BS: Are there really Angels?

21 May 04 - 04:05 AM (#1190527)
Subject: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

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Whilst reading a magazine yesterday, I came across an article in which several people claimed to have either been saved from certain death by and Angel....or had witnessed the phenomenom but with others being saved from death. Has anyone any personal experience which would bear out their existence or any knowledge on the subject, which I admit has a fascination for me.

If answering this message on the thread compromises you in any way them please feel free to anser via Personal message in strict confidence. Thank you and Be Blessed.

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21 May 04 - 04:08 AM (#1190530)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: el ted

I have personal experience of Angel Delight. Tesco's sell it.

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21 May 04 - 04:45 AM (#1190548)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Dave Bryant

Don't know about Angels, but from some of the postings on the Hull threads, there's definitely some fairies around.

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21 May 04 - 04:47 AM (#1190549)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Partridge

I believe in Angels.

Pat xx

click here

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21 May 04 - 04:52 AM (#1190552)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Jeanie

I say yes, there really are, and from my experience they don't have to be wearing white robes or have wings, either. They can look like you and me. In fact, on a purely earthly, practical level, we all of us have the potential to be angels to each other every day. On other levels of experience and awareness, I have come to realize that there is a tremendous amount of helping and guiding going on, too, behind the scenes.

One of the best books I have come across to explore angels is this one: "Angels - True stories of how they touch our lives" by Hope Price, publ. Pan Books ISBN 0 330 32850 6. The chapters include: "Angels - the facts"; "Angels on the roads"; "The Angel Experiences of Children"; "Angels in Human Form"; "Traditional Angels"; "Unseen Angels"; "Angels in the First World War - The Angels of Mons and the White Cavalry".

*   *   *   *   *   * *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   * *

"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels - unawares."

* *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

- jeanie

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21 May 04 - 04:52 AM (#1190553)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Dave Hanson

Hells angels ?

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21 May 04 - 06:14 AM (#1190592)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Jeannie. Thanks for the references and Eric...had you read the first posting you would perhaps have realised what I am really after.....Be Blessed!

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21 May 04 - 06:44 AM (#1190611)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST

Angels??!! You must be mental.

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21 May 04 - 07:09 AM (#1190621)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: George Papavgeris

While you, GUEST, of course have your feet firmly on the ground. Like a rock. Or a boulder. Or something exciting like that. Must be nice.

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21 May 04 - 07:16 AM (#1190623)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,shycat

I was brought up agnostic, and never believed in angels. But.....


(you knew there was a but) one day, after certain circumstances, and without any visualisation or projection on my part, as I walked away from a visit with a particular person, I sensed that two huge, long, white angels wings were hovering, one on each side of me as I walked. I walked for about ten minutes to the train station, and sat on the seat waiting for the train, the two wings still protecting me all the way. When the train came, and I got in, they were no longer there. It was a wonderful, peaceful experience of love and protection, if I could make it happen by imagination or whatever, I would, but it has never happened again. That was about 15 years ago, and I still treasure the experience.

so yes, I believe in angels.

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21 May 04 - 07:51 AM (#1190638)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Sooz(at work)

I am one - but only part-time!

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21 May 04 - 08:31 AM (#1190663)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: *daylia*

Wanna test it out for yourself, Georgiansilver?

Try this -- ask the angels for help today, preferably with something that involves assisting someone else (your family, a sick friend etc). Ask out loud, even write the request down - and ask most sincerely, with as much emotion as you can muster up. Then thank them in advance for helping you (that's really important!) and go about your day as usual. Watch, listen, observe ... and see what happens!

daylia

PS if you're not sure which angel to ask, try Michael. "He" just LOVES cleaning things up! ANd when you do see results, make sure you thank them again - even do a good turn for someone else to demonstrate that your gratitude is genuine.

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21 May 04 - 08:36 AM (#1190666)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

SHycat:

An interesting experience -- but what do you think it was about?

A

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21 May 04 - 08:37 AM (#1190669)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,MMario

yes - there are angels. If there aren't then I want to know who's been leaving dance footprints all over the heads of my pins!

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21 May 04 - 08:44 AM (#1190674)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,shycat

Amos

I had been through a particularly difficult time, some events which were distressing and which had an impact for a few years. This was just before the beginning of the end of those times, just before things got better.

It felt like comfort, like something or someone letting me know that they were there offering help. It was an extremely calming, peaceful experience.

shycat

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21 May 04 - 10:33 AM (#1190742)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D

I was gonna pen one of my usual sceptical responses, but MMario's note has made me rethink it! Nothing like good, hard evidence to convince the naysayers!

(were they clogging or waltzing, Mario?)

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21 May 04 - 10:36 AM (#1190745)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,MMario

Old Style English Country Dance I believe.

Seriously - I believe in Angels in approximately the way I believe in Santa Clause - that the image is a personification of a spirit that indwells within people.

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21 May 04 - 11:00 AM (#1190772)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D

yes...only I, of course, would phrase it differently. We process stress and hope differently, and for some, that imagery helps frame feelings.

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21 May 04 - 11:14 AM (#1190782)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: mack/misophist

Each person believes what they want to believe. Each defines the undefinable in terms that make sense to them. For an example, check Arthur Machen and the Angels of Mons.

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21 May 04 - 11:20 AM (#1190788)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Kim C

I believe there are benevolent entities watching over us. If that's Angels, then so be it.

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21 May 04 - 11:41 AM (#1190799)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ellenpoly

When Kendall came to London, we went to the British Museum, and outside I told him that I had seen what I thought was an angel standing in the exact place I was then standing.

It had happened last summer while I was sitting outside the Museum eating my lunch. I noticed a man standing and staring up at the sun with a look of pure bliss on his face. I was taken with how happy he seemed to be, and when I glanced away for, I swear, no more than a split second, and then looked back, he was gone.

After searching the whole area to be sure he wasn't somewhere in the vacinity, I came to this conclusion...

He was an angel...on holiday.

..xx..e

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21 May 04 - 11:56 AM (#1190809)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Blackcatter

The Angels currently have the best record in the Majors.

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21 May 04 - 12:10 PM (#1190822)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST

there is no such thing, you bunch of blithering half wits. Get real will you?

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21 May 04 - 12:11 PM (#1190825)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ellenpoly

No worries, GUEST...you won't be seeing any..xx..e

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21 May 04 - 12:14 PM (#1190832)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,MMario

or possible only DARK ones...

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21 May 04 - 12:25 PM (#1190853)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

The problem with borrowing words already heavily freighted up by other practices is the freight comes along with them and confuses the communication. If the question refers to the hierarchical powers attributed to the Cosmic Organization Chart flowing downhill from some patriarchal Founder, in multiple ranks of various degrees of privelege and importance, from arch- down to cherubim and seraphim, I'd have to say the imagery makes about as much sense as Shrek. SUre you can impose sense onto it, buty it is inherently detached from reality.

If, on the other hand, you want to use a more general and less cluttered definition such as "beings generating benevolent thoughts toward humans while not operating a body themselves" I suppose it is perfectly possible.

I am always a little suspicious of beings who "can't" run a body, but I suppose there are those who could if they chose to and are having more fun operating without. At least, it's a possibility.

A

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21 May 04 - 12:27 PM (#1190858)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

Yes, there are.

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21 May 04 - 12:27 PM (#1190859)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,MMario

Amos - are you saying Shrek doesn't make sense? I felt it made much more sense then the general run of animated movies.

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21 May 04 - 12:27 PM (#1190860)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ellenpoly

Ah, Amos! Once I translate what you write into layman's terms, it's always worth reading again!..xx..e

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21 May 04 - 12:29 PM (#1190863)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Kim C

I believe in ogres, too. I've encountered some on this forum.

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21 May 04 - 12:37 PM (#1190873)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

"Shrek" makes sense because you add sense onto it. If you tried to relate it to reality, you would go adrift quickly, looking for talking donkeys, people with green skin, big-hearted ogres, and so on. Mythology doesn't work backwards that way. It works from within outwards. That doesn't mean Shrek doesn't communicate, because it is good (or at least acceptable) mythology. Meaning people find it an easy vehicle to add their meanings onto. That is also what makes it better than other animated films. But you won't really find green ogre princesses, or talking clown-fish either.

It pays to recognize which is the territory, which is the map, and which is just the myth about both.

A

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21 May 04 - 12:38 PM (#1190876)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Kim C

Since when do donkeys not talk? Just because they speak a different language doesn't mean they don't communicate. ;-)

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21 May 04 - 12:50 PM (#1190887)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

I didn't say donkeys don't communicate. They don't talk in the human way, as depicted in Shrek. That's what I mean about projecting human meanings. Sure, donkeys communicate. Most sentient organisms do. So we can create myths about them talking out loud in English, French, Polish, Armenian, or what-have-you.(Grimm's Fairy Tales is full of talking frogs and birds and such).

But they don't.

A

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21 May 04 - 01:11 PM (#1190906)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,MMario

Amos - my entire world-view is wobbling here. You've yanked away all my little secuity blankets and revealed the world as a harsh hard cruel place.

Please please PLEASE don't talk to me about the Easter Beagle!

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21 May 04 - 01:14 PM (#1190910)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Kim C

Are you absolutely sure? ;-)

(yes, I'm feeling a little punchy today!)

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21 May 04 - 01:30 PM (#1190917)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Blackcatter

Easter Beagle - ah, the world according to Charlie Brown.

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21 May 04 - 01:35 PM (#1190920)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Are there really Angels? Yes. Unquestionably. I don't expect my opinion on the matter will convince anyone, though, and it doesn't actually matter one way or another if it does.

They aren't restricted to any particular religious tradition, but predate those traditions. The various religions have attempted to describe them in whatever terms made sense to the people at the time.

There are probably also various physical beings that have been mistaken for Angels from time to time, but that's another matter entirely.

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21 May 04 - 01:48 PM (#1190927)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

Knew I could count on you for the authoiotative assertion, there, LH!! Yeehaw and Hoorah!

A

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21 May 04 - 03:33 PM (#1190985)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Hawker

Yes, Georgiansilver, there are angels.
Like Litte Hawk said they predate religion.
Like most things that are unclear, it is very hard to grasp understanding of something unless you have had personal experience!
Perhaps we could all experiment..... especially the sceptics..... sit in a quiet room, or listen to gentle music, relax and in the inner quiet, ask the angels to show you a sign, rather like daylia suggested ..... I am sure some will see wombles, father christmas and the clangers, but for those who do it genuinely, we may hear some interesting tales? Go on....... have a go before you knock it completely!
Peace and harmony to you all whetehr you know the angels or not!
Cheers, Lucy

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21 May 04 - 03:35 PM (#1190988)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,amergin

I'm an angel...I got the halo to prove it...

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21 May 04 - 04:04 PM (#1191003)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: TheBigPinkLad

Like Litte Hawk said they predate religion.

It must be Friday.

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21 May 04 - 07:31 PM (#1191143)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

I am trying to figure out what you mean by angels "predate religion" because if, as it is asserted...God created everything and God is the centre of religion(Or preferably Christianity) then Angels cannot possibly pre-date God....consequently, they cannot predate religion.
Perhaps you know something I don't and if so please emlighten me. Be Blessed..

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21 May 04 - 08:22 PM (#1191180)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Sure thing. "God" is a name that many of us give to whatever it is that created everything...and/or runs everything...etc. We got that name (whether it be "God", "Allah", "Vishnu", "Wakan Tanka", "Yahweh", etc...) from a religious tradition that was handed down to us by our ancestors. In the list of such traditions, Christianity is a pretty recent one (only 2,000 years old). The Muslim faith is even younger, and the Bahai faith is younger yet. The Jewish faith and the Buddhist faith are far older. So is the Hindu faith.

Religions are organized forms of thought, belief, and practice which have been brought into being by human beings...as they react to the powerful mysteries of life and death that they are confronted with...and as they react to powerful spiritual teachers like Buddha, Christ, or Mohammed.

The original cause of all this obviously existed long before the religions did. Religions are a human reaction to an existing situation that rests on a foundation more ancient than human life itself.

Since I think that Angels are spiritual beings that have existed since the beginning of this Universe (as we know it), and since I think that religions didn't come into being until much, much later...therefore both Angels and God existed prior to humanly established religions.

(Or they didn't...if you refuse to believe in anything other-worldly like that.) :-)

I'll tell you this. The Planet Earth existed a long time before any religions did, and so did whatever created the planet Earth, the Sun, etc...whether you choose to give that orginal cause the name "God" or not.

It doesn't matter what you call it. It was around before religions and it will still be around after them too.

A religion is a human attempt to define God (or reality) and relate to that definition of God in a positive way. A religion is a spiritually oriented philosophy, usually accompanied by a set of rules or suggestions regarding moral and practical conduct.

Some religions are more topheavy with rules than others, however. This usually has a lot to say about how fearful the adherents of the religion are. More fear...more rules, and stricter rules.

The completely fearless know no rules at all, and yet are exemplary in their conduct, because bad conduct normally arises out of fear.

You see, you don't need rules to keep an enlightened being in line. :-) But you do need rules to keep a fearful, ignorant savage in line...and an effective means of enforcing those rules too.

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21 May 04 - 08:35 PM (#1191191)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo

Hm...being Christian I go with God and angels having been there from the beginning because I believe God has always existed and was not 'created' by organized religion...but I am mindful that there are folks here who have different beliefs and this is quite all right. :OD

I don't believe in the traditional idea of winged babies or winged anything and I do not believe in the traditional hierarchy of angels either. Personally I think angels really need no wings.

I believe they can be spirits with no physical bodies or translated human beings (such as Enoch and Elijah and James the Beloved was it? please feel free to correct me anyone if I'm wrong I'm weak on biblical knowledge unfortunately) and I believe there are angels of light and angels of darkness.

I classify loved ones who have passed on to the next world as angels and I believe as permitted they can visit family members still living, either in dreams or very rarely appear to someone but I always believe they do so for a distinct purpose. I believe that the presence of angels can be felt at times depending on how spirtually receptive one is at any particular time. I believe their presence is most strongly felt however in holy places. I believe in guardian angels.

I believe angels are powerful and awe-inspiring beings much more so than they way they are traditionally portrayed in popular culture. I believe they serve God but they are not a separate species...they are also his children as we mortals are.

Anyways...that's what I believe pertaining to angels :)

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21 May 04 - 08:38 PM (#1191195)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

Religion is a map, while God is the territory. Just as the rolling hills of North Dakota existed for aeons before Shell Oil printed a map of the area, so with God.

Pretty simple.


A

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21 May 04 - 10:39 PM (#1191252)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D

"Religion is a map..." a good metaphor for the process!
At least we can compare maps of N. Dakota with satellite photos and topographic surveys...

There are VERY intricate, detailed maps drawn of totally imaginary places. Some of these maps have been represented as 'real', and folks have gone off hunting for the places described. Debate still rages about whether Atlantis is/was 'real'...Not much news since Plato.

Gods and Angels are even tougher to pin down.

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21 May 04 - 11:01 PM (#1191261)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Beautiful analogy, Amos!

No one can draw a map of your soul, Bill, or of your personal experiences in love and consciousness. Nevertheless, they are real.

What religion is really about, if practiced sincerely, is the refinement of consciousness and moral values. If practiced insincerely, it's about keeping up appearances and working one's way to the top of the social pecking order.

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21 May 04 - 11:19 PM (#1191268)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie

A 19-year-old man went over a cliff at the Oregon coast in his pickup. The truck was demolished but he was unhurt except for a small cut on his forehead. He claimed that when he went through the window he was caught by an angel. He said he saw the arms.

The 16-year-old daughter of a friend of mine overturned the family car on a narrow, twisting road and was unhurt. She told her mother that an angel held up the car enough for her to climb out from under it.

I think, in addition, that sometimes we perform the role of angel for each other, maybe in response to an invisible nudge. On May 3, a couple of weeks ago, I chose carefully the early morning city bus I would have to catch to get to the university about 15 miles from here to keep a commitment I had made. The bus didn't come. When I checked the bus schedule I found that half-hour bus service doesn't begin until after 8:00. Which meant that I wouldn't get there until after 9:00 and I was supposed to be there at 8:30.

For about two minutes - not more - I asked myself what I was going to do. Take a taxi? Expensive. Call a neighbor? But she didn't get up until after 8:00.

Then an unfamiliar pickup truck swooped to the curb and a friend I hadn't seen for more than 6 months - he lives in the Valley - called out, Where you headed? I said, To the University! He said, Hop in. I'll take you there.

We got there in time to have a cup of coffee before my meeting.

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22 May 04 - 04:35 AM (#1191389)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Strollin' Johnny

Coincidence Ebbie, not an angel? :0)

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22 May 04 - 09:02 AM (#1191452)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Thank you for the comments and references folks...I appreciate your efforts. Be Blessed.

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22 May 04 - 10:35 AM (#1191469)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Coincidence is a term given to circumstances for which one is unable to provide another explanation. That doesn't mean that there isn't another explanation. All events have causes. When the cause is unknown we call it luck or coincidence.

The fact that we don't already know everything should not be all that surprising, but it seems to really bother some people. :-)

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22 May 04 - 11:29 AM (#1191490)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Strollin' Johnny

In fact, LH, coincidence is simply a term given to two or more events which happen at the same time - 'Co' = at the same time, 'incidence' = happening. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not mean 'unexplained circumstances' or 'having some mystical or spiritual significance' - the word for those two is 'mysterious', not 'coincidence', check your dictionary.

The number of events taking place on Earth is so huge as to be incalculable, it's a mathematical and chronological inevitability that some will occur coincidentally. Nothing whatsoever to do with explanations or lack of same. Or even Angels. :0)

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22 May 04 - 11:35 AM (#1191493)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

I seldom argue about religious beliefs--my own or those of others--because it's a personal thing to people. 'For instance' is not proof. And maybe therein is the beauty: I don't need proof for my beliefs. That may make me short-sighted in the view of some folks, but that doesn't matter to me.

I was nine when I died on an operating table. My recollection is of a bright, pure-white light, and of traveling along the light very, very fast. I felt a 'presence' or 'nearness' to something. I don't know what it was, but I felt it was good. My mother determined later with the doctor that I had been given too much gas, and the crew doing the operation worked real hard to get me back here. Truthfully, I was happy where I was, where ever THAT was.

Anecdotes don't prove anything to anyone. But then, I am not trying to prove anything to anyone. It happened, and I know it. That works for me.

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22 May 04 - 11:36 AM (#1191494)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie

The interesting thing, Strollin' Johnny, is that when one gets to the place of relying on 'coincidence', it happens much mure frequently. I have a lot of experience with coincidence.

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22 May 04 - 11:42 AM (#1191496)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Strollin' Johnny

Jeez Ebbie, how can anyone possibly rely on coincidence? It's very unpredictability makes it unreliable! :0)

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22 May 04 - 11:45 AM (#1191498)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

But if we know it's unreliable, then we know we can count on that. If you can count on it, it ain't unreliable.

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22 May 04 - 12:06 PM (#1191508)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D

as to folks being saved by angels from cars going over cliffs..etc...

I read regularly about folks who were NOT so lucky...or about one survivor of a plane crash where 127 did NOT survive. You see my point... Are there only a few angels who work miracles? Are there only a few folks worthy? Do angels work on their own, or does God send instructions? Theological questions abound!

The guardian angel system seems awfully capricious and random. You'll excuse me, I hope, if I just shrug and allow as how I'd better just watch my driving, as I doubt I can "rely on coincidence" OR angels....

But-- I realize my sceptical ramblings are not likely to change any minds of those who take comforts from the stories or have personal 'experiences' of inexplicible "luck". We are all wired differently.

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22 May 04 - 12:41 PM (#1191530)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

Coincidence, really, is kind of a meaningless word -- it simply means two events are co-temporal and says nothing about connection between them. I would hazard a guess that any two events that involve the same people (as in the examples above) have more connection that the term allows.

A

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22 May 04 - 01:23 PM (#1191549)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie

Bill D, I gave those two examples only as two that I myself was told. I didn't particularly like the young man- I thought he was closed minded, pretty full of himself and somewhat arrogant. (One time I heard him telling someone about a parade he had seen on television the night before. He said, I couldn't believe it- they were carrying Satan's signs! I said, Jeff, I saw that parade too. That had nothing to do with Satan- those signs were 'NO NUKE' signs. He said, Oh, "Ebbie", don't be naive.)

The girl who wrecked her car is the daughter of a dear friend of mine.

As for relying on 'coincidence', that's my whole point. It is not coincidental at all, except in happening at the same time, if you're talking about it being meaningless. My experience has taught me that when one focuses on a need, the need gets answered. How or by whom, I don't know.

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22 May 04 - 01:45 PM (#1191559)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

I think, Bill D, that many people accept the notion of angels because the circumstances are such that someone should have been killed, but wasn't. However, as you say, one should tend to one's driving also. I have been 'saved' on a number of occasions, but I wouldn't expect anyone to understand that I feel the difference between the hand of 'luck' and the intervention of 'something else'. A few occasions were luck, because I didn't feel the 'something else'.

I do see your point, and I can't reasonably expect you to see mine. In the words of the old hippie that I am, that's cool.

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22 May 04 - 02:44 PM (#1191596)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

I submit that a large measure of so-called "angelic" intercession is actually the actuation of one's own greater abilities long abandoned, made possible briefly because of necessity or a lowering of the guard.

A

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22 May 04 - 02:52 PM (#1191600)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

Yep, that too.

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22 May 04 - 02:56 PM (#1191605)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Dying isn't so bad. Why consider that those who died weren't also "helped" by some Angel? We may all be helped by Angels, but in different ways, that's all, according to our various needs and purposes. I expect to die some day, and I expect it will happen at the right time. All well and good. Dying will allow me to trade in this old body on a whole new adventure and a new way of being. How can that be bad?

And as far as I'm concerned there are no coincidences whatsoever. Not one. It's a mythological notion based on inadequate information when people say that something is a coincidence.

What there is, though, is this: free will. With it you can shape your next set of "coincidences" if you choose to. That means you are in control.

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22 May 04 - 03:15 PM (#1191617)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D

"Why consider that those who died weren't also "helped" by some Angel?"

...ummm....right....when you get to the next life, please ask them if they appreciated that particular brand of 'help', when they thought they were on the way to their son's wedding--etc...

Besides, I remember this old beer commercial which said. "You only go around once, so grab for all the Gusto you can get.." (Coors, I think..*grin*)...I know that they wouldn't mislead me, so I have always assumed that I DON'T get another body and a new way of being...Still, dying isn't so bad, as you say...if you have done your best with this life.

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22 May 04 - 04:05 PM (#1191647)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

That is predicated on the assumption that folks will mind being dead. It don't look too attractive from THIS side of things, but who knows about how it will look fom the OTHER side of things. And Bill, don't take away all hope for me. I NEED a new body.

---

22 May 04 - 04:30 PM (#1191663)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

Wal, Bill, ya gotta consider the source, eff'n ya see what I mean. It probably isn't good sense to get your spiritual guidance from some wrinkled ole pree-vert who plays with choirboys, but mebbe getting them from a beer company is a notch futhah south, eh??

Brucie: you shall have one, too, when the time is roight.

A

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22 May 04 - 04:33 PM (#1191665)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Having studied some of your references given and found other references on line...I have to conclude that Angels really do exist although it becomes obvious that certain people don't recognise them as angels. Be Blessed.

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22 May 04 - 04:35 PM (#1191666)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

God, I have a sick joke for that one, Amos.

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22 May 04 - 04:39 PM (#1191668)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo

hmmm...well Bill D to add my thoughts on that :)

I believe people's poor choices can also affect the length of another's life and that all lives are part of a greater pattern that we on the earth simply cannot comprehend at the moment. This is part of the human experience. We make choices and there are natural consequences for those choices that are integrated into this pattern because there must be balance in all things. Partly Fate and partly Free Will, that is what it is to be mortal.

I don't think those who are saved by angels are necessarily more worthy than anyone else but perhaps there is some reason why they are still alive. I think too those who died unexpectedly were not necessarily abandoned by angels or God either. Someone has to be there for the transition into the next life because so many times in this cruel world, people die alone and forgotten.

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22 May 04 - 05:33 PM (#1191699)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Amen Pogo

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22 May 04 - 07:29 PM (#1191744)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill

If, when we die, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, then, doesn't there have to be something perceiving that nothing? otherwise, there is no nothing.

I have experienced being outside my body, while still being conscious and perceiving. at the time my body was limp and non functioning, and i was outside it, alive, free, joyful and remarkably detached from my own personality and identity.

---

22 May 04 - 10:55 PM (#1191817)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D

"... doesn't there have to be something perceiving that nothing?"

nope--unless you use an already anthromorphic definition of "nothing"...like 'the absence of something which used to be here'...

***NOTHING***, tightly defined, is just that--nothing! How could something be observing 'nothing' without being aware of itself, and thus.....well, you get the idea.

In the introduction to Husserl's Phenomenology, he notes that the logically primary philosophical question is "Why is there something rather than nothing?" It is US who ask questions about what kinds of 'something' there can be, and there seems to a common perception that if something is named linguistically, it must exist.

It is a most interesting trick of self-aware, concious beings that they can weave semantic patterns about 'entities' that they have never seen and can't even explain how they might exist.

Read "The Urantia Book" or "Ohaspe" sometime, and be inundated with multiple levels of ethereal, cosmic nomenclature about stuff which relies on patterns of words, rather than real concepts, to create its spell.....

..."Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to perceive"
                  Bill D. 2004 (sorry, Sir Walter)

---

23 May 04 - 01:23 AM (#1191853)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Strollin' Johnny

Ebbie me lass, "It is not coincidental at all, except in happening at the same time" - what other meaning of 'coincidence' is there other than 'happening at the same time'? That's the precise meaning of the word!

And the new definition of 'frustration' is 'the effect brought about on others by people who attribute a meaning to a word other than its real meaning, and then use the word to gainsay someone who uses the word in its true sense' !!!

:0)

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23 May 04 - 01:56 AM (#1191863)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie

Strollin' Johnny, that is the true frustration of language. I used 'coincidence' as some others in this thread used it, in order to point out that coincidence is what my experience was not, except that I grant my need and its answer coincided.   My belief is, as Little Hawk said above, that what we call coincidence is very often not happenstance at all.

I'm not sure I have made it clear yet. You want me to have another go at it? :)

---

23 May 04 - 02:14 AM (#1191866)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Strollin' Johnny

OK Ebbie, so we agree on what coincidence is (I think). So explain why your need and its answer was so unarguably not a coincidence please! What's so strange about bumping into someone you haven't seen for a while? On Friday just gone, I was describing, to my current work-colleagues, an office and some former colleagues I worked with in 1968 and who I haven't seen since then. Lo and behold, that very evening I encountered one of those colleagues from 1968 - 37 years since I last saw her, not just a few months - but I'm not scuttling around thinking I've had a visitation from Gabriel, we just happened to be at the same place on the same night! It was a coincidence, in a world of umpteen thousand million inhabitants coincidences are bound to happen, no mysterious spirits fluttering around the ether, it's just maths! If anyone doesn't see that simple fact, they need help.
:0)

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23 May 04 - 02:53 AM (#1191873)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie

HELLLLPP! ;~)

"I was describing, to my current work-colleagues, an office and some former colleagues I worked with in 1968 and who I haven't seen since then. Lo and behold, that very evening I encountered one of those colleagues from 1968 - 37 years since I last saw her, not just a few months "

Ah, but you see, Strollin' Johnny, it is entirely possible that your talking about your former colleagues that day when you hadn't seen them in so many years was in response to some nudging, whether because they were thinking of you or whether that there is some need there that you don't yet know about. (Keep us posted!)

As for my friend's fortuitous rescue of me- on the face of it it isn't so remarkable: We live in the same town of 30,000, we don't keep track of where the other is, etc. Keep in mind, though, that it was 7:30 in the morning; he lives in the Valley which has its own stores and other facilities; he doesn't often come downtown (On the phone later I asked him just why he was downtown at that hour, and he said, It's a long story. I'll tell you sometime.) Suffice it to say it had nothing to do with me.

I agree that one incident isn't convincing, but that kind of thing happens very frequently to me and I honor it. I have learned to try not to resist the nudge - and the more I see it happening, the more often it happens. It happens both ways, incidentally. Sometimes I am the one who responds.

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23 May 04 - 02:59 AM (#1191875)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Strollin' Johnny

Woooooooo, spookeeeee!
Sorry Ebbie, we just have to agree to differ on this one! I guess I'm not a deep-thinker and I find your logic hard to go with, but I'm big, old and ugly enough to know that I'm not always right!
Cheers M'Dear!
Johnny :0)

PS what are you doing up at this time - don't you guys ever go to bed?!!

---

23 May 04 - 05:04 AM (#1191897)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill

Bill D

either there is consciousness, or there is no consciousness. If there is nothing to perceive no consciousness, then there is only consciousness.

freda

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23 May 04 - 11:33 AM (#1191986)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Guy

Of course there are angels and well documented at that. Start with your Bible!!!

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23 May 04 - 02:41 PM (#1192077)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Strollin' Johnny

Georgiansilver - now look what you started! But then that's what you intended all along isn't it you bugger! (LOL) :0) :0)
We'll have a laugh over a beer tomorrow night.
J :0)

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23 May 04 - 03:44 PM (#1192121)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Shucks John, you say such nice things......two beers was that???

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23 May 04 - 04:06 PM (#1192138)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D

freda....I can say only....."HUH??"

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23 May 04 - 05:28 PM (#1192204)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Rasener

Aston Villa have been saved from certain death by Juan Pablo Angel

god rest his soul :-)

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23 May 04 - 05:37 PM (#1192208)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

Oh, what a tangled weave we web
When we awake to find we're dead."

Not quite, Sir W and Bill D, but cloooossssse.

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23 May 04 - 06:20 PM (#1192252)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Richard

In North Devon UK some years ago some people were saved from a runaway tractor at a Christian Centre..I think the village was called Lee. Don't know more than that but saw it on Tele

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24 May 04 - 03:02 AM (#1192438)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Doug Chadwick

A 19-year-old man went over a cliff at the Oregon coast in his pickup. The truck was demolished but he was unhurt except for a small cut on his forehead. He claimed that when he went through the window he was caught by an angel. He said he saw the arms.

The 16-year-old daughter of a friend of mine overturned the family car on a narrow, twisting road and was unhurt. She told her mother that an angel held up the car enough for her to climb out from under it.


The "angels" would have done a better job if they had grabbed hold of the steering wheels and kept the cars on the road in the first place


Doug C

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24 May 04 - 06:08 AM (#1192555)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Dave C

Angels are those women who work in hospitals...nurses....gone quiet about them being underpaid lately has it not??

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24 May 04 - 08:35 AM (#1192636)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: *daylia*

Where are the Angels? I think that picture depicts very well the nature of "angels" and the work they do.

The "angels" would have done a better job if they had grabbed hold of the steering wheels and kept the cars on the road in the first place

Well, Doug, maybe you could coach the angels a bit on how to do a better job helping people, while at the same time never interfering with their choices or their free will - and remaining "incognito".

Sounds like a pretty difficult .... and thankless .... job.

---

24 May 04 - 10:12 AM (#1192707)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Wolfgang

there are no coincidences whatsoever
I have a lot of experience with coincidence.

As several have tried to point out, some uses here of the word 'coincidence' are extremely nonstandard which makes discussion difficult.

C. G. Jung ("Synchronicity: An acausal principle") has used the term 'synchronicity' for meaningful coincidences. Though synchronicity is just Greek for coincidence, Jung's use is now standard:

...synchronicity as the simultaneous occurrence of a psychological event (e.g. a dream, vision, fantasy or idea) with one (or more) external events in life, which appear to be meaningfully connected.

Deplorably, in the last years, some have dropped the 'meaningful' before 'coincidences' and use the word coincidences alone in a way others have used synchronicity. The misunderstandings in several posts here can be traced to this lack of differentiation in terminology.

While I scratch my nose, a Siberian worker has died from pneumonia, a Peruvian woman has creamed in labour, an Ethiopian child has died etc. That's coincidence in the original meaning and not even Jung would call that a meaningful coincidence.

There once was a song by an Austrian songwriter (A. Brauer) telling how many people died all over the world while he was having his breakfast. A whole big town it was while he was manging his Kipferl.

Wolfgang

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24 May 04 - 11:03 AM (#1192754)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie

Yes, Wolfgang, I too have creamed in labor a few times.

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24 May 04 - 11:37 AM (#1192788)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

It may be coincidence that it gets colder when the sun goes down; however, I doubt it. But, just because science or math can predict something doesn't mean it happens all the time. If I provide the following: 2 4 6 8 and ask what comes next, most people would say 10. They might be right. The guy that answers 10 plus or minus X (with X being unknown) might also be right. Science can't prove or disprove angels because science has never studied angels. Comes down to a matter of belief. And I believe there are angels. I live in a simple universe.

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24 May 04 - 11:51 AM (#1192811)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

What if a bunch of crows were sitting around one day arguing whether or not stocks and bonds exist? Or if a bunch of woodchucks were arguing the plausibility of aircraft that exceed the speed of sound. Do you follow my analogy?

Given their normal levels of perception and their normal spheres of operation they would simply not be able to prove the matter one way or another.

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24 May 04 - 12:04 PM (#1192820)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

I would just add to your bright post, LH, that we are discussing your (or my) impression of crows and woodchucks. As to what they see or feel, or how they interact, really, it is hard to pin it down; the perceptic set and the frequencies they come in on may be wholly different, despite certain similarities like bi-ocularity, from what homosaps sense.

A

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24 May 04 - 12:05 PM (#1192821)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Cluin

Yep. And we don't really give a rodent's rectum about the philosophical conundrums rodents and corvids have.

I expect angels might feel the same way, if they exist.

Dying is built into the program when life comes along. Why would you think so-called higher powers and hanging around in the ether to prevent it? Haven't they got some kind of celestial paperwork to get on with or something?

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24 May 04 - 12:08 PM (#1192827)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

It's interesting that science chose to study gravity (now both the weak and strong 'force') without having proof that gravity as we perceive it really existed. Yes, I know objects are attracted to each other in a given mathematical ratio. However, in space, very far from any other objects, how would one go about proving the existence of gravity? Let's take the case of a steel ball bearing drifting somewhere out beyond beyond. It would never be able to prove gravity. I imagine that sooner or later it might wonder what held itself together, and it might arrive at a conclusion. It would likely never deem itself to be three dimensional, because it's round. Maybe Nth dimensional. When we met that ball bearing, how would we ever be able to understand each other's reasoning? Likely, we wouldn't. Besides, if angels don't really exist for some peopl--why are we discussing them?

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24 May 04 - 12:22 PM (#1192837)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill

.... from Zen n the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance....

I go on. "For example, it seems completely natural to presume that gravitation and the law of gravitation existed before Isaac Newton. It would sound nutty to think that until the seventeenth century there was no gravity."          "Of course."

"So when did this law start? Has it always existed?" John is frowning, wondering what I am getting at.

"What I'm driving at," I say, "is the notion that before the beginning of the earth, before the sun and the stars were formed, before the primal generation of anything, the law of gravity existed."

"Sure."

"Sitting there, having no mass of its own, no energy of its own, not in anyone's mind because there wasn't anyone, not in space because there was no space either, not anywhere...this law of gravity still existed?"      Now John seems not so sure.

"If that law of gravity existed," I say, "I honestly don't know what a thing has to do to be nonexistent. It seems to me that law of gravity has passed every test of nonexistence there is. You cannot think of a single attribute of nonexistence that that law of gravity didn't have. Or a single scientific attribute of existence it did have. And yet it is still `common sense' to believe that it existed."

John says, "I guess I'd have to think about it."

"Well, I predict that if you think about it long enough you will find yourself going round and round and round and round until you finally reach only one possible, rational, intelligent conclusion. The law of gravity and gravity itself did not exist before Isaac Newton. No other conclusion makes sense.

"And what that means," I say before he can interrupt, "and what that means is that that law of gravity exists nowhere except in people's heads! It's a ghost! We are all of us very arrogant and conceited about running down other people's ghosts but just as ignorant and barbaric and superstitious about our own."

"Why does everybody believe in the law of gravity then?"
"Mass hypnosis. In a very orthodox form known as `education."'
"You mean the teacher is hypnotizing the kids into believing the law of gravity?"
"Sure."
"That's absurd."

"You've heard of the importance of eye contact in the classroom? Every educationist emphasizes it. No educationist explains it."
John shakes his head and pours me another drink. He puts his hand over his mouth and in a mock aside says to Sylvia, "You know, most of the time he seems like such a normal guy."

I counter, "That's the first normal thing I've said in weeks. The rest of the time I'm feigning twentieth-century lunacy just like you are. So as not to draw attention to myself.

"But I'll repeat it for you," I say. "We believe the disembodied words of Sir Isaac Newton were sitting in the middle of nowhere billions of years before he was born and that magically he discovered these words. They were always there, even when they applied to nothing. Gradually the world came into being and then they applied to it. In fact, those words themselves were what formed the world. That, John, is ridiculous.

"The problem, the contradiction the scientists are stuck with, is that of mind. Mind has no matter or energy but they can't escape its predominance over everything they do. Logic exists in the mind. Numbers exist only in the mind. I don't get upset when scientists say that ghosts exist in the mind. It's that only that gets me. Science is only in your mind too, it's just that that doesn't make it bad. Or ghosts either."

They are just looking at me so I continue: "Laws of nature are human inventions, like ghosts. Laws of logic, of mathematics are also human inventions, like ghosts. The whole blessed thing is a human invention, including the idea that it isn't a human invention. The world has no existence whatsoever outside the human imagination. It's all a ghost, and in antiquity was so recognized as a ghost, the whole blessed world we live in. It's run by ghosts. We see what we see because these ghosts show it to us, ghosts of Moses and Christ and the Buddha, and Plato, and Descartes, and Rousseau and Jefferson and Lincoln, on and on and on. Isaac Newton is a very good ghost. One of the best. Your common sense is nothing more than the voices of thousands and thousands of these ghosts from the past. Ghosts and more ghosts. Ghosts trying to find their place among the living."

John looks too much in thought to speak. But Sylvia is excited. "Where do you get all these ideas?" she asks.
.........

---

24 May 04 - 12:23 PM (#1192840)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ellenpoly

OY! Here we gooooo again! I bet if there ARE angels, they'd be rolling their eyes at this thread!

Come on folks, enough with the arguing which you all love to do so much...MORE STORIES AND SITINGS!

Then again, maybe brucie is right, and they only get to visit us during their coffee breaks..xx..e

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24 May 04 - 12:30 PM (#1192855)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Strollin' Johnny

Ebbie - what a picture that conjures up! I'm sure 'creamed' was actually 'screamed' but it lost something big-style in the translation! Anyway, I wish you no further creaming! (LOL)
Johnny :0)

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24 May 04 - 12:32 PM (#1192858)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Strollin' Johnny

Brucie - Excreta Tauri Cerebrum Vincit.
My last words on t'subject (I promise!)
J :0) :0)

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24 May 04 - 01:14 PM (#1192888)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

brucie:

If it was wondering what held itself together it wouldn't come up with gravity.

Freda:

Pirsig's just dicking around, to put it politely. Newton's words had nothing to do with the "existence" of a law (meaning, in the absence of minds, simply a consistent behaviour in physical systems). I can promise you that kids learn about the consistent behavior of physical systems with respect to gravity a long time before they get taught about Newton or laws. Watch any kid wrestling witht he corner of a coffee table as he struggles to acheive bip[edal locomotion and you'll see the presence of a law of gravity being learned firsthand.

This does not deny that at some level, individual decisions about what will be bring about what is. But it is not as simple as Pirsig's character asserts, which is probably why (if I remember that book from 30 years ago) he ends up going mad because he can't define qualitas or some thing of that nature.

A

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24 May 04 - 01:37 PM (#1192909)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

Amos,

Either that or Crazy Glue.

---

24 May 04 - 02:08 PM (#1192939)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Chief Chaos

About twelve years ago I was involved in a head on collision with a bus at combined speeds of about 115 m.p.h. When the paramedics arrived they thought I was dead. They were about to rip out the seats of my Jeep Cherokee to get to me because they couldn't get the door open. I reached over and unlocked it for them thinking I'd rather not have my Jeep (which was unsalvagable) torn apart. I suffered an inner ear concusion, a left frontal lobe concussion, a broken wrist, a tweaked (okay so it's not a medical word)sternum, and a broken nose. Somebody was there with me. If you don't want to believe, that's okay, but I do.

As far as animals talking:

"Boy From The Country" - John Denver

Because he talked with the fish in the creek,
He tried to tell us, that the animals could speak,
And who knows, perhaps they do,
How do you know they don't, just because they haven't spoken to you

---

24 May 04 - 02:15 PM (#1192946)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

The force that holds molecules together is not gravity.

It is indeed a crazy glue, though...


A

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24 May 04 - 02:51 PM (#1192990)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

There is a force that holds everything together. It's the force of consciousness, directed consciousness. And even that is part of the dream that we are all dreaming in. The reason people like to define the dream is that it gives them familiar points of reference to work with. The reason people like to limit the dream is because its sheer immensity terrifies them. This is one of the reasons why some individuals don't allow angels in their version of the dream, but it's probably not the only reason. Everyone accepts the common mythology of their particular civilization and regards it as "normal", but then some people later tend to rebel against what they perceive as "normal". In doing so, they establish an alternative normality. :-) Mine includes angels and a number of other somewhat unusual things. I am confronted by mystery, and I accept it. As for the ordinary physical stuff which we all deal with, well, that is so obvious that I don't see much need to debate about it. I just like to look further than the obvious, that's all.

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24 May 04 - 03:03 PM (#1192996)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: beardedbruce

Can we get a definition, here? What do YOU mean when you say Angel? A tall, blue-eyed blond androgynous individual with white feathered wings? Until you define what one is, how can you say othat any exist, or do not exist?

If things that happen that I do not understand the cause of is the definition of an angel, then I must be in heaven.

---

24 May 04 - 03:07 PM (#1192999)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill

Amos

that quote wasn't meant to be a solution - just a quirky comment. yes, he goes bonkers, and also, in a few paragraphs earlier, he is arguing the complete opposite. but i was reading the book online today, and read that bit about gravity .. when i saw brucie's comments .. i couldn't resist.

angels, the universe, gravity, glue... sometimes, for whatever reason, amidst all the hard times, good things happen, wonderful things happen, there is a bend in the road and a light comes from nowhere.

I am grateful for those times, and a moment like that has just happened for me.

---

24 May 04 - 03:22 PM (#1193011)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,MMario

speaking of angels and car accidents (as was mentioned a bit above)
a few years ago I kit a ptach of gravel while trying to abvoid a cyclist - my car rolled (multiple times accoding to the witnesses - I don't remember more then a half turn

the two items I was never able to locate afterwards- a copper, brass and silver braided wristband my sister gave me "garunteed to preserve your health" - and a cross on a chain - both of which were ON MY PERSON at the time of the accident. They were both missing when I got out of the car. My watch, another wristband and a second neckpiece were all there and intact. Heck - my glasses never left my nose.

So what happened to the wristband and cross? I've always joked they evaporated keeping me safe.

---

24 May 04 - 03:27 PM (#1193016)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

Looking further than the obvious is great...as long as you don't fall off the edge!! Freda, magic is always welcome!! Ya gotta love it when you find it, for sure.

But consider, as regards angels that any individual is capable of constructing, using the same directed consciousness that Little Hawk refers to, an operational locus of consciosuness that acts like an endowed entity, and can use it to interfere with their own lives as though it was being done by an external entitiy.

You can make angels at need, in short. Or so it seems to me....

A

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24 May 04 - 04:28 PM (#1193065)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie

"I reached over and unlocked it for them thinking I'd rather not have my Jeep (which was unsalvagable) torn apart."

Chief Chaos, that reminds me of what my brother lamented last month after totalling his car: "I need tires for my car, and I don't have the money".

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24 May 04 - 04:54 PM (#1193080)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Chief Chaos

Funny things is that the door opened. The damage was almost all limited to the front end. If I had been able to at the time, I would have been able to reach out from the driver seat and touch what remained of the front end. The police said I landed 150 yards back from where the impact was.

I always tell people that I won. I did $45,000.00 in damages. THe bus only got an $8000.00 jeep.

I would normally disuade most people from buying an SUV (if it isn't really needed) but aside from my angel co-pilot, I do believe the design of the Cherokee saved my life

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24 May 04 - 06:49 PM (#1193165)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D

"The world has no existence whatsoever outside the human imagination."...*grin*...There is a footnote in the work of David Hume, who actually tried to promulgate a philosophy with that as a central point...he said that although he could PROVE the logical consistancy of his ideas, sometimes it just got too much for him and he found himself acting as though 'stuff' actually existed!
   He never seemed to get the point that 'logical consistency' was useless if your basic premises were faulty.

Immanuel Kant begins his major work, "Critique of Pure Reason" with the statement "There can be no doubt that all our knowlege begins with experience"

Hume begins one of his major works with an almost identical statement.....and then they go on to almost totally different conclusions!

My only real point here is that people are capable of interpreting their experiences in many ways, and notions of 'truth' and 'reality' are slippery and elusive ideas which are as much a product of superstition and wishful thinking as of careful observation and analysis.

If there really are angels and devils and gods...etc...they must be laughing hard 'up there' at our poor attempts to comprehend them.

---

24 May 04 - 07:24 PM (#1193191)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

The chicken and the egg engaged in sex. Afterwards, the chicken was smoking a cigarette. He said, "Well, I guess we've answered THAT question."

I think it is in the nature of people to believe in things beyond themselves. Perhaps it IS only a way to explain what we 'see' when we have no 'proof' for it. I may wish to argue that the computer I am typing this on doesn't exist. That then would logically conclude that no one is really out there, because if one reality is meaningless, so too are other realities. However, I'd bet bucks to doughnuts that there is another post after this one.

The fact that no one has proved the existence of angels means that no one has proved the existence of angels, not that angels don't exist. I simply know that for me they do. And I don't require proof for that belief.

---

24 May 04 - 07:34 PM (#1193208)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Brucie...the problem is that people cannot or will not accept things which are out of their personal framework. Unless they experience it then it does not exist...It has to be proved to them beyond a shadow of a doubt.....It will also make them suspect you of fabrication because they have not tasted what you have. I can truly believe because I hear what you are saying and because of my own beliefs I believe what you are saying...because of my own experiences I believe you.
Let's just leave the others to their thoughts,whether positive or negative, and get on with things ourselves.
Because of my personal experiences I also believe that Jesus came as Saviour to the world....but there will be many out there who have not tasted my Jesus also and will dispute the truth as I know it because they have been taught to believe otherwise or they doubt as Thomas did and will only accept it if they meet Him for real.
Be Blessed.

---

24 May 04 - 07:46 PM (#1193227)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

There was a faith-healer named Neal
Who avowed, "Although pain is not real,
"If I sit on a pin,
"And it punctures my skin,
"I dislike what I fancy I feel!"

A

---

24 May 04 - 08:07 PM (#1193249)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

Yep, I'm with you guys, and with Bill D. He is one smart sonuvagun, and I appreciate his answers and arguments. I don't know if he's an angel or not, but he oughta be.

Today I received a beautiful comment from GUEST on another thread. I have just had a week from hell, and I figured nothing would get me 'up' for a while. Well, whoever that angel is, the words (about six of them) gave me a whole new perspective on things. Funny how the smallest thing can create great change.

Later,

Bruce M

---

25 May 04 - 12:49 AM (#1193363)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Ahh...y' want definitions of "Angels", do you? Well, I can only offer mine, and it's a necessarily incomplete definition.

The Angels I am familiar with appear to be: Spiritual beings of a very powerful sort, but most likely not physical beings. Whether they can manifest physically at all in this reality I don't know. They appear to somehow embody both genders seamlessly, but in a way that is quite subtle, not obvious. I suspect that they appear somewhat differently to different people anyway, since they are interpreted through the witness's own consciousness and cultural expectations...which probably affects what the witness sees. They appear to be very strong-minded and positive in their intentions. They suggest immortality strongly to me. They speak inside your mind, but you "hear" them anyway, as if with the ears. They sing magnificently. They are clothed in light. It can appear as a sort of shimmering clothing. I saw long robes, silvery white. I'm not quite sure about the wings. I figure that some people will see wings and others won't. The wings are a symbol, a visual metaphor. They (Angels) appear to serve a higher power and to be protectors and guides for humanity. They have tremendous focus of will and tremendous compassion. Whether there are "dark" angels, I don't know. I certainly haven't seen any. I have seen one Angel of Light and I have heard the distant singing of others on a handful of occasions.

I don't expect anyone to necessarily believe that. Your beliefs are your own business, and are probably appropriate to your own life path.

---

25 May 04 - 12:57 AM (#1193365)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

Your beliefs are your own business, and are probably appropriate to your own life path.


That's a tautological statement if I ever read one, LH!! :>) I mean, considering that one's life path is made up of nothing else but one's beliefs.

A

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25 May 04 - 03:27 AM (#1193402)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Or non-beliefs??????. We are each shaped by our experiences....those who experience, can claim those experiences..those who don't can't.
Some find it possible to believe without proof and some won't believe unless they have definitive proof. That's life!!!
Be Blessed.

---

25 May 04 - 03:49 AM (#1193421)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ellenpoly

My Holiday Angel looked like a slightly balding middle-aged man.

My friend's Angel looks like a little old Chinese man wearing a conical hat. (She is blind, and therefore her description was even more interesting due to her only having seen him in her mind's eye.)

Another friend's Angels are just the voices in his brain that help him make important decisions, and lead him away from danger.

Yet another friend described her Angel as being 9 feet tall, with long red hair and a smile that made her cry.

..xx..e

---

25 May 04 - 10:06 AM (#1193640)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D

tautological statements abound!

Redundant tautological statements!

Metetricious, redundant, tautological statements....

Metetricious, redundant, jejune, tautological statements...

Gratuitous, metetricious, redundant, jejune, tautological statements...

Efflusive, gratuitous, metetricious, redundant, jejune, tautological statements..

and sometimes, pusillanimous, efflusive, gratuitous, metetricious, redundant, jejune, tautological statements..


also a few that are just plain silly.... ;>)

---

25 May 04 - 10:14 AM (#1193645)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: *daylia*

Here's an interesting little "angelic" coincidence - last summer at the Rolling Stones concert in Toronto, my friend Don had a wonderful experience. He'd waited for an hour to meet his son at a pre-arranged time and place in the park, but the son didn't show. Worried, Don spent the next hour wandering through the crowd of half a million people in the sweltering heat searching for him. No go.

Ready to give up he headed back to the original meeting-place - and en route he passed by a hot miserable-looking toddler. The child was sitting in a little plastic wading pool, but there was no water in it. Water was at quite the premium that day, and no one seemed willing to give up their precious supply to fill that wading pool. So Don poured his last two bottles of water into the pool, much to the child's relief and delight.

No sooner had he done that but he turned around - and there was his son and girlfriend standing right behind him!

Now this may or may not have anything to do with "angels", but I just love what's implied here -- when you act like an "angel" by giving something of yourself to help another, it seems like you attract the same loving attentions to yourself -- and your own needs and desires are met too!

daylia

---

25 May 04 - 10:26 AM (#1193654)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Bill D perhaps your views on angels might have been useful if you had been able to give any but your criticism has been noted including it's repetitive content..repetitive content...repetitive content...repe.....Perhaps you should find a thread where you have an opinion on the thread itself. Be Blessed.

---

25 May 04 - 10:57 AM (#1193693)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,noddy

I married one!

---

25 May 04 - 12:32 PM (#1193788)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Richard

Knowing that there's angels and actually proving it are two different things. I know there are but you can't disprove it anyway.

---

25 May 04 - 04:07 PM (#1193886)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Nor is there any point trying to...

You could say the same about love, compassion, and any number of other intriguing things.

I talk about Angels because I find them very interesting, not because I need to prove they exist.

Bill, cease these crapulous, rambling attempts to stick darts in a target that is not physical in the first place. :-)

---

25 May 04 - 05:20 PM (#1193929)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Buddhist helpline

Of course there are angels....you meet them every day, without realising it....treat everyone as though they are an angel and you will win respect...with love to all.

---

25 May 04 - 09:00 PM (#1193990)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D

I typed a long, friendly reply to Little Hawk and Georgiansilver, but Muscat did its daily crash, and I lost it.. ;>(

the part to LH said...

"yassuh, Boss!...(but iffen they ain't physical, they wont feel it, will they? ;>)"

the other part I 'may' try to re-create....but maybe not..

---

25 May 04 - 09:26 PM (#1194005)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Damn! Annoying as hell, isn't it, Bill? I now block and save my longer dissertations before hitting "submit".

By the way, I used the word "crapulous" just for fun, having discovered it today in the dictionary. It comes from "crapulence", meaning: gross drunkenness

What a great word! :-)

---

25 May 04 - 11:16 PM (#1194054)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

Ya know, it is very hard to say what the nature of being is, especially if you start entertaining these seditious notions that it may be a variable independent of the physical form of the body. Some folks believe there are actually multiple planes of being and there are various kinds of situations in play depending on the level you are viewing.

Here's what an executive at a large comapny wrote me recently:

It may sound wacky, but enough other things have turned out to be true that I can't dismiss the explanation.
>>
>> In short, there are many planes of existence that intersect here on Earth.
>> There are beings on every plane, and they all have a role to play in a
>> larger cosmic scheme--but that doesn't mean they are all benevolent.
>>
>> Some beings are mischievous; others are downright hostile
>> (counter-evolutionary). When they pick up on a person who desires
>something
>> deeply, they pose as the object of that desire. They subsequently use
>their   influence for sport (or worse).
>>
>> What we think of as personality is transitory. It is a very superficial
>> layer of our being and the first one to dissolve upon death; and it is
>very   rare for a "soul" to have any memories of previous life experiences. So,
>> when people think they are contacting a "departed soul," they are usually
>> being toyed with by another type of being altogether.

I have no opinion about his conclusions, but it is interesting to note the perspective he is communicating.

A

---

26 May 04 - 10:24 AM (#1194157)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Richard

If you take the Christian perspective..The world has God and devil or good and evil. satan and his followers control all the evil...tempt people into whatever and God and His angels provide all the good. Taking that on board..then the "departed souls" and the "mischevious beings" mentioned above are satan or a demon who is misleading people.
Makes a good case for there really being angels I suppose.

---

26 May 04 - 12:46 PM (#1194312)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Interesting letter, Amos. I do think there are some mischievous entities out there in the Astral, all right, giving people false messages via Ouija board, seance, and so on. One has to use careful judgement when it comes to this sort of thing.

---

26 May 04 - 11:38 PM (#1194596)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

He is correct, Ebbie.

---

27 May 04 - 12:45 AM (#1194631)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie

Thankee, LH.

---

27 May 04 - 08:34 AM (#1194867)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill

Bill D

apart from your crapulous comments above, your comments are always extremely incisive, well argued and persuasive. They make sense.

its just that when it goes to anything remotely intangible, I have had experiences which tell me something different. It doesn't stop me from admiring your brain. but I also highly value the moements I've been lucky enough to experience.

bruce's account of dying on the operating table was very moving. for me, it shows why life is so amazing,and so hard.

freda

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27 May 04 - 10:26 AM (#1194993)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos

Ebbie:

A wonderful story!!

I love the occasional opportunity Ihave to just do as my higher instincts (or whatever you wish to call them) indicate. Doesn't happen as often as I would like.

A

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27 May 04 - 11:43 AM (#1195079)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Richard

I love reading these personal accounts. Brave of some of you to give them in spite of the sceptics out there.

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27 May 04 - 05:09 PM (#1195356)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Lovechild

Angels are all over the place. My mums life was saved by one when she fell over the edge of a cliff. She found herslef on the beach without a mark on her but thought she must have blacked out as she couldn't remember how she got there. She swears it must be an angel that saved her as theres rocks under the cliff and she cant have fallen on them or she would have been dead.

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27 May 04 - 08:38 PM (#1195503)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine

I know the following is contrived and puerile but I can't help thinking that the point being made is one worth making:
"We are each of us angels with only one wing, and we can only fly by embracing one another."
Luciano de Crescenzo

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27 May 04 - 08:51 PM (#1195512)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Actually, I think we are Angels in the making...

---

27 May 04 - 09:16 PM (#1195528)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

I think you have that one pegged, LH. I hope so, anyway. BillD has got one whoppin' surprise in store. BG

---

27 May 04 - 09:43 PM (#1195548)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, Bruce. I can see it now...

Bill - This must be a mistake. I'm dead.

Angels - No, Bill, you're perfectly all right.

Bill - Uh, uh. I'm history. Once you die that's it.

Angels - Then how do you explain this conversation you're having with us, Bill?

Bill - I figure it's just random firing of the last few fading neurons, that's all, before the final darkness of oblivion.

Angels - How long would that random firing go on then?

Bill - Ummm...my guess is it's gonna stop any second now.

(Much much later....)

Angels - Well, Bill?

Bill - There has got to be a mistake here. When "you is dead, you is dead, and there ain't no mo'". I know that for a fact. When I fell into that industrial trash compactor and got turned into hamburger patties it was curtains. I am gone, kaput, defunct, no more. I'm toast.

Angels - You are the funniest guy we've seen yet, Bill! Don't think we aren't glad to make your acquaintance. Now let's see...does anyone have a copy of the "Skeptics Bible" handy? We'd like to point out a few inconsistencies and see what you think, Bill, seeing as how you seem to be an expert. Now, look at this passage right here...

Heh!

---

27 May 04 - 09:51 PM (#1195551)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

And now, from beautiful downtown Valhalla . . . .

Back to you, Bill. (Good cartoon by the way.)

---

27 May 04 - 09:53 PM (#1195552)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,freda

perfect, LH & brucie!

---

28 May 04 - 11:51 AM (#1195977)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge

I `ad "Old Nick" in my cab the other day. I said, what do you make of all them angels then? `e said, they`re not all cracked up what they`re supposed to be, wicked little blighters. I said, what do you mean? `e said, where do you think all the "dust" comes from then??
What am I like??

---

28 May 04 - 12:45 PM (#1196005)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D

*big grin*....as I said before, it aint fair. If I AM right, I don't even get to say "I told you so!" If I DO get to have that conversation with the angels or other higher powers, I hope to get some answers to questions I have been puzzled about for years.

"Um..which one of you were supposed to be on duty the night my friend Tom Nyberg was run over from behind by a truck while he was stopped at a stop sign?"

about cartoons...one of my favorites was an old Mutt & Jeff cartoon from MANY years ago. Little Jeff comes running into the bar where Mutt & buddies are, saying:

"Hey, guys...you know old crippled Jake? Well, he just took a drink from the Fountain of Faith and threw his crutches away!"

"Wow!", says Mutt, "Where is he now?"

"Flat on his back out in the alley!"

....with a few tweaks, it could be made to fit many situations we discuss here, though we all know that humor doesn't prove anything either way. And of course, you'd never see a cartoon like that from Jonny Hart, who draws "B.C." ;>)

the whole point is that stories of people who pray, plead, hope and perhaps deserve, intervention from various "higher powers", and do NOT get help are not good news and usually not even known about. Those who are inclined (through personal experience or trust in others) to accept 'miracles' don't usually like discussions about why it doesn't work more often. 'Taint no easy explanation, hmmm?

sorry, I just can't deal with "Well, who are WE to comprehend the ways of 'higher beings'. That's just the way it works."

---

28 May 04 - 01:02 PM (#1196031)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

LOL! I like the one about the crutches.

I think most people get what they want, Bill, but only what they want at the subconscious level, that is...and it may be hard to figure out what's going on at their subconscious level.

Example: You may have a guy who is fixated on being a big success in business, and yet he keeps screwing up and losing his money. Consciously he wants very much to succeed, yet subconsciously (if one were to look into it) he's acting out a much different scenario...namely, the notion that "I'll always be a failure no matter how hard I try, because the world is cruel and unfair and other people are untrustworthy." So the "angels", so to speak, are giving him exactly what he believes in...failure...as long as he keeps believing in it.

That's just one of a million possible examples of how we short-circuit our best laid plans in this life.

As to why your friend got run over...who knows? There could be a million different reasons for that too, aside from just plain old "bad luck" which I don't believe in, but lots of people do.

Like I said, death ain't so bad...but it's hard on those who are left behind without a good explanation, that's for sure.

---

28 May 04 - 02:57 PM (#1196108)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Gypsyfree

When my children were young one of them was suddenly taken ill while out walking in the countryside. I didn't know the area and as we were on the moors houses were few and far between. I picked her up and began to run in the direction I thought would be the best bet, but I was seemingly getting nowhere. A young man approached and just took her. It all happened so fast I didn't have time to react. He ran in a different direction to the one I was taking but we were able to keep up with him, how I don't know. When we came to a cottage he handed her back and knocked on the door. A woman answered and as we stepped inside I turned to thank the young man but he was gone. The woman was a district nurse and she was able to do the neccessary. When I asked her if she saw where the young man went she looked at me funny...she had seen no one.

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28 May 04 - 03:17 PM (#1196119)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

From Hart when he was part of the team that did the Wizard of Id:

"Who goes there?"
"William the Conqueror."
"State your business."
"I just did!"

---

28 May 04 - 06:54 PM (#1196260)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo

To add to the thing about those that do not get what they want even when they pray for it...Welll...I personally believe prayer is two-way reception...in order to get the answers you seek you must make sure your spiritual tuner is in the best possible working condition...and if you only get static then keep moving the attennae and have faith that eventually you'll catch the station you're so desperately seeking for...and be able to recognize that it is indeed WHAT you are looking for. Sometimes answers are very subtle or not quite what we were expecting.

Prayer should be more about communion with God. Sometimes you just need the strength to get through a trial more than to have the trial removed completely and sometimes you simply need to talk about anything and everything and feel that someone is listening. If our parents carried us around constantly while we were learning to walk...we'd never be bothered to try and take that first step. It's about the bumps and bruises, the process of learning.

Humans are built on hopes...if we did not have hope we would be sad creatures indeed.

Faith is a deeper knowledge...where the human mind fails to fully comprehend or understand something, where logic has no answer, faith steps in and takes over for sometimes our souls know what we cannot put into words...

My two cents {O)

Now for personal experience...my brother was driving home one night it had just been raining and my brother drives fast. He was on the highway and there were puddles. As he related the experience he says that someone suddenly spoke in his ear and said " Slow down " He was so startled he did and immediately hit a puddle that he could have fishtailed and gotten into a serious wreck over...had he been going faster. He came home so shaken he was crying and my brother is as far from the churchy type as it gets, although he is a good kid...and I've NEVER seen him cry about anything...

This might classify as angelic although I look at it more as a manifestation of the power of the Holy Spirit who is also a guide, a comforter and a protector (I believe BTW that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are all separate entities...the three in one thing just doesn't cut it for me)

---

28 May 04 - 07:28 PM (#1196305)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Try reading your New Testament thoroughly Pogo and you may learn a thing or two about the trinity.

---

28 May 04 - 07:35 PM (#1196307)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: beardedbruce

The new testament, like ALL religious texts, can be used to prove whatever point one might want to. This is NOT even getting into the different translations that exist, each with it's own set of biasing errors.

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28 May 04 - 07:50 PM (#1196323)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo

:) I do Georgiansilver although I admit leapfrogged here and there...However I'm making a goal to read the Bible from beginning to end straight through. My favorite writers in the NT are Paul and Luke

" I and the Father are one " I take that as being one in mind and purpose not literally one being.

" Father forgive them for they know not what they do "

" This is my Beloved Son in who I am well pleased " when John baptized Jesus correct?

" Father into thy hands I commend my spirit "

" Father remove this cup from me..."

To me it makes more sense that He is speaking to God the Father rather than speaking to Himself or throwing His voice but this is just my view on things

back to angels :)

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28 May 04 - 07:59 PM (#1196331)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Exodous 3-14....John 8 58...for you Pogo just as a start......

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28 May 04 - 08:19 PM (#1196342)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo

*laffs* oh no...that'll get a whole new thread started...

Thank you Georgian I looked them up. To completely confuse you...I agree...Jesus was indeed Jehovah of the Old Testament

:)

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28 May 04 - 08:24 PM (#1196345)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

And then read the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ, a very underrated book in most of Christendom... :-) (in my opinion, anyway) Who says "the Bible" is the ONLY Bible? I don't think it is.

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28 May 04 - 08:33 PM (#1196352)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill

I might get run over by a truck tomorrow. and if this happens, I won't think the angels were looking the other way. I will know its my time to go, and I will look forward to some help from them in moving on.

Twenty five years ago, on a Sunday evening, I got a phone call with some bad news. My close friend Julie, mother of four young children, had just died. She had been driving her car along a country road, and had looked behind her to the two young children in the back seat, we think. She was hit by a moving train, went into a coma and died. The two children were unhurt and were found wandering in a field nearby. Julie was in a coma for three days before dying.

Julie and I had previously shared a large house in Burwood in Sydney - three families lived communally. We shared cooking, childcare, and lots of good times. We had mulberry trees out the front and back, and made mulberry pies, crumbles, tarts and jam. She was an incredibly kind and good natured person, and a very good friend. At the time of the accident she had moved further north and was living in Queensland on a farm.

I cried for hours that night, in shock at the news, angry thoughts ripping through me about the injustice of her death, how would her husband manage with the kids on his own, and running a business, why someone like her was taken so young (early 30s) and why such a lovely person should die. Finally, in the early hours of the morning, I had cried myself empty of any other thoughts or feelings. I just lay in the darkness, exhausted, just sort of empty of anything.

The bedside radio next to me turned on (by itself) and I heard
julie's voice and felt her presence as some lovely classical music softly played on the radio. She said "don't worry, I'm fine, I'm fine".

I rolled over, turned the radio off, turned it on again and off again, just checking to myself that it responded to being switched on and off, & trying to work out why it turned on. I went and took two herbal sleeping tablets and went to sleep.

I found out a year later at a reunion of her friends that two other women had had similar experiences on the same night. One had walked into the backyard at night, and had seen Julie hovering in the air in front of her - Julie didnt say anything but extended comfort. This woman was extremely shocked as this did not fit in with her preconceptions, she didnt believe in ghosts, or angels.

The other was a young woman who had been a neighbour of Julie's in Queensland - Julie came to her and asked her to take care of the children. This young woman helped considerably with the childcare until Julie's father remarried a few years later.

Anyone not present can analyse these experiences however they want. But that is speculation which may be very logical and commendable. but I say after having an experience like this, it would be illogical for me to believe that Julie's life was over when she was hit by the truck.

freda

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28 May 04 - 08:34 PM (#1196354)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo

Is that considered part of the Apocrypha LH? I have flipped through some of the books in the Apocrypha...wild stuff especially the medieval texts talking about Jesus's childhood. The Book of Judith I enjoy greatly..

(still love my old King James version the best...I enjoy writing and the poetry of the language appeals to my writer's heart...A matter a personal taste)

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28 May 04 - 08:37 PM (#1196357)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

No, it's more recent than the Apocrypha. It was written in the 1800's, and is quite fascinating. It intrigues me that people can accept the notion that something was written by revelation as long as it was written VERY LONG AGO...but will dismiss it instantly as if it was written in their own time.

People are strange critters.

I say...judge the message by the quality OF the message, not by its antiquity. If miracles can happen 2,000 years ago they can happen now.

---

28 May 04 - 08:38 PM (#1196359)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo

freda very neat experience BTW :)

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28 May 04 - 08:49 PM (#1196364)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo

Okay I'll keep an eye out for it LH. I always enjoy furthering my theological knowledge :)

Can't be odder than the account of the young Jesus making little birds out of clay and bringing them to life.

Mebbe we oughter start a 'ligious thread and take these drifting topics to it...so this thread can keep on angels and not bother those wanting to talk about them

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28 May 04 - 09:04 PM (#1196370)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill

ta Pogo, and here's another one for you.

I had a close friend in the 80s who was a drama therapist from Chile, very handsome, very gay. He did some amazing work with disabled people in Australia, and was a pioneer of getting people off medication and into their life and creativity. His name was Aldo Gennaro, a documentary was made about his work (Stepping Out) including putting an an opera at the Opera House with people who have Downs syndrome.

For a while I was lucky enough to work with Aldo as his assistant, it was an incredible experience working with someone like him. He had a form of autism, and had gone into a Catholic monastery in Chile which offered a silent lifestyle. Aldo grew and changed and left the order, and came to Australia and worked with a range of disadvantaged or disabled people.

Anyway, one morning I woke up after a strange dream. I had dreamt I visited Aldo at his flat in Ashfield. Now Aldo's place was beautiful, walls painted white , beautiful paintings (by Aldo) and a large wall hanging on one wall. But in the dream, it had been stripped of all possessions, the walls were painted a sort of peach/pink colour, and there was nothing in there except for a dark purple scarf on the floor.

I went to work and phoned Aldo at his flat off and on during the morning, just to check in. At midday, another friend of his answered the phone. She was minding Aldo's flat - he was in hospital, at St Vincent's, seriously ill with a life threatening condition.

I went to visit him in hospital that afternoon. He was in a small, bare hospital room, painted a peach/pink colour, and he had tied a dark purple scarf tied on his bed head.

If I hadn't had that dream, I wouldnt have been alerted to his illness, and would not have been able to spend time with him before he died.

freda

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28 May 04 - 09:05 PM (#1196371)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: beardedbruce

Pogo:

I'm trying...

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28 May 04 - 09:18 PM (#1196375)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Pogo

*grinz* Helpin' ya out there BB

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28 May 04 - 11:16 PM (#1196428)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie

Beautiful, freda. One gets to the place where it is all right when someone else doesn't accept the experience, huh. One knows. And in all likelihood, they too will know, eventually.

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28 May 04 - 11:47 PM (#1196445)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill

yes, I understand there are manipulators and self deluders. and i don't have a random, open acceptance of every version of psychic phenomena that turns up.

but these things have happened and yes, I don't care when others disagree. I admire their reasons for disagreeing.

i enjoyed your post too Ebbie, and all your posts, come to think of it.

best wishes

freda

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29 May 04 - 01:32 AM (#1196475)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: LadyJean

There are stories told of soldiers in the first world war seeing angels. It should be noted that most of those men had gone withoug sleep for long periods of time when they claimed to have seen them. I've been a bad sleeper all my life, and I've seen some impressive things that I hope to gracious weren't really there.

Back in the sixties, the city of Pittsburgh started to build a bridge and ran out of money. For several years the "Bridge to Nowhere" spanned the Allegheny river, and came to an abrupt end.
One night some idiot got drunk and drove off the end. His car was totalled. He walked into the nearest emergency room, and said, "I just drove off the Bridge to Nowhere, you'd better check me out." He checked out fine.
No angels were seen, but the Lord looks after fools and drunkards.

There may be angels, but I have yet to encounter one. I'll be out in Homewood Cemetery today, dropping by the family plot. If I run across any there, that arent' stone or bronze, I'll tell them to go to mudcat.

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29 May 04 - 10:57 AM (#1196489)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Consider this, though...their lack of sleep may have been the very thing that lowered their normal state of conscious resistance or control, so to speak, so that they were open enough to see something real that we don't normally see. It's a possibility, specially when many people see the same thing.

It's not easy to break through barriers of perception. In many sacred traditions things like fasting and sleep deprivation were used to do precisely that, in a very purposeful way.

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30 May 04 - 03:55 AM (#1196952)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Thanks all for your contributions. Have decided to do some serious research on the subject but can see it is a very mixed bag of tricks.
Be Blessed.

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30 May 04 - 02:07 PM (#1197158)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,McGrath of Altcar

Nonsense! Delusions! Go speak to your doctor if you believe in angels.

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30 May 04 - 02:42 PM (#1197174)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

GUEST:

I don't BELIEVE in doctors.

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30 May 04 - 03:58 PM (#1197236)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Neither do I. I think doctors are among the most overrated individuals on the planet.

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30 May 04 - 04:59 PM (#1197281)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Nurses are angels though

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30 May 04 - 05:40 PM (#1197304)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

That's true. Three days in the hospital and I took a turn for the nurse.

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30 May 04 - 06:14 PM (#1197322)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Sure that made you feel better! lol

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30 May 04 - 06:33 PM (#1197332)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Having met both doctors AND an Angel, I can say without any doubt whatsoever that I would put my trust in the Angels first. Doctors are like dogs and dandelions....they're a temporary phenomenon. Angels have staying power.

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30 May 04 - 07:35 PM (#1197377)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

I hear that, LH.

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30 May 04 - 09:00 PM (#1197412)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Cruiser

Dipwallow!

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31 May 04 - 06:08 PM (#1197907)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace

You can say that again!

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31 May 04 - 10:44 PM (#1198102)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Cruiser

Dipwallow!

(Thanks again to LH)

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31 May 04 - 11:02 PM (#1198113)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Dipwallow, dipwallow...

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01 Jun 04 - 01:22 AM (#1198155)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: LadyJean

Generally when I haven't had enough sleep, the furniture moves by itself. It doesn't do this if I've had a decent night's sleep, even if I'm running the vacuum, so I don't think the furniture really moves.
Shortly after mother died, when I was averaging 3 hours sleep a night, the supermarket was full of cat food. Every aisle had cans of catfood. They weren't really there, but I saw them.

Then there was the very sleepless trip I took with my friend Cecilia, at the last of it, I saw her in a black leather halter top. Let me assure you she wouldn't be seen dead in something like that. Then I saw a 20 foot high Confederate soldier on Shady Avenue. He hasn't been back there since. I think he was a telephone pole.

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01 Jun 04 - 01:35 AM (#1198157)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

You're unusual, Lady Jean. I think you should consider writing a book. You might get on Oprah.

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02 Jun 04 - 03:52 AM (#1198289)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Great Lady Jean but your vivid imagination might not be shared with others. Do you have a lot of cats then??? lol Be Blessed.

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02 Jun 04 - 05:33 AM (#1198341)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: beardedbruce

Did anyone ever give an explaination/definition of "angels"?

I know there are things that we have no explaination of, but what exactly do you mean when you say "angel"? A helpful spirit that moves trees out of the way of moving cars? A little voice that tells you to slow down?

Are we talking about an external agency, or an aspect of God/Goddess that resides within each of us?

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02 Jun 04 - 06:04 AM (#1198360)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Hi Beardedbruce.
It would appear to me that there are many different interpretations of what angels actually are but consider this. The Bible actually tells us they exist as the guardians and helpers from God whereas the demons are of the devil and working for evil. Some of the very personal replies I have had on PM indicate that whatever they are they "help" people positively.
I personally believe that Angels are of God as it is the only documented evidence of such positive beings but each to his/her own I suppose. Everyone(who has any kind of experience of such phenomena) has a relevant opinion. Be Blessed.

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02 Jun 04 - 05:42 PM (#1198794)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Brucewith no beard.

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03 Jun 04 - 12:30 AM (#1198948)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

There are plenty of different definitions of "Angel". It just depends on who you ask. If you actually encounter one, however, then you've got something more definite to go on...but don't expect anyone else to necessarily believe you! They won't if they are not inclined to, and that's perfectly okay, I guess. I mean, really, what difference does it make whether they believe you or not? None, actually. Same deal with flying saucers, ghosts, and anything else the least bit unusual that one may have encountered. Let the debunkers be happy in their unbelief, I say. They want a World that fits only what they already believe and nothing else. Okay, fine. You live in exactly the World you believe in as long as you keep believing in it. Sometimes direct experience can change that set of beliefs radically...but only for the one who has the experience! There will always be people who deny YOUR direct experience out of hand...because they KNOW it just can't be true. "I don't believe it's possible, so it can't be true. You couldn't have had that experience, and if you think you did, you are mistaken." Well, whoopee doo. Ignorance is the most impervious armour known to man. It admits no possibility that it has not itself already adopted.

And you do not have to belong to any religion to see an Angel...they're nondenominational. :-) Despite this, most organized religions seek to establish exclusive ownership over them. Sad, that's what is. Sad.

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03 Jun 04 - 07:20 AM (#1199095)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Wolfgang

Thanks, Ebbie, for (implicitely) correcting my typo.

Comes down to a matter of belief. (brucie)
Besides, if angels don't really exist for some peopl--why are we discussing them? (brucie)

Yes, it's a matter of belief, of course, and belief needs no evidence. An expression like 'really exist', however, sounds funny for me in juxtaposition with 'for some people'. If I believe there are no angels and no God do they 'really not exist' for me? It seems to be clearer for me to use words like 'belief' here and leave 'really' to another sphere.

The story about the skeptic's surprise after death is a good one for more than one reason. I nearly bought a book elaborating this story at the last german skeptics' congress. It was hilarious and it ended with an uprising against God. But I like the story for another reason: It points to a basic asymmetry between a believer and a skeptic: The dead skeptic can only find that she was wrong (or find nothing), the dead believer can only find that he was right about the afterlife (though perhaps miserably wrong in many details). The skeptic has no chance to find out he was right and the believer has no chance to find out she was wrong. That's one of the basic differences: skeptics prefer to be proved wrong, because there is much more to learn from being proved (proven?) wrong.

Georgiansilver, I consider many things correct and real that I have never experienced.

BTW, if someone is interested in reading a skeptical point of view regarding angels and similar entities, you can read

Joe Nickell, Entities, Prometheus Books, 1995.

The point is not to prove that they don't exist, for after all, it's a matter of belief (see above). The point is to show which situations and what stimulation can lead to the real experiences which then are interpreted by some as, for instance, angelic action.

Wolfgang

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03 Jun 04 - 07:21 AM (#1199096)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: *daylia*

Little Hawk, I've been asking the angels to give you this irresistible urge to call me ... but no go ... hmmmph! angels shmangels .... gotta do everything myself ... oh fine!

GIVE ME A CALL WHEN YOU GET THE CHANCE LITTLE HAWK!

daylia


PS are you perchance an American kestrel???

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03 Jun 04 - 11:17 AM (#1199295)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk

Actually, I had been thinking about calling you...so your message was half getting through, I guess. Will do. Shortly.

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03 Jun 04 - 10:44 PM (#1199830)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Mathmatishun

Well of course there are Angles: some straight, some right, acute, central, obtuse, reflex, vertex, etc.

Now I ask you, ever seen acute Angel?

I guess when you wing your way to heaven it is on the wings of the Angel of Elevation.

Angles are real, Angels are not.

That's the Angle on Angels...they ain't congruent.

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04 Jun 04 - 02:48 PM (#1200460)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: *daylia*

Ok fine ... let's not get all obtuse over it now ...

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04 Jun 04 - 07:59 PM (#1200671)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver

Some folk obviously have the right angle on it all.

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04 Jun 04 - 10:48 PM (#1200739)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Cruiser

I must admit one of my favorite songs 'Angel On My Shoulder' by Shelby Flint would not sound quite right as "got an Angle On..."

So, the word has at least inspired one good song. I can't say the same for Angle.

Cruiser (aka Mathmatishun)

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05 Jun 04 - 12:18 AM (#1200775)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: LadyJean

I'm a writer, but not a successful one, with two very fine cats, who are very well fed.

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05 Jun 04 - 02:26 AM (#1200819)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: dianavan

Little Hawk - I like what you said about angels being non-denominational! I was not raised "in a church' but was not discouraged from seeking God. As a child, I was on a beautiful but isolated Pacific beach at sunset. I was at the waters edge, feeling the sand squish from beneath my feet. I heard a sound. I looked into the sky and saw a choir of angels to the northwest. There was also a larger, singular, bright figure in the southwest part of the sky. I could not see faces, wings or hands. What was more amazing than the bright and radiant visual was the sound. It was one long, sustained sound that got louder and louder. It was perfect harmony.

I did not wish for this. I was not looking for angels. In fact, I believe that it was my untrained mind that was open to this experience. Too often, schools and churches categorize and codify, not only that which exists, but also how to think and feel about what exists.

When we separate what we think from what we feel, our perception is limited to one knowledge or the other. When we think and feel simultaneously, our knowledge become personally relevant. I wish I could have another experience like that but I think my brain is over-trained and far too rational. I have lost my innocence. The balance is gone.

Doesn't the bible say something like: Lest ye make yourselves like little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven?

I think I entered the kingdom of heaven for a few brief moments. I wish I could go there again.

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05 Jun 04 - 07:12 AM (#1200876)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Christian

Spoken well Dianavan. Angels are there fort all who are "able" tosee them

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05 Jun 04 - 10:14 AM (#1200926)
Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Mr Red

I saw several wings on the backs of some pretty poppets at Chippenham Folk festival but I didn't ask if they were angels - maybe I would have found out if I had. They looked as if there weren't.............

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