendall is putting his finger on an important point that has been the bane of poetic types since time immemorial: viz, the intensity of personal experience vice the breadth of common experience. The great poet finds the intersection of these things deftly with vivid accuracy -- e.g., Frost and the Path Not Taken, Eliot and the Love Song of... or Thomas and Do Not Go Gentle. Vivid intersection betweent he Moi and the Toujours.

But the art is in making it vibrant and echoing and electrick, Godammit! And, if that does not make sense, blame it on Chianti.

A

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26 Mar 04 - 11:49 PM (#1147279)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: LadyJean

I don't write songs, but I do write. Though, so far, nobody's bought my fiction, except the IRS.
I've collected a number of rejection slips. The kind I hate, as does every other writer I know, are the kind where the editor decided to be clever. He makes some nasty, snide, remarks about the story. One of my friends got a rejection that read "That was a waste of both our time, wasn't it."
She put the word out that this guy was an S.O.B. and he got fewer manuscripts. In fact, the magazine folded, I think because the editor was a jerk.
The rejection letter I like, as much as one CAN like rejections, offers a few encouraging words before discussing what I did wrong, and why they aren't going to publish it.
Young talent needs encouragement, along with a bit of constructive criticism.
Was I ever that young?
When I was 17, and old enough to know better, I swore at the head of the upper school, because I wanted to take a creative writing class with a published writer. (The alternative was a lady we called Auntie Groovy who never even sent her verses to a publisher.) I wanted criticism from somebody who knew about writing.

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26 Mar 04 - 11:55 PM (#1147283)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

LadyJean:

May you continue to cuss roundly whenever conditions warrant.

Blessings,

A

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27 Mar 04 - 12:32 AM (#1147304)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Art Thieme

Mark Twain said,

----There was never a life lived on this planet that was not a failure in the eyes of the one who lived it.

That's a paraphrase but that's the idea of it.

Art

---

27 Mar 04 - 12:56 AM (#1147322)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Art:

I owe you one for that quote...

Thanks, man.


A

---

27 Mar 04 - 05:42 AM (#1147420)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Ellenpoly

"In other words, get a life THEN write about it."

Ah, Kendall, again I think you may be misunderstood here. No doubt you are aware that children are not kept in zip-locked bags to emerge in their twenties clean and innocent and devoid of feelings or the chance of childhood trauma.

Many of people's deepest experiences, the ones that mark them for life, happen in their early years. Of this I speak from my own history.

A life begins to be interesting as soon as we begin to ask the big questions, or have had them forced upon us. There is no age limit for this, and it can begin before inception, if you are one to believe in "before lives". But the point I'm trying to make, is...if someone feels compelled to express themselves, then so be it. Our choice is to listen or not to listen. More than that is taking on an aspect of judgement that unless asked for, is often better left to those who will impart their own expertise with compassion and tolerance...

Of course, this is all IMHO..xx..e

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27 Mar 04 - 08:13 AM (#1147481)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

Some years ago, my wife and I were discussing the attire of this young man, you know the type, he looked like he had dressed inside a Salvation Army collection box in the dark. He had half of his hair shaved off, what was left was different shades of yellow and blue, his face was full of shrapnel and he looked like his IQ was about room temperature. Wife said, "Oh he's just making a statement, ease up."
I said, "Making a statement eh? when Thomas jefferson was not much older than that he wrote the declaration of independence. When Abe Lincoln wanted to make a statement, he wrote the Gettysburg Address; this guy walks on his pant legs." Don't have much to say, does he"?

One of my nephews showed up at a family gathering dressed like that and I said to him "Oh, did the Clampetts have a yard sale"? All I got was a blank stare.

Oh, by the way Jerry, you do have a life.!

---

27 Mar 04 - 10:11 AM (#1147539)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

We wanted to raise ours that way, but in those days the ziplock bags were all too small.


A

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27 Mar 04 - 10:23 AM (#1147545)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Damon

Poor dress sense isn't a crime, nor's a low IQ...and I should know, having never been arrested for either!

I read once that Ghandi, when being told how great a man he was, said that he saw every human being as being a greater person than himself.

I think it's true and always try and remember it when I start getting a bit judgemental about people. You just need a bit of humility to admit it.

---

27 Mar 04 - 10:34 AM (#1147549)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Nice sentiment, Damon -- I dunno about the proposition that "any other is greater than I am", that seems to me a bit disabling; but humility is essential to insight and understanding. The only reason we don't praxctice it here is because it isn't funny! :>)

A

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27 Mar 04 - 10:34 AM (#1147550)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Well put, Damon: When I see someone dressed outlandishly, I figure they want me to see them dressed outlandishly, and they have a reason. It's not that they have a low IQ. They may have a higher IQ than I do. If IQ could be accurately measured by how we dress, they could skip all the tests and just have people submit a photograph to someone who had the gift of measuring IQ by clothing or hair styles.
People who make flamboyant efforts to get attention are hurting (I think.) Whether they dye their hair pink or come in here intentionally insulting everyone in sight. That doesn't make me want to be around them, necessarily, and usually they have shut themselves off so much that it's hard to get beneath that surface... whether it's an insulting attitude or pink hair. There are all sorts of ways to draw attention to yourself, just as there are to make sure that no one can really get close to you.

Jerry

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27 Mar 04 - 11:11 AM (#1147574)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

Here we go again! Is my command of the language so lacking that you can't understand me? I did not say, nor did I imply that people who dress like that are low on the IQ scale. I said THAT particular person LOOKED like his IQ was room temperature.
My grand daughter was inro "Gothic" for a while, her IQ is off the chart. She dresses funny, but she is as articulate as anyone I know. 18 going on 60.

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27 Mar 04 - 11:24 AM (#1147580)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Art Thieme

...and her friends consider her a walking artform.

A JOKE: When I see someone with blue and yellow and red spiked hair walking down the stree I just figure his or her dad enjoyed mating with peahens.

Art

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27 Mar 04 - 11:42 AM (#1147587)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Sandy Mc Lean

I have been trying to sort through this thread. If I dump the crap
there are valid discussion points left.
Open mike's can be a lot of fun. Those who go do so of their own free will. I would suggest that if you don't like the performance or the venue that you do not return. Unless criticism of a performance is constructive with an attempt to help it is best left unspoken. Over the years I have watched many performers who "sucked" on their first attempt
improve to a remarkable degree as they gained confidence and skill. I am sure that someone discouraging them when they are so vulnerable, would be considered an "AH" by most caring people. If the intention was to belittle the performer they only belittle themselves.
Some are by nature, more skilled and gifted than others, but there is nobody who will not improve as they gain confidence. The best way to help is to show some appriciation and encouragement.
As for judging people because they only use 3 chords and a capo to do a song , these were the tools of Woody Guthrie and Hank Williams.
I have heard Woody quoted: " Anyone using more than # chords is just showing off!"
Hank had a great back up band called the Drifting Cowboys. On some recording sessions they wanted Hank to leave his guitar out but in most cases he refused. My favourite songs of his were the demos that were released after he died . Just Hank and the guitar and in most cases three chords with the odd minor or seventh.
                           Sandy

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27 Mar 04 - 11:45 AM (#1147591)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Sandy Mc Lean

3 chords not # chords. :-}

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27 Mar 04 - 12:11 PM (#1147609)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Big Mick

I kind of chuckle when I read some of this stuff. Let me begin by saying I have not read most of this thread, just the last 6 or so posts. Does it strike anyone else as funny that the older posters are forgetting their youth and the younger poster figures that being misunderstood is new ground?

Those born in the time frame of 1930 - 40, do you remember the suit coat, wide legged pants and tee shirt? How about the 50's when rock n' roll was the sign of young 'uns going to hell? And the 60's when we rejected everything about our parents generation, from views on sex, to music, to drugs? And so on. And do you remember how we were supposedly just trying to get attention, according to the older folks that judged us? Of course, we never saw it that way, we were trying "to change the world" from the mess the older ones had made. "In our world, we're going to make it strong, our world...." in the worlds of a song. We felt completely misunderstood by our elders. Then we got older, and what happened? Some of us turned into our parents. Do you remember being judged based on how long your hair was, instead of by your actions, and how angry that made you feel?

Damon, what you are feeling is not new. We went through it, and some of us became our parents. But you are misreading Kendall, as he is one of those who just likes folks that are decent folks. He may be a crusty old fart, but he is a great and accepting crusty old fart.

When I see someone walking down the street with an outlandish look, I see myself at various times in my life. And I remember that I was simply trying to define myself, or make a statement, or just be me. And in my opinion, and it is probably just mine, I came out OK, and am still trying to make a positive difference on this old orb.

So to answer the question posed by thread, yes, I was that young. And, God willing, I still am. If only my body felt it..........

All the best,

Mick

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27 Mar 04 - 02:00 PM (#1147685)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

I remember the 50's with the Duck's ass hair cuts, the leather jacket with studs, the engineers boots. Even as a teen ager I thought them all silly. Through the 60's I was a member of the establishment, I've always hated rock and roll, Elvis to me was a cow eyed geek. A man with an outstanding voice wasting it on tripe.
Never been a lemming, never will.
I say "Hermits Unite"

---

27 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM (#1147805)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Damon

I agree there Kendall, I aspire to hermitage myself!

I'm sure you are, like Mick said, a great crusty old fart(no offence!), but I didn't misunderstand you. I know you weren't saying dress and IQ are intrinsically linked.

If anything, I'm probably just oversensitive to the subject of being judged on appearance, having had a gutfull of it over the years. But I'm sure it's just a natural reaction to anything different in our surroundings... I do it myself sometimes but try not to form a negative opinion.

This progression through life into older age is certainly fascinating. As youth receeds, rather rapidly, into the distance it seems to get harder, for me at least, to recognise who we once were. I don't feel like the same person at all for some reason.

For all the faults of youth I'm still envious of the starry-eyed innocence it has.

damon,    trainee crusty old fart

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27 Mar 04 - 05:49 PM (#1147825)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Well, kendall, I really liked engineer boots, but me mum wouldn't buy them for me!!

A

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27 Mar 04 - 07:43 PM (#1147867)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

And I had a Harley and wore blue suede shoes. Was I cool, or what?

Jerry

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27 Mar 04 - 08:16 PM (#1147887)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

Jerry, I just got a mental picture of you in a Hell's Angels outfit!

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27 Mar 04 - 09:37 PM (#1147920)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Actually Kendall, I was a member of the Heck's Angel.

Jerry

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28 Mar 04 - 12:18 AM (#1147981)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Art Thieme

Jerry said, "Was I cool, or not?"

Friend Jerry, sadly, the answer be "no".

Art

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28 Mar 04 - 12:21 AM (#1147982)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Hmmm?? Darn-it's Angels? :>))

A

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28 Mar 04 - 05:32 AM (#1148085)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Ellenpoly

I'm also sensitive to the idea of someone being judged on how they dress. Perhaps it's because I find my own clothing becoming more and more about comfort and less and less about "fashion", not that I ever followed anyone else's idea of which was which.

When I worked in a book store in DC back in the mid-70s for a short time, I found myself being told by the assistant manager not to talk to any of the customers. When I asked her why not, she very pointedly looked me up and down (I was wearing a flannel shirt and jeans- all quite clean) and said she could "tell I wasn't well-read". This was purely based on my appearance as she and I had never exchanged two words (I was hired by the manager who was duly impressed with my resume which included two degrees, and also noted that I had opened and run my own bookstore with my mother in my late teens).

I was flabberghasted that this other woman had been so quick to judge me and I made a mental note to myself to remember this forever more...xx..e

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28 Mar 04 - 07:10 AM (#1148116)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: freda underhill

when i was young it was bellbottoms, lace, indian embroidered clothes, gypsy headscarves and hand embroidered jeans. Psychadelic face and body paint, black eye makeup and indian jewellery. My boyfriends had long hair, played the guitar and wrote poetry, and my father told me they looked like a bunch of queens living off the streets. one old boyfriend was notorious for once rollerskating around the lake in Canberra, while wearing a tutu and tripping on LSD.

yes, the young people of today are missing something...

I am severely disappointed that my tall, handsome, blue eyed son won't grow his hair long, and have told him he looks like a fascist with his short haircut. My children have grown up to be materialistic yuppies - where did i go wrong?

freda

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28 Mar 04 - 08:18 AM (#1148136)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

When I was growing up, we were very poor. Whoever left the house in the morning first was the best dressed. We wore ragged clothes and long hair, and we were the but of jokes from the kids on the other side of the tracks. We were judged by them because of our appearance, but who were they? Was their opinon of me worth a cane hole in a cow turd?
Now, ragged clothes and long hair is chic. Born too soon, thats all.

I can't help but think that there are still some of you who mistakenly think that I judge people by their appearance. That is just not so. I size people up by talking to them. My remark about the kid with the spiked hair, frumpy clothes, face rings and vacant stare was a one shot deal. HYPERBOLE!! nothing more.

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28 Mar 04 - 11:50 AM (#1148251)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

I believe you Kendall. After all, you didn't judge me..

Jerry

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28 Mar 04 - 12:41 PM (#1148264)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Big Mick

Hell, Captain, that was the point of part of that post. I have never met a more authentic person than you. You are accepting of almost anyone you meet, so long as they are decent folks. I don't believe you make much more than a note of how someone appears. I have seen you, with every manner of person you meet, charm them and usually make them laugh. Just in case anyone misunderstood, the "crusty old fart" comment was nothing more than a term of endearment to a friend that I love dearly. Kendall Morse is more in touch with the feelings of his youth than most young folks I know.

Mick

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28 Mar 04 - 03:26 PM (#1148348)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: harpgirl

I finally read this interesting thread. It reminded me of my first performing. When I first began singing and playing on the mountain dulcimer, David asked me to get up and play with him at an Ark performance of his. I was in my middle twenties and I was then unable to get up and do that and poor David was left playing accompaniment to what he thought was going to be a hot dulcimer tune. Of course, anything he did was superb. So I missed out on a terrific debut duet. It probably would have launched my career as a folk singer!

The next time I actually got on stage was at a coffeehouse in Nortwest Detroit at a performance by my good friend Eric Glatz. I played two songs and the entire first three rows was young autistic children and adolescents from a local institution. I still remember the raucous hand movements the kids made while I played. They were a forgiving audience. I was terrible.

My easiest years of performing were then in Arkansas where I moved to immerse myself in mountain music. Stage fright evaporated under the dogwood trees in the Ozarks. I played everywhere with little self-consciousness. I wonder why. I've never regained that feeling of ease in performing and have done less and less as the years roll by. I think it was because that was what I wanted to do, I was young, and cared less about what people thought than about what I WANTED TO DO.
I wanted to sing old songs.

Nowadays, I feel like I did when I was at that coffeehouse in Detroit. At any rate, I think it is essential that young people get up and do their best. I hail them and even though most of what I hear by singer/songwriters at any age doesn't appeal to me, when the song is universal in theme and it is performed on key that is good enough for me. We all have to find our path in life.

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28 Mar 04 - 08:27 PM (#1148549)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: JennyO

..one old boyfriend was notorious for once rollerskating around the lake in Canberra, while wearing a tutu...

I didn't know you used to date Bill Arnett, Freda :-)

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28 Mar 04 - 10:08 PM (#1148604)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: beetle cat

In my short lifetime, Ive never seen another teenager in the folk circle, and I can't help but wonder why. Im 17 now, and I won't take offence to any of the cruel comments you old farts have made about kids my age, because maybe some of them are true.
I sing songs about events that I havn't been through (death of the spouse, termoil and hard labor, the life of a sailor..). We have all sung the national anthem, but how many of us were there when it was written? Maybe I'll understand what I sing someday, maybe not. But I'll be prepaired.
One thing that I noticed is that I very seldom get and criticism, and it's not because I'm any good. I appreciate some constructive criticism every once in a while, because it means that someone is listening, and that they take me seriously enough to give it to me. It would probly be different if i wrote my own lyrics.
If it were not for Alison and Frank, who practically kidnapped me and forced me to sing, I would still be confined to the shower.   All they had to do was be cool.
Parents? Haha, im not doing this out of rebellion. If I wanted to rebell I'd be a chearleader, but I do admit that their constant support can get annoying.
I would think, that when I get to be your age, I would love to be reminded of my teenage years. Kind of like me reading through my first grade notebook. Was it really that horrible for you? Or maybe it just reminds you of how old you are. I find elderly folks fascinating.

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28 Mar 04 - 10:24 PM (#1148613)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

I have nothing against young people, but I do think youth is wasted on you.

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28 Mar 04 - 10:24 PM (#1148614)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Midchuck

I would think, that when I get to be your age, I would love to be reminded of my teenage years.

Oh, Gawd. Anything but that. You suffer so much as a teenager, if you're the least bit different from all the rest. It's all suffering you inflict on yourself, because you accept the group's - the tribe's, I should say - judgment of you as bad and inferior because different. But it's very real at the time.

What happened at Columbine what simply an extreme reaction to pressures that a large minority, at least, of all teenagers have to deal with.

When you hit middle age, you are able to realize that the majority of the tribe are a pack of assholes, and go about the business of picking out the ones that aren't, to associate with. By that time, a number - by no means all - of the assholes have outgrown being assholes; or else become politicians or corporate executives. So there are more people available that you can get along with. But in your teens, you're either a bully or a victim. Both, depending on whom you're with, in many cases.

Obviously, I have a biased take on it. But that's my take for what it's worth.

I've had a very happy life, starting around age 20.

Peter.

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28 Mar 04 - 10:42 PM (#1148627)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: beetle cat

yeah, i guess im just lucky then, i hang with the old folks and leave the high school brats to have their silly rivals. so maybe im wasting my youth, but if its so horrible why bother going through it?
oh well. singing is amazing. it makes everything better.

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29 Mar 04 - 05:07 AM (#1148811)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Have you noticed that when you read an autobiography, the interesting part is almost always about being a child and growing up? Even when the person has grown up to do all kinds of interesting things later on, the first chapter or so is almost always the one that you remember and read again.

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29 Mar 04 - 05:22 AM (#1148816)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Dave of Mawkin

Im 17 (18 in 25 days) and Im a folkie (god that sounds like a start to a FA meeting (Folkies Anonymous) and to be honest I dont know what all the fuss is about! Ive never been bullied nor been the bully, ive never given a crap about what people think of my clothes,social class and manner, Ive never thought 'perhaps im wasting my life being with old folks' because Ive never thought it as unnatural. Ive been a folkie since i was old enough to walk, I went to sessions,singarounds,folk clubs and festivals and grew up being a morris dancer and performer. However my alternative lifestyle at school, I was in rock bands, I was a rebel, artist, hippy,prat, sporty person and general teenager. Going to rock concerts,festivals and pubs, clubs and parties.
I dont believe in segregation,i love music and life and believe folk music and co exist with everything else I do, I take my college friends (who are into garage,R'N'B and rock) to sessions and folk clubs but I dont get bullied for it, they just laugh and think im a little crazy, but Iam so I dont mind.

I think what Im trying to say is, if I dont do this all now, i wont do it when im 70. So to all those folkie teenagers out there, do what you want, say what you want and worry about the consequences when your older.

(and yes McGrath I noticed that when doing my autobiography and my band mates- www.mawkin.co.uk)

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29 Mar 04 - 05:22 AM (#1148817)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Wilfried Schaum

Not this man, McGrath - There is one autobiography I sometimes read again: Goodbye To All That, by Robert von Ranke Graves; but I mostly skip the days of his youth and start with the Welsh Fusiliers.

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29 Mar 04 - 07:25 AM (#1148897)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: McGrath of Harlow

That's why I said "almost always", not "always", Wilfried. Though there's something in common between war and childhood, and in boitn cases, the later chapters in of people's personal histories tend to get overshadowed.
................

..."As for judging people because they only use 3 chords and a capo to do a song , these were the tools of Woody Guthrie and Hank Williams. I have heard Woody quoted: " Anyone using more than 3 chords is just showing off!"

Actually that exaggerates the number. Here's what Woody actually said about this: "Well, I usually play songs in two chords, C and G, and every once in awhile, I throw in an F, just to impress the girls."

All right, he was oversimplifying, or rather he was overstating his oversimplifying. But not by all that much - he saw keeping it simple as a posituve virtue, not just something to tolerate.

And here is a quote from his granddaughter, Sarah Lee Guthrie: "I think Woody definitely gives me a ticket to be simple," she says. "When you think about Woody, you don't think of anybody's who's selfish; he's never just talking about himself. And that's very attractive, especially today, when so much of the music we hear is really very selfish... It's so great, having that kind of pride in being simple. He gives everybody permission to create and not be scared to be who they are."

That last sentence is a good one. (And the quote also suggest what's the problem, sometimes, with over-introspective songwriters of any age.)

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29 Mar 04 - 07:38 AM (#1148914)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

Hank Williams sang a song titled Alone and forsaken in Am which required a Dm and an Em.

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29 Mar 04 - 08:18 AM (#1148950)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: freda underhill

not Bill Arnett...

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29 Mar 04 - 08:54 AM (#1148983)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen

When someone is foolish enough to put me in a guitar workshop at a festival, I often like to do The Farmer's Curst Wife, or John Henry.. both of them I do with one chord. So often, most of the people attending the workshop are just getting the hang of playing guitar, yet the workshops seem to be a variant on Dueling Banjos. Everyone does the showiest, most complicated picking they know, with an "Aw shucks, it tweren't nothing" expression when they finish. That's why I like to show how you can do an interesting accompaniment with simple picking patterns. I love the version of John Henry done by Wade Mainer and His Mountaineers... I think it's very interesting, and yet the whole song is done with just a C chord.

Jerry

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29 Mar 04 - 09:05 AM (#1148992)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

I really admire the sensitivity and discrimination of those teenagers on this list who prefer hanging out with folkies -- who are usually much older -- than with their age group, on th e grounds thta their peers are insensitive, callow and yammering. Needless to say, I do agree.

I think ther sex was better back then, though!

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29 Mar 04 - 09:34 AM (#1149023)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: kendall

Jerry, some of the old time banjo players used to do a whole song in one chord, sort of like the drone on a bagpipe without the chanter.

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29 Mar 04 - 10:08 AM (#1149046)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Peter T.

I have found this thread interesting, particularly as I just suffered through a song session with 9 singers, all of whom were truly terrible, and 8 of whom were under 21. What struck me was that of them all, only one had some vague idea that there was an outside world made up of the audience. I have the same problem with my writing students -- they think they are writing for themselves, and not to be read by someone. Having spent many years in the theatre, the first rule I learned was that it had to go over the footlights. The other related problem was that the singers had no interest in the song, you never felt that they really loved singing or having a lovely song come out of their mouths(these were Cole Porter songs, Rogers and Hammerstein songs, you name it). Thinking about it afterwards, it occurred to me that one of things they had not learned was how to slightly separate themselves from their material so as to "sell it", but not so much separation that they were not affected by it. This is a complicated manoeuvre, and one either has it naturally, or one has to learn it after a lot of performing -- this slight separation move, I mean. I suspect that many young people are so wrapped up in themselves (or their nervousness), or being sincere or authentic that they cannot pull away from what they are doing even slightly enough so as to monitor how effectively they are doing. I certainly couldn't when I was a young actor, and I remember that now when I am trying to play or sing musically, since I am a shy novice (it all comes back to me, alas).


yours,

Peter T.

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29 Mar 04 - 10:49 AM (#1149065)
Subject: RE: Were we ever that young?
From: Amos

Peter:

As usual, insightful and delightfully articulated! SOmekind adult told me when I started singing that it was most effective if I was being there -- meaning in the song itself. Kicking it over the footlights is certainly the biggest hurdle of any performer starting out -- it seems such a far distance!!

Thanks, as always.

A

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