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21 Jul 04 - 04:49 PM (#1230871) Subject: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Peace As the American election campaigning begins, I wondered what constitutes patriotism. And I wondered what catters thought. |
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21 Jul 04 - 04:54 PM (#1230876) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Rabbi-Sol For God, Country, Bush, Cheney, & Haliburton $$$$$. Anything less gets you a one way ticket to Guantanamo. SOL ZELLER |
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21 Jul 04 - 05:08 PM (#1230885) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: TheBigPinkLad Whatever it is I hope it doesn't catch on in Canada. |
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21 Jul 04 - 05:39 PM (#1230900) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: artbrooks I remember an oath I once swore, to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic." All else is commentary. |
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21 Jul 04 - 05:49 PM (#1230905) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Bill D why,it's simple...the bigger the flag you wave, the more patriotic you are! |
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21 Jul 04 - 05:52 PM (#1230906) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Ebbie My definition of a patriot doesn't boil down to a catchy phrase. I think a patriot, in whatever country s/he/it finds her/him/itself is one who is mindful of the good one can bring to that country in its efforts to become or remain an ever-increasingly good place to live, for all. In Juneau, Alaska, there is a current controversy. In the July 4th parade, there was a man in a whole-head mask of Bush. He carried a plaque that read: I think I served. On his chest and back were the phrases: Commit Troops. Cut Benefits. Well! The debris hit the fan. A myriad of letters to the editor are debating the issue fore and aft. Some are saying that that person was "UnAmerican." "Unpatriotic". "Disrespectful." "Cowardly". "Confusing to children". "Blatantly political" (Ha! As if the bunting and pictures and the military contingents and politicians running for office weren't!). At this point, the parade committee has said that from now on, they will monitor for "appropriate" activities and entries. And of course, most of us are saying Fie upon you!, that there is no more appropriate forum for dissent than an occasion that addresses and celebrates our nation, good and bad. One of my favorite lines in the song 'America, the Beautiful' is "(May) God mend thine every flaw". With the proviso that it is man who must mend the flaws, I think it's a wonderful precept. |
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21 Jul 04 - 05:57 PM (#1230910) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Peace So, do patriots have the right/responsibility to criticize their country/government? |
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21 Jul 04 - 06:02 PM (#1230911) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Bert They sure do Brucie. And as an American by choice, MY definition of patriotism is 'love and respect for the American people' |
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21 Jul 04 - 07:22 PM (#1230944) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: McGrath of Harlow A patriot would be someone who takes the mistakes his or her country makes personally, and is willing to try to do something about it, even at personal risk. Going round waving the flag in places and times when that doesn't involve any risk has nothing to do with patriotism. |
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21 Jul 04 - 07:24 PM (#1230947) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: TS ah.. yes..Patriotism...one of the few states of mind that can bring fellow Countrymen together, have them rally around their Flag and Leaders..but...in an instant it can pit the very same people against one another in a bloody battle over..its very being...neighbour vs neighbour...brother vs. brother.. |
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21 Jul 04 - 07:26 PM (#1230949) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: DougR There you go again, Ebbie! Putting ALL the responsibility on MEN! Why can't women mend every flaw too? DougR |
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21 Jul 04 - 07:32 PM (#1230954) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: michaelr There you go again, Doug! Sideswiping an important discussion with inane drivel! Why can't you say anything of substance? Michael |
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21 Jul 04 - 07:39 PM (#1230961) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: McGrath of Harlow Civil Wars are invariably fought between patriots. |
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21 Jul 04 - 07:42 PM (#1230963) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Amos There are definitions in most dictionaries, but how you choose to build them in to your life is highly subjective. So this gets to the level of asking "what is an opinion?", and everyone will have one. But since you're doing the survey, mHo is that patriotism is a hope of extending individual virtues into the realm of group transactions on a national scale, and helping those virtues become ingrained in the culture. I think this country really does try very hard to do this, and institutionalized that effort in such things as the Declaration of Independence and the Consittution and the Bill of Rights. Unfortunately, some people don't know the difference between genuine virtues -- like honesty, justice, helpfulness and so on -- and moral conventions built on knee-jerk reactions and the desire to control others. Shame, really. Because they call it patriotism as well, and sometimes it veers closer to the opposite. A |
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21 Jul 04 - 07:47 PM (#1230966) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: George Papavgeris Patriotism is simply love of country. And like any other kind of love, when it is blind, it is eventually detrimental to the loved one. So yes, Brucie, the responsibility to acknowledge and deal with the loved one's faults is definitely there. Willingness to sacrifice on's own interests (and even life) for the security and improvement of the loved one is the highest offering one can make. Blindly loving someone and ignoring their faults will only make them worse. |
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21 Jul 04 - 08:06 PM (#1230979) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Bill D "Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy." ~ William Ralph (Dean) Inge "To me a real patriot is like a real friend. Who's your real friend? It's the person who tells you the truth. That's who my real friends are. So, you know, I think as far as our country goes, we need more people who will do that." ~ Bill Maher, The San Francisco Chronicle (19 February 2003). 'Time' right for Maher comeback "Law and Order is like patriotism -- anyone who comes on strong about patriotism has got something to hide; it never fails. They always turn out to be a crook or an asshole or a traitor or something." ~ William H. (Bill) Mauldin |
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21 Jul 04 - 08:23 PM (#1230983) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Peace Good thoughts, all. |
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21 Jul 04 - 10:26 PM (#1231052) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Joe Offer It's an interesting question. It seems that some people think that anybody who disagrees with them, is unpatriotic. I was going to say that they think that anyone who disagrees with authority is unpatriotic - but the conservatives sure didn't think that way during the Clinton Administration, although they certainly agree with the Bush People now. Other people may not agree with their opponents, but they believe true patriotism requires them to accept diversity. I work a lot in the Catholic Church, and I find the same is true there. There are some people, mostly conservatives, who have a very narrow view of things and think that anyone outside that perspective is not worthy to be called Catholic (or to receive communion). The Pope tends toward that sort of rigidity, but he's not as far gone as the Bushistas. -Joe Offer- |
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21 Jul 04 - 10:37 PM (#1231060) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Little Brother A patriot is anyone who will fight and give his life for his country. That and pay taxes. |
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21 Jul 04 - 10:49 PM (#1231067) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Peace How many of us consider ourselves to BE patriotic. (I'm pretty sure I am. I don't know that I would allow patriotism to lead me into an unjust war, but then I keep praying for no war at all. I suppose I wouldn't know until the rubber hit the road.) What prompted this thread from me was a passing memory of bumper stickers from the '60s which read, "My country. Love it or leave it" with the implication being that if one didn't love everything one's country did, one was less than patriotic. Many friends from those days stated that it was one's responsibility to protest perceived wrongs because to allow the wrong to continue without being protested would be 'letting one's country down' in a very real sense of the words. That is why I'm interested. We have such a spectrum of posters here represemnting every shade and area of the political spectrum that I expected to get the quality and variety of responses that have been forthcoming. There, I've rambled. However, I would like also to hear from people in Europe and Oz and elsewhere, too. Thank you. |
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21 Jul 04 - 11:03 PM (#1231080) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: mack/misophist Better than any one else, W C Fields pointed out the problem: 'My country, right or wrong' is like saying 'My Mother, drunk or sober'. |
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21 Jul 04 - 11:04 PM (#1231081) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Bill D "Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons." ~ Bertrand Russell ...(think very hard about the meaning & implication of that before you pooh-pooh it or dismiss it. It 'might' be a narrow definition, but it might have something in it...) |
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22 Jul 04 - 03:01 AM (#1231162) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Fishpicker "So, do patriots have the right/responsibility to criticize their country/government?" IMO a patriot is a person who is not afraid to speak out when his/her countries government does not have the best interest of the people as its number one agenda, no matter what the consequences may be. Like right now! FP |
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22 Jul 04 - 05:28 AM (#1231216) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Ellenpoly 'The word comes into the English language from the French word "patriote," which came from the Latin word "patriota," which came from the Greek word "patriotes," which meant "a fellow countryman." The Greek "Patriotes" derived from the Greek "patrios" which meant "of one's forefathers." ' Taken off a google website. As I've stated before, and will again. I am NOT a patriot. I believe with all my heart that aligning oneself to only one country is an off-shoot of aligning oneself to one's tribe... which is an off-shoot of one's family. Until we are all ONE FAMILY, the idea of patriotism will essential be a divisive one. ..xx..e |
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22 Jul 04 - 05:34 AM (#1231221) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: el ted I was out downhilling on my Patriot last night. Have a look at - www.Orangebikes.co.uk I can recommend the Patriot 7+, but have the fifth element rear shock fitted in place of the standard Fox Vanilla. |
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22 Jul 04 - 07:21 AM (#1231263) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: jacqui.c I am English and I love the country that I was born and brought up in. I do not believe in 'my country right or wrong' because a lot of the things that my country does stem from the decisions of politicians with whom I might disagree. I also think that the behaviour and actions of a number of my countrymen are a cause of dismay in that they colour the view of other nations to all of us. Having read through the thread I would agree with Ellenpoly that the ideal would be one family. Problem is, even within the nuclear family there can be disagreement, friction and downright hostility so, although it is a lovely ideal, I think that it is one, given the human condition as it stands, that is probably not capable of fulfillment. All we can do, as individuals, is to present the best possible example of our particular nationality, to let others see that, despite geographical differences, human beings are basically the same the world over. That is why I enjoy the Mudcat so much - so many people from different parts of the world and, unless they tell us, we don't really know where they are in that world so are basing our opinions of them on the person, not the nationality. Maybe the word patriot has taken on a bit of a negative connotation these days - in England it has been used too heavily by the very right wing British Nationalist Party. Possibly the word that I would use would be loyalty - to my country, to my family and my friends. |
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22 Jul 04 - 07:32 AM (#1231268) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: kendall So, do patriots have a right/responsibility to criticize their government? Let's ask Theodore Roosevelt: "The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else." "Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star", 149 May 7, 1918 |
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22 Jul 04 - 07:45 AM (#1231274) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: beardedbruce A patriot is one who supports his/her country when it is right, and tries to correct it, using the legal means of citizenship, when it is wrong. The problem, of course, is that many of us disagree about when the country, as represented by the government that we have given power, is right, and when it is wrong. The word is much overused by all parts of the political spectrum. One can oppose the president's actions in Iraq out of patriotism: One might also support them, again out of patriotism. The knee-jerk reaction of both extremes to declare anyone not agreeing with them to be unpatriotic is just one indication of how alike the far right and left have become in thought and action. |
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22 Jul 04 - 08:28 AM (#1231298) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: A Wandering Minstrel What makes someone a patriot? The sudden and unexpected arrival of the thought police! maybe 1984 just came 20 years too early. |
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22 Jul 04 - 08:32 AM (#1231301) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine When I was in high school I was required to study a poem called "The New Patriot". I forget who wrote it, but I seem to recall he had been a soldier in WWI. The poem basically said that the time of national patriots is over and the new patriot would be one who fought for universal humanity. I liked the idea then and I still do. John |
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22 Jul 04 - 08:33 AM (#1231302) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: el ted www.Orangebikes.co.uk |
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22 Jul 04 - 09:34 AM (#1231338) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Greg F. The man who tries to make the flag an object of a single party is a greater traitor to that flag than any man who fires at it. - David Lloyd George ===== i sing of Olaf glad and big whose warmest heart recoiled at war: a conscientious object-or his wellbeloved colonel(trig westpointer most succinctly bred) took erring Olaf soon in hand; but--though an host of overjoyed noncoms(first knocking on the head him)do through icy waters roll that helplessness which others stroke with brushes recently employed anent this muddy toiletbowl, while kindred intellects evoke allegiance per blunt instruments— Olaf(being to all intents a corpse and wanting any rag upon what God unto him gave) responds,without getting annoyed "I will not kiss your fucking flag" straightway the silver bird looked grave (departing hurriedly to shave) but--though all kinds of officers (a yearning nation's blueeyed pride) their passive prey did kick and curse until for wear their clarion voices and boots were much the worse, and egged the firstclassprivates on his rectum wickedly to tease by means of skilfully applied bayonets roasted hot with heat— Olaf(upon what were once knees) does almost ceaselessly repeat "there is some shit I will not eat" our president,being of which assertions duly notified threw the yellowsonofabitch into a dungeon,where he died Christ(of His mercy infinite) i pray to see;and Olaf, too preponderatingly because unless statistics lie he was more brave than me:more blond than you. - e.e.cummings |
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22 Jul 04 - 11:03 AM (#1231385) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Peace Wow! |
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22 Jul 04 - 11:33 AM (#1231418) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: GUEST,Frank Bumpersticker in New Hampshire: "Peace is patriotic". Frank |
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22 Jul 04 - 11:44 AM (#1231427) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Bill D "False are the bickering reigns- Of Honor, of Homeland, of War" -Bob Beers "The Seasons of Peace" |
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23 Jul 04 - 01:14 AM (#1231935) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: GUEST,Art Thieme If hell has a religion, it is patriotism. Art Thieme |
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23 Jul 04 - 02:13 AM (#1231952) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Peace The love of one's country is a terrible thing. from "The Patriot Game" |
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23 Jul 04 - 02:25 AM (#1231956) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Peace Rabbi-Sol, TheBigPinkLad, artbrooks, Bill D, Ebbie, Bert, McG of H, ReelBrew, DougR, michaelr, Amos, El Greko, Joe Offer, Little Brother, mack/misophist, Fishpicker, Ellenpoly, el ted, jacqui.c, kendall, beardedbruce, A Wandering Minstrel, John O'Lennaine, Greg F, Frank and Art Thieme: Thank you all very much for your insights, observations and comments. I truly appreciate it. Bruce Murdoch |
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23 Jul 04 - 07:20 AM (#1232066) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: GUEST,John O'Lenaine I'm not sure if I like that. Have we all been put in a dossier? John |
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23 Jul 04 - 08:06 AM (#1232089) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah I think that nationalism is the nasty thing that often gets confused with patriotism. Nationalism is an aggressive, anxious thing, which depends for its existence on comparisons with other nations - 'my country right or wrong', 'my country is better than yours', etc - yuck. Patriotism I see as not only positive but completely natural, and probably instinctive - love for the people and landscapes of one's country which makes up 'home', that one will fight to protect but not fight to impose on others. As a patriotic Englishman I would say good examples of each are to be found in our history - when we went and took over bits of Africa we showed the worst kind of Nationalism with its attendent racism, and when we defended our country against Napoleon and Hitler we showed superb and completely neccessary patriotism, without which we would probably not exist. I also think that a great way to turn patriotism into aggressive and unpleasant nationalism is to label it wrong and nasty and try to suppress it, as some people on this thread seem to be advocating. It is too powerful and instinctive to be uprooted by well meaning lefties, and needs to be channelled into harmless and creative avenues - excellence in a nation's arts, sports, public and private rectitude and honesty, public service, conservation of a country's beloved natural landscapes and so on. If it is repressed you get football hooligans and similar filth, who think urinating on a Portugese footpath is some kind of victory for England. |
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23 Jul 04 - 08:21 AM (#1232098) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: A Wandering Minstrel John O'Lennaine I wouldn't worry overmuch it is becoming a truism that dossiers only contain things which are "already withdrawn", "Sexed up", "unattributable", later found to be incorrect and ultimately, nobody's responsibility. ;) |
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23 Jul 04 - 07:11 PM (#1232498) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: GUEST,Frank As an afterthought, a conscientious objector is a patriot too. You gotta' have conviction to register as one and keep it going. I think it is one of the finest kinds of patriotism and caring for a country. Not better than anyone else's but beautifully different. Frank |
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23 Jul 04 - 08:54 PM (#1232559) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: GUEST Minstrel - That's what worries me. Already withdrawn? Sexed up? Unattributable? Incorrect? Nobody's responsibility? Me? Maybe in a dossier is where I belong. Perhaps I have degenerated to being an allegory for all the failings of overzealous gung-ho jingoists everywhere. Or am I reading too much into it? Ooh-Aah - Good comment. Good definitions. Now can everybody please move to the banner by which they choose to define themselves? John |
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23 Jul 04 - 09:25 PM (#1232589) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine Sorry. 8.54pm was me. John |
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23 Jul 04 - 11:15 PM (#1232619) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Bobert Well, gol danged!!! This ain't rocker surgery, folks... NASCAR, Country Music and Budweirser!!! Now that's patriotism... If ya wanta key some guys car wid a "Dean" 'er "Create Peace" sticker on the back, then ya' get extra patriot points... Not good 'nuff? Sign up to be one of the 20 Bush folks who taunt peace marchers... Now that is patriotism plus... Not 'nuff fir ya yet? Take two 2 X 4's an bolt 'um to side of yer Chevette and put a couple American flags on 'um to go with the 14 flag deacls you all ready got on the poor ol' Chevette... Now that's patiotism, fir ya... Bobert |
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24 Jul 04 - 02:12 PM (#1232860) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: GUEST Patriotism is the incorrect notion that the accident of the geopolitical location of one's birth has any meaning whatsoever. How about that one? Cheers, Michael |
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24 Jul 04 - 02:26 PM (#1232878) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Lonesome EJ I don't think of a patriot as a person who supports his country whatever it does..."my country right or wrong" is horse droppings. To me a patriot is someone who takes extraordinary risks for a concept in which he believes. George Washington, Patrick Henry, Alexander Hamilton were patriots because they risked their lives and their honor in a cause which they believed was greater than themselves. Flag waving and professing loyalty are the external trappings of patriotism, but when there is no sense of right action, patriotism is absent, and jingoism replaces it. Jingoism enabled the McCarthy witch-hunt, the rise of the Third Reich, the Terror of Revolutionary France, and is fear-based. Patriotism enabled the Declaration of Independence, the Hungarian Revolution, and the Democracy Movement in China. Patriotism is loyalty to principles, not symbols. It is fidelity to a concept, not a country. |
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24 Jul 04 - 02:55 PM (#1232904) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Amos LEJ SWINGS, HE CONNECTS AND IT'S...GOING....GOING....OVER THE FENCE LADIES AND GENTS. Another homer for the Old-Timey Lurkers!! How about that gennulman LEJ??? (Crowd goes wild) A |
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24 Jul 04 - 04:24 PM (#1232966) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: CarolC Once again, I find myslef agreeing with artbrooks, this time, his 21 Jul 04 - 05:39 PM post: To "support and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic" My sentiments exactly. |
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24 Jul 04 - 04:57 PM (#1232994) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Peace LEJ, There aren't too many people who even know about the events of 1956. Good one. Bruce M |
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24 Jul 04 - 05:20 PM (#1233017) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Greg F. HUAC & the Dies committee atrocities preceeded McCarthy by quite a while. Tailgunner Joe just starred in the last act of the whole sordid mess- until the recent revival per Ashcroft & the BuShites.. |
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24 Jul 04 - 06:47 PM (#1233059) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Joe_F mack/misophist: That was G. K. Chesterton, not W. C. Fields. George Orwell wrote ("Notes on Nationalism", 1945): Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism..., since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other people. Patriotism is by its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, _not_ for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his individuality. |
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24 Jul 04 - 08:25 PM (#1233117) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Metchosin another view of partriotism: TO THE CANADIAN PATRIOT by William Wilfred Campbell This is the land of the rugged north; these wide Life-yielding fields, these inland oceans; these Vast rivers moving seaward their wide floods, Majestic music; these sky-bound plains And heaven-topping mountains; these iron shores, Facing toward either ocean; fit home alone For the indomitable and nobly strong. In that dread hour of evil, when thy land Is rent with strifes and ground with bigotry, And all looks dark for honour, and poor Truth Walks cloaked in shadow, alien from her marts; Go forth alone and view the earth and sky, And those eternal waters, moving, vast, In endless duty, ever rendering pure These mild or angry airs; the gladdening sun Reviving, changing, weaving life from death, These elemental uses Nature puts Her patient hours to; and then thou shalt know A larger vista, glean a greater truth Than man has put into his partial creeds Of blinded feud and custom; thou shalt know That Nature's laws are greater and more sure, More calm, more patient, wise and tolerant, Than these poor, futile efforts of our dream; That human life is stronger in its yearning Than those blind walls our impotence builds between And underneath this calloused rind we see— As the obedient tides the swaying moon— A mightier law the whole wide world obeys; And far behind these mists of human vision God's great horizon stands out fixed and sure. |
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24 Jul 04 - 10:07 PM (#1233158) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: izzy My favourite quote on patriotism: "Patriotism is a lively sense of collective responsibility. Nationalism is a cock crowing on its own dunghill." --Richard Aldington, poet and veteran of WWI. |
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24 Jul 04 - 11:18 PM (#1233185) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Thomas the Rhymer Patriot-- n. A person who loves, supports, and defends his country. No mention is made of Government. Is a mercenary a patriot? Well, I'd have to answer that Government agents are not necessarily patriotic... they are duty bound to policy, rather than patriotic principle... ttr |
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24 Jul 04 - 11:20 PM (#1233189) Subject: RE: BS: What makes someone a patriot? From: Bobert Big ol' No. #3 bumper sticker and half a dozen flag decals works jus' fine fir me... Bobert |