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11 Aug 04 - 06:33 PM (#1245247) Subject: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST,Ron Who Knew Kerry is NOT an Irish catholic His grandparents were jewish Is he trying to hide that Do we care |
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11 Aug 04 - 06:36 PM (#1245253) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST,heric In our family, there was no clear line between religion and fly fishing. We lived at the junction of great trout rivers in western Montana, and our father was a Presbyterian minister and a fly fisherman who tied his own flies and taught others. He told us about Christ's disciples being fishermen, and we were left to assume, as my brother and I did, that all first-class fishermen on the Sea of Galilee were fly fishermen and that John, the favorite, was a dry-fly fisherman. |
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11 Aug 04 - 06:43 PM (#1245261) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: artbrooks Hardly new information, but since they are his paternal grandparents, he cannot be 'officially" Jewish. On the other hand, he would probably have been Jewish enough for Hitler. |
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11 Aug 04 - 06:46 PM (#1245266) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST I thought he was an Irish Catholic Jew? I know that blows the minds of most Protestants, but hey...the rest of us Americans have been cross-breeding for centuries rather than just fucking our cousins and uncles. |
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11 Aug 04 - 06:54 PM (#1245273) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Deckman I know, from first hand information, that his home decorations are "Chinese, Jewish, Modern." If you believe that, I've got a great bridge I'd like to speak to you about! Bob |
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11 Aug 04 - 07:04 PM (#1245284) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Little Hawk LOL! Well, I certainly don't care. He could be a Croatian-Italian-Samoan Gypsy for all I care. What difference does it make? |
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11 Aug 04 - 07:14 PM (#1245293) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: PoppaGator I read that his paternal grandfather -- ethnically Jewish but not a practicing religious Jew -- came to America (Boston?) and at that time changed his name from a difficult-to-pronounce Eastern Europan name to the ostensibly Irish "Kerry," and at the same time became a Catholic. I presume he became part of the Irish Catholic community, probably marrying into it. Kerry may well have known about this, but (according to a news item several months ago) did NOT know until recently that he had relatives who died in the Holocaust. Artbrooks is right -- having Jewish forbearers on the paternal side does *not* make a person Jewish according to Jewish laws and traditions; only the mother can pass along "Jewishness." The Nazis, on the other hand, would exterminate anyone with Jewish blood on either side of the family tree. |
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11 Aug 04 - 07:57 PM (#1245311) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine Trivial distinctions of ancestry are just that. They have no bearing on what or who the individual is, or his capacity to be president or a motor mechanic or any thing else. I'm surprised it's even a topic of conversation. John |
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11 Aug 04 - 08:11 PM (#1245319) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Bill D I didn't know religious preferences were encoded in DNA....Kerry can be anything he wants |
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11 Aug 04 - 08:44 PM (#1245345) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST It's getting as hot as an oven in here. |
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11 Aug 04 - 08:58 PM (#1245358) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Little Hawk Well, open the window then. |
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11 Aug 04 - 09:15 PM (#1245373) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine And what's with the Jewish thing anyway? Would it have been noteworthy if his great granddad had been Argentinian? Or French? Or Mongolian? Or syphilitic? Why kick the Jew-boy can? John |
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11 Aug 04 - 09:19 PM (#1245377) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST,Ron the difficult name that his Grand parents had was KROHN Not being Irish does not Matter to you Mr O lennenine? sorry for the spelling It matters to me |
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11 Aug 04 - 09:20 PM (#1245379) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST Mr O'Lenniane it sounds like you are playing the ORANGE card |
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11 Aug 04 - 09:27 PM (#1245387) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine I'm not quite sure what you're trying to insinuate, either of you, but I think a strong association with the Church of Rome is far more dangerous to human health & prosperity than a vague link with Judaism. Also, if it matters (and I think we have hereby come full circle) I am 5th generation Australian and not Catholic. John |
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11 Aug 04 - 09:30 PM (#1245392) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Peace Hello, mate! |
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11 Aug 04 - 10:24 PM (#1245420) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST,ron So I was right you are an ORANGIE a fifth generation one Tiocfai ar Law |
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11 Aug 04 - 10:40 PM (#1245430) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine ron - You've got me stuffed. I don't know how to respond, I don't even know whast you're saying. The questions you haven't yet addressed are these: "And what's with the Jewish thing anyway?", and "Why kick the Jew-boy can?" John |
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11 Aug 04 - 10:52 PM (#1245437) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST,Clint Keller Some of my relatives assume "Keller" is German; some say it's Irish, cut down from "Kelleher." I'd like to know because I'm curious, but I won't be a different person when I find out. Will I? clint |
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11 Aug 04 - 10:53 PM (#1245441) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Little Hawk Not unless you think you are. As a man thinks, so he is. |
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12 Aug 04 - 12:35 AM (#1245498) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Once Famous Kerry is about as Jewish as the Pope And his wife is almost the ultimate shiksa. |
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12 Aug 04 - 12:58 AM (#1245511) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Jeremiah McCaw ". . . I didn't know religious preferences were encoded in DNA....Kerry can be anything he wants . . ." I think the source was David Ben-Gurian; "A Jew is anyone who says he is." Amen! |
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12 Aug 04 - 02:11 AM (#1245527) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: jacqui.c It's a poliical election - from what I've seen of most political parties there is a tendency to plumb whatever depths they can to make capital. Since when did any of them stop at bringing in personal stuff? Catholic or Jewish - does it really matter? What matters is would he be good for the country and for the rst of the world and can he be any worse than what's there now? |
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12 Aug 04 - 02:17 AM (#1245529) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Nerd No, Martin. Bush's wife is the Ultimate shiksa. Theresa is much more like a Jewish woman, in my opinion. To wit: she's short, dark, a bit overbearing, speaks her mind, is vastly educated, speaks a million languages, etc., etc. With that accent, she'd have to be Sephardic, though. (Not really--I know a Chilean Jew who speaks like her; Spanish is his first language, and his name is Rosovsky!) Krohn, by the way, isn't even a particularly Jewish name--there are many Germans and Finns with this name--so neither changing the name then nor concealing it now would help to conceal Jewishness per se. Kerry apparently years ago made some reference to Irish ancestors, but has not done so in a long time, since he learned of his family history. Anyone who thought he was Irish was simply making ignorant assumptions based on his name. To then blame HIM for misleading you when it was YOUR silly assumption that he was irish is foolish. By the way, I know a guy whose last name is "Kennedy." He's 100% Hungarian. The Hungarians have a name that sounds just the same. Funny old world! |
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12 Aug 04 - 02:30 AM (#1245535) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Peace If a shiksa was good enough for Moses, a shiksa is good enough for Kerry. |
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12 Aug 04 - 04:15 AM (#1245575) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: John MacKenzie As a resident of the UK I hate to intrude on private grief, but I will say this. What the FUCK does a man's religion, have to do with his ability to do a job? Giok |
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12 Aug 04 - 04:27 AM (#1245584) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: DMcG I think, Giok, you mean: what does his GRANDPARENT's religion have to do with his ability to do a job? |
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12 Aug 04 - 08:31 AM (#1245685) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Ellenpoly I've got it on good authority that there is some weasel blood in the Bush Family Tree. SHOULDA known! ..xx..e |
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12 Aug 04 - 09:46 AM (#1245743) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST Oh come on people. Protestant WASP types who are into the politics of divide and conquer will use anything to do so, but they know bloody well nothing works better than religion, race, and ethicity. And their preferred targets are still Catholics, Jews, and African Americans. Hence this stupid thread, which accuses Kerry of being both Catholic and Jewish, and lying about his ancestry. That said, I'm still a little suspicious of Americans who refuse to talk about their background. We are a nation of immigrants, so I always feel someone is hiding something from me when they don't reveal their background. But I'm interested in peoples' backgrounds because I love being around people who are from cultures different from my own, who are multilingual, or who have immigration stories to tell. Politicians often use race, religion (or lack of one, especially secularity), and ethnicity to divide and conquer, but then only identify themselves as "Americans" which I find to be incredibly phony. Kerry makes no mention of his family background on his website bio. Haven't bothered to check Bush's website. |
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12 Aug 04 - 09:56 AM (#1245749) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Bobert Well danged. That does it fir me! Sho nuff... Now Nadar really has my vote... Awww, jus funnin'. I ain't leanin' toward Nadar 'cause of no religous thing, but issues.. Bobert |
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12 Aug 04 - 10:27 AM (#1245784) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST And at least Nader is up front about his background, and doesn't hid it under a bushel basket like Kerry does. And I'm with ya Bobert, I too decide based on a candidate's position on the issues, not race, religion, or ethnicity. But the reality is, there are plenty of people who vote according to one of those three, especially when their candidate is the same as they are racially, religiously, or ethnically. |
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12 Aug 04 - 10:35 AM (#1245794) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST I should also note that fewer and fewer Americans of European descent know their ethnic background, just as so many Protestant oriented religious believers can't figure out which denomination they most closely identify with, and claim to be generic Christians of some sort instead. No wonder WASPs are so fucked up! |
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12 Aug 04 - 12:56 PM (#1245959) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Peace "As a resident of the UK I hate to intrude on private grief, but I will say this. What the FUCK does a man's religion, have to do with his ability to do a job?" John, Maybe a great deal. Imagine a Jewish pope or a Muslim rabbi. |
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12 Aug 04 - 12:57 PM (#1245962) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST,Cookieless Nerd It's always dangerous to assume that someone is "holding something back," or to speculate on the reasons for it. I am reminded of my Jewish parents' reaction to hearing the name of Irish composer Sean O Riada: "you know (ha ha), his REAL name must have been John Reid." I explained that in fact he was Christened John Reidy, but wasn't sure why they found it so funny. Then I realized: In the Jewish community, to change your name is considered a way of HIDING your true name, and thus of hiding your ethnicity. My parents consider it, if not contemptible, at least distasteful and a bit pitiful. In the Irish community in O Riada's era, of course, changing your name was considered a way of RECLAIMING your true name, and thus of reclaiming your ethnicity. My parents were looking at O Riada's actions with Jewish eyes, assuming that he was "hiding something" about himself, trying to be more trendy or socially acceptable. O Riada saw it as the opposite process, reaffirming something about himself that had previously been hidden, and doing so even though it was not at all de rigeur in the court of Dublin high culture. So why did Kerry's grandfather change his name? I don't know and neither do you. Does it reflect at all on Kerry himself? Of course not. |
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12 Aug 04 - 01:41 PM (#1246006) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST Excellent example Nerd, of why it is usually best to be transparent about such matters. Not to be unduly critical of your parents and the many other immigrants who have changed their names in order to better assimilate with the dominant Anglo culture in the US. But I would disagree that all Jews changed their names exclusively for the reasons your parents perceived they were changing their names. I think many Jews changed their names to assimilate, just the the Irish and Poles and the Italians did. It was out of economic necessity. I don't attach any negativity to them doing it, nor am I judgmental about. Nor do I think the changing of the spelling of one's name back to one's ancesral linguistic spelling of it as a means of reclaiming one's cultural identity after being raised as an assimilated WASP, is negative or cause for judgment. Many assimilated WASP sorts of people consider it to be a bit too precious, especially when they see people of Irish or Scots Gaelic identity do it, be it in Ireland, Britain, or the US. Though on the other hand, those same people don't seem to consider it too precious when Native Americans do it. I do take your point, but I don't think there is anything to be gained by politicians not being transparent about their religious and ethnic background. And I think this perverse interest in Kerry's background is proof of that. He'd be much better off just getting his ancestral background out there, period, and be done with it. He hedges much too much on the religion and ethnicity issues, possibly because of his obvious associations as a Catholic with the Boston Brahmins who are WASPs. I dunno why he is does it, but I think it's a political mistake for him, because it is one more stupid thing that people see in him that make them distrustful of him. If you are going to campaign on honesty and integrity, and insist that peoples' religion doesn't matter in America because we are a democracy that tolerates all religions and none, why not just tell people what your ethnic background and religion are? |
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12 Aug 04 - 01:42 PM (#1246007) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Ellenpoly And I also have it on good authority that John Kerry is indeed trying to hide the fact he has some Jewish ancestry. He's afraid someone will offer him kishke and he'll have to eat it. ;-D (PS-Just kidding, kishkes are delicious. As long as they're not one's own.) ..xx..e |
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12 Aug 04 - 02:04 PM (#1246020) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: John MacKenzie brucie, I think a jewish Pope might work, think of all the babies that wouldn't be born. Might slow down the world's population growth. It certainly needs something. Giok |
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12 Aug 04 - 02:20 PM (#1246030) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Nerd GUEST, pay attention. My parents did NOT change their names. And what do you mean by "transparent?" Do candidates have to make a public declaration? How many generations back does it have to go? |
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12 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM (#1246221) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: GUEST I didn't say your parents changed their names, Nerd. I said I understood their feelings about people who did. By transparent, I mean that it not be hidden from view. A public declaration would be silly, but to include it in their biographies would be eminently reasonable. There are no rules about this Nerd, and I think you are getting carried away, although I'm not sure why. Perhaps you are reacting to the fact that it is me posting, rather than what I'm actually trying to say? |
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12 Aug 04 - 06:10 PM (#1246233) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Little Hawk Ah! Now that is something that happens all too often on this forum...and off it too, come to think of it. |
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12 Aug 04 - 08:26 PM (#1246329) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Peace Giok: Good answer, I was wondering how you'd handle that. Excellently as always. |
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13 Aug 04 - 03:12 AM (#1246539) Subject: RE: BS: Who KNew ? From: Nerd Nothing personal, GUEST. I just think you're unreasonably blaming Kerry for something other people are saying. You said that he was hiding his background under a bushel, for example. But I've seen no evidence that Kerry is hiding anything, and you didn't provide any. Fact is, some candidates (like Clinton) talk a lot about their background, others (including Bush AND Kerry) don't. Dukakis did, Bush the first did not. I STILL don't know if Pappy Bush is from Maine or Texas! But Bush still won. Remember, Kerry's been a public figure since 1971, and the first President to hire a professional investigator/smear artist against him was Nixon. He figures everything about his background that HE knows is in the public record already, so why belabor it. By the way, it doesn't always work to be open about your background. Growing up, Al Gore spent his summers on a farm in Tennessee, where his father made him work from dawn to dark doing backbreaking chores. Neighbors and friends vividly remember how mercilessly he was worked by a father who didn't want him to get soft and lazy. When he tried to talk about working on the farm, Bush's spin doctors attacked him, saying he was the son of a Senator and never did a day's work in his life. The media reported what Bush's people SAID, rather than what was true, and Gore's true statement became another part of the "exaggerations and lies" that the Republicans charged him with. Every one of those "exaggerations and lies," by the way, was true, from Gore "Taking the Initiative in Creating the Internet" as a Senator, to Gore reading in the paper that he and Tipper were the models for Love Story. Everything he said about his background was true. He was fully transparent. And it helped him not one bit. So my point is just this: I don't see any evidence that (1) Kerry is hiding anything (2) It's better to be transparent |