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02 Apr 04 - 11:26 PM (#1153321) Subject: see inside the guitar? From: GUEST,leeneia I am considering getting the device that JLD Guitars sells (as recommended in a recent thread) and the owner asked me to look inside the guitar and describe the bracing there. I've tried looking in with a dentist's mirror, but I don't see anything. Apparently the braces are too far in. Does anyone know how to do this? I can see the braces on the underside. Would they be symmetrical with those under the soundboard? |
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02 Apr 04 - 11:59 PM (#1153336) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: dwditty The dentist mirrror works fine, but you need to get some light nside as well. A small flashlight or a night light work well. |
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03 Apr 04 - 12:31 AM (#1153348) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: open mike there is a mirror which has a telescoping handle and swivellng ball joint allowing it to adjust to different angles. it is made for mechanics or carpenters (?) and might be available at a hardware store..I think i got mine when i was in a guitar buildiong class..the viewing surface is probably 2 X 3 inches. the dental mirror is probably smaller than 1 X 2 inch. there are a couple of them on e-bay--1 1/4 inch round..see this link http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3185716289&category=3191 called telescoping inspection mirror for plumbers, mechanics, and electricians... or go to e-bay and look for inspection mirror there are 3 avaialbe from one person and another in UK has some for sale too. |
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03 Apr 04 - 02:35 AM (#1153372) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: mooman I've used the dentists' mirror for 25 years without problem. I agree with dwditty that you need also some light and I use a mini-Maglite which works nicely. Unless the guitar is a very old or cheap one it is unlikely that the bracing will mirror that on the back of the guitar. It is much more likely it will be one of the variations on the fan-braced theme. Peace, moo |
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03 Apr 04 - 04:46 AM (#1153425) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: Richard Bridge Take the strings off, and then use a makeup mirror. You can even get a makeup mirror in without removing the strings, but it's then much harder to hold the mirror and move it to see everything. You can see much better with a bigger mirror, but you still need a light. There are basically three types of strutting and some variations on them. There's simple ladder strutting - struts just from side to side of the guitar. Highly unlikely on anything made in the last 20 years. Then there's fan strutting. Usually two braces from side to side, one the neck side of the soundhole and one just behind it, plus 5 or 7 radiating from the middle of the one just behind the soundhole. Often on classical guitars. It is easy if you are not careful enough to mistake fan strutting for ladder strutting, because the fan braces almost hide behind the side-to-side onebehind the bridge. Been there, done that. Then there's X-bracing. Typically Martin. One long brace diagonally across the lower bout of the guitar, passing about as close to the bridge as it will go, plus another long one back across the upper bout from the closest point of the first to the soundhole. These two meet the side of the soundhole furthest from the player's face, so the struts for a lefty are the mirror image of those on a righty. Then several others to make a criss-cross pattern with these, but obviously these other ones can't cross the long ones I first described. For the JLD, the main thing is (if you look at the pix on the website) there has to be enough room to get the block onto the inside of the bridge plate. The other thing your luthier may want to know is what if anything is broken or coming unglued, and that is harder to see! |
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03 Apr 04 - 08:33 AM (#1153508) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: GUEST,leeneia Thanks, everyone. I did try the flashlight along with the mirror. I'll see about getting a bigger mirror. The dentist's mirror is merely a circle 1 inch across, and it's very little help. Richard, I appreciate your detailed description of what to look for. Thanks. |
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03 Apr 04 - 09:53 AM (#1153539) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: DonMeixner leeneia, You can't try bouncing the light off the mirror into the guitar. It doesn't work very well that way, it can be done but it isn't easy. Use a small pocket lifgt like a mag lite or a cheap purse flash lite and put it in the guitar and then use the dental mirror or a compact mirror. OR Pull the strap pin, if it has one, out of the tail of the guitar and look through there. A good guitar will allow this, A cheap, older style, or even a good classical may not. Good luck, Don |
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03 Apr 04 - 11:29 AM (#1153578) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: Murray MacLeod I don't see what the point of this thread is. Who is the owner of the guitar under discussion ? If the owner feels the guitar needs a JLD fitted, then he/she should just take it to a luthier and he will fit the device, no problem. No need to bugger about with mirrors and flashlights |
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03 Apr 04 - 05:53 PM (#1153754) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: JohnInKansas There are quite a variety of "mechanic's mirrors" in all kinds of sizes and shapes. You can likely find them at most decent hardware, auto parts, etc shops. If you're fortunate enough to have one of the mini (2xAA) maglights®, remember that you can screw the lens cap completely off and stand the light in the cap for a "camp candle." With the cap off, and the bulb stuck in beside the mirror, you should have "360-degree" lighting of about everything inside. (It avoids having to aim the mirror and the light so they line up.) John |
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03 Apr 04 - 06:27 PM (#1153785) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: GUEST,Anne Croucher I bought a rear view mirror to put on a cycle handlebar recently - cyclists here need all the help they can get. It has a bendy stem of metal rings and is a long oval in outline, so it would probably give a good view inside a guitar - it is narrow enough to fit through the soundhole on my guitar and can be turned and adjusted easily - maybe something similar would help? Anne |
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03 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM (#1153807) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: Richard Bridge Murray, if you have to be a curmudgeon, don't be an ignorant one. There are dispositions of bridge plates and struts that make it impossible or very difficult (and in the latter case, therefore, more expensive, to fit a JLD Bridge Doctor and so alter whether it can be recommended. |
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04 Apr 04 - 07:53 AM (#1154065) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: Murray MacLeod Richard, if you can describe to me a "disposition of bridge plates and struts" that makes it impossible to fit a Bridge Doctor, I will apologise unreservedly for any perceived curmudgeonry. I can visualise no such disposition. If the guitar in question has normal bridge-pin holes ala Martin, there will be no problem. If it is an experimental instrument with a pinless bridge and an experimental bracing system, then it might require some ingenuity on the part of the luthier, but if he can't figure out the way round it, he shouldn't be in the game. As I said earlier, I can see no reason why the repairman (which is what I assume leeneia meant when talking about the "owner") should ask a customer to examine the braces. |
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04 Apr 04 - 09:21 AM (#1154093) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: GUEST,leeneia Thanks for all the tips, especially the one from JohnInKansas about taking the lens cap off the mag light. As for "I can see no reason why the repairman (which is what I assume leeneia meant when talking about the "owner")should ask a customer to examine the braces" --- Here's one reason: the potential customer and the owner (yes, owner of the business) live hundreds of miles apart and are not about to ship the guitar back and forth. |
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05 Apr 04 - 01:46 AM (#1154578) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: Songster Bob I've heard of people photographing bracing patterns by putting a normal (low-wattage) light bulb inside the guitar, taping the hole over (or cutting a cardboard cover, anyway) to prevent light-leaks, then using a timed exposure with a standard camera ON THE OUTSIDE of the guitar. The braces show up as shadows. Bob |
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05 Apr 04 - 03:48 AM (#1154610) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: Richard Bridge Bob - what a good idea. But it won't of course reveal any damage. Murray, if my memory of the JLD website is correct, it says pretty much what I said. Also I expect the customer wanted the luthier to indicate a likely price for fitting, and that is quite likely to be affected. But it was the sneering tone of your post that got my goat. |
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05 Apr 04 - 04:30 AM (#1154639) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: el ted saw it in half, easy! |
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05 Apr 04 - 12:00 PM (#1154935) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: JohnInKansas We used to say take it to the airport and let them run it through the luggage XRay, but I suppose they're probably "too busy" now. And if they found a "made in ...." label, they might arrest the git'. John |
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05 Apr 04 - 02:51 PM (#1155065) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: Hand-Pulled Boy I agree with Ted although an alternative would be to borrow a similar guitar from some unsuspecting fool, take it somewhere and smash it to pieces. All will be revealed and you'll live happily ever after, just like in the fairytails where you appear to be from. |
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06 Apr 04 - 09:21 AM (#1155621) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: Nick Wouldn't a digital camera fit easily through the sound hole (if you have access to one) and take a flash picture without causing any damage? |
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06 Apr 04 - 09:44 PM (#1156200) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: GUEST,leeneia The creativity here amazes and delights me. I'll try the light bulb inside. Don't have a digital camera yet. |
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06 Apr 04 - 09:54 PM (#1156205) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: wysiwyg Digital doesn't use flash! Needs ambient light. ~S~ |
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06 Apr 04 - 11:16 PM (#1156255) Subject: RE: see inside the guitar? From: JohnInKansas Most of the digital cameras we mortals can afford have a "closest focus" at about a meter or so, give-or-take a few centimeters. Unless you've got something pretty special, all you're likely to get by sticking the camera inside is a big blur. Digital cameras generally can use flash to take the picture, although the built-in flash on most lower priced ones is pretty puny. Quite a few of them have an optical "autofocus," and need enough ambient light to "see" the object in order to focus on it; and in low (or no) light situations they tend to not get in focus and produce mostly fuzzies - especially at "close-up" range. If you can get a camera where it can "see" the inside of the guitar, you can probably get an eyeball pretty close to the same place. John |