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Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee

10 Sep 04 - 01:40 AM (#1268275)
Subject: Info on: Road and miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,Geo

What are the origins to Road and Miles To Dundee? How old, the tune, etc. Why was she out on the moor at daybreak? Why wouldn't he tell her? Hope I don't get lost in Scotland.

10 Sep 04 - 02:49 AM (#1268302)
Subject: RE: Info on: Road and miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,Boab

Don't know the truth of it, but I [ in roguish mood...] sometimes introduce the song as the tall story given to a Dundee "polis" by a suspicious character who was found in possession of a lady's purse and jewelry!

10 Sep 04 - 06:41 AM (#1268432)
Subject: RE: Info on: Road and miles to Dundee
From: Wolfgang

Some information here

Wolfgang

01 Jun 11 - 01:06 PM (#3163791)
Subject: RE: Info on: Road and miles to Dundee
From: GUEST

This song is the same tune as the 'Road to Dundee' and I never knew that this song exists but what I would like to know is who wrote that song of Carnlough Bay. I have heard the road to dundee and played it so many times for my gigs when we were called Braveheart with my friend Martin and I also remember another song to that same tune called 'Princey and Gene' sung by Charley Allen but i do not know who wrote that.

10 Jul 15 - 12:00 AM (#3722466)
Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: THE ROAD TO DUNDEE
From: Joe Offer

Looks like we could stand to do some more research on this. Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on the song:

    Road to Dundee, The

    DESCRIPTION: "Cauld wind was howling o'er moor and o'er mountain" when the singer meets a girl asking her way to Dundee. He says he can't easily tell her, but will show her the way. As they approach the town, they exchange tokens and part. And no, they *don't* marry
    AUTHOR: see NOTES
    EARLIEST DATE: 1906 (Greig/Duncan5)
    KEYWORDS: travel courting
    FOUND IN: Britain(Scotland(Aber)) Ireland Canada(Newf,Ont)
    REFERENCES (9 citations):
    Greig-FolkSongInBuchan-FolkSongOfTheNorthEast #51, p. 2, "The Road to Dundee" (1 text)
    Greig/Duncan5 971, "The Road to Dundee" (7 texts plus a fragmentary text from Greig on p. 600, 4 tunes)
    Ord-BothySongsAndBallads, pp. 152-153, "The Road to Dundee" (1 text, 1 tune)
    Gatherer-SongsAndBalladsOfDundee 63, "The Road tae Dundee" (1 text, 2 tunes)
    OLochlainn-IrishStreetBallads 95, "Sweet Carnloch Bay" (1 text, 1 tune)
    Bennett/Downey-JeromeJustOneMoreSong 7, pp. 83-85, "The Road to Dundee" (1 text)
    Fowke-TraditionalSingersAndSongsFromOntario 52, "The Road to Dundee" (1 text, 1 tune)
    DT, ROADDUND* RDUND2
    ADDITIONAL: Chris Wright, "'Forgotten Broadsides and the Song Tradition of the Scots Travellers" -- essay found in David Atkinson and Steve Roud, Editors, _Street Ballads in Nineteenth-Century Britain, Ireland, and North America: The Interface between Print and Oral Tradition_, Ashgate, 2014, pp. 93-98, "The Road and the Miles to Dundee" (copy of a broadside print); "Road to Dundee" (copy of a broadside print); "(The Road to Dundee)"; "Grim WInter (1811)"; "Grim Winter (1841)" (3 texts plus the broadside prints)
    Roud #2300
    RECORDINGS:
    Jerome Downey, "The Road to Dundee" (on NFJDowney01)
    CROSS-REFERENCES:
    cf. "The Lass o' Glenshee" (tune, per Greig)
    NOTES [58 words]: OLochlainn-IrishStreetBallads lists the author of this as "Mackay," but Chris Wright says that Charles Gray of Anstruther published his earliest text of "Grim Winter" in 1811. Wright observes that Gray's song -- clearly an art song -- was very flowery, so someone (maybe even someone named Mackay) might have pruned the shrubbery along the way. - RBW
    Last updated in version 4.5
    File: Ord152

    Go to the Ballad Search form
    Go to the Ballad Index Song List

    Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
    Go to the Ballad Index Bibliography or Discography

    The Ballad Index Copyright 2024 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

DT Version:
ROAD TAE DUNDEE

D G D
Cold winter was turnin' o'er moor and o'er mountain
G D E7 A7
And wild was the surge on the dark rollin' sea
D G D
When I met aboot daybreak a bonnie young lassie
G D A7 D
That asked me the road and the miles tae Dundee

I said, "My young lassie, I canna weel tell ye
The road and the distance I ne'er can weel gauge
But if ye'll permit me tae gang a wee bittie
I'll show ye the road and the miles tae Dundee

At once she consented and gave me her air-m [arm
Nae a word did I speir wham that lassie might be [spare whom
She appeared like an angel in feature and for-m
As she walked by my side on the road tae Dundee

At length with the howe of Strathmartine behind us
[hollow of the Martin River valley]
The spires o' the toon in full full view we could see
She said, "Gentle sir, I can never forget ye
For showin' me so far on the road tae Dundee.

This ring and this purse please accept as a token
And surely there's somethin' that ye can gi'e me,
That in years to come I'll the laddie remember
Who showed me the road and the miles to Dundee?"

I took the gold pin frae the scarf on my bosom,
And said, "Tak' ye this, in remembrance o' me",
And bravely I kissed the sweet lips o' the lassie
Ere I pairted wi' her on the road tae Dundee

or:
(So I took the gowd pin frae the scarf on my bosom
And said "Keep ye this in remembrance o' me
So in times to come ye'll the laddie remember
That walked by your side on the road tae Dundee)

So here's tae the lassie, I ne'er will forget her
Tae ilk a young laddie that's list'nin' tae me
Never be sweir to convoy a young lassie
Though it's only to show her the road tae Dundee

@Scottish @love
From Gavin Anderson
filename[ ROADDUND
TUNE FILE: ROADDUND
CLICK TO PLAY
RPf, JB



ROAD TO DUNDEE

1. Cold winter was howlin' o'er moorland and mountain
And wild was the surge of the dark rolling sea
When I met about daybreak a bonnie young lassie
Who asked me the road and the miles to Dundee.

2. Says I, "My young lassie, I canna weel tell ye,
The road and the distance I canna weel gie,
But if you'll permit me to gang a wee bittie,
I'll show you the road and the miles to Dundee."

3. The lassie consented and gie me her airm
Not a word did I speir wha the lassie micht be
She appeared like an angel in feature and form
As she walked by my side on the road to Dundee.

4. At length wi' the howe o' Strathmartine behind us
The spires o' the toon in full view we could see,
She said, "Gentle sir, I can never forget ye
For showin' me so far on the road to Dundee.

5. This ring and this purse please accept as a token
And surely there's somethin' that ye can gi'e me,
That in years to come I'll the laddie remember
Who showed me the road and the miles to Dundee?"

6. I took the gold pin frae the scarf on my bosom,
And said, "Tak' ye this, in remembrance o' me",
And bravely I kissed the sweet lips o' the lassie
And I pairted frae her on the road to Dundee.

7. So here's tae the lassie; I canna forget her,
And ilka young laddie wha's listenin' to me,
O never be sweir to convey a young lassie,
Though it's only to show her the road to Dundee.

from the singing of Murray Shoolbraid.
@Scottish @love
filename[ RDDUND2
TUNE FILE: RDDUND2
CLICK TO PLAY
JB



10 Jul 15 - 12:06 AM (#3722467)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: Joe Offer

Here's the Corries recording:

10 Jul 15 - 03:29 PM (#3722697)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: Vic Smith

I learned this song at Hermitage Park School in Edinburgh - it must have been in 1951 or 1952 from my teacher, a Miss Smith. She taught us a lot of fine traditional Scots songs, many of which I am sure were not widely available in print or recording at the time. I think that she could have been involved in some of the first manifestations of the folk revival. The People's Ceilidh 1951 in Edinburgh is widely quoted as being one of the sparks that lit the folk revival.

10 Jul 15 - 04:54 PM (#3722722)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: Gallus Moll

Princie and Jean is a song about two Clydesdale horses that worked on a farm- -- think Archie Fisher sings / has recorded it?
(guest 1st June 2011)

11 Jul 15 - 12:18 PM (#3722895)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: JeffB

This was discussed a few years ago, but don't know the thread title. However, I have a habit of making notes about songs I like, and this is what I put together from the contributions made at the time :-

Sweet Carnloch (or Carnlough) Bay is an Irish version, and there are several others, including one found in Canada. The Irish version was publicised by Colm O'Lochlainn in his Irish street ballads (1939), O'Lochlainn having had it from Cathal O'Byrne in 1913. Authorship has been attributed to Richard "The Poet" Mckay (pronounced McKee), who was born in Armagh in 1800 and died in Blairgowrie in 1897. There is an alternative attribution to a D. Young of Dysart in Fife, who is said to have composed the song in 1825 for David "Flutorum" Hatton, an eccentric innkeeper. The tune is Bonnie (or Adieu ) Dundee.

11 Jul 15 - 12:46 PM (#3722905)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson

My early memory of this song was a performance in a variety show at the Pavilion Theatre -- or possibly the King's Theatre -- in Glasgow, in the late 1960's.

The headline act was Lonnie Donegan, the King of Skiffle, who was superb: full of energy and absolutely on top of any hecklers from the audience. There was also Denny Willis, a very physical comedian and the son of the inimitable pantomime star Dave Willis; and another comedy act -- probably Irish, as I have a memory of a saffron kilt.

But The Road and the Miles to Dundee was delivered by the Scottish musical act of (George) Cormack and (Irene) Sharp. He was dressed in a velvet double-breasted jacket and a somewhat lurid kilt -- but she had a tight, floor-length, spangly dress which seemed quite at odds with his outfit. The delivery was saccharine-sweet, cloying and a total turn-off to our group which had been exposed to the rather more authentic approach of singers such as Jimmy MacBeath….

It was only many years later that I could listen to the song in the performance of singers from the Folk Revival and enjoy it for its lack of pretensions!

12 Jul 15 - 03:20 AM (#3722975)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: Gutcher

Speaking to one of the travelling Robertsons a wheen years back in Kirriemuir he claimed this one for an ancestor from Ulster.

12 Jul 15 - 11:46 PM (#3723177)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,Chris Wright

I have an essay in the recent book 'Street Ballads in Nineteenth-Century Britain, Ireland and North America' which includes a discussion on the origin of this song. The earliest version on 'The Road and the Miles' that I know of appears in broadside ballads from the Poets' Box in Dundee. There are three distinct publications, probably produced over a 20-30 year period at the start of the 20th century. But the song has an earlier origin as an art-poem called 'Grim Winter was Howlin', composed by Fife man Charles Gray (1782-1851). The poem was evidently subject a very common process by the Poets' Box and other broadside printers, whereby the flowery language of art-poetry was recast into the broadside idiom for broader appeal.

See: http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_winter.htm

13 Jul 15 - 05:44 AM (#3723247)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: JeffB

Chris, thanks very much for that very useful info. Are the broadsides much the same as each other or the modern song, or are there any significant differences?

13 Jul 15 - 02:05 PM (#3723380)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST

17 May 24 - 03:25 AM (#4202588)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST

i watched a show cauled the people's ceildh it was a document of a show made in 1951. this was the start of the folk revival. the singers were john straken and jimmy mcbeath and others. alan lomax was scheduled to take them to the usa. not all of them went. the songs they sung on that night out were written by scots writers from the 19th century that were set to tunes from other parts of the world richard mackay is a great format on writing new words to tunes from other countries and taking them to scotland. in 1862 he wrote his best non songs the road and the miles to dundee and tramps and hawkers. watching the alan lomax podcast are very good to watch cos it talks about the usa folk scene when scotland got in to folk seen alan lomax travelled to england and ireland and that was the start of folk music. the road to dundee is very close to the unfortunate rake. in 1963 bob dylan wrote a song cauled redwing gold. when he wrote this he said he liked the tune of streets of laredp but wanted to do notes up to a new song and it was not easy for him to do. i sung the song redwing gold at the captains bar as pete seeger's where have all the flours gone. thank you from joe.

17 May 24 - 04:54 AM (#4202593)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge

regarding the first line of this song....

'Cauld winter was howling o'er moor and o'er mountain'

as soon as he registered the identity of the song, I well recall the late John Watt, when in the right company, emitting a loud howling noise similar to a screaming gale from the Sidlaw Hills- to provide a bit of atmosphere for the performer.

17 May 24 - 01:41 PM (#4202611)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,Rossey

As stated earlier by Chris Wright in 2015, Charles Gray `1782-1851, wrote an antecedent.   This appeared in an Edinburgh published book 'Lays and Lyrics' by Charles Gray 1841. This book can be found on the Internet Archive. Whether he published it any earlier, or in another form, I don't know.

Grim Winter Was Howlin'

Grim winter was howlin' owre muir and owre mountain,
   And bleak blew the wind on the wild stormy sea;
The cauld frost had lock'd up each riv'let and fountain,
   As I took the dreich road that leads north to Dundee.
Though a' round was dreary, my heart was fu' cheerie,
   And cantie I sung as the bird on the tree;
For when the heart's light, the feet winna soon weary,
   Though ane should gang further than bonnie Dundee!

Arrived at the banks o' sweet Tay's flowin' river,
   I look'd, as it rapidly row'd to the sea;
And fancy, whose fond dream still pleases me ever,
   Beguiled the lone passage to bonnie Dundee.

There, glowrin' about, I saw in his station
   Ilk bodie as eydent as midsummer bee;
When fair stood a mark, on the face o' creation,
   The lovely young Peggy, the pride o' Dundee!

O! aye since the time I first saw this sweet lassie,
   I'm listless, I'm restless, wherever I be;
I'm dowie, and donnart, and aften ca'd saucy;
   They kenna its a' for the lass o' Dundee!

O! lang may her guardians be virtue and honour;
   Though anither may wed her, yet well may she be;
And blessin's in plenty be shower'd down upon her -
   The lovely young Peggie, the pride o' Dundee!

18 May 24 - 04:44 AM (#4202636)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST

NORTH?? tae Dundee?- there was no Tay Bridge then....

18 May 24 - 11:23 AM (#4202650)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,The Baker is dead

On the last Sabbath day of 1879, The Tay Bridge Disaster occurred, so it must be more recent.

18 May 24 - 11:29 AM (#4202651)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: Manitas_at_home

There are other bridges and ferries.

18 May 24 - 11:53 AM (#4202654)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: GUEST,Rossey

The Grim Winter Was Howlin' antecedent version, by Charles Gray, I can now say was published in an 1811 volume of his poetry, but put out in this books as a song set to a tune called 'Bonnie Dundee'. It was also included in mid 19th century Scottish song books.

18 May 24 - 06:57 PM (#4202666)
Subject: RE: Info on: The Road and the Miles to Dundee
From: Jack Campin

"Bonnie Dundee" (the original one as in the Skene MS of 1625) would certainly work, but "The Road and the Miles" is sung to a variant of "The Banks of the Devon", popularized by Burns and adopted for a zillion different songs from about 1810 onwards. Burns sold well in Ireland so if an Irish song later turned out to use the same tune, you know where the songwriter got it from.