|
21 May 04 - 12:25 PM (#1190854) Subject: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: GUEST People keep asking for the Chords for Songs . I just assume they must know the Tune then - so why the F* CK do they need the chords ? - don't the two come together, in any case , if one provides the answer it is C, C, C,F, F,G ,G ,G, Am, G ,G, C. ( or something like that ) what good is that, if you don't know how the tune goes , or you've got a recording in a completely different Key . Am I missing a trick here ? |
|
21 May 04 - 12:34 PM (#1190868) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Peace Some people who play by ear are not at the point where thay can distinguish the difference between a good place to put a G or an Em7. Their musical ear ain't quite there. Also, they may not be able to find the sheet music. Once you recognize that a D13 flat 5 flat 9 doesn't provide the same 'background' to a melody as a D 13 flat 9, THEN the question would have validity. I would presume that someone would ask for chords because they don't have them. Good people will provide and not bitch about it. Bruce Murdoch |
|
21 May 04 - 12:56 PM (#1190892) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: wysiwyg Maybe because, altho it's surprising how many people do not know how to transpose, a lotta real nice and smart folks don't. Or maybe because really good songs arrranged well often have little odd surprises in the arrangement, and the requestor wants to duplicate the sound they've heard, and they know they're off somedamnwhar. Knowing they are not perfect, they do the sensible thing-- ask someone who knows more and may be disposed to help a fellow human bean. But really, because people are people, who consider them part of the chain of life called "Pass it on." Would you have appreciated being answered, for your query in this thread, "Why the fock can't you figger that out for yerself?" Or, were you really asking-- was it actually just a wee little pissy rant? In any event, I hope the replies are useful to you. ~Susan |
|
21 May 04 - 01:05 PM (#1190896) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Ebbie Guest, (How nice to meet you!) because many people don't transpose at the drop of a pick, we often use Roman numerals in order to be 'key free'. We say I, IV, V or I; Im, V, etc; or I, II, V, whatever. People even give the information to each other across the room with their fingers. It works. |
|
21 May 04 - 01:07 PM (#1190901) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: GUEST,MMario and some of them DON'T know the melodies - because they are just doing chords for someone ELSE. |
|
21 May 04 - 01:12 PM (#1190907) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Joe Offer I'm not much of a guitarist, so I need to get chords information before I start to fool around with a song. Rise Up Singing gives me plenty of chords to practice with, so I don't think I've ever requested chords here. I guess I get moderately annoyed by chords requests, especially by people who start half-a-dozen chords requests all at the same time, for songs from the same performer. One might wonder why they don't just go out and get their own Barry Manilow songbook. Chords requests most often seem to be for pop or singer-songwriter songs, and rarely for traditional songs. I like to help, but multiple chords requests don't seem to fit the spirit of our Forum. Besides, if we post all those commercial music chords all the time, the copyright cops might have good reason to go after us. If we do one every once in a while, that's another matter, but I'm glad we don't do it all the time. When we get requests for chords or lyrics for commercial songs, I'd suggest it's best to post a link, not the chords. We had four chords requests for Marty Robbins songs yesterday. Every one of those songs was available at Cowpie, and I wonder why we have to duplicate what Cowpie does so well. For pop songs, the best resource is the OnLine Guitar Archive, http://www.olga.net/. If it's a chords request for a traditional song, I think we should honor it - chords are very helpful to beginning guitarists. -Joe Offer- |
|
21 May 04 - 01:12 PM (#1190908) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: GUEST,woodsie The arseh*le "guest who started this thread askes why does somebody need the chords if they know the tune - is he or she thick? Usually people ask for the chords so that they can PLAY to accompany the tune. Also what does "knowing the tune" mean? Knowing how it sounds, being able to hum it? Do you assume that everyone that asks for chords is an acomplished musician? It's not always G, C & D. There are sometimes a lot of sublties invoved. This is why there is a huge market in published books of chords for various songs. |
|
21 May 04 - 02:09 PM (#1190942) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: pavane When I found this was a problem, I did something about it, and wrote a couple of programs MIDI chords to tell you what chords are being played in any MIDI file (One can usually be found somewhere for most pop songs) HARMONY to ADD chords to a melody (including abc tunes) |
|
21 May 04 - 02:13 PM (#1190945) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: GUEST,Betsy Woodsie ,don't call me an arsehole - with or without an asterisk. I'm over 15 stone ( 200lbs) 6 Foot and punch every ounce of my weight I don't know why, when I started the thread it didn't put my name but we'll sort that out later. I've been playing the Folkie type acoustic guitar for over 30 years . Brucie says that once you recognise D13 flat 5 flat 9 etc - all that is miles over my head but I accept everything he says. I certainly do not read music and I'm not sure about "transposing" as WYSIWYG mentioned - Is this changing it from C,F,G, into G,C,D type of thing ?. MMario might have unlocked it for me saying implying they strumming for someone else and Joe Offer is probably more on my wave length of understanding why I asked the question and Ebbie nice to meet you – that's SOME system you have there !! As for your own contribution Woodsie - it was disappointing - certainly if I can hum the tune I can generally play it. Asking for the chords surely demands that if someone says "has any one got the chords for Wild Rover starting in the key of ....." then we know that either they sing in that key or they are going to accompany someone in that key . If they do not posses this basic building brick of requesting the song in a certain key then I hardly believe they will be capable in changing the key to suit whoever they are going to accompany. We all know songs which have a tricky chord or two and – sure - we've had to ask some one - is this right ? or does this one sound OK ? etc. I just cannot understand someone asking for all the chords for an entire song and ( worst of all ) a usually well - known song . |
|
21 May 04 - 02:26 PM (#1190949) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Mark Clark I no longer remember the pain involved in learning the chords for the first few songs I learned on guitar—actually, I no longer remember breakfast this morning—but I know the process was troublesome. Even though I'd been through a fair amount of childhood music education, each experience involved learning certain notes or scales then playing them from sheet music. No time was spent teaching me the nature of music. You just read the score and played what someone else had printed there. My childhood instruments included piano, violin, trumpet and trombone, in that order. None of these encouraged me to think of music has having any chordal structure. I'm sure it took me a year or two on the guitar to get to the place where I'd know the chord progressions just by hearing the melody. As far as the requests here are concerned, Joe is certainly correct that the chords for most popular music are already on the Net somewhere, easily located using a search engine. The same might be said of technical help for computer users. We see the same technical questions over and over again, often from folks who've given no thought to security. They miss the fact that the Net is overflowing with sound solutions to these problems. Often they're even too lazy to search Mudcat for the many times we've already answered the same questions. Still, I always try to answer when I can and in a polite way. If people become irritated by my answers, they'll also become irritated with Mudcat in general and I'd rather not see that happen. - Mark |
|
21 May 04 - 02:27 PM (#1190951) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Mooh Though I DO wish folks would at least appear to do the simple internet search for such things before they clutter up discussion forums, there is a compelling reason for such requests in the Mudpond. The collective knowledge here is immense. If one asks for a song they're likely to get a variety of obscure versions as well as the current pop darling's version, versions in different styles, from different geographic influences and cultures, and so on, all of which might involve variations on the chords, progressions, melody, and lyrics. Not everyone can pull chords out of the air with only the melody to work with, and even fewer can pull the correct (by a recorded standard) chords from the air. Fewer still can create an interesting variation with alternate chords. That they ask here is smart because they should get usable answers with intelligent discussion. Peace, Mooh. |
|
21 May 04 - 02:58 PM (#1190955) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Peace GUEST, betsy, If you are a member, message me and I'll give you the neatest way to transpose. It will help with that. Mostly, if you do triads and have the 'basic' chords to a key (with their relative minors), you can do 90% of the music that's around. Let me know if I can be of help. Bruce Murdoch |
|
21 May 04 - 03:01 PM (#1190956) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Peace GUEST, betsy: Message me if I can be of help. |
|
21 May 04 - 03:02 PM (#1190957) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: GUEST Pax vobiscum Mooh. I'm only talking about simple major and minor chords which you need to adequately accompany a song - I wasn't thinking a " recorded standard " level just plain and simple , good and honest chords bu t I knew what you meant. |
|
21 May 04 - 03:18 PM (#1190967) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Jerry Rasmussen I've had requests for the chords for my songs in here, several times. They've all been from people I was not only happy to help, but turned out even more to be people I was glad to meet. The other day, I was accompanying someone on a song I actaully gave to them, on a CD. I was pretty familiar with the song, but had to follow along and watch some of the chord changes, because they were a surprise. I've also been pleasantly surprised a couple of times when people have performed a song I wrote, where they added a transitional chord I hadn't thought of. There are worse things in life than being asked to give chords to a song. Jerry |
|
21 May 04 - 03:26 PM (#1190976) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: LilyFestre Perhaps I'm out of line here, but being a very beginning guitar player (Lesson #3 this week!), I would think that asking someone who is obviously experienced would be THE thing to do. Yes, I know you can look up stuff on the internet, but if the accomplished player and the beginning player are together, why not ask? What does it harm? Michelle, who is truly not trying to be offensive |
|
21 May 04 - 03:33 PM (#1190983) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: GUEST,woodsie Betsy you stuck up fat cow! You started swearing in the first line of your thread - so you deserve all you get! |
|
21 May 04 - 04:04 PM (#1191002) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Ed. And you started being offensive in your first breath, Woodsie... I know what it's like to be a 'beginner' at guitar. Knowing how to work out chords is a skill, and it takes time to learn. I think that those of us who know how to use Google should remember that many people don't. The requests that annoy me, are the ones that are rude, such as this one. I don't like requesters who don't bother to say thank you, either. |
|
21 May 04 - 04:08 PM (#1191008) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: s&r Joe's right in that there are plenty of sources to find chord information; one of the nice things about mudcat though is that in general there is always someone prepared to respond helpfully to a request that is seeking help. A link may be the right answer, but rude rejection just tars the god name of mudcat. In the relatively short time I've been a member I can only say that I've been welcomed - Ive learned a lot from Knowledgeable people. I don't think a previous thread is always the way to go: there is a conversational element to mudcat postings that makes it a mmeting of friends Stu |
|
21 May 04 - 04:25 PM (#1191016) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Once Famous I never really had a problem asking what the chords are to a song. I am fortunate that even at a very young age I was able to "hear" where chord changes occur. I know that there are people who can't and don't. At the jam sessions I get involved with, I avoid playing with those people but have no problem if they want to watch and learn. Transposing chords is also easy. Identifying chords as a first chord, fourth chord, and seventh chord in a particul key is much of what you need to know. From what I understand, Nashville session artists just have their chord charts marked as first chord, fourth chord, fifth chord, etc. after the key has been established. What id do find to be complete er, rubbish is tab. Especially for 5 string banjo. either use your ear, experiment, or learn to read music. |
|
21 May 04 - 05:43 PM (#1191071) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Lin in Kansas Also Ed: Sometimes we don't see everything...I sent email to the requester of the Marty Robbins chords to tell him they'd been posted, and received a very nice "thank you" mail in response. I agree it would have been better to post the thanks in the threads, but I think the mail response was adequate. Lin |
|
21 May 04 - 05:57 PM (#1191080) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: M.Ted I always try to post chords for old standards when they are requested--the published chords are often wrong, at least for guitar(even when they work for piano),and you often have to clean up a lot of the stuff that is posted at Olga before you can use it--so even when it seems like stuff is readily available, it often isn't very useful-- Often people put the chords over or in the lyrics with no indication of the time value--it is much better to have the chords written out measure for measure, so you can simply count off and play--it allows to play an accompaniment even if you don't know the melody, and it makes it very easy to play when someone is improvising-- My chords are either arrangements that I have played before, or new things that I have worked up for the request , so I am always sure that they really work--I don't just cut and paste something-- |
|
21 May 04 - 06:24 PM (#1191088) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: harpmaker I thought this was a music resorce site where you could req' information? I once (long ago) req' chords for a song. Sure, I could have worked them out, but a freind asked me to play the song that night. I was busy @ the time, so i req' for the chords here, for speed. I got shot down for the req, so I've never bothered since. Stuff it. To my mind, this thread should not exist. Its not compulsary to reply to req' You even get nasty with one another. |
|
21 May 04 - 07:51 PM (#1191154) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: GUEST,Seaking I found the original question a strange one to ask. Everyone has their own reasons for requesting help or advice from other musicians -maybe they just know the tune but havn't heard it accompanied ( a simple major or minor chord can be placed in the same part of a tune but will alter the context of the tune being played)or perhaps they are looking for help with a more difficult tune or looking for a better arrangement to the one they know already. As mentioned already, varying levels of competency (probably the best answer to your original question), natural ability and 'ear' all come into it as well and while some folk don't NEED to ask for the chords - maybe you are one of the lucky ones Betsy - then quite simply others do need to ask. Going back thirty years did you NEVER ask someone for the chords to a well known tune you wanted to learn ? I have also played acoustic 'folksie' guitar for over thirty years and am reasonably competent but will still seek advice on chords, tunings, phrasing etc from anyone who is prepared to willingly offer help when asked, even the whole tune if it's what it takes - might be chords in a strange open tuning but it's all relative depending on ability. Equally, I am flattered when asked by someone for help and like most Mudcatters happy when I am able to provide it. It's just the way it works for some people. Chris (also trying not to offend) |
|
21 May 04 - 09:58 PM (#1191232) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: JohnB I have played around with the guitar for far many more years than my limited ability would suggest. I still have problems working out chords for songs. I have never requested chords from Mudcat but by the number of requests I see, I am obviously not the only person around who has this problem. I really envy those of you who can just play along with anybody in any key. SO what's the big deal about sharing, I thought that's what people came here for. I do agree that they should do a search first though. JohnB if you are offended by this "get a thicker skin" |
|
22 May 04 - 12:10 AM (#1191293) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: GUEST,leeneia I second the statement that someone trying to figure out a new song needs to know two things - what the chords are and what the time signature is. I see nothing wrong with asking for chords. If the song is somewhere on the net, give the person a lead to the site. It will help us all. If such requests irritate you, just don't click on them. |
|
22 May 04 - 12:34 AM (#1191305) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: The Fooles Troupe ... when searching the net for a song and you only get the chords in the Nashville Numbering System ... ???!!! |
|
22 May 04 - 03:16 AM (#1191362) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Richard Bridge Betsy, your posts may not convey all of the doubtless excellent aspects of your personality. They appear to be rude, aggressive, and self aggrandising, as well as distinctly un-clever. They are not in the best traditions of this forum, and I suggest you familiarise yourself more fully with local norms before you cover yourself more completely with something that does not smell as sweet as glory. |
|
22 May 04 - 03:38 AM (#1191372) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Ebbie Martin Gibson - and Betsy - that numbering system was what I was referring to. It works, as you said, because it doesn't matter what key it's going to be played in. In other words, Betsy, the #I chord is your root chord, i.e. G. The most common chords you find in the key of G are G and C and D, as you said. Starting from G, which is I, (1) making IV (4) be C and when you add one more that's D which is the V (5)chord. The relative minor of G is E (Starting with the root chord of any key, count 6). This works for all the basic keys and chords. I have NO idea how D13 flat 5 flat 9 differs from D 13 flat 9. I have NO idea how to make either one. Or when to use it. Or why I would want to. There are many excellent players out there who know all that stuff, but not nearly as many as know only the basic stuff. |
|
22 May 04 - 03:43 AM (#1191375) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: C-flat I'm quite lucky in so much as I can generally "hear" certain chords (in fact I kind of see it rather than hear it, but that's another thread) and can usually work a song out for myself. I'm slow with written music and tend to rely on my ears unless I'm playing something particularly tricky. That said, I wouldn't hesitate to ask for chords to a melody I already know if I thought I was missing something. Just knowing the melody isn't enough. You can completely change the feel of a song with some slight chord alterations. C-flat. |
|
22 May 04 - 01:39 PM (#1191556) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Peace I can't resist C-flat. There you B, A, a double-sharp guy. |
|
22 May 04 - 07:22 PM (#1191741) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Gypsy Gee, and i thought EVERYONE had to start at point A, at one time or another. Doesn't bother me at all to give help when i can. Makes me a better player having to think a bit. |
|
22 May 04 - 07:55 PM (#1191752) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: harpmaker Thats better, this thread should exist afterall!! |
|
22 May 04 - 08:01 PM (#1191755) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: McGrath of Harlow There isn't just one fixed set of chords for a song, even in one key. It all depends how you want it to sound - you can stick in minor chords or take them out, or extra passing chords, or take them out, or you can stick in a bass run instead of a chord... That's aside from the fact that you might have a taste for using less common chords - not just the freaky ones like diminished 13th and so forth, but maybe a dm7 instead of an F. And if you're playing a different instrument those things will vary again, as has been mentioned in respect of the way that, if you are using a song book with chords put in by a piano player, and you play guitar, you are pretty well bound to change them. A set of chords someone else uses is a handy starting point, but you aren't necessarily going to stick with them. And you might not use the same set of chords for all the verses. Given all that there's no reason not to ask for them or not to give them when they are asked. It's a friendly thing to do, to give people a chance to help you, and it's a friendly thing to do to respond to that. |
|
23 May 04 - 11:27 AM (#1191981) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Cap't Bob Chord request "Why ask?", well there are probably several reasons and sometimes I benefit from other peoples requests. A while back someone asked for the chords to "I'll see you in my dreams". Simple little tune so I thought I work out the chords. Hmm, not so easy ~ about ready to give up in despair I saw ED's post saying check here: http://www.guitarresources.net/fetchitem.php?id=00000405 That little song has somewhere around 25 chords and many I don't use on a regular basis. Anyway I worked out a chord/melody arangement on the uke and intend to play it for an open Ukulele Workshop we are hosting today. I played the tune for a friend then he wanted the chords "thanks again ED". I really enjoy songs that are a bit of a challange. Basically if it hadn't been for the request I'd probably have lost this wonderful little song. Thanks to all involved. Cap't Bob |
|
23 May 04 - 02:14 PM (#1192061) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: McGrath of Harlow Thanks for that link Cap't Bob - and a great example of a case where asking for chords makes complete sense. Just about anyone would go crazy trying to work out the chords Joe Brown used for this in the Concert for George. |
|
23 May 04 - 04:39 PM (#1192164) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: HuwG An exasperated fellow guitarist recently exclaimed to me, "Just because Richard Thompson wrote in in F doesn't mean you have to play it in F." Transposition is indeed a useful skill. After a few years, most people I know tend to memorise the standard chords in most keys. This system occasionally breaks down when trying to accompany someone determined to sing in C#. I have occasionally responded to requests for chords on these threads (usually where I am the the fortunate position of getting them from the horse's mouth, so to speak, for songs which aren't in most common songbooks). |
|
23 May 04 - 05:23 PM (#1192203) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: McGrath of Harlow "This system occasionally breaks down when trying to accompany someone determined to sing in C#." That's where the magic capo comes in handy. |
|
24 May 04 - 08:02 AM (#1192611) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: GUEST McGrath is right - what on earth are 'the' chords anyway. I rarely use the same chords two verses running, let alone two performances running. If someone gave you 'the' chords, presumably you'd play the same ones every time. Horrible. |
|
24 May 04 - 08:27 AM (#1192627) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: pavane Transposition is not at all difficult, but if you really can't count round the letters, then you could make a transposition slide rule, as follows: Write all possible key names, TWICE, evenly spaced on one ruler (Or piece of paper) like this A Bb B C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb ...etc Write all the key names again, similarly spaced on another. Then place the two side by side, and slide until the keys line up. Remember that only the NAME changes, not the type of chord. For example, to transpose from C to Eb, just place the C on the one slider against the Eb on the other, and read off all the other chords. You may also note that some keys have TWO names, sharp or flat. The following is EXACTLY equivalent. Make another slider if you prefer, or write the sharps above their equivalent flats. A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# ...etc Rule: If your key has a # in the name, use the # names, if a flat, use the b (flat)names ALSO note the 'enharmonic equivalents' : Cb is the same as B Fb is the same as E B# is the same as C E# is the same as F You won't usually see these though. You could include these all on one slider if you like, as below So to transpose from , as G to C#, you just place the slider as Cb B# Fb E# ...etcSo G becomes C#, D7 becomes G#7, Am becomes Dm and so on. |
|
24 May 04 - 08:57 AM (#1192645) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: Betsy I`ve been travelling during the weekend and only just opened the thread up again. Firstly the people who have made personal atacks, to them let me say I`ve reponded to Brucie`s offer to PM him and thank him for his kind offer. I think some of the points of view confirm some of what I thought when asking the question - and has also helped me to think differently about the situation - so in my book that constitutes a interesting thread . I think maybe I was familiar with the basics of transposing,but didn`t know it by that name.I don`t have a great deal of trouble changing from one key to another ,but when tunes get REALLY complicated in a Session - you`ll find me coughing politely, put my guitar down and ambling to the bar !!. I write songs with very limited success - don`t write the actual music but I remember the tunes in my head - along with the chords. I just thought THAT was natural progression, but it appears by the thread I`m very wide of the mark , in, assuming everyone hears and plays the same way .For that assumption - I make my utmost apologies as it seems to have aroused some annoyance, however the constructive contributions from Jerry , C-Flat, McGrath, Martin G, M Ted ,Seaking, Ebbie, Cap`n Bob, Huw G and others confirm (to me),that it was an intersting question to ask, and have ironed-out some of my misconceptions. Should there be a case for Mudcat requiring a Censor , Editor / Thought Controller I`m sure that Richard Bridge with his comments has thrown his hat firmly into the ring , should this vacancy ever ( hopefully never) arise. |
|
24 May 04 - 10:54 AM (#1192744) Subject: RE: Chords Required - Why ask?? From: pavane That example I gave has been rendered useless because I didn't specify a fixed spacing font. The chord names aren't lining up properly! Copy it out and change the font to Courier or similar to get the proper version! |