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BS: Iraqi women and the Koran

24 May 04 - 01:42 PM (#1192916)
Subject: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: dianavan

The question of rights and freedoms in Iraq make me wonder about the role of women in Iraq. Of course I fear the control of the Taliban but I'm not sure how or if the American idea of democracy in Iraq will or will not effect the customs.

I think our image of Iraqi women may be very distorted. It is my understanding that the Koran was very liberating for tribal women way back then. It gave them the right to sexual pleasure in marriage, it gave them reproductive rights, it gave them the right to divorce.

The trouble is, not many Irqis can actually read the Koran and depend on their religious leaders to interpret the writing. Much like the priests role in early Catholicism. If the religious leaders interpret the Koran to say a woman must... a religious woman will do it.

It is also my understanding that Allah is a merciful God but like the God of Jews and Christians, can be invoked as a God of war - depends on the mind set of the religious leaders and politicians. Are there any Koranic scholars out there?

Mostly I am interested in how American style democracy will effect the lives of Muslim women or if it will change anything at all.


24 May 04 - 02:03 PM (#1192934)
Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: Kim C

I am ignorant about the Koran. However I am reading a book right now called Princess Sultana's Daughters, about the Saudi royal family; and Princess Sultana, who is all for women's rights, makes it very plain that while the Koran doesn't call for women to be veiled, ancient tradition does.

It's not unlike some of the conundrums in Christianity today. People will believe what the leaders tell them, rather than checking out the source for themselves.


24 May 04 - 02:17 PM (#1192949)
Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: Amos

Apathetic resignation is not really a viable option; but it is also true that given enough oppression by force continued long enough one can induce a lot of stupidity in a human population. It takes a long time to get used to the idea that one's own intelligence should be re-acvivated.

A


24 May 04 - 02:50 PM (#1192989)
Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: GUEST

The introductory posting in this thread is one of the most confused things I've ever seen on Mudcat. Dianavan calls the thread, "Iranian women and the Koran," and then goes on and on about women in Iraq without mentioning Iran.

People in Iraq, who are (generally) ethnically Arab, are referred to as "Iraqi." People in Iran, who are (generally) ethnically Persian, are referred to as "Iranian." Iraq and Iran, which spent many years at war with each other, are not the same country.

Furthermore, Dianavan's opening paragraph says: "The question of rights and freedoms in Iraq make me wonder about the role of women in Iraq. Of course I fear the control of the Taliban but I'm not sure how or if the American idea of democracy in Iraq will or will not effect the customs."

Taliban? What does the Taliban, the former governing regime in Afghanistan, have to do with either Iraq or Iran.

Memo to Dianavan: Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan are three different countries. Your confusion is akin to referring to the United States, Mexico and Chile as the same countries.


24 May 04 - 03:09 PM (#1193000)
Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: freda underhill

Guest: chill out.


24 May 04 - 03:12 PM (#1193003)
Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: dianavan

Sorry Quest and others - Will Joe or one of the clones, please change the title to Iraqi women and the Koran? Thats a big mistake. I meant to say Iraq.

... and yes, I fear the Taliban and other radical fundamentalists.

I know that they are 3 separate countries. Sorry for the confusion.


24 May 04 - 03:50 PM (#1193040)
Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: Ed.

The trouble is, not many Irqis [sic] can actually read the Koran

Where on earth did you pick up that idea?


24 May 04 - 04:04 PM (#1193047)
Subject: RE: BS: Iranian women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

The trouble is, not many Iraqis can actually read the Koran

Adult literacy in Iraq is 60% according to this site. And, as I understand it, anyone who can read Arabic can read the Koran - the language hasn't changed that much. (Of course interpeting what any scriptures mean is always a more complicated business than just being able to read the words. That goes for Muslims as much as it does for Christians and Jews.)


24 May 04 - 05:03 PM (#1193089)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Chief Chaos

Like any other document, control gives power.
Those who hold the power aren't likely to share it.
And since they control the document, they can disseminate what it contains with their spin of things. Keep the peasants ignorant and even if they get ahold of the document they'll never be able to tell that you did them wrong.

One of the big problems with the stone tablets given Moses was that they were carved away from the mountain. The world would probably be a little better off had they been written out in the stars for all to see as "proof" and no one could tamper with the wording.


24 May 04 - 05:03 PM (#1193090)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

I picked that up from an Iranian woman. Perhaps she was speaking generally about Moslem women.

McGrath - I find those statistics to be quite vague. 47% enter post secondary. How many finish? How many men and how many women? The 60% literacy rate does not tell us how many men and how many women, either. Nor does it differentiate between faunctional literacy and critical literacy.

Just because you can read an advertisement, street sign or bank book doesn't necessarily mean you can or will read the Koran.

I am assuming (perhaps, incorrectly) that many women in Iraq and the middle east, generally, listen to the edicts of the religious leaders rather than interpret the teachings of the Koran on their own. Its probably much the same for Christianity and Judaism or any religion.

I will try to word my inquiry more carefully.

If the U.S. is successful in bringing democracy to Iraq, what will they do about freedom of religion? What will they do about women's rights?


24 May 04 - 05:10 PM (#1193093)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Ed.

If the U.S. is successful in bringing democracy to Iraq

Was that meant as a joke?


24 May 04 - 05:33 PM (#1193109)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

Let me ask you this, dianavan.

Is female circumsion practiced and performed in Islam?

I don't know if it is or isn't mandated or mentioned in the Koran, but it isn't Jews or Christians doing this nonsense.

Would your life be better without your clitoris?


24 May 04 - 05:41 PM (#1193116)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

Generally speaking people, it's at primary school people learn to read in England, and I'd imagine it'd be teh same in Iraq, so I wouldn't think statistics about post secondary would be too relevant.

I'd have thought that, as with Christians, it wouldn't be so much the actual ability to read that'd get in the way here, but rather shared understandings of how to interpret the scriptures.

Here's an interesting article about women and Islam: ISLAMIC TRADITIONS AND THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT


24 May 04 - 06:00 PM (#1193125)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Peace

I wouldn't trust any government's published literacy figures for any population anywhere. In North America, that figure is arrived at by countin people and newspapers. We always show a 99% literacy rate, The figure is bullshit.


24 May 04 - 07:29 PM (#1193203)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Gareth

Hmmm ! I am not convinced that functional illiteracy is that uncommen in the UK. (This from experience) Does anybody have an objective source on this ?

Gareth


24 May 04 - 07:39 PM (#1193213)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Noreen

Literacy levels in the UK


24 May 04 - 07:56 PM (#1193238)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Noreen

Is "American style democracy" to be forced onto a foreign country, with its own culture, traditions and history, dianavan?
Is it any wonder then that there is such anti-US feeling in the world?


From Harvard Magazine, July-August 2003:
Ultimately, democracy must be homegrown....
I don't think the United States can help build such institutions alone. Our credibility is shot in the Arab world; we are perceived primarily as imperialists, out to build a postwar Iraq that serves our own national interests.


24 May 04 - 08:04 PM (#1193247)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

Yeah, well Arab credibility is shot in America and just about the rest of the world.


24 May 04 - 08:06 PM (#1193248)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

Noreen - Thanks for the link. Yes, I know that democracy must come from the people and cannot be imposed. Thats why it is so shortsighted of the U.S. govt. to think they can liberate Iraq. What happens to the culture? What will it mean for women? I'm sure the religious leaders will still be in place.

Martin - clitorectomy is not a matter of religion. It is a cultual custom and is practiced in many countries, including Africa and the Middle East. Thank goodness I live in North America!

Is your life better without your foreskin?


24 May 04 - 08:40 PM (#1193264)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: mack/misophist

Most of the faithful oppose translating the Koran. The majority of the Muslim world does not speak Arabic. Iraqis do but not Afghanis or Iranians. Furthermore, most of the basis of Shari'a Law comes from one or more of several collections of Hadith (supposedly authenticated accounts of what Mohammed did/said on certain occasions). These are not widely available. This places believers at the mercy of the imams, who may or may not be well educated; who may or may not abuse their positions. Add to this the Doctrine of the Concensus, which states that whatever the majority of the faithful believe to be true, is true, and you have a mess to deal with. Remember, there is no central authority to define Islam. It's all local. Almost every observant Muslim believes that he practices authentic Islam.


24 May 04 - 08:41 PM (#1193265)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: GUEST,Jon

"Yeah, well Arab credibility is shot in America and just about the rest of the world."

And pigs can fly.


25 May 04 - 12:17 AM (#1193348)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

Thanks Mack/misophist,

Thats the answer I was looking for.

So regardless of who is in power in Iraq, the muslim faith will still be guided by the local religious leader. And irrespective of what the Koran says, women's rights will be dictated by the religious leaders.
Too bad Bush has made such a mess of it. Its pretty hard to liberate anyone when the role models are so obviously evil. Its also too bad for the women of Iraq when the men with the power continue to dictate norms for the women. All of this destruction for nothing.


25 May 04 - 12:37 AM (#1193356)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: mack/misophist

Further, theres the matter of the Sunni - Shia split. Iran has almost all the world's Shites; 40 to 50 million of them. Iraq is largely Sunni. The split started with a death and has led to many more. Look up the story of the martyr Hussein. That should explain it.

In metropolitan areas that are in peace. The two can pray in the same mosque. Where tribal friction exists, they fight.

It's such a shame, because, despite Saddam Hussein, Iraq was one of the two secular Muslim states. No more.


25 May 04 - 04:10 AM (#1193436)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Ellenpoly

Thanks from me as well, mack/misophist. Your explanation was clear and concise...something often rare around here...xx..e


25 May 04 - 05:05 AM (#1193450)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Wilfried Schaum

Add to this the Doctrine of the Concensus, which states that whatever the majority of the faithful believe to be true, is true, and you have a mess to deal with.
This description is wrong. Not the majority decides, but the consensus must be unanimous (hadith: My community will never agree in an error).
Consensus (ijma') is the least root of jurisprudence (usul al-fiqh); the first ones being Koran, Hadith (reports of sayings and doings of Muhammad), qiyas (conclusion by analogy).
The split started with a death and has led to many more. The split started before the election of Ali Ibn-Abi-Talib as 4. successor (khalifa) of Muhammad. The shi'a (=party) were the followers of Ali who saw him as the only Muslim fit for khalifa because he was cousin, foster brother, and son in law of the prophet. Furthermore he was considered by them the first follower of Muhammad. Only through his sons the bloodline of the prophet was continued, and so the shi'a always supported his descendants.


25 May 04 - 05:37 AM (#1193457)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Teribus

dianavan - 24 May 04 - 03:12 PM

"... and yes, I fear the Taliban and other radical fundamentalists."

From your posts Dianavan, you appear to fear and distrust the world and it's dog.

mack/misophist - 25 May 04 - 12:37 AM

"Iraq is largely Sunni."

Complete and utter rubbish, Sunni's are and always have been a minority group in Iraq, far out numbered by Iraq's Shia population.

As for your comment:

"It's such a shame, because, despite Saddam Hussein, Iraq was one of the two secular Muslim states. No more."

Again complete and utter rubbish - to name a few:
- Morocco
- Algeria
- Tunisia
- Egypt
- Turkey
- Lebanon
- Pakistan
- Malaysia
- Indonesia

ALL secular muslim States.

dianavan - 25 May 04 - 12:17 AM

"So regardless of who is in power in Iraq, the muslim faith will still be guided by the local religious leader. And irrespective of what the Koran says, women's rights will be dictated by the religious leaders."

Bush's fault? Don't be ridiculous, formerly a secular state under a dictatorship, in the coming months and years, the people of that country will decide, the women of Iraq are not just going to give up what they once had, why should they.

Although a babtised Christian - there is no bloody Christian religious leader on this earth going to dictate to me what I should think and do - that is for me and my conscience to decide.


25 May 04 - 06:08 AM (#1193468)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: greg stephens

Mack/Misophist. I'm sure you are trying to clarify matters, but I really can't let you get away with some of your stuff. You seem to think it's highly significant that Shiites are the majority in Iran, Sunnis in Iraq. This is just not so. Now, I dont know how they conduct censuses in Iraq, but I am absolutely sure(and so is every iraqi I know) that Shiites are the majority in Iraq, easily. This is going to be the big problem in any kind of "transition to democracy". The realiy of the situation is the Kurds are currently more or less autonomous, and in no way will they submit to any Islamist Shiite government if it gets voted in by a majority. Ditto the Sunnis.
    And your statements that Iraqis are Arabic speaking needs a little qualifying. Arab Iraqis, as you might expect, are Arabic speaking. Kurdish iraqis, by and large, dont speak Arabic, or only a few words. Your statement. like a lot of british and American opinion on Iraq, tends to ignore the Kurds because they dont fit easily into most people's view of the situation.The conventional left-liberal anti-Bush line, and the gung-ho pro-Bush position, have one thing in common: they dont accommodate the Kurds very easily!
   Because the Kurds are largely inexplicable to most people, they tend to get ignored. This, i believe, is a big big mistake.
    (I've never been to Iraq, but I know a lot of Iraqis).


25 May 04 - 07:02 AM (#1193491)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

Most of the faithful oppose translating the Koran.

That seems a very questionable assertion indeed. There are numerous translations from Islamic sources, including translations into English published in Saudi Arabia. There are also translations online.


25 May 04 - 07:51 AM (#1193523)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Hrothgar

"Your statement, like a lot of British and American opinion on Iraq, tends to ignore the Kurds because they dont fit easily into most people's view of the situation."

Well, the Iranians, Iraqis, and Turks have problems fitting the Kurds into their views of the situation, too, so what chance do the poor old Poms and Yanks have?

Probably the most reasonable result is to give the Kurds their own country, but I don't want to have to tell that to the abovementioned Iranians, Iraqis, and Turks. Oh, and maybe to the Armenians.


25 May 04 - 08:10 AM (#1193535)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: greg stephens

Hrothgar: you're dead right. The situation the Kurds are in fits in to a list that includes Northern Ireland, Cyprus and Palestine/Israel: problems which seem to defy any attempt to find an easy solution. (Middle Eastern history is not simple. Saladin was a Kurd, not an Arab, for example).
    Sorry if dragging in the Kurds seems to be thread-creep. But I think it's valuable to point out that statements that start "Muslims think...." or ""Arabs are....." or "Iraqis believe...." need reading rather carefully.


25 May 04 - 09:18 AM (#1193595)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: John MacKenzie

To get back to the title of the thread, ie women and Islam/Iraq.
I too know little about the finer points of the religion, but I do find the role of women appears to that of subservience. All the prohibitions that I know of seem to suit a masculine/suppresive viewpoint, and pongs a bit of control freakery. I know that I feel sorry for them, although they may not thank me for my pity.
JGM


25 May 04 - 09:46 AM (#1193618)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: freda underhill

Nine Parts of Desire - the hidden world of Islamic women - by geraldine Brooks, published by Anchor. This great book is written by an Australian journalist who worked for some years in the Middle East.

I have met and interviewed Iraqi women from a range of backgrounds, including Arabs, Turkmen, Kurds and women of both Sunni and Shia background. Some were spohisticated, educated and unveiled. Some were sophisticated and veiled, and some were from very protected backgrounds.

One woman who I will always remember is an older Turkman woman,face weathered from outdoors living, missing teeth, covered with tribal tattoos, who had a wonderful sense of humour. Her extremely beautiful young daughter was educated, intelligent and without the tribal tattoos.

They had both survived an Indonesian fishing boat which sank in the Pacific ocean, the survivors on this occasion were rescued by an Australian navy boat.


25 May 04 - 10:25 AM (#1193652)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Teribus

Indonesian fishing boat - Pacific Ocean? Where was the fishing boat making for? If its destination was Australia then it would have been either the Indian Ocean or Timor Sea wouldn't it?


25 May 04 - 10:31 AM (#1193661)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: GUEST

East Coast of Oz, maybe?


25 May 04 - 10:34 AM (#1193662)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: mack/misophist

Yes, I did forget the Kurds; an oversight for which I must apologize. This makes Iraq even more complex because, as I understand it, their position is unstettled.

As for translating the Koran, yes there are translations, mostly English. Notice that I said 'observant' Muslims, however. My information comes from my copy of the Koran (translated by a Pakistani) and from Palestinian friends. 'Observant' Muslims feel that translation degrades and distorts the message.

Herr Schaum is technically correct in all he says. But he omits the war that began the Shia/Sunni split and all its concommitant ill will. In every day life, the per centage required for the 'Concensus' is ignored. Oratory is content with a majority.

Teribus, also, is technically correct in his list of secular Muslim states. My characterization comes from an article in Jane's a few years ago which further defined these states in terms of how prevalent Sharia was and how dominant religious leadership was.


25 May 04 - 11:23 PM (#1194058)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

Teribus - I fear ignorance but not the world or dogs (except the little, yippy anklebiters). My fear is that the Taliban or other repressive, fanatical religious leaders will severely restrict the rights of Iraqi women, as they did in Afghanistan.

I fear that the rights and freedoms that Americans have always held dear are being stripped away by a government intent on creating fear and chaos at home. I fear that Bush has no game plan save getting his hands on more oil. I fear that people that support the war in Iraq have been motivated by fear of the unknown. These people are commonly called 'control freaks'.


26 May 04 - 10:32 AM (#1194165)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Wilfried Schaum

Most of the faithful oppose translating the Koran.
That seems a very questionable assertion indeed. There are numerous translations from Islamic sources, including translations into English published in Saudi Arabia. There are also translations online.


Well seen, McGrath. But the faithful make a fine difference. The Koran was reveiled for them in clear Arabic language; the translations are not the Holy Koran, but their title is "the meaning of the Holy Koran" and similar expressions, when translated by a Muslim. When a translation has only Koran in the title you can be sure that it was written by an infidel scholar such as Bell, Paret et al.


26 May 04 - 01:49 PM (#1194361)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

But that's the same distinction that applies with the Bible. The translations are handy, but the definitive version is the original text.

Different Christian traditions have a range of ways when it comes to the way they see the Bible.

One thing to remember is that Christians have been around longer in one shape or form - in the Muslim calendar the year is 1425.


26 May 04 - 05:55 PM (#1194555)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

dianavan

I am quite fine without my foreskin, thanks for asking.

sex is much more wonderful and sensitive and there is no cheesy substance lurking under it which makes for bad hygiene and known bad odors.

Male circumcision is a wonderful Jewish and American practice, don't you agree?

By the way, do you think women should wear a veil to cover their faces? Or how about those big things on their heads that cover their faces like in Afganistan?


26 May 04 - 06:02 PM (#1194559)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: mg

I don't know if we should wear veils to cover our faces. I would be o.k. with it actually. I do believe that we, every society, somehow needs limits on how provocitavely women can dress. It contributes to all sorts of problems for the women, and for the men who must resist them..look at how many of our young girls dress....what good can come of it? mg


26 May 04 - 07:03 PM (#1194585)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

Well, if circumcision is "a wonderful Jewish and American practice", it's a wonderful practice you share with Muslims.


27 May 04 - 12:10 AM (#1194612)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

Martin - Are you saying if American men are not circumcised, they are un-American?

Circumcision is another 'outdated' custom that may or may not be hygienic, depending on the man. It certainly, in light of what we know about child psychology, can be described as sexual assault. This explains why you so 'hung up' about hygiene and yet have such a filthy tongue.

It also explains alot about male hostility and aggression. I'd certainly be pissed off if someone did that to me with parental approval. Some cultures even celebrate the rite. How barbaric!

Just goes to show you how we got into this mess in the first place.


27 May 04 - 12:11 AM (#1194613)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: mack/misophist

For what it's worth, I've seen it claimed that no circumcised male has ever had cancer of the penis. Of course, the incidence is very low.


27 May 04 - 12:44 AM (#1194630)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: wilbyhillbilly

Why do women prefer men who are circumcised?



Because they just can't resist anything with 10% OFF.


OOPS!!!! Sorry, just couldn't resist.

whb


27 May 04 - 12:53 AM (#1194632)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: GUEST

How would you know that "sex is much more wonderful and sensitive", if you never had one to begin with, Martin?


27 May 04 - 01:29 AM (#1194643)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

What do you call that worthless piece of skin attached to the penis?




A man!   :>)




Now I suppose I'll be called a man-hater.


27 May 04 - 05:33 PM (#1195378)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: GUEST

You obviously rate the penis but unfortunately for you, obviously, a man is attached to each!


27 May 04 - 06:23 PM (#1195418)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: greg stephens

Dianavan: you claim circumcision makes males hostile, agressive, hung up about hygeine and foul-mouthed. Is this the result of a personal survey, or could you tell us where you got these facts from? Who did the research, how large was the sample etc etc. I think we should know.


27 May 04 - 08:11 PM (#1195480)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

greg - I said that circumcision can be described as sexual assault.
Hostility and rage are logical consequences of sexual assault in childhood.


27 May 04 - 08:31 PM (#1195497)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

I understand Baptists disaprove of child baptism, and think it should wait until people are adults and can decide for themselves. Are there any branches of Judaism or Islam which have a similar belief regarding circumcision?


27 May 04 - 11:53 PM (#1195621)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

greg - It was a joke.


28 May 04 - 03:15 AM (#1195666)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: greg stephens

As was my request to know your research methodology.


28 May 04 - 12:47 PM (#1196008)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

Yes, I have heard that Moslems also circumcise their male babies as well as Jews. However, Moslems in their attempt to suppress females have been known to practice female circumcision.

guest, a stupid remark that was not clever.

dianavan, circumcison of Jewish males is hardly a sexual asualt. It is a time honored tradition and you won't find a hospital in America that doesn't reccommend it for a newborn male. that does not mean, if someone chooses not to have their newborn child circumcised they are Un-American. Your accusations are very emotionally directed at me and are not at all rational.

However, I do understand that a circumcised male makes it hard for you personally to continue your practice of cleaning out the smegma of an uncircumcised penis using your tongue. This was somewhat emotionally and coyly directed at you and was in fact, quite rationaly done, not in rage, but for entertainment purposes only.


28 May 04 - 01:00 PM (#1196026)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Ellenpoly

Entertainment??? That was just GROSS!


28 May 04 - 01:25 PM (#1196044)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

I suppose the idea of that kind of thing is to try to provoke an angry and unconsidered response, which would then provide a justification for further unpleasant posts.


28 May 04 - 01:38 PM (#1196051)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

From a post by a new member, Rabbi-Sol, on another thread:

The wonderful thing about this forum is that we can discuss the issues as rational human beings, with mutual respect, even though many of us are on opposite sides of the issue. It is a lot better than shooting bullets and grenades at each other.


28 May 04 - 01:43 PM (#1196053)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: DougR

My, my, my, have we strayed from the subject of the thread?

Dianavan: if you truly are concerned that the Taliban might take over the governance of Iraq, how would you propose that they be prevented from doing so?

DougR


28 May 04 - 03:41 PM (#1196130)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Don Firth

Reading what Martin Gibson posts is like analyzing feces. It's usually pretty disgusting, it smells bad, and unless you are a medical specialist looking for something pathological, there's nothing to be learned from it.

Don Firth


28 May 04 - 03:58 PM (#1196144)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

But you keep reading them, don't you.

You do so because of your morbid curiousity. Like I said, you wouldn't if you didn't find what I was going to say interesting.

Ladies, a blow job on an uncircumcised male will never be the same for you now, will it?

And that's the way I see it May 28, 2004.


28 May 04 - 04:35 PM (#1196166)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Don Firth

You're the one who is morbid ("of, relating to, or characteristic of disease"), Marty, and henceforth I will not be sullying my mind with your filth. I will make it a point to skip whatever you post because you don't post anything worth reading. You are a swine.

Don Firth


28 May 04 - 04:44 PM (#1196170)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: DougR

Er, ah, back to the subject at hand. Dinavan: I don't want you to overlook my last question to you, okay?

DougR


28 May 04 - 04:46 PM (#1196172)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

Oh boo hoo Mr. Firth/Filth.
I guess my blow job comment hit too close to home for you. Made you a bit squeemish I guess.

Hah!


28 May 04 - 05:08 PM (#1196192)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: GUEST,Shlio

Normally I'd agree with Don, but I must give in to my "morbid curiosity".

Martin, you are fiercely defending male circumcision as it is a religious tradition. I have no problem with that, or the other opinions, eg on hygeine, that you have so graphically provided. How would you answer a mother who wants to get her daughter circumcised because it is a cultural and semi-religious tradition?

And returning to the subject of the thread, I'm confused as to how the Iraqi women should be liberated. Tell them to throw off their veils...leaving them (in the eyes of their community) indecently dressed? Surely the best way to let them choose how to live is, first, to have peace, and secondly, to fund schools in which both Iraqi teachers and others can gradually spread new ideas.

It's impossible to forcibly liberate people from a way of life- they have to do it themselves by accepting new ideas.


28 May 04 - 06:32 PM (#1196241)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

No response to my query about whether there are any Jewish or Islamic communities who favour adult circumcision, the way Baptists favour adult baptism?


28 May 04 - 09:53 PM (#1196391)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

DougR - I don't know the answer to your question but I would hope that Islamic fundamentalists are not handed the reigns of power. Seems to me that Iran is doing everything possible to insure that Iraq falls under their domination. I'm not sure, but I think that if the Shiites get control of Iraq, the role of women in Iraq will be strictly limited. Makes me wonder who exactly will be voting in the new, free election in Iraq.

As to the veil - there are plenty of middle-eastern countries where women are not veiled. It depends a great deal on the religious leaders of the country and the political will to provide education to all.


28 May 04 - 11:28 PM (#1196436)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Jim McCallan

The question I would ponder on, would be what exactly were the safeguards that the Bush Administration took before entering Iraq to ensure this scenario would never arise in the first place. (the Taliban gaining the upper hand in Iraq)

If the majority of the population are Shia, just as in any other democracy then, one would expect the majority to rule. If they are a majority of democratically elected Shias, with a bias towards America, well, what have we actually gained?

One cannot legislate to enforce a change of mindset, I'm afraid, and I don't believe Iraq (or any other, mainly Muslim country) can ever effectually do that.
One can legislate for equal rights; employment, pro choice in all matters relating to the person, etc. But if the democratically elected majority do not pass such laws, where does a democracy then become a dictatorship.

And what rights do 'We' have, to go back in there, and sort it out, again?


29 May 04 - 12:32 PM (#1196533)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: freda underhill

Some women from Moslem countries, who did not wear the veil in their country of origin, but take it up when they move to Western countries. Why? as a reaction to the degradation of women that they see everywhere in advertisements, on billboards, and walking down the street. Many such women regard the veil in a similar way that feminists felt about the old overalls and Tshirt a couple of decades ago - a uniform that says "I am not a sex object". At home, they wear shorts and T shirts like everyone else.

there is so much demonising of people from different cultures - people have walls, views, through which they see. yet everywhere, people are truly so similar.

except for Martin Gibson, who is a one off. Martin, wash your mouth out with soap and water, and go do some household chores as penance.


29 May 04 - 12:50 PM (#1196539)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

Under the Saddam regime, unpleasant as it was, the veil was not generally worn by women, and the restrictions on women prevalent in neighbouring countries such as Saudi Arabia were not in force to anywhere near the same extent. It seems quite probable that this may not be true in the New Iraq.

Rather in the same way that the position of women in Afghanistan deteriorated catastrophically with the defeat of the Russian backed regime by the fighters (including Bin Laden) who had backing from Washington.


29 May 04 - 03:36 PM (#1196638)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Don Firth

Considering the hail of invective that has been address at many nice people on this thread, all coming from one person, I beg your indulgence for a brief side-issue.

My apologies, oddly enough, to Martin Gibson and others. I was in error (a rare and unusual occurrence—it happened once before, in 1954, when I thought I had made an error, but upon re-examination, it turned out I had not, so the fact that I thought I had made an error was, in itself, the error). I find I do have a morbid interest in what it writes, and I quite probably will read what it posts, depending on how morbid I'm feeling when I encounter such deposits.

First of all, a few posts back, I momentarily lost touch with my sense of the absurd. Since my parents were civilized and cultured people, I was raised to grant all persons respect as a matter of course, and not to withdraw that respect from a particular person unless I determined that he or she, by their behavior, was not worthy of it. When I encounter someone who takes the opposite view—that all people are to be regarded with contempt and treated with rudeness and abuse, regardless of how respectable they may actually be—I tend, quite naturally enough, to become indignant. Thus, I lost touch with my sense of the absurd. And Martin Gibson, as all can readily see, is absurd.

In truth, I find Marty quite fascinating. Encountering Marty is rather like when you are walking in the deep forest and come upon a strange insect. The thing has more wings and legs than it can possibly control with its minuscule ganglia. It's attempts to fly are pathetic, and it manages only to hop a few inches at a time, landing in a heap of tangled legs and antennae. It then has to struggle for several minutes to right itself. When it walks, it staggers here and there, totally unable to maintain a straight line, manages to get its legs all braided up, and once again, it topples over, lying there helpless and struggling. And someplace, as you are observing this scatter-footed chimera, you notice that, despite its small size, it emits a foul odor. You wonder: did this diminutive nightmare come about by some outlandish side-trip in the process of evolution? Or is it the grotesque product of a bizarre mutation? You wonder if you should leave it alone, or put it out of its obvious misery by mercifully crushing it under your heel. But with a fundamental reverence for life (and wondering if this thing actually qualifies as a life-form), you shudder, shrug your shoulders, and walk off, leaving it to whatever its fate might be.

When someone acts in a manner that even a slobbering, unwashed, flea-bitten barbarian would find shameful and disgusting, I feel I would be abdicating my responsibility as a cultured and enlightened member of the human race not to call that someone on it and attempt (undoubtedly in vain) to point out a more civilized path.

So, Marty, you don't get off that easy. I will be following your career. Some threads back, as a result of my pointing out where you transgressed the mores of civilized conduct, I had you whining for mercy, and I wasn't even trying then. I'm on your six, buster!

Don Firth


29 May 04 - 04:18 PM (#1196663)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: GUEST

I busted his ass one night on a thread that got deleted. He was gasping for his Jack Daniels after 10 minutes.

Gibson ain't so tough

Just ignore the bastard


29 May 04 - 04:27 PM (#1196672)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

I see he hasn't got his birthday listed in the Members Photos and Info section. So that means no Happy Birthday greetings from those whole hold him in affection here. And no photo either.


29 May 04 - 06:08 PM (#1196745)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

greg - when I said, "greg - It was a joke", I meant to address, Guest.

I have no research methodology at this time.

Don - I really appreciate your dilemma. I, too, have tried to ignore Martin but sometimes he leaves himself wide open. I should also refrain from the act of 'baiting him' but I find it quite satisfying to give him the rope to hang himself. Once he reveals himself for what he is (the definitions are many) I just leave it alone. If he weren't so vile and aggressive, you might be able to consider him harmless but he has a way of turning any serious discussion into personal attacks and then the thread degenerates.

Since children have access to this site, I think Joe or one his clones should be contacted about his vulgarity.

Personally, I think he's pathetic and I pity his family (if he has one). For all I know, he's writing to us from prison. I'm not even sure he's a real person. Has anyone ever met him?


29 May 04 - 06:19 PM (#1196751)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

It did occur to me that he might be a front for someone with an anti-semitic agenda.


29 May 04 - 06:36 PM (#1196763)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Don Firth

Yeah, dianavan and Kevin, I, too, have wondered about Martin Gibson's bona fides (if I can use such an inappropriate expression in relation to something like Marty). Is this a real person? And, if so, what might he really be playing at? His obvious effort to be as offensive as possible is so over the top, it really makes one wonder.

Don Firth


29 May 04 - 06:52 PM (#1196772)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

Guest, you never had me ever gasping for Jack Daniels or anything else except for air after laughing so hard at you.

I don't drink. OK, a little Mogen David on Sunday before dinner.

dianavan, it is obvious you are an angry, America hating, men hating, and Jew hating wench of a woman who constantly must be identified for any newcomers here. Your posturing against all things in American politics and life styles have to be the worst case of someone having a bug up their ass I have ever seen.

If any American Intelligence monitors this site, they already have you pegged.

Go ahead and cry censorship dianavan. If your children are reading this site you are probably not a very good parent. There is much more vulgarity coming from regular posters in fun than I direct at you. You just have very little when it comes to having a way with words.

And as for Don Firth, his new found obsession with me after hours of obvious pondering reveal a very shallow man who brings nothing at all to the party, ecept his own personal witch hunt which he has documented so well. You know Don, you are definately one of the easist to yank their chain here. You have very little sense of humor and are as squeemish as an 11 year old girl. I never see you post anything at all in the music section. I you want to go toe to toe with me and dog me and monitor me, that's your choice, but you will look like an older fool than you already are. Other than that, isn't it time to change your diaper?


29 May 04 - 07:22 PM (#1196791)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton

Well Well!! you mighty warriors.   "Bustin ass"......"Whineing for mercy"....Just listen to yourselves ,this is a discussion forum not a war zone.   If you encounter an idiot ignore him and move on,but dont try and turn this lovely place into a kindergarten.
There are only a few who write here who are worthy of respect,the rest of us are just fumbling around trying to make sense of what we see andwarm ourselves in the glow of some strangers' approval.
All should try to emulate McGrath whos restrained posting I once mistook for sactimony, but now understand to be the sign of a kind heart...Ake


29 May 04 - 07:56 PM (#1196807)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton

Regarding womens rights here in the West. I feel women have lost more than they have gained under our kind of "freedom"
Women are consciously choosing a career before having children,something which aught to be the most fulfilling part of a womans life.
Our materialistic society puts more and more strain on a natural lifestyle.
I hope I dont come across as a dinosaur,but as Judy used to say "Somethings lost and somethings gained in living every day"...Ake


29 May 04 - 08:19 PM (#1196821)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Don Firth

"I never see you post anything at all in the music section." You don't get up in the music section very often, do you, Marty? That's were I hang out about 90% of the time I spend on Mudcat. I've been posting stuff up there for years.   

I don't have a new-found obsession with you, Marty. I've always had a distaste for bullies and those who generally act like rampaging Visgoths at an otherwise very pleasant party. When more mature people try to have a serious discussion, you, who have nothing of value to add, insist on standing in the middle of the floor and shouting for attention, and unless you get it, you get foul-mouthed. You're a punk, Marty. Get a life!

Don FirtH


29 May 04 - 08:22 PM (#1196822)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: DougR

Dianavan: The reason I posted my question was to test your resolve when you said you feared that Iraq might come under the thumb of the Taliban and Iraqi women would suffer, as they did in Afghanstan. To test it further: if armed conflict would be the only thing that would ensure that not happening, one where innocent people as well as the Taliban were injured and killed, would you support it?

DougR


29 May 04 - 08:41 PM (#1196831)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Peace

As a circumcised male, the issue of adult circumcision doesn't affect me personally. However, take lots of drugs to ensure you don't get an erection until the tissue has healed. There was a biblical battle that was won in that manner (enemy was circumcised and thus rendered hors de combat).

Ake: That was said by Judy but written by Joni. How ya doin', buddy? Keeping well, I hope.

Bruce M


29 May 04 - 09:08 PM (#1196844)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton

Hello Brucie..Your right of course,joni it is.
Things are fine in Auld Scotia,but its late and the caillach bhan is walking the road, so Im off to bed. Take care of yourself ..Ake


29 May 04 - 10:17 PM (#1196869)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

DougR - No.

Ake - Children are an important part of most women's lives. You can choose a career and then have children or you can have children then choose a career. Children and a career are not mutually exclusive. On the other hand, some women choose to have a career and become an 'aunty' to the children of others.

In this day and age, its important for women to be able to take care of themselves financially. The idea is to become financially independent so that you will not be dependent on others. Most women I know, realize that expecting men to take care of them and their children is not a guarantee that it will happen.

If a woman wants to have children, she should be prepared to take care of them financially.


30 May 04 - 12:24 AM (#1196914)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

I do not hate Americans, Jews or Men. It just so happens that Martin is all three of the above or at least claims he is. Just because I find him offensive, he tells me, "If any American Intelligence monitors this site, they already have you pegged."

I would consider it a compliment if American Intelligence found me (at this point in time) to be a threat. At least Martin thinks I am a credible threat. Heh - If I am, I'm proud!

Unlike Martin, who kisses the butt of anything that maintains the status quo, I am not afraid to question authority. Poor Martin is really just a coward.


30 May 04 - 05:35 AM (#1196975)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: John MacKenzie

Martin I was glad to welcome you to the fold when you gave up being an annoying guest and became a contentious Mudcatter [I nearly said member] However I think you do yourself no favours when you get dirty and personal, and think you should repress your desire to shock, in most cases it doesn't work.Intelligent and funny posts get you noticed more than rude ones.
As to the pros and cons of male circumcision, I don't believe your statement that all US hospitals endorse the practice, what they almost certainly do encourage, is cleanliness in that area. So cicumcised or not keep it clean, and whether you wash it fast or slow is up to you!
JGM


30 May 04 - 06:28 AM (#1196989)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: freda underhill

In countries where circumcision is not practised, it is customary to pull back the foreskin and wash the head of the penis after urination, and during showering/bathing. Yes there are good things to be said about circumcision, but there are also risks.

See http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/horror/horror.shtml for statistics and references to risks. Some information includes:

Circumcision Surgery Accidents, Complications, and Atrocities
Journal of Urology (Baltimore), vol 153, no 3 part I (March 1995: pp 778-779) states that the rate of accidents is from 1.5% to 15%.
Read the article "Newborn Penile Glans Amputation during Circumcision .." note that the doctor who operated had already performed the operation more than 300 times - so much for experience.

The programme, "It's a Boy," to be screened on Channel 4 this month, includes graphic footage of a circumcision in the Midlands that went disastrously wrong. The 8-day-old baby, circumcised without anaesthetic by a rabbi who is not a doctor, is seen bloodied and screaming in agony during the operation. When it was clear things were going wrong, the rabbi demanded the crew stop filming, but they secretly recorded what followed. The boy developed an infection and ended up in intensive care being pumped with antibiotics and kept alive by oxygen and drips.
The film -- the work of Victor Schoenfeld, the Jewish father of a circumcised son -- also presents details of 2 babies who died as a result of circ and contains an interview with the mother of a third who almost bled to death. It reveals cases of permanent genital disfigurement, claiming that, at a conservative estimate one in 50 circumcisions leads to serious complications. The impact of the film, which also shows Muslim circumcisions, will be intensified by Ch. 4's decision to show it without commercial breaks. --The Observer, London, 3 Sept 1995 Circ Info Network 951011

Pediatrics. 92(6):794-9, 1993 Dec.
The Inconspicuous Penis. Authors: Bergeson PS., Hopkin RJ., Bailey RB Jr., McGill LC., Piatt JP. Department of General Pediatrics and Urology, Phoenix Children's Hospital, AZ.
Abstract OBJECTIVE: To describe the etiology and management of the group of abnormalities referred to as the inconspicuous penis. DESIGN: Analysis of 19 cases seen over a period of 2 years by chart review. SETTING: Children's hospital in a major metropolitan area. PATIENTS: Nineteen boys referred to two pediatric urologists over a period of 2 years with penises that appeared abnormally small, but on palpation and measurement, were found to have a normal shaft with a normal stretched length. Diagnoses included were buried penis, webbed penis, and trapped penis. Patients ages ranged from 1 week to 13 years. FINDINGS: There were eight patients (42%) with trapped penis, and all were complications of circumcision (at age 1 week to 7 months). --trapped-penis

LOSS OF PENIS DUE TO CIRCUMCISION TEL AVIV (AFP) - The parents of a two-year-old child who lost his penis due to an error during circumcision, have turned to the district court of Tel-Aviv, demanding US $800,000 in damages. Circ Info Network 940628

During the course of the circumcision, Dr. Tam, a pediatrician, amputated approximately 30% of the distal glans penis and transected the glandular urethra. A less than successful attempt was made to reattach that which had been excised. The Plaintiff (an infant) has undergone 4 corrective surgeries and requires at least one further surgery at this time. Circ Info Network 950107

Allen A. Ervin was born in July 1985 and had been on life support since December 1985, when his brain was damaged from oxygen deprivation during circumcision. The Anesthesiologists who attended to Allen during the circumcision settled the case for $435,000 and agreed to lifetime payment of his medical bills. He died at Spartanburg Regional Medical Center on Wednesday, three weeks before his 7th birthday.

My son, Jacob, was born normal and healthy at Providence Hospital in Anchorage Alaska in 1986, he was routinely circumcised on his second day of life. A few days later, we brought Jacob back to the hospital because an infection had developed at the circumcision site. A decision was made by his pediatrician to hospitalize him and administer antibotics. The next morning, he began to have seizures that went untreated. Twenty-six hours after entering the hospital, he stopped breathing during a massive seizure. As a result my son suffered profound brain damage. Today Jacob is almost ten years old, he requires 24 hour a day care as he will for the rest of his life.

& other articles.

circumcision is not necessarily the answer to all male problems, as you can see, in many cases it is the beginning of them.

regards

freda


30 May 04 - 06:32 AM (#1196991)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: George Papavgeris

Ignore, folks, ignore... A troll by any other name is still a troll. I said so in another thread and he/she-who-knows pretended he/she didn't notice. Sure he/she's disgusting, but then so are other things in life. Just step over it, not in it. If humans examined minutely every turd they meet on the way they'd never get anywhere. Leave such examination to lower life forms.


30 May 04 - 06:55 AM (#1197004)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: freda underhill

good point, El G.


30 May 04 - 11:27 AM (#1197095)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

freda - Thanks for the post. I was too lazy to do the research. I am confused about something you wrote. Was Jacob your son or was this a quote from an article?


30 May 04 - 12:29 PM (#1197109)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

As long as dianavan and Don Firth keep coming back for more, so be it.

Yes, dianavan, you are too lazy to do the research most all of the time. I do not kiss the butt of the status quo, but have enjoyed many friends, my job, and life in America for being able to work within the system, instead of trying to be an outcast in it. That's not being a coward. I call it being extremely happy and comfortable in life while you are looking for a way to disagree with it. One day you will realize that your attitude accomplished nothing and really had very little impact on anything, especially your own happiness. You in my book are a complete whining loser.

Giok, you will find that many of my posts are responses to complete bullshit daydreams of certain extreme far left liberal posters who have no handle on what life in the real world is like. True, shock value can get them to take notice. It works. Again, it's mostly all entertainment for me while I wait for something like the dryer to finish or my wife to get ready to go out for dinner.

As for keeping it clean, good practice. However, much easier for the circumcised.

Freda, your article would play well in the National Enquirer. Or in a Nazi hate flyer. It is so no the norm. It's really lame and far from the world's norm. It's just another sad, morbid story that you obviosuly like to cling to as a sad, old woman.

Lastly, Don Firth, I have not at all been shouting. I quitely make my comments that hit so close to home for you. Take a look and again you will see that as usual in this thread you attacked me personally first. All because my opinions differ from you and you don't like the way that I present them. Well fuck yourself. Calling me a punk is lame. I'm an adult enjoying the world for what it is, working for a large corporation, putting a son through college, raising a family, taking care of my aged mother, playing lots of music with fine people, singing in my temple's choir, and generally having a good old time. Have you changed that diaper of yours yet?


30 May 04 - 12:51 PM (#1197125)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Don Firth

No, Marty. As before, I didn't get on your case until you got abusive, insulting, and foul-mouthed when others didn't accept your opinions. Adult? Obviously not. And as far as diapers are concerned, intellectually and emotionally you are still very much in the diaper stage. One tantrum after another. I just poke you a little bit, and you do a marvelous job of displaying your level of maturity.

Don Firth


30 May 04 - 01:02 PM (#1197128)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

Ah c'mom Martin - You dislike me because I'm not a Zionist, I don't like shaving my legs and I refused to have my son circumcised.

I actually think your ideas make for interesting discussion its your filthy language I object to. When you resort to personal attacks on people, they have only two choices: 1) ignore 2) give you a taste of your own medicine

Here's some more rope, Martin. Go hang yourself.


30 May 04 - 01:26 PM (#1197134)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: freda underhill

No, it was from the article, diana, I don't have son called jacob!


30 May 04 - 01:36 PM (#1197141)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Peace

freda is anything but a sad old woman. She is talented, smart and egalitarian--I will posit and argue that she is in the top 2% of the thinkers who post to the 'cat. Wish I had half her brains. You are way far wrong on that, Martin. Way far. In no way is she racist, and I know that for fact. It's not an assumption on my part.

Bruce Murdoch


30 May 04 - 06:47 PM (#1197342)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

Brucie, I don't recall calling Freda a racist. Not in those terms. Somewhat sad though to me, but I respect the fact that you know her better.

Actually, dianavan, that is only a small percentage of the reasons, but far from all of them. I never swallow any medicine you give me. As far as foul talking, what the fuck? Deal with it. Or don't. Foul language is only a perception.

As far as Don firth getting on my case, who made you my monitor? Personally, I don't really care who does and doesn't here accept my opinions. I don't see this as a contest. I don't care who is keeping score. 4 out of 5 people in a room can have the same opinion and that doesn't make it right. Maturity? You're right. You are way to old of a man for me. Your level of maturity (in your own mind) is what I will never take seriously. It's called being a blowhard.

Lastly, as I have said before, there is reality and there is fiction. Martin Gibson is fiction. You argue with a character. Maybe to some degree, an alter ego, but when I shut down my computer or go visit somne other site he really does dematerialize. I come to the Internet to get information from known or dependable web sites, get entertainment from others (like here), or places like ebay to practice capitalism for some of my hobbies. I know the arguement is that there are real people here, but there are also people who are not real here.

I just won't fall in to the trap of the Internet having more reality than life itself. Some of you are living a very two dimensonal life.

Guess what. I'm not.


31 May 04 - 02:06 PM (#1197730)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Don Firth

So, whatever your real name is, Martin Gibson is not a real person, is that it?

It's my contention that the vast majority of people are fine, decent folks with good instincts, and are generally kind and benevolent. For the most part, what you see is pretty much what they are. I don't believe that most people actually want to be offensive to others, and if they find they have inadvertently offended someone or been rude to them, they are often overwhelmed with a sense of shame and remorse, and go to great lengths to try to make amends.

But of course, one can never be sure. There are those whose character (or lack thereof) is such that the only thing that keeps them from being outright barbarians and obvious sociopaths is social pressure and fear of reprisals. They know that if they follow their more savage inclinations, they will be shunned by other members of the community, including their own families, and find themselves outcasts.   So it's fear of the consequences that keeps them from revealing their true character.

However, in a situation where such a person can remain anonymous, often that's where their true nature comes out. Without fear of repercussions and reprisals, they throw off the social constraints they find so confining and act in a manner that reveals how coarse, crude, and brute-like they really are. This kind of person is almost invariably a bully, and he does his bullying only when he thinks he can get away with it. He has a cruel streak, but fundamentally, he's a coward.

Some of us post under our own names (as I do), willing to accept full responsibility for what we post. Others use a consistent "handle," but often don't go to any great pains to hide their true names, and they, too, are willing to own what they post. There are those who post as "GUEST." These folks, more often than not, are either newcomers or only occasional visitors and are perfectly benevolent. There are others, however, including a few who do use a consistent handle but reveal very little of themselves, who are anything but benevolent. Trolls and disruptors. Remaining anonymous, they feel safe in letting their true nature ooze forth.

All of which is by way of preamble. Martin Gibson, if the family and friends you speak of knew the real nature of your character, the side of yourself that you have revealed here, you life would undoubtedly not be anywhere near as pleasant as you claim it is. And if the temple where you observe the Sabbath knew what kind of a pig you truly are, they would first purify the place, and then bar you from ever entering again.

Don Firth

P.S:   I wear my age with pride. I've accomplished things in my life and I continue to do so. What are you doing with yours?


31 May 04 - 03:48 PM (#1197796)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: John MacKenzie

This is getting silly, and should cease forthwith!
JGM


31 May 04 - 04:06 PM (#1197817)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

So "Martin Gibson is not a real person"? That fits in with my impression. So am I right in suspecting that, behind the front we've been presented with, there is actually someone with an anti- Jewish purpose in mind? After all, there are precedents for this kind of thing.


31 May 04 - 04:07 PM (#1197818)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk

Okay, Martin, that's it. You have gone too far. I demand satisfaction. I say we both log in RIGHT NOW to the dueling website at Bang!you'redead.com and have this out, mouse to mouse, and may the slower hand fall! Where do you get the fucking gall to assert that the Internet is NOT the ultimate reality????????????!@@@@$@! The rest of life is just a pale imitation of what happens on your computer screen and you know it. You're just trying to fuck with people's minds here, and I intend to put a stop to it.


31 May 04 - 05:26 PM (#1197867)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

Little Hawk, forget it. I know you are having a good time with this.

As for Don Firth, his life is so seriosuly involved with this that he has to stick out his worn out chest and constantly try to taunt me.

It doesn't work, Don you old douche bag, you. You are so far involved with me you can't sleep nights, let alone stay on topic. I laugh at how much time he spends trying to whip me.

Don, you are a loser. You havent' accomplished much in this thread either.

Giok, will it cease now, or will the old fool keep trying to lecture me. Am I to radical for the radicals?


31 May 04 - 05:39 PM (#1197876)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, I really look back fondly to back when you and Chongo Chimp were trying to one-up each other over who represented Chicago best.


31 May 04 - 05:51 PM (#1197892)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Peace

Martin and LH: Let's don't start with the hotdogs again. I get the feeling I was second in that argument despite being right about Montreal steamies. It grieves me to this day, months later, that the self-deluded actually THINK Chicago hotdogs can compare. (I don't friggin' wanna hear it!)

Love, peace and steamies.

Bruce M


31 May 04 - 05:55 PM (#1197896)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk

I've never had either a Chicago hotdog OR a Montreal steamie. Weep for me!


31 May 04 - 06:23 PM (#1197915)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: GUEST,Sam Hall

Martin Gibson has a problem. Click here.


31 May 04 - 06:25 PM (#1197917)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Peace

GUEST, Sam Hall: That is a picture of George W Bush. How DARE you show that in public!!!


31 May 04 - 06:29 PM (#1197921)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Amos

So it is, but ya gotta wonder what he is doing with his hands...


31 May 04 - 06:30 PM (#1197923)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk

What in GOD's NAME are those two men in that picture doing????


31 May 04 - 06:38 PM (#1197928)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Don Firth

Looking for tapeworms?

Don Firth


31 May 04 - 08:51 PM (#1198028)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

That's your head Don. Bet it makes a popping sound when you get it out of there.

Hey, Brucie, speaking of Iraqui women and the Koran, is there also a version of a Kosher Polish Sausage up there? Here we have what's called the Maxwell Street Polish which is the next step beyond a hot dog. It's got plenty of girth (yes girls), is grilled and covered with bright yellow American style mustard and covered with grilled onions.

Oh, they are so delightful.

Now, back to Iraqui women and the Koran.........................brought to you by Don Firth's tirade against people who don't think like him and don't want to.


31 May 04 - 10:06 PM (#1198077)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Peace

Indeed there is. It has a gang of spellings--kubassa (or something like that), and it is goood. I like it with Keen's hot mustard and fried (grilled) onions. Yep. We got liftoff. How are ya, Martin? Good here. My problem at the moment is that I'm gettin' better lookin' everyday and there isn't one damn thing I can do about it. For your info. Later.

Bruce M


31 May 04 - 10:13 PM (#1198085)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk

You too, Bruce? Man, that is scary. Spooky even!

Martin, I note that you are spelling "Iraqui" the same way I used to until I got pestered about it so much by teribus that I changed the spelling to "Iraqi" to make him stop pestering me about it.

I suggest you go to every political thread possible and keep repeating the word "Iraqui" over and over and over at every available opportunity. Start threads with "Iraqui" in the title.    Teribus won't bother you, because he probably thinks you are beyond reasoning with, but it'll probably drive him right nuts anyway.


31 May 04 - 10:14 PM (#1198086)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

Brucie

Do you think any Iraqui women would like a Polish Sausage or kubassa, after checking with the Koran of course if it was permissible?


31 May 04 - 10:41 PM (#1198099)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Ebbie

Here's what I know about Martin Gibson:

* He loves both Martins and Gibsons.
* He was born about 1950.
* He has at least one child.
* He loves his wife and speaks respectfully of her.
* He used to be interested in music, especially country and western.
* His main musical influences were Waylon Jennings and Buck Owens.
* He always was a bit foul mouthed but he used to be able to control it.

What went wrong? Dunno.


31 May 04 - 11:09 PM (#1198124)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk

It's Chicago. The place has a brutalizing effect on people. That's my theory, anyway.

Iraqui, Iraqui, Iraqui. I love it.


01 Jun 04 - 01:14 AM (#1198154)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: DougR

Thank you, Dianavan, for answering my question. So you are "terribly" concerned that the Taliban might impose terrible restrictions on women in Iraq, were they to become the government, but you wouldn't support armed force to prevent it.

Okey dokie.

DougR


01 Jun 04 - 01:40 AM (#1198159)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk

Well, the USA both established the Taliban in Afghanistan (in place of the Russians and their surrogates) and later went to war against the Taliban...when they proved uncooperative regarding an oil route from the Caspian. So what did it all have to do with the rights of Afghani women? Nada. It had to do with strategic interests. Therefore, I think Dianavan's concern over the women's plight is understandable, but it doesn't reflect much on American military policy one way or another. The USA does not invade countries in order to free persecuted women, Doug. :-)

So, what was your point again?


01 Jun 04 - 01:44 AM (#1198160)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: LadyJean

A friend of mine, a devout Episcopalian, went to Egypt. After a couple of days, she got tired of brushing sand out of her hair, and bought a white cotton veil, which she wore on her head for the rest of the trip. It was also useful for covering her face during sandstorms.
The veil was a practical garment, that gained religious significance.
When I see Islamic women in the U.S. with their heads covered in polyester, I find myself yearning to scream, ARE YOU CRAZY! THAT'S SYNTHETIC! YOU MUST FEEL LIKE YOU STUCK YOUR HEAD IN A BROILER! There are no sandstorms in Pittsburgh.


01 Jun 04 - 01:47 AM (#1198162)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

DougR - I said, "Of course I fear the control of the Taliban but I'm not sure how or if the American idea of democracy in Iraq will or will not effect the customs."

I also said, "... and yes, I fear the Taliban and other radical fundamentalists."

...and, "Yes, I know that democracy must come from the people and cannot be imposed. Thats why it is so shortsighted of the U.S. govt. to think they can liberate Iraq. What happens to the culture? What will it mean for women? I'm sure the religious leaders will still be in place."

...and, "So regardless of who is in power in Iraq, the muslim faith will still be guided by the local religious leader. And irrespective of what the Koran says, women's rights will be dictated by the religious leaders."

also - "As to the veil - there are plenty of middle-eastern countries where women are not veiled. It depends a great deal on the religious leaders of the country and the political will to provide education to all."

So - It doesn't matter if the U.S. or any other country uses armed force to prevent it. It will only result in the loss of innocent lives. It is absolutely pointless to bring so-called to democracy to Iraq with armed force. Cultures change very slowly and only when the people are given equal access to education.

Next time, try reading the thread instead of jumping in just to put someone down. Your summary of my statements, suck.

Do you think we should you use armed force to liberate women? If so, perhaps we should start at home.


03 Jun 04 - 01:05 AM (#1198964)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

I want to keep this thread alive because I want to know what DougR has to say.

Do you advocate the use of arms against men in North America that do not believe women should be liberated?


03 Jun 04 - 05:21 AM (#1199044)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Teribus

akenaton - 29 May 04 - 07:56 PM

"Regarding womens rights here in the West. I feel women have lost more than they have gained under our kind of "freedom"

So is dismissed the greatest accomplishment of the twentieth century - the emancipation and empowerment of women. The flooding into the political, social and economic sectors of life of all that previously untapped energy, talent and promise.

Mind you, from someone who yearns to be cast back to Stone Age - What else would you expect.

Little Hawk,
Far from driving me nuts, I find it highly amusing that someone who posts so much about a place cannot even be bothered to learn the correct spelling of the place they are talking about.

Oh, by the way, your afirmed belief that the US established the Taliban - Simply NOT TRUE. Assisted them yes, established them NO there is a difference, quite a marked one at that.


03 Jun 04 - 08:37 AM (#1199136)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton

Teribus...Im surprised by that post ,from one whom I supposed to be an old fashioned "one nation " conservative,with decent values.
Most intelligent women I have spoken to,feel the pendulum has swung too far,and the very important job of nurturing children is now given no status. In fact it is rapidly becoming an economic necessity,for women either to forgoe having a family, or farming them off to strangers, to enable them to continue working.
Capitalism is like a spiders web , with money the glue that traps us all,and makes us do things which conflict with the true gifts available to us,and the happiness we can all enjoy from these gifts.
Of course I would not like to be sent back to Stone Age,but I see that time as the golden age of humanity,when we were really free.
Free to enjoy the natural gifts of life,without all the filth of politics, religion or any other form of manipulation....Ake


03 Jun 04 - 09:06 AM (#1199164)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Teribus

"Of course I would not like to be sent back to Stone Age,but I see that time as the golden age of humanity,when we were really free.
Free to enjoy the natural gifts of life,without all the filth of politics, religion or any other form of manipulation"

Well then Ake, that is contrary to what you said you desired in another of your posts (can't off hand remember which thread).

But for the remainder, you seem to look back at that time from a certain perspective. What you say about that age is of course perfectly correct - Provided you were the male of the tribe who was big enough, strong enough, and clever enough, with the ability to weald his club faster, more accurately and more often than anyone else - in other words the Boss/Clan Chief/Pack Leader call it what you will - TRUE????

If on the other hand, you were just one of the other Oiks, you would experience precious little humanity or freedom. The natural gifts of life and nature that would be thrown your way would be those encountered during your allotted chores. Aplenty you would experience the sharp end of all the filth of politics and religion having been manipulated from cradle to the grave. I believe that being one of the Oiks in those times meant doing exactly as the "Leader" told you to do, and if some god, or other, required a sacrifice and you had no captives from some other family - Ake, ol' buddy, as one of the Oiks, your name would be in the hat - Not the "Leaders".


03 Jun 04 - 11:03 AM (#1199281)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: McGrath of Harlow

There have been any number of "Stone Age" cultures over the past half-million years or so, and they haven't all been the kind of Hollywood sexist fantasy version of the Flintstones that Teribus described there.

Most of the time human beings have lived on this planet, by a long long way, we were living in "Stone Age" cultures. In some ways our present way of doing things may be better, but it'd be very arrogant to assume that in all ways that is true. That includes how we organise societal relationships between men and women.

Some of the nastiest societies we are aware in the whole of history have been versions of our modern technological culture. And that includes the way they have organised societal relationships between men and women.


03 Jun 04 - 12:23 PM (#1199376)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton

McGrath as usual makes, the point very well.
Teribus, although there is some truth in what you say ,I would remind you, that you, are looking back from the perspective of the present day, through the mists of conditioning that we have been fed over the last few hundred years.
That conditioning contains the need for a woman to "fulfill her self" through becoming a cog in the capitalist treadmill...What a con!!!
Anyway as you appear to be a "leader",as opposed to an Oik like me ,
I suggest you get your big club out and get some practise in before Osamas's boys arrive.
Start with Doug and Martin,and keep everybody happy....Ake


03 Jun 04 - 12:33 PM (#1199388)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

Hi ebbie

close, but not quite right.

I actually have two sons, not one.

I love country, but not so much western except Bob Wills and the texas Playboys. No one calls it country and western anymore. that's out dated. I also love bluegrass.

I did not stop liking music and have no idea where you get that idea. I actively play banjo in a bluegrass band and play guitar and bass and sing tenor harmonies in many different jams in the area.

I can always control talking dirty. When I want to, or when I don't fucking want to. see?

As far as those who find my spelling of "Iraqi" entertaining, and to those who have a problem with my language, to please have a fucking Iraqui nice day.

dianavan, isn't it time for a shave?


03 Jun 04 - 03:13 PM (#1199555)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton

Maybe a chance here to discuss the status of women in "primitive" or tribal societies,as opposed to their place in capitalist "democracies"
This discussion could have a bearing on our understanding of the Islamic .....Western democracy conflict....Ake


03 Jun 04 - 03:49 PM (#1199583)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton

Sorry to hog the thread,but Martin Gibson seems to be diverting people away from a serious topic.
In reference to Martins' posts on the subject of women,it says a lot about him,that he seems to see fucking as a term of abuse...Ake


03 Jun 04 - 04:10 PM (#1199595)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Once Famous

You have a penis in your ear on that one, Ake.

You sure don't have a fucking clue.

Undies in a bunch, huh?


04 Jun 04 - 08:51 AM (#1200137)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Wolfgang

Since this thread has (in some posts) turned to the role of women in Islamic countries in general, I post here a letter from an Iranian women she wrote when Michel Foucault in October 1978 greeted the Mullahs' taking power in Iran as a 'possibilty of a political spirituality'.

Atoussa H.'s Letter to Le Nouvel Observateur, 6.Nov.1978

Living in Paris, I am deeply upset by the comments used often by the French Left to address the arrival of an 'Islamic government' replacing the Shah's despotic regime. Michel Foucault, for example, seems to be moved by the 'Islamic spirituality' (no. 727, October 16) which is supposed to replace the brutal dictatorship, according to him, for the better. After 25 years of silence and oppression, should the Iranian people only have the choice between the Savak (the Shah's secret police, W. H.) and religious fanaticism? To have an idea of what Qur'an's spirituality, literally applied by Khomeini's moral order, signifies, it is worthwhile to re-read some of the original text. [...] From 'Surat 2': 'Your wives are like a field for you, Come to your fields as often as you want.' To clarify: Man is the sovereign, woman the slave, he can use her according to his whims, and she has nothing to say. Originated in the Prophet's jealous guarding of his wife Aisha, women must wear the veil. This does not just concern spiritual ideas, but a choice of society. These days unveiled women are often insulted and the young Muslims don't hide that in the regime they want, women can do nothing but to shut up. He has written also that the minorities have a right to liberty under the condition that they do not harm the majority. When do minorities begin to harm?

Spirituality? Return to popular sources? Saudi Arabia claims itself as the source of Islam. And the hands of thieves and the heads of lovers fall [...] One could say that the Western left is weary enough of humanism to find Islam desirable... For others. Many Iranians such as myself are distressed at the idea of an 'Islamic government.' They know what it means. Everywhere in Iran, Islam has always served the feudal and pseudo-revolutionary oppression. Often too, as in Tunisia, Pakistan and Indonesia, Islam - alas - is the only means of expression available to the oppressed people. The progressive Left in the West must realize what kind of barrier the Islamic religion can become in the societies eager for change, and not allow themselves to be seduced by a remedy that is perhaps worse than the illness.

Wolfgang


04 Jun 04 - 12:56 PM (#1200358)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: akenaton

Wolfgang..I have never heard anyone support Islamic Fundamentalism on these threads.
There does however, have to be an alternative to the meat grinding machine of capitalism to give women a fulfilled life. there should also be an alternative for men, but that seems a long way off.
Women should be able to bear and nurture a child,if they so wish, without undue financial considerations...Ake


04 Jun 04 - 01:43 PM (#1200398)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: DougR

Dianavan: you posted a statement, "If the U. S. is successful in establishing democracy in Iraq, what will they do about religion? About women's rights?" I'm paraphrasing but I think that's very close.

If the U. S. is successful in establishing democracy in Iraq it will be up to the Irquis to determine the answers to both those questions. The U. S. will not have a policy role in Iraq after June 30, 2004.

Regarding your rather snide remark about my not reading the full post, I say horse pucky! YOU are the one who introduced the topic of how terrible it would be for women were the Taliban to become the government in Iraq, not I. You obviously think it's terrible, but not terrible enough to use force to prevent it.

DougR


04 Jun 04 - 02:24 PM (#1200438)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Little Hawk

Wars are not fought to rescue women from oppressive social conditions. Wars are fought for GAIN...of territory, strategic resources, financial considerations, and the exercise of military-industrial power. If you wish to solve all the terrible problems in the World by launching wars, Doug, there are many more places left yet to attack...including your own home town (or mine) with its drug addicts, unwed mothers, housebreakers, and wife beaters. Every place I've ever heard of has some terrible problems. Wars don't solve them, they add to them...tremendously. What does solve problems is peace, dialogue, education, economic improvement for the general public, and good social programs. If you believe in imposing what you think is "good" at the point of a gun then you would agree with Mao Tse-Tung as to how social change might best be achieved in the World.

What I'm saying is simply this...you are sniping at Dianavan in a way that is irrelevant to the subject of the discussion. The USA did not attack Afghanistan in order to free its women...but the US administration did use the condition of Afghan women as a convenient propaganda device to engender support for its military actions...and that is what you are doing too...only you really mean it, I imagine. They certainly didn't. They just used it.


05 Jun 04 - 12:59 AM (#1200798)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

DougR - Do you think democracy can exist in a non-secular government where women are not given the opportunity to vote? Can democracy exist in a country where women are not given equal access to education? Just what kind of democracy does the U.S. want to bring to Iraq? I don't think the U.S. gives a shit about democracy.

I wonder if the first 'free and open' election in Iraq will feature 'dangling chads'?


05 Jun 04 - 01:23 AM (#1200807)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: LadyJean

Women couldn't vote in Switzerland until very recently. They still can't in one canton. But people call Switzerland a democracy.


05 Jun 04 - 03:33 AM (#1200830)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

Is the government of Switzerland secular?

Are the women given equal access to education?


07 Jun 04 - 06:27 AM (#1201806)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: Wolfgang

Switserland/Liechtenstein:

- Women can now vote in all cantons.
- The government in Switserland is secular (same big partie' coalition sharing government, ministers and presidency since roughly the 1930s)
- Women have equal access to education

Switserland/Liechtenstein was an interesting sub-problem of direct democracy (and made me mostly an enemy of direct democracy). The first motions to give women the right to vote came as early as in most other European countries. But the last word in a direct democracy on these matters lies with those allowed to vote at that time, that is/was the men. That was a constitutional deadlock in these two coutries because no decision of the parliament could overrule the voters themselves.

If you think that sounds silly, consider that in all countries of the world some groups are not allowed to vote, in Germany for instance minors, mentally unfit and convicted criminals. So, if in a direct democracy, the rules who should be allowed to vote are to be changed (for example to allow voting from 18 years on instead of from 21), in the vote deciding a new group should be allowed to vote those profiting from this vote are not allowed to vote yet.

In Liechtenstein, for instance, they had a referendum for women voting rights about every four years since early in the 20th century. The count, the churches, the trade unions, all relevant political parties and everybody else of importance literally begged the voting body (of men) to allow women to vote. Time after time, the men declined until very recently.

Those Swiss cantons having the most direct rule of voting (all those allowed to vote coming once a year to one very big place and giving a show of hands to all relevant matters) were the last to allow women vote (and that only after heavy financial pressures from the central government).

Direct democrcy can be sometimes really conservative in the sense of resistance to necessary change.

Wolfgang


07 Jun 04 - 09:45 PM (#1202399)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi women and the Koran
From: dianavan

Thanks Wolfgang - Makes me wonder alot about what democracy will look like in Iraq.