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08 Apr 04 - 11:16 AM (#1157512) Subject: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert Well, no matter what mistakes were made by the Bush administration that Dick Clark brought up in his testimony before the 9/11 Comission, I have to give credit for Condi Rice in out talking the Comission. When asked yes or no questions by the Democratin members, she answered in length, saying purdy much nuthin'... Then the Repubs would give her the easy questions which allowed here more blah, blah, blah time. Blah, blah, blah, Congrates on the performance, Dr. Rice, but America is no closer to knowing how to prevent another 9/11 or understanding what brought about the last one, from it... End of critique. Bobert |
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08 Apr 04 - 11:39 AM (#1157528) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Ellenpoly I haven't heard or read anything yet, Bobert, but really, were we expecting anything more? I know this is a completely un-PC expression, and I apologize for using it, but I've always thought "shuckin' and jivin'" pretty much sums up all political spin. |
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08 Apr 04 - 11:42 AM (#1157531) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST As I read this my radio is on and she's still blahhhh blahhhh etc,ing. I was particularly put off by her opening remarks, obviously written by the White House Double-Speak crafters. It has been interesting to hear her tone of voice change as the qustions get more challenging. She also is obnoxiously interruptin people mid-question. I wouls like to see her facial, and body language at those times. But not enough to go out and find a TV. Bill C |
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08 Apr 04 - 11:49 AM (#1157539) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: CarolC She often has a sort of half-smirk on her face when she's lying. Has she been doing much of that? |
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08 Apr 04 - 12:40 PM (#1157586) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Amos Well, she's expert at on-the-spot composition of thoughtful remarks that end up leaving you where you started. I can imagine her defending a Doctoral thesis like that. She's got a great "rapid composition" machine in her head. Sounds soooo intelligent. But it doesn't do much to explain the blood in the sand, and the boxes of belongings that arrive home instead of the 20-year-old son. A |
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08 Apr 04 - 12:44 PM (#1157590) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Blackcatter I still get a kick out of the attitude that no one could see the possibility of an event like 9-11. There was a movie being made at the time that had the same scenerio. As for her complaining that the "chatter" wasn't anything more than "Something BIG is coming up" What the hell were they expecting? She's just Bush's house slave. |
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08 Apr 04 - 12:55 PM (#1157599) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Amos From Molly Ivins, Texas columnist: AUSTIN, Texas -- O Karl Rove, Karl Rove, birder thou never wert. If George W. Bush loses the election narrowly in November, put it down to the birders. You read it here first. What was Rove thinking when he allowed William Haynes II to be nominated to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit? There are all the usual reasons for rejecting a Bush judicial nominee -- he's only tried one case; no understanding of the Constitution; author of the "enemy combatant doctrine" that allows American citizens to be held in prison without trial, without counsel and without knowing the charges against them. But the fatal faux pas is the feather-blowing tale of Haynes' role as the top Defense Department lawyer in the case of the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. DOD wanted to use an island in the Marianas for bombing practice, so Haynes' team of lawyers argued that bombing the bird haven would not break the treaty and that the bombing would actually enhance bird-watching because people "get more enjoyment out of spotting a rare bird than they do spotting a common one." By this logic, we should drive every bird on earth to near-extinction and just think what a thrill we'd get out of ever seeing one. According to The New York Times, "Mr. Haynes says he only supervised the case and was unaware of the bizarre claim." He only supervised the case? Well! If you have never seen a flock of enraged birders, you don't know what danger is. These people don't just watch pewits and tweety-birds, they're into raptors, too -- falcons, eagles ... they know how to swoop and strike. If we find Rove beaten to a pulp with binoculars, it will be no surprise. How could he ignore the immemorial warning, "Beware the wrath of the birding legions!" Back to business. There's no way to keep up with the Bush administration's assaults on the environment, they're just endless. Most notable lately was the decision to let mercury pollution, which is extremely toxic, continue. With current technology, we could cut mercury emissions by 90 percent in four years. Instead, the Bushies chose a plan that will reduce it by 50 percent over 14 years, thus saving millions for their big campaign contributors in the power, coal and chemical industries. To make up for it, they warned pregnant women not to eat tuna. But that's not all: -- The U.S. Forest Service is going to eliminate any reviews of its actions by outside agencies for compliance with clean water, endangered species and historical preservation laws. -- The Department of Energy is moving to overturn a court decision on standards to clean up the country's most toxic and radioactive waste. -- The Environmental Protection Agency's inspector general has concluded that senior Bushies at EPA have repeatedly made misleading statements about purported improvements in drinking water quality. (Oh no, not Bushies lying!) And just for more shucks and grins, see this column of Molly's discussing Clarke and the bombing of Mexico....just kidding! A |
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08 Apr 04 - 01:15 PM (#1157611) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Teribus Huh?? Amos what has anything in your post above got to do with the thread?? |
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08 Apr 04 - 01:29 PM (#1157620) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bee-dubya-ell Anybody know where I can find a picture of Dr. Rice where she doesn't look like she's pissed off at the entire world? Not necessarily a smile. Just a neutral or pensive expression, maybe? And I'm not going to say anything about her using the "Doctor" tag, even though I think it's a bit pretentious for people holding non-medical doctorates to use the title outside of academic circles. I guess if it was good enough for Henry Kissinger it's good enough for Condi Rice. Wait a minute! Condi Rice ain't no Henry Kissinger! |
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08 Apr 04 - 01:32 PM (#1157621) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Ebbie Teribus, might this be relevant to what Dr. Rice is saying? "Then there's the case of Richard Clarke, the top adviser on counterterrorism to both Clinton and Bush. "In his stunning interview on "60 Minutes," I thought the most chilling moment was what he said took place immediately after 9/11: "Well, Rumsfeld was saying we needed to bomb Iraq. And we all said, 'But no, no. Al-Qaida is in Afghanistan.' "And Rumsfeld said, 'There aren't any good targets in Afghanistan, and there are lots of good targets in Iraq.' I said, 'Well, there are lots of good targets in lots of places, but Iraq had nothing to do with it.' " "Clarke said it was as though after Pearl Harbor, President Franklin D. Roosevelt had wanted to attack Mexico." Molly Ivins |
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08 Apr 04 - 01:37 PM (#1157624) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Amos T: Not much. A |
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08 Apr 04 - 01:41 PM (#1157630) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Teribus Ebbie, Point taken, and I had read the link Amos provided: "And just for more shucks and grins, see this column of Molly's discussing Clarke and the bombing of Mexico....just kidding!" It was the six paragraph and three bullet point long preamble to that link that had nothing whatsoever to do with the thread that sort of threw me off. Additionally, the, "And just for more shucks and grins," introductions indicates that this link was supplied as an after-thought. |
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08 Apr 04 - 01:47 PM (#1157636) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert Amos, This curent crew don't give a danged about birds 'er not much else. If they did then Dick Cheney wouldn't have taken Justice Scalia out fir a little hunting. Problem is is that there weren't no hunt to it since one domestic phesant after another were released so that chicken-hawks Cheney and Scalia could get their jollies blowing these domestically grown birds to pieces. Cheney himself murdered 70 of them before he tired of pulling the trigger. Now that really pisses me off. He come 'round my joint trying to blow up my birds he's gonna find out just how hard the boney hillbilly can hit ya'. The man is a sicko... That goes for chickhawk Scalia, too. Now back to chickenhawk Condi. (Sorry fir the creep but I love birds...Grrrrrrr.....) Bobert |
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08 Apr 04 - 01:58 PM (#1157646) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Teribus Hey Bobert, better not come over this side of the pond then, 35 brace for a days shooting would be considered pretty mediocre. Is pheasant a native species of the US? |
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08 Apr 04 - 02:21 PM (#1157665) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Ebbie I hope to read just what Dr. Rice did say. From the Daily Mislead, April 8, 2004:: "(1) First and foremost, Rice continues to make the now-discredited claim that the White House did not have intelligence warning them that terrorists were plotting to use airplanes as missiles in an attack on America. In 2002 she said, "I don't think anybody could have predicted that ... they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile" She said this in spite of the intelligence community having issued 12 separate warnings of such a plan, including a 1999 warning saying that "suicide bomber(s) belonging to al Qaeda's Martyrdom Battalion could crash-land an aircraft...into the Pentagon, the headquarters of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or the White House" (2). When presented with these facts, she told the 9/11 Commission in January 2004 that she misspoke and that she "regretted" her earlier denials (3). Yet less than four months after her apology, she made the same false claim, writing in a March 22, 2004 op-ed in the Washington Post that "we received no intelligence that terrorists were preparing to attack the homeland using airplanes as missiles" (4) Secondly, Rice is now saying through spokesmen that she was "not briefed" about terrorists' plans to use airplanes as missiles before 2002, when she began making the false claim that she had no such warnings ( 5). But even if Rice did neglect all 12 previous intelligence reports, she cannot claim she was never briefed about such a threat, considering she was the top national security official accompanying President Bush to the G-8 Summit in Genoa, Italy in July 2001. There, she and the president were explicitly warned that "Islamic terrorists might attempt to kill world leaders by crashing an airliner" into the summit." |
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08 Apr 04 - 10:16 PM (#1157687) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert Ahhhhh, like Osoma wants to hit the US hard and where it hurts and this ain't got anyone's attention??? Well, excuse me, but just waht do these folks do with their time, anyway??? Now they want it to seem like common place??? Hey, guy knocks on your door with a gun and says he's gonna take yer stuff and kill you and you go back to doing your crossword puzzle??? Come on!!!!!! Bobert |
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08 Apr 04 - 10:43 PM (#1157696) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Don Firth I listened to the whole thing. I'm amazed at the way the lady can smile and look like she's about to spit nails at the same time. But getting a straight answer out of her is like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. Don Firth |
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08 Apr 04 - 11:00 PM (#1157708) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bill D when they had days and days to brainstorm answers and positions, who even thought we'd get anything of substance out of her? They just keep claiming the vaguest points that can't easily be directly challenged with facts, and pretend they've 'answered'. Let's hope another 1-2% of Americans see thru this in NOv. |
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08 Apr 04 - 11:50 PM (#1157741) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Little Hawk Condoleeza Rice is a tough harpie. She would make even Penelope Rutledge pause for careful thought. There's a presidential election underway. The Truth is not the concern of these people. Dodging verbal bullets and creating a favourable impression of their candidate is their concern. teribus - Yeah, pheasants are a large game bird found all over the North American countryside as far as I know. They're quite attractive, with long tails and lovely plumage. They don't fly that much, but are good for a short escape flight when frightened, and they are fast runners. You see them in fields and forests quite often, but don't usually see them for long. - LH |
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09 Apr 04 - 12:09 AM (#1157753) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Stilly River Sage I was trying to post this when I realized the 'cat had crashed this afternoon: I have no problem with Rice being called Dr. Rice. In academia this is commonplace--someone with the Ph.D. is Doctor Rice; if she had a terminal degree other than a Ph.D. (such as an MFA or an architect) then she would be Professor Rice. She burned up a lot of time arguing and providing her view of things when asked for a yes/no answer. Bob Kerrey was trying to get answers and asking her to be fair and not burn up his time with her protests to be allowed to give extensive "context," but she kept up anyway. There was clearly no recourse for the panel if she didn't want to just answer the questions. At one point Kerrey made a remark and the gallery started to applaud--his response was swift "Don't do that!" He didn't want to waste time with public approval or disapproval of his remarks. After making one pointed remark at the beginning (because he wouldn't have the opportunity to face her in any other context) he was all business, there to have questions answered. She was clearly there to spout the party line and not give an inch. The last question from the last person was such a softball, allowing her to have the last word to assure Americans that Dubya was there to protect all of them. Leaves a bad taste in your mouth. SRS |
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09 Apr 04 - 12:18 AM (#1157760) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Little Hawk It's politics, that's all. Don't expect honesty from people who are trying to get someone elected, and you won't be disappointed. |
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09 Apr 04 - 01:43 AM (#1157785) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Metchosin Pheasants may be all over North America, Little Hawk, but they are not a native species. They're an introduced bird, but have been around so long and done so well, in some places, people just assume they are native. They are originally a bird of of the Ukraine through central Asia, southern China and Japan. They're also an introduced species in the UK too. |
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09 Apr 04 - 11:05 AM (#1157817) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Stilly River Sage That was Bobert who discussed Cheney's hunting. I had to go back to see what inspired this seeming non-sequitur. 70 in one trip? What was the bag limit? SRS |
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09 Apr 04 - 11:17 AM (#1157834) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST "She burned up a lot of time arguing and providing her view of things when asked for a yes/no answer." She's volunteered to come back if they ask. What I heard was a lawyer asking two questions, then insisting that since the second was a yes or no kind of question, she should answer both yes or no. Good for her for not putting up with that crap. "'(1) First and foremost, Rice continues to make the now-discredited claim that the White House did not have intelligence warning them that terrorists were plotting to use airplanes as missiles in an attack on America. In 2002 she said, "I don't think anybody could have predicted that ... they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile" She said this in spite of the intelligence community having issued 12 separate warnings of such a plan, including a 1999 warning saying that "suicide bomber(s) belonging to al Qaeda's Martyrdom Battalion could crash-land an aircraft...into the Pentagon, the headquarters of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or the White House'" It will be interesting to see what was in those briefing papers because it doesn't matter what the "intelligence community" knew, it matters what was communicated. Problem is it would hardly be surprising for all this to be true with out any of the information necessarily being known to key people. Happens all the time in my organization with only 15,000 people. Imagine what it's like where by their very nature, everyone's trying to keep secrets. That is how spooks work, isn't it? More importantly, I don't think it matters. Even with his supposed knowledge of the possibility of an attack, all Clarke recommended was setting up a defense specifically for the White House and Congress. How would that have helped the Twin Towers? The same goes for trying to stop the hijacking threat. I've been through dozens of hightened travel alerts traveling every week for the last 15 years. Nothing I saw in all those years would have prevented these hijackings -- until 9/11 everyone was looking for guns and bombs on the passengers, not boxcutters smuggled on the airplane before anyone boarded. As it was things had been on full alert for nearly 6 weeks prior to the attack at Clarke's insistence. What does Clarke think should have been done differently? Why is he only saying so now/ All in all something Clarke admitted early on is still the defining point in this. Even if he had gotten everything he asked for, nothing would have prevented 9/11. He's changed his tune since, but always says "I'd like to believe...". Nice sentiment, but he might as well be saying "If we had only known". The smartest thing I've heard come out of all of this is what the vice chair of the 9/11 Commission said on TV the other night. It doesn't matter what focus any one in any administration had or what they thought was important. What mattered was what they did. Clinton may have been more focused on terrorism as Clarke claims but Clinton and Bush achieved the same results -- neither hindered Al Qaeda significantly nor prevented the attack. |
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09 Apr 04 - 11:19 AM (#1157838) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,Strick Sorry, that last post was me. Someone keeps eating my cookie and I didn't notice. |
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09 Apr 04 - 11:57 AM (#1157866) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: katlaughing The full text of her testimony may be read at TruthOut. There is also an interesting interview there with John Dean, Nixon's former chief of staff, saying that he believes Bush lied and should be impeached. |
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09 Apr 04 - 03:52 PM (#1158096) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Ebbie Wow. Kat, that is a powerful page. I have this moment subscribed to the service as well as made a donation to them. I read John Dean's interview and will read others' as I go along. Thanks, kat. |
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09 Apr 04 - 04:41 PM (#1158140) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Barry Finn Clark apologized for failing the American people because it happened on his watch. Dr Rice excepted no responsiblity & made no apology for herself or for her administration claiming "who could've known". She was the cock of the walk, the head banana, the one who should've known what every one else knew. The one who should've seen to fixing the pipeline from the FBI & CIA. For all her intellegence she hasn't got the street sense God gave a rock. With all the info she had recievd it's impossible for me to believe that she didn't have an ear to the ground & an eye towards the sky, maybe all she had was a tounge in Bush's mouth. No one will turn upon the others, the rats can't jump ship until they're all sure she's going down with all hands & even then they care more for their own skins than they do for the nation. She was asked a couple times if she'd declassify some of the documents & make them available to the American people, she didn't even have the respect to acknowledge the question & continued on her merry way. She should be called the Teflon Doll but I doubt if the name would stick. Barry |
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09 Apr 04 - 05:10 PM (#1158174) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: artbrooks Ms. Rice neither said anything of any importance nor did she make any revelations. Was anyone really expecting anything else? |
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09 Apr 04 - 06:16 PM (#1158245) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,pdc No, I don't think so. I believe she is just a token and has/had no real power at all. |
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09 Apr 04 - 07:52 PM (#1158304) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert 'Cept 9/11 didn't happen on Bill Clinton's watch, Strick. Seems the Arab world gets just a little more pissed off at the US when Repubs are in control. Look back to the Berut bombing that killed over 300 marines. Who was the US president? No, I'm not saying that all the stuff happens under the Repubs but it does appear that the *biggies* do... Bobert |
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09 Apr 04 - 07:59 PM (#1158309) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Amos Condi's talking bit was completely meretricious and as substantive as a hand-tied trout-fly. Sho' is nice she got so larned in deebatin' though... A |
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09 Apr 04 - 08:18 PM (#1158322) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Ebbie Dr. Rice might find it fruitful to start laying blame on the specific shoulders of those who gave them this "intelligence". John Dean Compilation: "Bush's statements, in chronological order, were: "Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons." United Nations Address September 12, 2002 "Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons." "We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have." Radio Address October 5, 2002 "The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons." "We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas." "We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States." "The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." Cincinnati, Ohio Speech October 7, 2002 "Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent." State of the Union Address January 28, 2003 "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." Address to the Nation March 17, 2003 |
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09 Apr 04 - 09:11 PM (#1158336) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert Well, it's easy to point fingures at "intellegence", for a lack of a better word but Bush, when told by George Tenant to not include those "16 words", went ahead and did it anyway... And lets not forget the inspectors who were in Iraq and making progress... ... or the millions of folks in the streets beggin' Bush to be purdy danged sure he knew what he was doing but... Bush was trigger happy. Pure and simple. Bobert |
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09 Apr 04 - 09:30 PM (#1158347) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,pdc Well, I'd say he's simple, Bobert, but not pure. |
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09 Apr 04 - 11:03 PM (#1158410) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Peace Who here expected anything but bull? Really. |
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09 Apr 04 - 11:13 PM (#1158419) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Strick "'Cept 9/11 didn't happen on Bill Clinton's watch, Strick. Seems the Arab world gets just a little more pissed off at the US when Repubs are in control. Look back to the Berut bombing that killed over 300 marines. Who was the US president?" Bullshit, Bobert. When did they try to blow up the World Trade Center the first time? What about the US Embassies they attacked? The Cole? If we hadn't gotten lucky and a border guard gotten suspicious, we might be short one bridge over the Golden Gate in San Franscico back in 2000. Selective memory, Bobert or are you getting forgetful in our mutual old age like I am? |
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10 Apr 04 - 12:29 AM (#1158445) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Blackcatter And not that I'm a big fan of Clinton either, but at least the Israeli/Palastinian issue was being addressed by his administration. But the simple truth is that if we stopped giving $3 billion+ a year to Israel, started using the U.N. to mediate issues in the Middle East and learn how to not be so reliant on mid-east oil, they would leave us alone. I just wish that Canada could do a corporate takeover of the American government. Hell, Belize could do a better job. |
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10 Apr 04 - 01:05 PM (#1158590) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,pdc This rather astonishing letter initially seems far-fetched, until you look at who wrote it - a Republican woman who had been inside government, and until you remember the old adage, "follow the money." Open Letter to Condi from Catherine Austin Fitts, former Assistant Secretary of Housing: excerpt: "... April 9, 2004 Dear Ms. Rice: I am writing to communicate four points regarding your testimony yesterday under oath before the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States. Point #1: You are a liar. Attorney General Ashcroft sits on the National Security Council. Warned by his FBI security detail, the head of law enforcement for the United States knew to avoid commercial airlines on September 11, 2001. It was your job as National Security Advisor to make sure that the people who flew on American Airlines Flight 11, United Airlines Flight 175, United Airlines Flight 93 and American Airlines Flight 77 had the benefit of the same warnings as those they paid to protect us. You knew. You kept silent. They died. You had numerous warnings of the risks of 9-11 – sufficient to let the American people know and use their best judgment as to how to protect themselves from a possible attack. It was your job as National Security Advisor to make sure that the people in the South Tower of the World Trade Center had the knowledge they needed to evacuate their building upon seeing the North Tower hit by a plane. You knew. You kept silent. They died..." Complete Article |
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10 Apr 04 - 08:19 PM (#1158901) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: DougR I knew it, I knew it! Just a week or so ago most of you folks were lambasting the Bush administration for following the tradition that White House staff members do not testify before commissions of this type. At the time, I predicted that even if Condi Rice testified you complainers wouldn't be satisfied. I regret that I was right. I would much rather have been wrong. DougR |
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10 Apr 04 - 08:29 PM (#1158909) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Don Firth Doug, you miss the point as usual (rather intentionally, obviously). Condi Rice's testimony was anything but satisfactory. She ducked and dodged and talked a blue streak, but not one straight answer to the questions that were put to her. The families of those killed in the attack on the WTO (without whose insistence, the hearings wouldn't have been held in the first place) were not satisfied, and some of them were Republicans. Bloody farce. Don Firth |
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10 Apr 04 - 09:02 PM (#1158932) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert Not exactly BS, Strick.... Over the last 30 years with both Repubs and Dems in the White House it seems the Repubs are winning about 3500 dead Americans to terrorists to less than a 100 dead for the Dems. No matter how one twists the numbers these are the facts. Even when you factor in that the Repubs have possessed the White House more in this time, it still ain't even close.... Bobert |
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11 Apr 04 - 12:36 AM (#1159018) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Strick Only because Al Qaeda wasn't as successful with their first attack on the Twin Towers and not for a lack of trying, Bobert. You don't suspose that that 9/11 would have happened if someone had taken effective action against them when they first started all this, do you? The blame game is nothing but politics and demeaning to the dead. Remember what's really the heart of the issue the Commission says they're trying to address. What should have been done to stop Al Qaeda and when, not who's to blame for what. While Clarke's perception of who might or might not have been more focused was interesting, I'm a lot more convinced by the Washington Post's analysis of the situtation in which they concluded that no one did much to really try to stop Al Qaeda. And of course, Clarke's own admission that nothing he ever recommended would have prevented 9/11, anyway. I do notice that you don't seem to consider the 300 or so non-Americans killed in the Embassy attacks important. Interesting. |
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11 Apr 04 - 09:37 AM (#1159174) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Stilly River Sage In the "Pretty darn good comeback" department (and I wish I'd seen it!): Janet Spoofs Super Bowl Flash on 'SNL' April 11, 2004 07:38 AM EDT NEW YORK - It was inevitable: Janet Jackson spoofing her infamous wardrobe malfunction by flashing a heavily pixillated breast on "Saturday Night Live." The one surprise was the context. Jackson portrayed national security adviser Condoleezza Rice opening her blouse at the Sept. 11 commission hearings, in an opening skit on the comedy show. The skit showed Vice President Dick Cheney, played by Darrell Hammond, suggesting Rice should "flash a boob" to distract the public from her testimony. "Just one headlight, real quick," he said. "It does two things. You win over the liberals, plus, it's a distraction for the press. I guarantee that's going to be the headline, not the bin Laden thing." Jackson, as Rice, huffily refuses. "I am not a prude, sir, but this hearing is not the forum for that kind of lewd conduct," she said. "There are other forums, like pay television or national sporting championships. That would be fine, but I am the national security adviser." Cheney reluctantly agreed. "It was Ashcroft's idea," he said. The scene shifted to the commission hearing. Rice, tongue-tied under questioning, opened her blouse and pretended to reveal her right breast - the same one seen by millions of Super Bowl viewers during her halftime performance. This time, the breast was heavily blurred by the network. Jackson was the guest host and musical guest on "Saturday Night Live." SRS |
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11 Apr 04 - 10:08 AM (#1159192) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert First of all, the 300 marines killed in Beruit was under Reagans watch, Strick. And secondly, unless my rememorator ain't rememboratin' to good, the 300 embassey number is highly inflated. Hey, no one is saying that Clinton was all that great but he did work tirelessly on the Middle East troubles. Bush, when he came into office, didn't want to do anything the way Clinton did things. He turned his back on the Middle East and in doing so created an atmosphere where the bin Laden's of the world had a lot of sympathy and support in the Arab world. Bad foriegn policy then. Bas foriegn policy now. Bobert |
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11 Apr 04 - 10:36 AM (#1159217) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Strick "Bush, when he came into office, didn't want to do anything the way Clinton did things. He turned his back on the Middle East and in doing so created an atmosphere where the bin Laden's of the world had a lot of sympathy and support in the Arab world." According to the Aug 6th PDB, Clinton's actions prompted Ben Laden's attacks on the US. No matter what we do, Arabs are going to assume we side with Israel, we always have and it's political suicide to suggest anything else. Actually, not doing things the way Clinton did so many things is a positive thing for must of us. Want to rent the Lincoln bedroom? Buy a Presidential pardon? Don't let him around your daughter. Clinton was a joke across much of the world, at least from my personal experience. You couldn't catch a cab in a foreign country without someone telling a Clinton joke. |
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11 Apr 04 - 11:00 AM (#1159232) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert Well, Strict, according to a poll released this morning and aired on an ABC news show I was just watching, folks around the world consider the US to be a gretaer threat than the *terrorists*... That didn't happen under a guy who you discribe as "a joke across much of the world" but under your guy. And if you'll recall, he had allready pissed of the Europens long before 9/11 with his arrogance and lack of vision or knowledge, or have you forgotten about that? Bobert |
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11 Apr 04 - 11:16 AM (#1159239) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Stilly River Sage Strick, you think Bush hasn't had loads of people stay in the Lincoln bedroom? Get real. Of course he has. EVERY president has. It's part of the package, a really really nice guest room for your friends and contributors. There is never going to be a pure play as far as finger pointing and assigning blame for events like embassy bombings and the airliners-as-missles of Sept. 11. Somebody as predecessor always sets up the next guy in office. Clinton's mistake was in having an affair with a twit who bragged about it to her buddies. Having affairs is another all-too-familiar tension-breaker in the White House. Bush senior is alleged to have had an affair with one of his staffers on a trip to Geneva in 1984. Despite being written about, whoever the staffer was, she kept her mouth shut and that ended it. Bush also didn't have Richard Mellon Scaife hounding his ass for his entire presidency. SRS |
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11 Apr 04 - 04:26 PM (#1159383) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: DougR Don: you must revel with being in the minority! The majority of those I have heard comment on Rice's testimony thought she did a very credible job. I thought she did too. You, and those who share your view, would never be satisfied with her testimony unless she testified that the Bush administration was totally responsible for the 9/11 attacks, knew about it in advance but refused to stop it, etc. etc. etc. DougR |
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11 Apr 04 - 04:34 PM (#1159387) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,pdc It amazes me when someone refers to a president who is "a joke around the world" as Clinton, rather than Bush. Clinton's BJ was a joke, sure, but Bush is seen as a bad joke internationally. |
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11 Apr 04 - 05:29 PM (#1159407) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Strick "Clinton's mistake was in having an affair with a twit who bragged about it to her buddies." No, his mistake was lying about it under oath. Twice. That he's been charged with sexual harrassment (what 5 times?) and rape are incidental. Some men in power forget that "no" is a possible answer. Bobert, that doesn't change the fact you were trying to paint Bush in negative light because more people died in terrorist attacks during his watch. It wasn't for a lack to trying during the Clinton administration. If that truck bomb under the World Trade Center had been as successful they hoped, another Oklahoma City, none of the 10,000 people in the building would have gotten out alive. If that had happened, if they had died, would you still be using that as a criteria for who did a better job? It's not as if Clinton did a single thing to prevent that attack or moderate it's effectiveness. |
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11 Apr 04 - 07:53 PM (#1159503) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert No? I suppose that Richard Clark is lieing thru his teeth to sell books. And O'Niel... Face it, Strick, the more we learn on Bush's desire to attack Iraq from Day 1, the more we see that he was indeed less vigilant in fighting terrorism. The day before 9/11 whe3n he was interviewed while golfing he was Hellbent on focusing on Saddam Hussien. Hey, that's not just an opinion. It's fact. Condi Rice was supposed to give a speech on 9/11 on national security that contained not a single reference to terrorism. Hmmmmmmmm? No disrepect, pal, but I can see that pair of two's yer holding in the mirror behind you. Sure you want to keep betting? Bobert |
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11 Apr 04 - 08:12 PM (#1159510) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,pdc Bobert said, "Condi Rice was supposed to give a speech on 9/11 on national security that contained not a single reference to terrorism." Isn't that the speech that the White House has refused to release? Gee, wonder why... |
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11 Apr 04 - 08:17 PM (#1159516) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert Well, pdc, I reckon before *9/ll-gate* is done we'll have that speech, too. Bobert |
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11 Apr 04 - 08:54 PM (#1159540) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Little Hawk What president would NOT lie under oath about having illicit sex with an employee, while he thought he could still get away with lying? Answer: none of them. They would all lie under oath. Clinton's sin was not that he had sex with Monica, and not that he lied under oath, but merely this: HE GOT CAUGHT LYING!!! Face it, Clinton-hating partisan Republicans...Bill Clinton did exactly what a Republican president always does when confronted with damaging accusations of misbehaviour...evade, deny, stonewall, and lie. The only reason you can't stand Clinton doing it is because you don't like him in the first place! Because he's a Democrat. If a Republican you really liked lied under oath you would find excuses to justify it...you'd wiggle around the issue somehow...you'd say it really wasn't relevant because of something else that was much more important....which was, in fact, the case with Clinton's little Lewinsky problem (a tempest in a teapot). You need to study up on your own prejudices and how they influence your reasoning mind...and at least derive some self-deprecating amusement in the process. Me, I can't stand either the Republicans or the Democrats, so I think it's easier for me to think clearly on such partisan issues than it is for you....but that's just my own slant on it. I would turf both of them out of office permanently and disband the jerks if I had the power to, and return some honesty to politics. - LH |
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11 Apr 04 - 09:09 PM (#1159549) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,pdc LH said, "...and return some honesty to politics." That may be a little naive -- I think politics has always been a game in which dishonesty played a role. But I believe there used to be limits, based on honour, and a return to those limits would be a good thing. |
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11 Apr 04 - 10:39 PM (#1159581) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Strick "No? I suppose that Richard Clark is lieing thru his teeth to sell books." I honestly don't know what Clarke's doing. I do trust the Washington Post's comparison of the actual actions of the two administrations (neither really did anything significant) over his perceptions of who thought what. "Clinton's sin was not that he had sex with Monica, and not that he lied under oath, but merely this: HE GOT CAUGHT LYING!!!" There's a modicum of truth in that. I wasn't that offended with Clinton until he looked into the camera and said he didn't have sex with that woman. I formed this clear impression that he lied to the public becausae he thought we were all too stupid to know he was lying. Why not? He'd gotten away with it before. He brazened it out instead of telling the truth despite knowing that we'd be seeing evidence he lied before long. In this part of the world, the stupidest lie is one you know you're going to get caught at. I know you'll bring up Bush and WMDs, but I honestly believe if he or major players in the Administration they would have salted Iraq with WMDs long ago and this would never have come up. I'll freely admit very bad judgement. That they lied in this is simply improbable. |
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11 Apr 04 - 11:58 PM (#1159611) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,guest from NW "I'll freely admit very bad judgement. That they lied in this is simply improbable." telling lies shows bad judgement. that they have lied is fact. but the point of all this, without going over the specific instances that we here and everyone else have batted back and forth ad nauseum, is this... the administration had an agenda from day one. saddam and iraq. they took advantage of an incredible tragedy to institute that agenda making a horrendously bad judgement. many people have now died or had their lives horribly changed because of this agenda which has not for one second served america's best interests, advanced democracy or freedom in the world, has made us nothing but enemies in the world and distanced us from our friends and allies. i don't actually think there is as much outright lying as there is manipulation of the facts to suit this agenda because the people running this mess (cheney, wolfowitz, etc. with bush merely the mouthpiece) really believe that what they are doing makes sense. thay are ideologues, rich greedy war profiteering bastards who have no sense of what regular people's lives are like and have no conscince (sp?) to keep them from using innocents for cannon fodder in their holy war. they are just as stupid, unyielding, dogmatic, uncaring, vicious, and fundamentalistic as their counterpart bin laden. get these criminals out. |
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12 Apr 04 - 12:59 AM (#1159639) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,pdc I agree that Iraq was a major agenda item from the day this Administration took office -- I don't think there can be any argument made against that. There has simply been too much evidence presented. |
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12 Apr 04 - 10:10 AM (#1159820) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert Yo, Strick. You know that feeling you got when Bill Clinton looked into the camera and said he "didn't have sex with that woman"? Well, I had the same feeling... Trouble is that with Clinton, it was a one shot deal, and with the current guy, I get the same feeling just about everytime I hear him talk. Take just about any issue and the man is lieing thru his teeth. "No Child Left Behind"???... He puffs out his chest on this one but won't write the checks to fund it... "Mission Accomplished"???... What a joke! The was probably the biggest PR lie in the history of mankind. The ship was in sight of land, fir one but the cameras weren't allowed to show that. And Bush is quoted to say he flew the plane giving the distinct impression that he had piloted the plane in the landing. Ha! If he had been piloting the plane during the landing we'd have President Cheney as out president today, fir sure!!! Then we have mushroom clouds, anthrax, WMD, nuclear weapons, Al Quida connections, aluminum tubes, high grade uranium from Africa, etc, etc, etc.. So, my friend, if you take that rage you felt for Clinton because he lied about a danged sex act and do a little Wes Ginny algebra, you might get a small glimpse into how yer guy is viewed fromm over here. Bobert |
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12 Apr 04 - 10:37 AM (#1159832) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Strick "Trouble is that with Clinton, it was a one shot deal, and with the current guy, I get the same feeling just about everytime I hear him talk. Take just about any issue and the man is lieing thru his teeth." On the contrary, Bobert, Clinton was lying through his teeth on an number of issues. Just never thought he'd resort to the in-your-face "Big Lie" quite so openly. Guests, you're right, we don't need to go through this again. Please accept that a very large percentage of the country thinks the Bush Administration was fooled rather than lied. Did they have an agenda with Iraq? Yes. Unfinished business? Yes. There's a lot of spin going both ways, but the last poll I saw still says the majority of Americans thought kick Saddam out was justification enough for that war. I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong, just that there's logic for disagreeing with you no matter how much it may upset you. |
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12 Apr 04 - 10:58 AM (#1159850) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Little Hawk I figure Bill Clinton AND George W. Bush have both told so many lies that their noses oughta stretch to China by now. :-) And, yes, dishonesty and politics are practically inseparable. The nature of Bush's lying worries me more, however, because it leads in the direction of a World conflict...one in which the English-speaking countries end up fighting most of the rest of the World. That conflict will lead to the end of the Anglo-American Empire and a new world order we can't even imagine at this point...presuming anyone survives it in good enough shape to actually establish a new world order. The Chinese might. And if he's not lying (which I doubt!) then his incompetence is leading us there anyway. I pray that Canada stays neutral, as Sweden and Spain and Switzerland did in World War II. - LH |
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12 Apr 04 - 01:27 PM (#1159975) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert Ditto, Little Hawk... An, Stirck, I didn't really expect you try to see fir one second the way that I see Bush... Bobert |
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12 Apr 04 - 03:58 PM (#1160100) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: dianavan He's a liar but that's not the worst of it. He put everyone at risk by ignoring intelligence reports. There was no faulty intelligence, it was faulty administration. |
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12 Apr 04 - 05:19 PM (#1160190) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Stilly River Sage Meanwhile, Janet Jackson redeems herself with a spot-on Saturday Night Live appearance. I've mentioned this before, but this latest review by Tom Shales has more information and contemplation of the satirical work of that complex skit--not just a jab at Rice and Bush but also at the ludicrous FCC goings-on--all in one tidy package. I do wish I'd seen it.
In the very first sketch, before the opening credits, Jackson did a bull's-eye impression of national security adviser Condoleezza Rice testifying, as she did last week, before the commission investigating the 9/11 tragedy. Outfitted with prosthetic teeth that helped with the flashing of a coldly faked smile, Jackson as Rice rehearsed for her testimony with a sinister and snakelike Vice President Cheney, played by master impressionist Darrell Hammond. The full article is in the Washington Post and you have to sign up (it's free) to read it. SRS |
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12 Apr 04 - 05:44 PM (#1160206) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Teribus Taking the contributions of, Bobert, Little Hawk and dianavan - I don't believe I've read so much claptrap for ages. Bobert'll be back to talking about "heads on sticks", and "patriot missiles raining down" again before to long. "The nature of Bush's lying worries me more, however, because it leads in the direction of a World conflict...one in which the English-speaking countries end up fighting most of the rest of the World. That conflict will lead to the end of the Anglo-American Empire and a new world order we can't even imagine at this point...presuming anyone survives it in good enough shape to actually establish a new world order. The Chinese might. And if he's not lying (which I doubt!) then his incompetence is leading us there anyway." Effin ridiculous. |
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12 Apr 04 - 05:46 PM (#1160208) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,Shlio Tragically, one of the few people who believe Bush and identify with his viewpoint is Blair. |
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12 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM (#1160215) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: dianavan Blair is a "suckhole". |
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12 Apr 04 - 05:50 PM (#1160216) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: dianavan I meant to say suckle. |
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12 Apr 04 - 08:20 PM (#1160298) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,petr well If I compare Clinton lying about having sex with Monica, and Bush lying about WMDs in Iraq (of course the US knew he had them, theyve got the REceipts!) Id say the one big difference is the lives of 600+ American kids and possibly 10,000 Iraqis. (not to mention alienating most of Europe and the rest of the world ) and to put it in further perspective - Bush fought the 911 commission right from its creation and funding (Kenneth Starr commission on Clinton spent $55million more than the 911 commission) and the idea the Condi Rice testifying might set a bad precedent? actually the national security advisor under Roosevelt had no problem testifying to a post war investigation of the Pearl Harbour attack. |
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12 Apr 04 - 08:36 PM (#1160310) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert GUEST, petr: Details........... Bobert |
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12 Apr 04 - 11:24 PM (#1160411) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Amos Teribus: Howdy. Look...get your brains in gear, man. This is a nest of liberals. We are PROUD that we represent liberalism and wish people who use "liberal" as a swear word would bother looking it up. You obviously do not feel like a liberal, supporting the whole military solution throughout the Bush regime. So why...I mean what is it with you that you feel the need to plunge into what must be a nest of vipers, relatively speaking, and stand around barefoot stepping on tails? Is thisd a form of self-flagellation to make amends for some past political sin? Or does the friction and angst of conflict somehow boost your adrenaline output? What is the deal here? A |
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12 Apr 04 - 11:28 PM (#1160416) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Bobert He's on the payroll, Amos... Bobert |
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13 Apr 04 - 01:25 AM (#1160482) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Little Hawk Oh, teribus, I dearly hope you're right, and my predictions about the likelihood of a 3rd World War are "claptrap", because I DON'T want to see it happen! So keepa you fingers crossed... More delightful "claptrap" will no doubt be coming your way momentarily from all us non-Republicans who deny your view of reality. Yes, indeedy. :-) Add to that rubbish, balderdash, horse pucky, stuff and nonsense, etc... But here's a thought. Just bury us under ever denser and more lengthy verbiage, laden with pages and pages of quotes and statistics. Chances are we will become so stupefied that you will score a couple of juicy points and no one will even notice. By the way, may I say that Condoleeza Rice looks just like a cobra wearing a black wig? I mean the snake, eh? Brrrr...gives me the chills, that woman does. - LH |
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13 Apr 04 - 01:43 AM (#1160489) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: dianavan Terribus certainly used good logic to shoot holes in one of my arguments. That doesn't take too much since I'm certainly not a political scientist. He will not, however, convince me that Bush and the Republicans are anything but a bunch of irresponsible thugs who use their victims to serve their greedy agenda. Yes, Condi is also an alien with reptilian genes. I have to hand it to her though, she is certainly cool under pressure. Cold and calculating is a better word. I didn't do it and Bush didn't do it - it was another, unamed bureaucrat. Isn't that admitting that they don't know whats going on? Doesn't instill confidence in me, thats for sure. |
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13 Apr 04 - 11:24 AM (#1160847) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Little Hawk She could outfreeze anyone, that woman. She is a zealot who believes implicitly in what she is doing and plays to win at all times, regardless of consequence. |
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13 Apr 04 - 01:05 PM (#1160978) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: GUEST,petr the real issue as I see it is not whether the Bush Admin. blew it prior to 911. It wasnt that easy to predict, and whatever blame there is regarding 911 is spread among everybody including previous administrations. But the Iraq venture is Bushs own idea and project, and he and his team Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz have been wrong everystep of the way - There were NO WMDS, they werent greeted as liberators with flowers (like in france in wwII - as both Cheney and WOlfowitz predicted) they were wildly inaccurate in terms of required troop strength needed to hold and secure Iraq once the major fighting is over) Remember Wolfowitz saying that SHinsekis troop requirement estimate is WILDLY off the mark. well.. now they are asking other countries to send troops, well if they dont need anymore American troops why would they need troops from other countries? now they are heading for a 3month handover of power in Iraq. But when Bremer was asked the other day who they are handing the power over to, he said 'Thats a good question' (in my book thats a Bad Answer) the June 3oth handover deadline is only there for election timing purposes, because whats going to happen afterwards if the IRaqi governing council wants to do something the US doesnt? the fact is its time for Bush to lead, get out of the ranch, fire some of those idiots in the pentagon who are hated by the military anyway, and try to build a real coalition of nations with the UN to help setup an elected govt in Iraq. But lets face it it aint gonna happen, because in times of opposition BUsh just digs in and it would be admitting an error. the blame for allowing 911 to happen is nothing compared to being wrong about Iraq every step of the way, and even if Kerry is elected in Nov. the US will have to stay there for years to come, otherwise it will degenerate to a civil war, and provide a haven for terrorists as Afghanistan did. |
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13 Apr 04 - 01:09 PM (#1160984) Subject: RE: BS: Condi Rice Runs out the clock... From: Amos ...with a much more developed infrastructure. 'Course we can unstructure things like that purdy quick... A |