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05 Apr 04 - 08:32 PM (#1155297) Subject: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Bobert Well the heck is going on here???... First it's Arnold and now Englewood, Calif. is going to vote to allow WalMart to circumvent zoning restrictions??? Hmmmmm? If this goes down then maybe some New Jersey community will vote to let the Mafia to collect ptotection money from all the business's in their community... It's ain't democracy when voters allow any one person or corporation to supersede the governemnt... We arre, after all, a community of laws and when voters start to vote on who has to obey them and who doesn't... then we are no longer a community of law... Jus' one hillbilly's opinion... Bobert |
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05 Apr 04 - 08:49 PM (#1155307) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Rapparee Depends, Bobert. What's the story? Is a zoning restriction being put on the ballot by referendum? In that case it's democracy and quite legal. If, on the other hand, Walmart (or any other company) is paying someone to put it on the ballot, then there's cause to complain. Unfortunately, money seems to get things on referendum ballots. 'Nother words, I gotta know more afore'n I kin condemn it. |
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05 Apr 04 - 08:51 PM (#1155310) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Allan C. What are you going on about, Bobert? Can you link a news article or something? |
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05 Apr 04 - 08:57 PM (#1155313) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Bobert Danged if I know, Rap... I ain't heard nuthin' more than waht was on the news tonight and it seamed as if didn't come down to one particlualar ordinance but many. The folks want Walmart to do a 15 or so acre redevelopement and, from what I got out of it, they want an "overlay" district drated where Walmart can do purdy much what they want... Maybe someone else will have some more datails but if that's the bottom line then, being a community activist who had fought for tine changes that benefited small areas, I would be offended if a big corporation could just tell the zoning folks "screw you". Though, on the other hand, I've felt like saying that to my local zoning folks a few times... Bobert |
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05 Apr 04 - 09:12 PM (#1155315) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Sorcha Well,I hate to say this, but I won't stop shopping at Wal Mart until our local prices come down. If I can spend $3.00 or less to save over $50.00, I will keep doing it. It's the bottom line price that means the most to me. Sorry. |
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05 Apr 04 - 09:13 PM (#1155316) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,pdc Here's a link to the story: WalMart goes to the voters |
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05 Apr 04 - 09:36 PM (#1155320) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Bobert Thanks, GUEST, pdc... Afte4r reading the article (I'm more steamed that big corporartions have gotten so brazen that thay just think they can tell the government to "screw off"... I'm Green with envy... A group of us have been trying to do the same thing in a town where I own some commercial property and unless we bring in a mega-corporation to back us, it's an uphill and unwinable battle. It just irks me that Walmart may just very well get away with it... ...plus it sets a dangerous precidence in the way land is used. Bobert |
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05 Apr 04 - 11:51 PM (#1155358) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: katlaughing I supppose someday they will be seen as an illegal monopoly and then we'll see a bunch of "baby-Wals" set upon us! I really hope the people of Inglewood do NOT let them have their way. |
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06 Apr 04 - 12:26 AM (#1155365) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Deckman Sorcha ... You get ... and you deserve ... what you pay for! |
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06 Apr 04 - 12:32 AM (#1155369) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,pdc I really have to agree with Deckman. There is more to living in a community than price. |
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06 Apr 04 - 01:52 AM (#1155396) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Kaleea There are always going to be big $$ corporations who manage to find a way to "sidestep the government." Do not forget that wallyworld is a gigantic $$$ corp. Many smaller family-owned local stores went belly up after wallyworld moved into their small towns. The small stores could not compete with the prices of a national chain ordering gargantuan quantities of items from China, etc. to sell to good ol' American folks. Then after most of those stores went belly up, they quit claiming that "most" of their items were made in the USA. When they came out with their "price roll back" campaign a few years ago, I noticed the "roll back" sign anounced several items which I routinely purchased--with RAISED prices! The 1st item I noticed this on was $1.00 HIGHER than the regular price of the week previous. Perhaps more communities would be better off to not allow the big $$$ mega corp. chains in? |
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06 Apr 04 - 01:54 AM (#1155398) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: katlaughing pdc and Deckman, it's pretty damn hard when a single parent working for $8 per hour has to buy formula for the baby and Walmart sells it for $16 and some odd cents versus the next nearest competitor which lists it at about $24. I do NOT condone Walmart nor do I enjoy supporting it, but for my grandson's first year, at least, we will get such essentials there because that is what we can afford. We feel it is important for our daughter to spend as time as possible with her new son, so she only works 16hrs per week. There are three adults and one baby to support on basically one wage-earner's salary, that is Roger's. All three adults make-do and spend as little as possible for what we need. A year or so from now, when we feel it is okay for her to go back to full-time work, we will no longer shop at Walmart. For now, it's compromise our principles a bit, count pennies and give the child the best emotional, physical, educational start he can get in his first year, spending as much time as possible being nurtured by mom, gramma and gramps. Sorry, it's just not as cut and dried as the tired old horses you trotted out. kat |
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06 Apr 04 - 02:18 AM (#1155402) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: dianavan On an earlier thread I boasted that our community in Vancouver had led the way by keeping WalMart off Marine Drive. Well, they're back! Seems they have a new proposal for city council. They are now offerring an all new, environmentally friendly, WalMart, complete with bicycle ammenities and pedestrian friendly features. I can only hope city council doesn't fall for it. Unfortunately, they already meet the current zoning bylaws. I guess they just do not understand that we do not want our small community businesses to die. If WalMart goes in, it will destroy the core of our neighborhood. I know they have lower prices but how do put a price on a happy, thriving community? The benefits are too numerous to count. I thought we were through with WalMart but their persistence is unbelievable. Look out! |
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06 Apr 04 - 06:58 AM (#1155544) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Wilfried Schaum That fits well to a former thread about WalMart exploiting their employees. They now try to expand in Germany, but as a union man I'll never buy there. I'm no rich man, but fortunately I'm able to support our local vendors who treat their employees well. Wilfried |
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06 Apr 04 - 08:25 AM (#1155589) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: The Fooles Troupe Walmart stores have problems in Australia. Big barns with no toilets, no parking, no airconditioning tend to meet with resistance from local Councils here - not always though... and now the big barns are putting up snow shelters in the car parks. (I live in Tropical Queensland!) Robin |
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06 Apr 04 - 09:38 AM (#1155635) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Homeless Anyone who is fighting against a Walmart should read How Wal*Mart is Destroying the World and check out Sprawl-busters.com, if they haven't already. I'd recommend the book for everyone to read. |
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06 Apr 04 - 10:15 AM (#1155658) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Clinton Hammond " Jus' one hillbilly's opinion..." Kinda summed it all up right there... |
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06 Apr 04 - 10:15 AM (#1155660) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Big Mick Sorcha and others, I understand your needs and feelings. Do yourself a favor and read "Nickled and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich. About the Author Barbara Ehrenreich is the author of Nickel and Dimed, Blood Rites, The Worst Years of Our Lives (a New York Times bestseller), Fear of Falling, which was nominated for a National Book Critics Circle Award, and eight other books. A frequent contributor to Time, Harper's, Esquire, The New Republic, Mirabella, The Nation, and The New York Times Magazine, she lives near Key West, Florida. A READING GUIDE TO "NICKEL AND DIMED" I know you both to be decent, honorable people. Please read this book to understand the cost to other babies and women for the price you are paying. All the best, Mick |
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06 Apr 04 - 10:28 AM (#1155672) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: katlaughing Been there, Mick, and I understand, totally, believe me. Please see the other thread about Walmart and my postings. I am not proud of what we are doing. |
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06 Apr 04 - 10:47 AM (#1155694) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Amos Mick: Thanks for the pointer to "Nickel and Dimed". That Barbara looks like a real powerhouse. A |
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06 Apr 04 - 11:33 AM (#1155743) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Jack the Sailor Mick has been on the front lines in the battle against Walmart. I don't always take the Union side on an issue, but I admire what Mick is doing. I sometimes shop at Walmart. Since none of their local competitors are unionized or really pay any better than they do, its not a diffucult choice. Walmart is only the tip of the iceberg. Most corporate retailers are the same. |
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06 Apr 04 - 04:58 PM (#1156007) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,pdc Sorry, Kat - of course price is important when the pennies are being stretched. Some of the other information on this thread makes sense though: make sure that the WalMart prices are indeed the lowest. As soon as they get a stranglehold on a community, the prices increase, according to much that I've read. |
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06 Apr 04 - 05:01 PM (#1156013) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,pdc Dianavan, check out the Sprawl-Busters website mentioned above - they offer help in keeping Wal-Mart and others out. I'll repeat the site URL: Sprawl-Busters |
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06 Apr 04 - 06:23 PM (#1156075) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: JenEllen In addition to the others, this was from Yes!s Spring 2004 'page that counts': Percent of Wal-Mart employees eligible for food stamps: around 50% Combined net worth of the three Waltons who own 38% of Wal-Mart stock: $66 billion Net worth of Afganistan: $19 billion Size of the tax break Denver, CO is offering WM to open a new store in the city: $10 million Projected sales tax this WM will produce between now and 2016: about $1.6 million Value of WM merchandise (who earlier advised the nation to 'buy American') imported from China in 2002: $12 billion Percentage of the low-wage workforce in the US that is not composed of teenagers: 93 You can delay as long as you like, or make the claim of 'better value', but it's really only paying lip-service. Every product you buy is an investment. You are telling the company and stores that manufacture and supply it that you agree with what they do. In a case like this, every dollar you spend is condoning bad behavior. On the flip side, every day you spend above ground on this earth is another day to effect change. |
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06 Apr 04 - 06:47 PM (#1156091) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Big Mick Jack, with all due respect, most corporate retailers are not the same, at least not yet. Walmart has, by virtue of their size, completely taken the morality out of retailing. Not only that, but they are forcing other companies to do the same or perish. I do not have the space or time to detail it here, but there is plenty of documentation out there. I have done battle with this company many times over the last 15 years. The more I find out, the more determined I become. The world has never seen such a threat in the business world. This company, singlehandedly, has been responsible for widening the gap between the have's and the have not's in an unprecedented manner. You may attribute, in a very large way, the current crisis in health care coverage to this company. The long strike in Southern California, as well as several others, are directly attributable to these companies trying to compete with these cut throat bastards. All the best, Mick |
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06 Apr 04 - 06:53 PM (#1156095) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,Ranger Steve at work Bobert, I've been in NJ for 24 years and never met anyone belonging to the Mafia. Sure, we've got the NJ turnpike and some ugly places, but we've also got our share of nice country, woods, farms, just like every other state. Being a self-described hillbilly, of course, you have no idea what it's like being unfairly stereotyped. Back to the subject, they're not voting to allow Walmart to sidestep the zoning regulations. They're voting on whether or not to let them sidestep the regulations. There's a big difference. I'd say let's wait and see how they vote. |
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06 Apr 04 - 07:20 PM (#1156117) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,pdc I'd like to recommend a documentary that I saw last week, called "The Corporation." Although I already knew much of what was in it because my husband is in that field, I was still astonished at just how much corporations get away with. The film is based on the US law in the 1800s that declared that a corporation is "a person," with the same rights, etc. The documentary looks at corporate behaviour (both good and bad) and decides just what kind of "a person" a corporation is. It's just on its way to US theatres now, and after a few months will come out on video and DVD. I plan to buy a copy: it should be required viewing for every citizen of the world. |
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06 Apr 04 - 07:21 PM (#1156118) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: katlaughing thanks, pdc |
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06 Apr 04 - 07:40 PM (#1156134) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: JenEllen A way to sidestep Wal-Mart is to allow the companies that sell their good there to show thier goodwill to the consumer. Many times, you can find coupons for the price difference online, and if you can't, most products come with addresses and e-mail contacts where you can simply tell them you'd love to buy their product, but there is a $5 difference between your local grocery and Wal-Mart grocery and that you refuse on principle to shop at Wal-Mart. They can either send you a coupon for the difference, or they can lose your business. You'd be amazed what companies will do to keep a loyal customer. |
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06 Apr 04 - 08:54 PM (#1156177) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,pdc JenEllen, what a cool idea!! |
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06 Apr 04 - 09:23 PM (#1156195) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Bobert Ranger Steve: Sorry fir the bad analogy.... 'cept I got two cousins in New Jersey who are both members of the Mafia (my dad's sister's husband was ist generation NJ Mafia) and well, while I enjoy them both, I wouldn't croos either one in a business deal either. BTW, my uncle never worked a day in his life, always owned road construction companies and spent his life either hanging 'round his house 'er riding around in his Lincoln. Bobert |
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06 Apr 04 - 10:05 PM (#1156210) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,guest in Wisconsin We are also tired of the Walmarts building on the Native American reservations , and not paying any property taxes at all in Wisconsin. Maybe it goes on in other states but I'm not sure. I'm going to try to do what Jen Ellen suggested and see if the local stores will match the prices that walmart offers . Its sure a good start, and worth a try. Mar |
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06 Apr 04 - 10:06 PM (#1156211) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Bill D You MUST understand WalMart's business plan...they sell cheaply by driving out other businesses and making suppliers do the cost cutting by paying low wages and overworking employees...If prices are low, but WalMart is the only one in an area who GETS any profit, they can not only survive on small margins, but get rich, too! ("They" meaning the Waltons!) WalMart controls not only prices, but what you can buy, because if a product is not priced to suit them, they won't carry it! Yeah, I know..in some communities, it may be too late, as WalMart has no serious competition anymore, so some of you almost have to deal with them...but just wait till they think they are in control, and see if those prices don't edge back up!!!! |
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07 Apr 04 - 01:34 AM (#1156312) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Chief Chaos Its not only about being able to build there. If the proposition goes through they won't have to do an environmental impact study there (no big deal for a place that has been a parking lot next to an airport...but a hell of a precedent). They won't have to do a study on traffic impact (there are more accidents at the three intersections in front of the Wal-Mart than there are in the rest of this city). The list goes on. I really dislike the idea that a world wide corporation can act as an individual under a local or state law and end up with a proposal like this that lets them virtually ignore the laws that everyone else would have to face. I dislike supporting them. I already know about their employment practices and it is plain fact that they drive others out of business. The only thing I find amusing about them is that they are competing with the big gasoline companies in the area by offering at least 3 cents off their already lower prices. Unfortunately there is a state law that limits them undercutting the industry by more than 11 cents. Just who is that law protecting? Especially when the oil companies could just refuse to contract with them thus making their investment in gas stations a big loss. Oh well... Only problem is that the Wal-Mart is the only place around here to really shop. I mean that sincerely. I'd have to spread my shopping out over a 50 mile area to get everything I need. I can't afford the gas to do that, even though 11% of the oil coming into the US comes in just up the road and the refineries are also just up the road. The area also has a great deal of oil and natural gas production. You'd think we were in the middle of nowhere with the prices. |
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07 Apr 04 - 10:44 AM (#1156599) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Tinker David beat Goliath this time. Sometimes big money can't buy it's way around a reputation. referendum results |
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07 Apr 04 - 10:48 AM (#1156603) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,socially liberal business dude Okay, it seems some in this room are missing the point: Wal-Mart has low wages because many people in retail are just too scared to ask for a raise. Retail is like any other job. If you are hard working and assertive, you learn your value. You go in, ask your boss for a raise and guess what? A lot of times you get one. Sure it might be from 6 bucks an hour to 6.50, but assertive people make it to management, and Wal-Mart managers, although worked very hard, tend to make more than their colleagues from other stores. To me, it seems the ones that are doing the snookering are the leaders of Inglewood. How in the world can you turn down such a huge tax base? And if they really are so evil and such a bad place to work, well don't work there. Take their tax money and drive them out. And I understand it is necesarry to go through certain steps and do certain studies on the effects of the local environment. But can you blame them for wanting to curtail the process? A good example of how out of hand some of the regulations is the following: companies can get fined by OSHA for not properly labeling a bottle of rubbing alcohol. What strikes me as so ironic is economically depressed towns around the country such as Inglewood have for years been decrying the lack of interest larger companies have had in building stores in such neighborhoods. Now that they are willing, it's as though leadership, usually heavily influenced by fledgling retailer and food handling unions, are shunning the larger companies. This has happened in Chicago recently. As a former Chicagoan, this baffles me. You can go ahead and give the finger to Wal-Mart in this instance. But what is the city of Inglewood going to do when other companies start giving you the finger back? But of course, the city council of Inglewood and the Unions know what is best. For themselves, that is. |
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07 Apr 04 - 11:15 AM (#1156618) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,pattyClink Chief and 'business dude', skipping an environmental impact study may not be a big deal where you live, but there's a reason they call one of the major and most deadly faults in California the Newport-INGLEWOOD Fault. It's extremely important for a building which may hold a couple thousand people at a time in that area to be built to withstand whatever seismic forces will be seen on that site and the only way to do it is with a site-specific EIS. I hope you'll excuse my attitude problem. I live in one of the southern states littered with gigantic, junky old Walmart buildings abandoned while they move on to greener pastures in richer neighborhoods. They leave their own train of cheap built crap in their wake along with destroyed downtowns. Inglewood needed one of these like a hole in the head; and believe me, phase 2 would have been to abandon that toehold in a poor neighborhood for a better one in Encino. Bravo to voters for not being conned! |
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07 Apr 04 - 11:29 AM (#1156627) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Big Mick Dude, what a load of crap. First off, Walmart always demands property tax breaks. Secondly, they drive out most of the business' that are paying full property taxes. Thirdly, the money doesn't stay in the area, but heads straight for Bentonville, Arkansas. Fourth, all this supposed good they do in the community services through donations comes from their employees donations and the community. Very little of that comes from corporate coffers. They just take the credit for it. Fourth, they could care less about the environmental damage, as so well expressed by Patty Clink. Fifth, they almost always seek a variance to build in a buffer zone instead of the normal retail zones. This is so they will have access to multi family housing closer than their competition who followed the rules. They use their immense financial strength to buy off local officials. Finally, as to the ability to advance, what a load. Very few make it through to the management level, and they do so by screwing their associates out of pay raises and benefits to make the bottom line look better. This is why less than 40% of the people eligible for benefits have them. They also offer a number of health insurance plans. The only one that is affordable has a ridiculously high co payment, to the extent that it is worthless for the average person with the exception of catastrophic care. But for the average single parent raising kids, it is not worth the money charged. The policy that is comparable to what the average union grocery worker has costs the Walmart worker in excess of $800 per month. This on $7 to $8 an hour. This from the most profitable company in the world. I have serious problems with those that espouse here and other places one set of values, but when it comes down to it them, they go with the lowest price. At what cost? And if it was your family, children, grandchildren being driven to this, then what? In fact, those of you who are suffering from the lack of decent jobs can likely thank Walmart for much of it. Think Master Lock, Brown Shoe, and Briggs and Stratton as just a few examples. Mick |
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07 Apr 04 - 01:19 PM (#1156724) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,petr definitely go see the 'corporation' if you get the chance, while I think some of it is over the top (even a small business owner, I tend to agree with the main points) the rise of the these giant corporations, is widening the gap between the rich and poor in America. In last weeks NYorker article there was a wide ranging study of heights around the world and in North America, the interesting fact is that average height in America increased in the 19th century, but since 1950 has actually declined (immigration from asia etc, discounted) whereas in Europe average height has increased the Dutch are on average 3" taller than avg. Americans. while the Dutch attribute some of the reasons, to excellent (and equal access) pre-and post partum medical care, their love of milk, it appears that the main reason is income distribution. In the 17th century when Holland was one of the richest countries in the world this wealth was not spread equitably, only in the 19th century when it was did the avg height increase. another culprit is diet, in a European study with a children fed WWII diet of mashed potatoes cabbage, and another group on a fast food diet the children on the former were taller and healthier. here in BC something like 20million chickens will be destroyed because of the danger of Avian flu. (I wonder how much of this problem is exacerbated by factory farming where chicks are raised in near dark conditions, their beaks clipped, unable to move much, their water provided by little droplets - sure they can double a chickens weight in half the time it took 30 years ago but at what cost?) just so we can have KFC chicken specials $2.22 tuesdays? 2 pieces with fries. no thanks. ironically organic chicken producers in the are will also have their chickens destroyed. |
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07 Apr 04 - 01:29 PM (#1156737) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,pdc I also read the article on the chicken cull, petr -- and unless business returns to nature, rather than "manufactured" chickens in fowl factories, I fear that we are in for even more deadly diseases. I only buy organic chicken (and not often, because of price). If organic chicken farming is destroyed by big business, I will stop buying chicken altogether. By the way, do you have a link for that New Yorker article on height? Is it online? That's fascinating! |
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07 Apr 04 - 02:07 PM (#1156776) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Chief Chaos A victory for the little guy! I can see where you might think from my statement that I could give a rats bung about the environemtal study. I believe it is tremendously important for these surveys to be done. In this particular case they are trying to build on an already existing old parking lot. The studies are supposed to be done to see what impact the building/parkinglot/business would have on the surrounding environment. With an airport nearby I'd hardly expect a Wal-Mart to be able to impact the environment comparably. It would be a great disaster should a wal-mart full of people feel the effects of a 7.0 on the richter. Especially the way they build them. This isn't covered in the environmental impact study. It should be covered in the land survey (which the proposition probably also tried to avoid). I'm also living in an area with the old wal-mart husks standing abandoned just down the road from the new wal-mart supercenter. Since they've driven out the competition there's no-one to buy the old store. The zoning boards ought to have a law requiring the owners of a building put up a bond to ensure demolition if a new owner can't be found. |
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07 Apr 04 - 03:36 PM (#1156852) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Don Firth Wal-Mart ("Is that where people go to buy wall stuff?" Immortal words from the incisive mind [!] of Paris Hilton) is only one of the more obvious symptoms of some of the things that are wrong with America. But they're all part of the same plague. I am currently reading The Soul of Capitalism: Opening Paths to a Moral Economy by William Greider. Highly recommended (CLICK and scroll down for reviews). Another book I highly recommend is the following: since this web site (CLICK and scroll down) changes frequently, I will cut and past the brief review (but if the web site is still there, it's worth taking a look at the cover of the book):— REAGANISM AND THE DEATH OF REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY By Walter Williams (Georgetown University Press, $26.95)If the patient is to be saved at all, it's necessary to have an idea of the real nature of the sickness. Don Firth |
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07 Apr 04 - 04:06 PM (#1156876) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,pdc I agree with you Don, except I would say "sicknesses." It's a Gordian knot now. |
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07 Apr 04 - 07:20 PM (#1157017) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Rapparee Okay. Now for the Cincinnati area.... |
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07 Apr 04 - 08:10 PM (#1157064) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: dianavan Petr - Will you please start a new thread about the culling of chickens to combat the dreaded avian flu virus. I have lots to say about that topic, too. |
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07 Apr 04 - 08:11 PM (#1157066) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,petr sorry pdc, I didnt read the article on line, but you might have a look at www.newyorker.com if you can access the archive, they only have the current weeks stories online. But you might be able to get it from a library. cheers petr |
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07 Apr 04 - 10:50 PM (#1157157) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,socially liberal business dude Okay, the earthquake study is quite understandable. And I don't want to come across as some anti-environmentalist. But how, HOW can you justify turning away so much money, especially in Inglewood. People have been crying for jobs for years. At least Wal-Mart wants to do something the majority of major retailers don't want to do; invest in Inglewood. The message you are sending is "we don't want you." And when was the last time a union or a government official in Inglewood got you a decent job? |
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07 Apr 04 - 11:09 PM (#1157163) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: dianavan I belong to a union and have excellent medical and dental coverage. I also have an adequate pension. I am protected against harassment and discrimination. With over 10 years seniority, my job offers a great deal of security, a decent income and plenty of vacation time. What do you or WalMart have to offer? |
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08 Apr 04 - 01:07 AM (#1157215) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: katlaughing Well, thanks to JenEllen's advice, I found out we can buy the grandson's formula for the same price, from the company which makes it, so next payday we'll order it that way. That's about the only thing we buy there, so we can kiss off Wally World. None of us liked going there anyway. |
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08 Apr 04 - 02:01 AM (#1157223) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,pdc Good stuff, Kat! I sometimes think it's all a game, and we don't know the rules, and they do. When we learn some of the rules, we become better players and sometimes even winners! |
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08 Apr 04 - 02:19 AM (#1157225) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,socially liberal business dude Are you in a retailer's union? Or in a different union? I'm not trying to bash all unions. Just the retail unions. |
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08 Apr 04 - 07:43 AM (#1157329) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: kendall Wal Mart is the anti Christ. They are a tumor on any community. New jobs? Bullshit, they hire the poor bastards that lost their other jobs when the monster moved in, and they are far worse off than before. |
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08 Apr 04 - 12:09 PM (#1157555) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Big Mick Dude, I am in the retail unions. Perhaps you could address the points I raised instead of ducking them? The facts are that Walmart doesn't bring anywhere near the money to a community that they try and say they do. It goes on the first train to their home office. And they are a tax burden on a community. By the time you net out advantages against losses, they hurt towns. By the way .... who do you work for? I notice you don't post anywhere except in this thread. Mick |
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08 Apr 04 - 01:20 PM (#1157614) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: JenEllen I'm glad to hear it worked out for you, kat! After the Wal-Mart vs. Union fiasco in Wenatchee a few years back, a bunch of us sat down at work and had a "thinking outside the litterbox" session and brainstormed ways to totally avoid Wal-Mart. (The WM they have put in my town now has the service station and grocery-thingie going on, and the parking lot is twice the size of the store and always full. I don't know what it looks like inside, but I've had nightmares before...*bg*) Anyway, you'd be surprised how many people don't like WM, but think it an evil necessity. TALK TO THEM!! F'rinstance If you happen to get your car serviced at WM, check and see if you have a community college or tech school in your area with an automotive department. Those guys will work for WM prices, the work is supervised, and you are putting money back into the community, not into Wal-Mart. And if you tell them WHY you are coming to them instead, you might get an ever greater price break. And if they can't do it personally, I'll bet they know someone who can. The biggest thing that bothers me, personally, is the "Wal-Mart Good Works" commercials that we get around here (I don't know about elsewhere). Why rely on Wal-Mart to do your good works, with YOUR money. Do your own good works. |
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08 Apr 04 - 01:48 PM (#1157639) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Big Mick That's a huge pet peeve of mine, JE, and one of the greatest boondoggles around. Walmart acts as if it does all these good works, when the fact is that virtually none of it is with their money. In fact, until we started publicizing this fact, none of it was. Since we have been attacking them, they have put some of their own money up, but the amount is so small as to be ridiculous. Mick |
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09 Apr 04 - 12:12 PM (#1157880) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Chief Chaos Walmart comes in, wipes out the competition in the area, and supplies many jobs which are without benefits and are much lower paying than the jobs that were lost. This means that there is less money circulating in the community than before. how is that something that should be desired? |
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09 Apr 04 - 12:31 PM (#1157895) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Big Mick My point exactly, CC. The vaunted economic gain is rarely that all. When one uses good business practices to analyze the real cost/benefit to a community in the short run and the long run, it rarely works out to be a net gain. And the damage to quality of life in the community is one of the greatest costs. And DUDE, where are you? I have asked you pointed questions. I would like to hear your answers. Especially to the issue of where you work. I doubt you will be honest on that one, but I have seen your tactic before, in my battles. Mick |
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09 Apr 04 - 07:54 PM (#1158305) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Richard Bridge Thank you chaps. I am going to stop using ASDA - the UK Wal-Mart subsidiary. I'm not sure Tesco's, or Sainsbury's, or Safeway are really better, but they could not be worse. The bigger problem is that the conduct of Wal-mart is merely the logical development of capitalism. If you want a better world, you are going to have to accept a larger measure of dirigisme in the economy, because if you permit laissez-faire capitalism, you will get Wal-mart behaviour. |
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10 Apr 04 - 12:53 AM (#1158456) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Chief Chaos On top of the economic impact to the area, the folks at Walmart don't follow rules that help the ecology of an area. They should stop accepting overpackaged items. And for goodness sakes! Put a damn fence around the property if you're not going to put garbage cans in the parking lot! At least that way when you put the singular candy bar or bottle of soda (can of beer) in a bag you can recover the bag after the customer has discarded it getting into their car! |
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15 Apr 04 - 02:10 PM (#1162568) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,Socially Liberal Business Dude Well Mick, I'll address your issues. First of all, why in the world do you need a Union to protect you from harrasment and discrimination? There are laws that protect us. Second, shouldn't the people of Inglewood be greatful anybody would want to invest? 28 murders in a town of 112,000 people drives most business far away. I am a teacher in Texas. We are non-union. I'd probably be union if there was enough interest, but we start at 33,000 a year. Doesn't sound like much, but it's a lot in Brownsville. So that's the info on me. Benefits are good too. As for Wal-Mart, how can you even ask what they have to offer? How about jobs; something Inglewood is lacking. They may be "crappy retail jobs" as some have stated, but where else is an uneducated populace supposed to work? Most in Inglewood don't hold degrees past High School. And besides, if Wal-Mart comes in and easily wipes out Mom-n-Pop, how stable were they in the first place? I have never worked for Wal-Mart myself. I have worked for Home Depot, however, which as you know is another "evil" non-union retailer. They started me at cashier part time 9 dollars an hour. In Cali, it's nada. Down here that's quite a bit. In Chicago, Home Depot starts Cashiers around 13 or 14. Wal-Mart's pay rates can start low. However, if you make it to management, you make a good salary. You work your ass off for sure, but that's retail. And here's my final point. When is the last time your union tried to help hourly workers get into management? If they are like the unions I encountered in retail when I lived in Chicago, that would be never. It's a natural conflict of interest to promote hourlys into management, since in most situations you have to leave the union to become a manager. I'm sorry, but most retail unions do NOT want to lost those dues. Remember, retail unions take money from 15 year olds that work part-time then contribute portions of those dues (not the 15 yera old's specifically, of course) to many political causes. Sure, a 15 year old can't vote, but who cares? He can some day. P.S. Have fun boarding up more windows in Inglewood. |
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15 Apr 04 - 05:12 PM (#1162678) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Stilly River Sage Those article links expire, so I'm posting this from a search of Factiva (Dow-Jones). From the New York Times here are the first few paragraphs. Factiva (R) Dow Jones & Reuters --------------------------------------------------------------- Voters in Los Angeles Suburb Say No to a Big Wal-MartBy JOHN M. BRODER 1158 Words 08 April 2004 The New York Times INGLEWOOD, Calif., April 7 -- Voters in Inglewood, a racially diverse working-class suburb of Los Angeles, have soundly rejected a ballot initiative to permit the building of a 60-acre Wal-Mart shopping complex exempt from virtually all state and local regulation. Its defeat at the polls on Tuesday may portend difficult battles ahead for Wal-Mart as it moves forward with plans to build 40 so-called supercenters in California, combining Wal-Mart's usual assortment of goods with large grocery departments on as much as 200,000 square feet of floor space. The Los Angeles City Council is preparing an ordinance that would in essence outlaw the building of such retail behemoths within the city limits, and several other California cities, including San Diego, are considering measures. The Inglewood vote against Wal-Mart, 60 percent to 40 percent, was a victory for a coalition of unions, churches and community groups who said the development would have driven local retailers out of business and gutted the city's legal, environmental and planning powers. Wal-Mart spent more than $1 million to promote the initiative, which the company put on the ballot after local officials rejected the proposed development last year. The vote was closely watched around the nation as a test of Wal-Mart's ability to sway public opinion and influence political bodies as the company continues its move from rural and small-town America into its largest cities. Opponents cheered their victory, depicting it as a triumph of David over Goliath. Wal-Mart, with annual sales of more than $250 billion and more than 1.3 million employees, is the world's largest retailer. Inglewood is a city of about 113,000 people, roughly half black and half Latino. An estimated 10,000 households are headed by union members. "I think that it means that Wal-Mart has to go through the front door and deal with cities and communities as equals," said Madeline Janis-Aparicio, leader of the Coalition for a Better Inglewood, a group formed to fight the Wal-Mart project. "They can't trick cities and communities into giving away the store, getting everything they want without any oversight. They're going to have to do business differently if they want to do business in California." The Rev. Altagracia Perez, rector of the Holy Faith Episcopal Church in Inglewood, said that while many of her parishioners did not oppose the building of a Wal-Mart store in their neighborhood, they objected to the way the company tried to circumvent local officials by taking the matter directly to the ballot. "They voted no because they didn't want to give up their property, their rights and their processes," Ms. Perez said. Bob McAdam, vice president of corporate affairs at Wal-Mart, said the company regretted the outcome of the vote but said it would not deter the company from pursuing its expansion plans in California and elsewhere. Mr. McAdam said that Inglewood's opposition to the development was largely inspired and financed by organized labor, which opposes the company's anti-union policies and relatively low wages. Inglewood's four city council members all opposed the Wal-Mart plan and were among the leaders of the drive to stop it. The Los Angeles affiliate of the A.F.L.-C.I.O. spent about $110,000 to defeat Wal-Mart at the polls. "We are disappointed that a small group of Inglewood leaders together with representatives of outside special interests were able to convince a majority of Inglewood voters that they don't deserve the job opportunities and shopping choices that others in the L.A. area enjoy," Mr. McAdam said. |
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16 Apr 04 - 01:37 AM (#1162877) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: LadyJean WalMart stores look dirty. I suppose they're cleaned, but they don't look like it. The merchandise is "stacked high". About a third of what they have is out of my eye level, and out of my reach. I'm 5'7, average height. This is lousy merchandising. I think they think anybody who goes to Wally World can't shop anywhere else. I do. I am addicted to Target stores. I have a terrible time not buying too much there. Target looks clean, and nothing is above eye level for me. They give the impression that they value their customers. WalMart does not. It's interesting that the WalMart stores in the comercials look much nicer than real ones. |
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16 Apr 04 - 09:37 PM (#1163635) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Bobert Thanks, SRS, fir posting that. I hadn't heard anything more about it on the news. Normal... And I'm sure that WalMart will now reload and try another way to get into that market... Just something about money... And just for the record, I have spent my last dime in Walmart. It's been history for quite a while now... Bobert |
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16 Apr 04 - 11:55 PM (#1163690) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,Ron Davies The Wall St. Journal, that well-known leftist rag, had some info on this topic recently. In a 28 March 2004 article, the WSJ pointed out that even economy-minded megastores need not be a Walmart blight on the corporate landscape. Costco treats its emloyees far better than Walmart ever has. Employees covered by health insurance Costco--82% Walmart-48% Insurance enrollment waiting periods Costco---fullltime 3 months, part-time 6 months Walmart-fullltime 6 months ,part-time 2 years Portion of health care premium paid by company Costco--92% Walmart-67% Annual worker turnover Costco--24% Walmart-50% In response to analysts' criticism of lower profit rates at Costco, CEO Sinegal says"I happen to believe that in order to reward the shareholder in the long-term, you have to please your customers and workers" Costco pays starting employees at least $10/hr. Cashiers are paid $10.50 to $17.50 per hour. With regular raises a full-time hourly worker can make $40,000 per year within 3 1/2 years. Walmart doesn't give its wage rates since they vary by location. Cashiers in its Las Vegas supercenter were paid $7.65 to $11.45 an hour. It would be interesting to know what they get in Texas and Arkansas. A letter to the Journal 8 April 2004 stated: "I will continue to seek out those companies that try to balance the needs of workers and shareholders. Not doing so is how we got to where we are now--companies focused only on the short-term bottom line, and the scandals that have erupted from that mentality" Another letter, 15 April, points out "Walmart has succeeded at least in part because of government concessions, tax incentives and credits, financial assisstance and infrastructure subsidies. Hardly a model for free enterprise" Yet another letter to the WSJ states that " while most Walmart employees get paid below the poverty line, the CEO received $18 million in total compensation. With profits of $8 billion, it seems reasonable that the company could provide employees with adequate wages. As taxpayers, those of us with decent salaries involuntarily subsidize Wal-Mart employees with food stamps, child care and housing vouchers." That's something even Socially Liberal Business Dude can understand. |
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17 Apr 04 - 02:38 AM (#1163744) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: dianavan Ron - thanks for the info. It looks like we might be winning the battle. This is what will hurt WalMart the most. Lets keep the pressure on and WalMart, out!!! |
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18 Apr 04 - 09:01 PM (#1164751) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST No, sorry, I don't understand. Inglewood should be happy anybody wants to invest in them at all. |
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18 Apr 04 - 11:23 PM (#1164825) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: GUEST,Ron Davies So, GUEST, in addition to being anonymous, you're also a bit thick. Well, at least you admit it. |
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19 Apr 04 - 12:00 AM (#1164843) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: dianavan Guest - Don't patronize! Who do you think you are? |
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19 Apr 04 - 12:16 AM (#1164856) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: Chief Chaos Just how many management positions do you think there are? And if someone gets inot that management position do you think they are likely to leave that position any time soon? Just how long can somebody making minimum wage (relative to the local economy) wait to get a raise or get into that management position. That is the same argument used by many against raising the minimum wage. At least in the military our lowest positions, those with the lowest pay, have the same benefits as all the other personnel. There is also usually a yearly raise to compensate for cost of living adjustments. There hasn't been an increase in the minimum wage for at least 7 years! By the way. Those laws and regulations to protect the worker are written in the blood of those that came before them. The gov't of the United States will not usually make laws regarding work practices until the worst accident actually happens. Unions give the workers a collective voice against a system that has millions of dollars at hand to get other workers to accept conditions of employment because they have no other choice. |
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19 Apr 04 - 02:46 AM (#1164916) Subject: RE: BS: Walmart Sidesteps the Government... From: v walmart came here to ketchikan, ak, about 3 yrs ago, and the local politicians recommissioned a 'rural' area of the borough into the city limits, so wally's zone would have to pay city taxes. this area was already "financially-challenged", from the pulp mill closure in 1996, when wally set up shop here, and the local clothing outlets have since left. but the walmart selection is always over-picked and lacking, like a plague of locusts have just been through the store. luckily, this wally doesn't sell food or do auto repairs, so there are still some locally-owned businesses in those departments. and a couple hardware stores have hung on. i think it's a sad sign of the times that walmart even chose to open here.. people were already resourcefully exhausted when they arrived. why pick here, where people are so broke, if not just out of spite? and, especially here, where there are 3 stoplights (now 4 - since walmart built it's own streets, and put up it's own stoplight on the highway, and it's own signs on the highway. what's even sadder, is that most people feel compelled to shop there since the other choice is catalogues, or internet shopping, and many even *like* it, since the local business owners were such pirates about their prices. the cruise ship industries - the other source of steady revenue anymore - who have bought up downtown - have their own shuttle buses to walmart to take the cruise ship passengers away a way out the road to shop at walmart, several times a day. Thusly taking away business from the downtown merchants (even though so many of them are just out of town carnies - hawking their "DUTY FREE" unsold souveniers from the carribean - where they have just arrived from, themselves). Them, and diamond and gemstone pirates from all over the world. Scary... AND - walmart's prices *have* started going up already. somebody needs to open a costco up here, fast! Probably a costco would put wally in it's place. in a "lesser of two evils" world, v |