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20 Apr 04 - 07:26 AM (#1165946) Subject: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST The latest Washington Post-ABC News poll is out, and it doesn't look good for Kerry. Since the Post requires registration, I'm providing some excerpts from the article in today's Post: President Bush holds significant advantages over John F. Kerry in public perceptions of who is better equipped to deal with Iraq and the war on terrorism, and he has reduced the advantages his Democratic challenger held last month on many domestic issues, according to a Washington Post-ABC News Poll. The poll also found that Iraq and the war on terrorism have surged in importance, and ranked with the economy and jobs as top voting issues. Despite signs of concern among Americans about the violence in Iraq, the poll showed Bush's approval ratings holding steady and Kerry's slipping on a variety of issues and attributes. By 49 percent to 44 percent, Bush was viewed as better able to deal with the country's biggest problems. Five weeks ago, those numbers were reversed. By comfortable margins, voters saw Bush as stronger than Kerry on key national security issues. On the economy, Bush has erased Kerry's 12-point edge and is tied with the senator from Massachusetts on who can better deal with the country's economic problems. In a matchup, Bush held a lead of 48 percent to 43 percent over Kerry among registered voters, with independent Ralph Nader at 6 percent. In early March, shortly after he effectively wrapped up the Democratic nomination, Kerry led Bush by 48 percent to 44 percent. |
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20 Apr 04 - 08:25 AM (#1165996) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: McGrath of Harlow See? - I said that that press conference where he was such a buffoon would help him, because people enjoy having buffoons on the telly. Homer Simpson rules... |
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20 Apr 04 - 08:38 AM (#1166009) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST It does us all well to remember it is still a long way to November. On the plus side for getting rid of Bush, there is the fact that he had to spend $50 million on Kerry bashing ads in the last month to get these results. On the downside for Bush staying in office, there is the fact that he's been hit in recent weeks with all the bad shit imaginable, and the polls show him gaining, not losing ground. As I said in another thread, my theory is, when faced with two candidates with similar positions on the main issues of the election, the voters will choose the incumbent, particularly in war time. Although it may only be by a slim majority, enough people will always vote to stay the course and maintain the status quo, to re-elect the incumbent. Nowhere is that dynamic more apparent than in the US senate. We'll see how things play out. If the Iraq war or Afghanistan or the war on terrorism goes so terribly bad that we are humiliated, as happened with Carter and the Iran hostage situation, Bush will lose. However, if this low level insurgency and charges against the Bush administration for serious wrongdoing becomes background noise, Bush will most likely win, because there are glimmers of hope for the economy right now. So long as interest rates don't shoot up along with inflation. I don't know how much longer inflation will be held in check with the rise in energy costs. We'll see. Too many unknowns right now to predict anything accurately in November. The situation is much too volatile right now for that to happen. |
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20 Apr 04 - 10:25 AM (#1166114) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Strick It may be a little more complicated than that. Will all the money Bush raised, only a specific portion of it was for ads. They tried to knock Kerry out early by defining him in a bunch of ads they've been running for the past couple of months. Didn't work for the same reason that all the knocks against Bush haven't worked -- most of us have already made up our minds and the ads only intensify the existing polarization. If what I read is true, most of the money left in the Bush kitty is for the convention and a round of ads nearer the election. That could leave Kerry with a free hand ad wise for the next couple of months. While he hasn't raised as much money because Democrats have been hurt more by the new campaign funding laws than Republicans (the average Republican campaign contribution is much smaller than the average Democratic contribution), he's supported by many more special interest groups who are outside the laws. |
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20 Apr 04 - 10:58 AM (#1166148) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Stilly River Sage GUEST, get an ID please. You're hard to distinguish from all of the other guests around here. Polls are meaningless in many contexts, harmful in others. Meanwhile, though Bush is known for raking in the bucks, Kerry broke Bush's one-week record for fundraising last week. SRS |
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20 Apr 04 - 11:18 AM (#1166169) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: MarkS I'm not a Bush partisan so please do not get me wrong, but I figure some of the recently uncovered details of what we knew about terrorist attacks and the fact that government had hints and warnings during the Clinton administration are leading people to think that at least Bush is doing something. It's not that the Bush efforts are all that positive and helpful - it's that there is at least a perception out there that any response is better than what we got from the last democratic administration. Mark (Who still supports you-know-who but is not making an effort this time to persuade anybody!) |
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20 Apr 04 - 11:37 AM (#1166191) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: McGrath of Harlow I agree with Stilly River there - I'm sure that the nameless GUEST (Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:38 AM) wouldn't wish to be confused with some of the other ones posting under the same name. (Just click on the "GUEST" at the head of the post, and read a few of your predecessors/contemporaries - I'm sure no rational person would want to be confused with some of them). And remember, any moment one of them might turn up on this thread to stir up confusion. |
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20 Apr 04 - 12:27 PM (#1166238) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST It is true Mark, that there is plenty of blame to go around. What I can't for the life of me figure out, is how George Tenet keeps his job. The guy should have been fired long ago. What concerns me more than anything, is that our expectations have been lowered so far, along with our standards of good government, that the Know Nothing Republicans will take it all in a cakewalk in the House again, and Bush will get back in because Do Nothing Democrat Kerry looks like a Bush lackey. |
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20 Apr 04 - 01:49 PM (#1166323) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: freightdawg It's only April for crying out loud. The only poll that counts is the one in November. Polls this early (and even earlier) are just to guarantee those stupid talking heads on all the news shows some job security. Polls can be skewed any way you want them to simply by carefully restructuring the questions. So, while I am no psychic, I will predict that at least once every month some major polling service will have either Pres. Bush or Sen. Kerry pulling off some come-from-behind resurgence. The ratings will stay high, the advertisement money will keep rolling in, and the gullible couch potatoes will swallow it all - hook, line and sinker. Growl. Elections should be limited to one sixty day cycle, and each candidate should be limited to one ad per TV station per day. Talk about campaign reform. They might actually have to get out and talk to real people for a change. A very snarly and already campaign weary, Freightdawg |
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20 Apr 04 - 02:15 PM (#1166345) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: jacqui.c I realize that I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but, I can not understand how so many Americans can fail to see exactly what resident Bush has done. Al Queada hit us hard, so Bush invaded a country that had nothing to do with that attack. That's DOING somthing? 3 million jobs down the drain since he TOOK office, many of them going to other countries. That's doing something? The national debt is over 7 trillion dollars, and he gives billions to people who don't need it. That's DOING something? What am I missing? |
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20 Apr 04 - 04:24 PM (#1166433) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST,Larry K It is a political eternity until November. Both sides should not get excited over any poll. In Spain, the polls changed 10 points in 2 days after the train attack. So relax- we haven't even had a debate yet. Jacqui C. What are you missing- He freed 50 million people, hit Al Queda hard either killing or capturing a good number of its leaders, removed Sadaam, and foiled numerous terrorist attack. (no US attacks since 9/11) ON the economy we currently have a 5.7% unemployment rate- lower than the 1970's, 1980's, and the same as 1996 when Clinton ran for 2nd term. The GNP has grown at 3.2% under Bush (as opposed to 3.3% under Clinton), and the stock market has come back. The US (people create jobs, not the goverment) has created 400,000 new jobs in the past 2 months and economic indicators are all up. It is very hard to justify how Clinton had the best economy in the past 50 years and Bush has the worst when their real economic numbers are very similar. In addition, Bush has cleaned up several corporate scandales with many leaders of Worldcom, Global Crossing, and even Enron in jail. The national debt is high but as a percentage of GNP it is very low when compared to a number of other administrations. (and probably lower than either of our personal debt) As far as giving money to people who don't need it- I got my tax refund and increased child tax credit and I need it. So did every other working american. My guess is that most of them needed it too. |
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20 Apr 04 - 04:30 PM (#1166439) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Ebbie Thanks, jacqui c. I can't imagine how anyone could possibly defend the bush's 'accomplishments'. But I agree that April is awfully early to make any kind of judgement of how it's going. In most previous campaigns, by April the dominant opposing candidate hasn't even been decided yet. (Remember the 'dark horse' concept? Wouldn't that be an amazing development?) |
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20 Apr 04 - 06:28 PM (#1166557) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST,gobsmacked!!! "It is very hard to justify how Clinton had the best economy in the past 50 years and Bush has the worst when their real economic numbers are very similar"....eh...what....Hello. hello Larry read your post agian. What are you on. Have you come down yet. Tell us what the Drug is. Is it something that Bush plans to put in the water before Elections.......Cause that is the wildest spin Ive read so far on these droaning, continual Bush for Pres instead of Res posts. The Moron is out in November...spin it whatever way you like, Lie, distort, defend it. The Man is a liability to this Country and his Henchman are Dangerous. Polls.....yeah right!!! load of numbers,,,,500 repuglicans today where asked.....JOKE! designed for consumpsion by the Gulliable and Delusional and pretent Political Intellects.., which of course just about covers most Bush supporters. May you continue to straighten up and get real. I'm a American Citzen and I do not approve Bush's Message! |
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20 Apr 04 - 06:36 PM (#1166564) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: freightdawg Larry, You are shouting in a vacuum. When people say, "What has Bush done" they are basically saying "I hate Bush and won't listen to anything you say anyway." I agree with much of what you said. The job loss everyone points to is linked to three basic events: 1) the passage of NAFTA (a Pres. Clinton accomplishment, and a mixed bag of blessings/curses) 2) the ebb and flow cycle of economics that was inevitable following the boom years of the 90's, and was already evident in the last months of Clinton's presidency, and 3) the huge hit of 9/11. However, your reach exceeded your grasp on a couple of points. One, Pres. Bush did not clean up the corporate scandals. They will be cleaned up, if they are cleaned up, without his help. He is the President, not the attorney general or district attorney in each state that has jurisdiction. Also, the resiliency of the American people is to thank for the returning economy. While the tax breaks have aided that considerably, the Federal Reserve policies have more to do with the overall economy than what one president says or does. When everything is said and done, the American presidency is a remarkably powerless position. He cannot "do" anything without congressional approval and judicial oversight. The founding fathers, sick of dictatorial monarchs, made it so. That is the true genius of the American system, at least as it was envisioned originally. As I have said before, and will say again, this country is bigger than Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy......all the way back to Washington. And it will be bigger than whoever is elected in November. Freightdawg |
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20 Apr 04 - 07:03 PM (#1166589) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST "As I have said before, and will say again, this country is bigger than Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy......all the way back to Washington. And it will be bigger than whoever is elected in November." Well put. It's the issues and policies we need to focus on. Planning for the future, cleaning up our messes of the past, learning from our mistakes. While I listened to today's Supreme Court arguments, I was reminded again of how important the long view is. One of the petitioners to the Court was the Japanese American man who sued the government for Japanese American internments during WWII and lost. Congress later issued an apology. There are so many much bigger, more important issues we need to be grappling with right now than Republican and Democrat presidential personality cults. |
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20 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM (#1166593) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: McGrath of Harlow Basically anyone who actually wants to be President of the USA cannot possibly be fit to do the job. |
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20 Apr 04 - 07:39 PM (#1166630) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST I saw a differnt poll that had people favoring Kerry 2:1 over Bush. It's all in what you want to believe. |
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20 Apr 04 - 07:47 PM (#1166638) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Bill D I hate polls...I detest polls...I despise polls....I loathe polls.. need I go on? Polls 'may' be useful for the candidate to make some decisions, but when spread around the news media, they do more influencing than informing. People just LOVE to jump on bandwagons and be part of the winning side, and the timing of certain polls, asked in the right way of the wrong group, can seriously distort what the true feelings of the general electorate are. Did I mention that I ABOMINATE polls? |
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20 Apr 04 - 11:51 PM (#1166778) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Once Famous The country I believe is very split down the middle. For what it's worth, there was a poll I heard about on the radio that said Nader had as much as 7% support. Total doom for Kerry. I am not a 100% Bush supporter. Some things yes, some things no. But I have yet to find much to get behind Kerry on. There are many moderates in this country. There are even some moderates on this forum full of extreme left winged ranters. Come on, Kerry. I'm waiting for you to tell me why America is going to be better with you. You have not convinced me yet. |
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21 Apr 04 - 02:14 AM (#1166831) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Mark Clark I heard the news on the polls but they didn't explain what questions were asked, they only explained their intrepretation of the results. As I recall, they indicated 50% "supported the president" compared to 46% support for Kerry. They called it even and said the difference was within the margin of error. The odd thing was that the same poll evidently indicated that a significant majority of those polled (60%?) felt the country is headed in the wrong direction! Perhaps "support for the president" doesn't necessarily translate into votes. As for an assessment of what Bush has done is concerned, I don't think it's fair to say that he's done nothing. He's done a great deal: The list goes on and on. To say Bush hasn't done anything is far from accurate. It's just that everything he does moves us in the wrong direction, makes us less safe, makes our economic outlook more dismal, removes prospects for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. - Mark |
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21 Apr 04 - 07:40 AM (#1166992) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST It is true the two are statistically in a dead heat in the polls. Bush at 48 and Kerry at 44 is a tie, and not any different than Kerry at 48 and Bush at 44. I find it interesting that after flooding the battleground states with $50 million in advertising, Bush/Cheney didn't seem to get much for their investors' money. It is also true that the points in the polls may not turn out to be equivalent to percent of the vote come November. I would hope that by the fall, when people start to pay attention to the race, that Bush looks so bad, that enough voters will be able to admit to themselves they made a mistake when they voted for him last time, and switch their votes. I find it amusing that people keep repeating the urban myth that Nader's voters will only come from the left. It is true that my vote for Nader will, but Nader's polling numbers right now show that he has maintained core support from 2000, and his new supporters are Republican defectors. But of course, it is easier to just keep mouthing the same old platitudes and cliches. "A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush" is the motto of Democrats not paying any attention to the facts of this election. Just as Mark points out above, there are plenty of things Bush has done as president--extremely negative and destructive things. Republicans who have lost faith in him are often committing sins of omission, just as disgruntled Democrats who are stuck with Kerry as their candidate are often committing sins of omission about their candidate. When I finally decided to vote for Nader, my heart began to sing with hope again, and my head stopped hurting when I thought about the presidential race. You folks should try it! Why vote for a candidate that depresses you? Why vote for a candidate that makes you say things like "He'll be better than Bush"? Now there is a damning indictment if I ever heard one. Attila the Hun would be better than Bush. |
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21 Apr 04 - 08:11 AM (#1167011) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: McGrath of Harlow "Do you support the president?" and "Will you vote for the incumbent in November?" are very very different questions. It would be perfectly possible, and perfectly consistent, to say "yes" to the first and "no" to the second. |
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21 Apr 04 - 08:36 AM (#1167027) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST It is also possible to find positive things that have occurred during the Bush administration at the behest of that administration. The State of the Oceans report that came out with it's findings this week is one of those things, and it was issued by a Bush appointed commission. No Child Left Behind isn't a bad bill in it's essence (and I say that as an educator). The problem is it's reliance on student testing, and the fact that Bush and other Republicans (all the way down to Republican governorships) are playing that tired old game of pass the bill and gut the funding. No Child Left Behind could have been a real milestone in US public education which desperately needs reform. The Congressional Democrats are just as guilty as the Republicans for making such a mess of it. The problems I'm having with the "Anybody But Bush" Democrats is they would have us throw out the baby with the bath water, and they aren't willing to leap on board anything that is positive coming out of Washington under this administration. Rather, they want to stick their heads in the sand, dig in their heels, and do even more damage by not cooperating with the positive things that happen in Washington, regardless of who is in the White House, and ignoring and doing nothing about the bad things happening. That is exactly what they accused the Republicans of doing during the Clinton administration, and they were right. But committing two wrongs, in this case, not only doesn't make a right, but it hurts the nation. |
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21 Apr 04 - 02:57 PM (#1167118) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Ebbie Guest, I agree that it is a start but it remains to be seen what develops from the commission's report on the oceanic situation. Their proposed remedies are costly- and this administration has a solid record of not funding what it gives lip service to. |
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21 Apr 04 - 03:10 PM (#1167136) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: jacqui.c I always have to laugh when the Bush supporters compare one loser to another. |
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21 Apr 04 - 04:12 PM (#1167207) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST,Larry K Gobsmacked: I reread my comments as you suggested. I also reread your comments three times to make sure I didn't miss anything. 1. I do not take drugs or alcohol. The only drug I am addicted to is truth. Gets me in trouble a lot, but I can live with it. 2. I was hoping to have an intelligent conversation. If I am wrong than I have no problem admitting it. Prove me wrong. 3. No where in your e-mail do you dispute any of my numbers. (5.7% unemployment rate, low inflation, low mortage, 3.2% rise in GNP, and rising stock market) The numbers are the numbers. I measure the economy by the employment rate, inflation rate, Mortage Rate, GNP growth, and stock market. If you have another way of measuring it please let me know. Comments like "I know someone who lost their job" or "I think the economy stinks" don't cut it with me. If you think this economy is terrible, than make your case. Going by the numbers themselves, the Bush economy is very similar to the Clinton economy, and better than the 70's, early 80's, and early 90's. 4. If memory serves me, we used to call this the "misery index" and it was developed by Jimmy Carter in his run against Ford. It came back to haunt him as we had a 17% mortgage rate, high inflation, high unemployment and stagnant GNP under Carter. 5. Most democrats are backing off the economy right now as all indicators are up. For the sake of the country I do hope the economy continues to improve. |
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21 Apr 04 - 05:27 PM (#1167280) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST,Shlio The trouble with measuring the economy by any factors is the lag time between causes and effect (several years?). The high national debt is also concerning. Isn't it entirely possible that jobs are being created due to the amount of spending? Also, economies do not shrink or grow at a continuous rate, but in cycles. If my economics is wrong, please set me right, as I was taught using the UK as a model, rather than the US. However, I think that using economic factors in the way you have, Larry K, is just as inaccurate and subject to change and interpretation, as polls are. |
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21 Apr 04 - 06:44 PM (#1167343) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST Ebbie, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just think it's important not to get so sucked into the presidential politics, that we think it is the only game in town, and the only thing that matters. The majority of work that gets done by the government isn't really effected by the Rich White Man in the Washington White House. The majority of the work the government does is carried on regardless of who is in power, and policies often don't change much at all from one presidential term to the next. It is true that the Commission's recommendations may not get funded. But this is a Bush appointed commission, and while their recommendations don't go nearly far enough considering the depth and breadth of the problems, and there is no commitment from the administration to fund it, the fact that they appointed the commission to study the problem is still more than Clinton did in two terms. I think we need to have enough objectivity to realize that nobody is 100% evil, and if we always paint the Bush/Cheney White House that way, we have become as bad as they are about a lot of the "axis of evil" sort of thinking that deeply disturbs so many of us. |
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21 Apr 04 - 07:10 PM (#1167373) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Bill D "Attila the Hun would be better than Bush." indeed! and Kerry would be better than Attila, so would Nader...slightly. But Nader is not going to be president. Our system does not currently make a 'protest vote' practical....you end up with the worst choice. (I happen to think Kerry is saying a lot of the right things at the moment, and is looking 'presidential'...Nader is simply not cut out to be the leader of the free world, and should do what he does best for his special causes, rather than assuring that we will have Bush for 4 more years) |
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21 Apr 04 - 07:15 PM (#1167377) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST You will get who you deserve......we got Blair. Learn from us!! Nottm UK |
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21 Apr 04 - 07:26 PM (#1167382) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Bobert Hey, look folks. Tne election is all but over and we're gonna get another four years of Bush. You heard it here first!!! See, elections aren't about electing the best candidate. They're about who has the most money to frame ads to collect the swing vote and in 2002 elections, from dog cathers to Congress, 90% of tha candidtates who spent the most money won!!! Sad, but true... But, hey, if I were the Dems I wouldn't be excited about winning only to find that they have inherited Bush's messes. Everywhetre you look, he screwed stuff up and it's not fair for him to be able to duck the consequences... That's why I have flip flopped and leaning way toward Nadar.... Bobert |
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21 Apr 04 - 10:50 PM (#1167522) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Ebbie "Everywhetre you look, he (bush) screwed stuff up and it's not fair for him to be able to duck the consequences... " The trouble with that statement, bobert, is that it is not HE who would be living with the consequences- it's US. He is a human being who is seriously lacking in some essential elements- so if the whole shebang blows up in his face, he won't even know it, or most certainly will not acknowledge his role in it if he does. The rest of us - and our children and their children coming behind them - are the ones who will have to try to fix it. Better sooner than later. World conditions will only get worse, if he has another four years. Let's get him out- and then we can discuss remedies. This man and his cronies are still in the wrecking, not the fixing, mode. |
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21 Apr 04 - 10:54 PM (#1167530) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST But voting Bush/Cheney out won't get rid of the evil that has taken over the US political system. And therein lies the problem of being so "Anybody But Bush" shortsighted. Even if Kerry can beat Bush, which I doubt, you aren't going to get rid of the bag men behind Bush OR Kerry. And Kerry has bag men too, don't forget. |
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21 Apr 04 - 11:01 PM (#1167536) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Bobert Exactly, GUEST... This ain't got one danged thing with Bush or Kerry but the folks who will have their hands out after the election... Kerry has allready signaled that he isn't up to providin' any alternatives... Might as well let Bush run the country further into the ditch.. Think '08 here.... Sorry, I really am.... Bobert |
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21 Apr 04 - 11:07 PM (#1167542) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST Yeah, and then the DLC will blame Nader AGAIN, and say that Kerry lost because he wasn't right wing and fascist enough. |
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21 Apr 04 - 11:09 PM (#1167543) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST And besides, if the Republicrats want to win the White House so bad, why the hell can't they field an electable candidate instead of yet another Beltway Boy? |
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21 Apr 04 - 11:09 PM (#1167544) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: dianavan As to the upturn in the economy - war is actually good for the economy. As to the U.S. election - Bush/Kerry? Whats the difference? With Kerry's record, what makes you think anything will change? If you truly want change, vote for Nader. If Bush wins - at least you tried and your conscience will be clear. |
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21 Apr 04 - 11:12 PM (#1167547) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST And we'll be making forward strides for the future of third party viability for progressives. BTW, the happy news is Nader filed today for federal matching funds! Rock on. |
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21 Apr 04 - 11:14 PM (#1167549) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Bobert Heck, if I chooze Nadar over Devil A or Devil B, I've at least voted my consience... without deals... Bobert |
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21 Apr 04 - 11:18 PM (#1167551) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST And it will really cheer you up Bobert. Once you leave that Death Valley, your whole perspective brightens up. Because you don't think in those dire short term ways anymore, and actually look to the future as something that has meaning and hope, instead of desperation and despair. There are many worse things in life you could do than thumb your nose at the Republicrats and vote your conscience. I say, go for it, and don't look back--look forward. |
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22 Apr 04 - 12:04 AM (#1167576) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Amos I think it is a seriosu error to try to paint Kerrty witht he same brush as Bush. There are important differences between them. Kerry does not lie through his teeth obsessively. He is not craven. He does not have Rove, Cheney and Wolfowitz in tow. He does NOT believe, from what he is said, that the Patriot act should be renewed, but rewritten from the ground up. He didn't run away from war, but he knows better than to puruse it mindlessly. Believe me, in this case Devil B is a better choice. A |
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22 Apr 04 - 02:44 AM (#1167631) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Ebbie Cynicism born from despair- I understand it, bobert, but acting upon it is NOT the way to change things. As Amos said, there are distinct differences between the two- for that matter, I don't imagine there are many people around as blinkered and incurious and shortsighted and egocentric and just plain dumb as our illustrious leader. Give Kerry a chance- and that means getting him in there. |
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22 Apr 04 - 03:32 AM (#1167650) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: jacqui.c Kendall here...the unemployment figure only shows those who are LOOKING for work, not the ones who have given up. Look, we have lost 3 million jobs in the last three years. Where did they go? Bush claims to have created 400 thousand. Hardly a significant number. Furthermore, he and his geniuses have come up with a way to make manufacturng jobs appear by declaring that people who work at McDonald's putting sandwiches together are "Manufacturers". Smoke and mirrors folks, plain and simple, just like the ones who think this lying phony coward is a leader. |
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22 Apr 04 - 07:54 AM (#1167797) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST People who are third party independent voters are not cynical. We are true believers in our own causes, and the issues that matter to us. Why can't you two party nazis get that through your heads? I mean, you all are acting like we are doing something heinous by choosing to vote for the candidate we feel best represents our interests. What's so democratic about that? I am going to vote for Nader and the Green candidates on my ticket not because I am cynical, but because it gives me tremendous hope for the future. When I think of voting for Kerry because Republicrats say I should to get rid of Bush, I get depressed and cynical. Politics shouldn't be about disempowerment, or waiting until next year for democracy to take hold again in the Democratic party. That is what Bush is telling the Iraqis to do--just what for democracy, it will come. No thanks. I'll exercise my democratic rights now, not later, after another do nothing Republicrat who supports the war I marched and organized against for the last three years, finishes bombing Iraq and Afghanistan back to the stone age. |
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22 Apr 04 - 09:05 AM (#1167868) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Strick "Kendall here...the unemployment figure only shows those who are LOOKING for work, not the ones who have given up. Look, we have lost 3 million jobs in the last three years. Where did they go?" According to the Bureau of Labor statistics, even people who aren't actively seeking work through the system are counted via statistical sampling. The net loss was 2.2 million as 800K new jobs were created during the same period. It is very clear that the majority of those 2.2 million were jobs created out of the tech bubble and what a bubble giveth the burst taketh away (you should see how the numbers start to dip right after the market crashed in mid-2000). What's important isn't the absolute numbers so far, but the overall trend and they're going to be going up for the forseeable future. No, I'm not repeating Republican dogma, I have a degree in economics and I'm reading the real underlying numbers, not any party's spin. |
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22 Apr 04 - 10:15 AM (#1167925) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: Amos Nameless, fruitless and aimless Guest, Of course you must do what seems right. If it improves the chances of placing Bush back in the Oval Office in 2004, then you just have ot live with that consequence. The rationalization that you are aiming where you want to go will not serve -- as any sailor knows -- if you are trying to go dea dintot he wind. A |
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22 Apr 04 - 10:27 AM (#1167943) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: el ted Boring. |
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22 Apr 04 - 10:35 AM (#1167967) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST Actually Amos, that psychology doesn't work on me. I understand that it does work for Republicrats who think the worst thing that could happen on this planet is living with another 4 years of Bush. I happen to believe in the resilience of the American people. Once they get beat down far enough, they will rise up, and make change. But it may take some years of Republican rule, and a majority Republican appointed Supreme Court, to wake the American electorate up to what is happening and saying they won't take it anymore. That means I believe in letting the democratic process work itself out. If that means I never see another Democratic president in my life time, then that is what it means. I see no paradigm shift in the Democratic party as a result of their losing control of Congress and the White House, and the Supreme Court intervention in the 2000 election. I think it will take at least four more years of Bush to wake up the Democratic party and the American electorate. It is a risk I am willing to take, because I am committed to democratic principles, and to working for change outside the two party system, which is what I have done my entire adult life. Obviously, voting for Nader isn't a risk you are willing to take, and that is fine. But there is no need for us to demonize one another because we disagree. Demonizing Nader supporters is a tried and true Republicrat establishment tactic to try and scare people into supporting the presumed nominee. If the presumed nominee became president, he would do nothing to end the graft and corruption ruling the nation. Nothing. He is an extreme militarist, and every bit as dangerous as Bush in that regard. He is certainly no civil libertarian. |
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22 Apr 04 - 10:50 AM (#1167985) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: el ted Nope, still boring. |
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22 Apr 04 - 11:01 AM (#1168006) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST Don't worry el ted, it was meant to entertain you, so you being bored is of no concern to me. And if it bores you, it's up to you to put some zing in your life, not posters in an internet chat forum. |
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22 Apr 04 - 11:09 AM (#1168015) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: el ted Still bored. |
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22 Apr 04 - 02:14 PM (#1168218) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST Your problem. Though I must say, you appear to be a slow learner. |
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23 Apr 04 - 03:53 AM (#1168707) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: jacqui.c Still bored? What can we do to make your declining years more entertaining? |
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24 Apr 04 - 01:59 AM (#1169509) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: dianavan el ted - boring people are usually bored. What are your interests? Start a thread of your own if you have any creativity at all. Then we'll see who's boring! |
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24 Apr 04 - 10:53 AM (#1169702) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: M.Ted For those who think that Bush is somehow recovering his popularity, check this report from the folks at the Pew Research Institute: Public Support for War is Steady, But Bush Job Ratings Slip After Falluja Released: April 5, 2004 Navigate this report Summary of Findings About the Survey Questionnaire Summary of Findings Public support for war in Iraq has been unaffected by the murders and desecration of the corpses of American citizens in Falluja. However, continued turmoil and violence in Iraq may be taking a toll on President Bush's approval ratings. More Americans now disapprove of the way he is doing his job than approve, though by only a slight margin (47% disapprove vs. 43% approve). Just four-in-ten approve of the way Bush is handling the situation in Iraq, his lowest rating ever and down from 59% in January. Bush's evaluations on other issues – the economy, energy and even terrorism – have fallen as well. And by a wide margin (57% to 32%) the public does not think he has a clear plan for bringing the situation in Iraq to a successful conclusion. Nonetheless, nearly six-in-ten Americans (57%) continue to believe that the United States made the right decision in using military force against Iraq, which is unchanged from a mid-March Pew survey. However, public attitudes toward most aspects of the U.S. mission in Iraq have turned more negative since January, in the aftermath of the capture of Saddam Hussein. Just 50% of Americans favor keeping troops in Iraq until a stable government is established there, while 44% support bringing the troops home as soon as possible. In January, the public by nearly two-to-one favored maintaining U.S. troops in Iraq until a stable government is formed (63%-32%). |
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24 Apr 04 - 11:00 AM (#1169708) Subject: RE: BS: Bush pulls ahead of Kerry in latest poll From: GUEST Thanks for that information MTed. I too have read that same report, as the Pew polls are really the only ones I put faith in. Although I suppose that makes me a poisoned partisan. Yes, I am aware that 44% of Americans support bringing home the troops as soon as possible. I am one of the Americans who favors that exit strategy. Which is why I'm not voting for George Bush or John Kerry in November. Neither of them have proposed a phased withdrawal of troops timeline as their policy for Iraq. Nader has. That's why I'm voting for Nader. |