Hooray: it's gassing and shooting

15 Sep 04 - 02:08 PM (#1272657)
Subject: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: greg stephens

In an unprecedented display of compassion and principle, the British parliament has voted by a majority of 190 in favour of gassing and shooting foxes. Shooting is of course surprisngly effective: indeed in the last two months one boy has been shot dead, and one man seriously injured, by people attempting too shoot foxes in the dark. This, or cyanide, is the new preferred method. Out go outmoded dogs, in come newly relevant methods. The old songs are also to be banned, replaced by modern classics like "D'ye ken John Eichmann", "Joe Gunman", " There was Cyanide, Strychnine, Warfarin was there-O" and "it's a Fine Lamping Night".
   Thank God for progress.

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15 Sep 04 - 02:10 PM (#1272660)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Clinton Hammond

BS section please

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15 Sep 04 - 02:13 PM (#1272664)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: greg stephens

Hunting songs, very reasonable topic, don't you think?

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15 Sep 04 - 03:09 PM (#1272717)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow

Songs about cock-fighting and bare-knuckle fighting never stopped being sung just because these activities got banned back in the nineteenth century.

Our urban foxes here seem to manage to rub along with the rest of the community without shooting, gassing, or hunting. Most of the time they even seem to manage to avoid being run over in the town.

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15 Sep 04 - 03:10 PM (#1272719)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Jeri

Well, THIS is a song! (More like bits of one)

1. As I was a walking one morning last autumn
I approached some hunters, and I asked them
"You can't shoot a fox today, so to kill them, what's your way?"
And they replied so gaily "Oh, we gas them!"

There was Dido, Bendigo, Gentry he was there-o
Traveler he never looked behind him.
There was Countess, Rover, Bonnie Lass and Jover
These were the hounds that could find him.

3. Well the next fox being old,
And his trials fast advancing
He was confused, and stumbled into Rover
But the hounds all wore a mask
And a poisonous little flask
And Reynard inhaled once and then fell over

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15 Sep 04 - 03:20 PM (#1272729)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Once Famous

The fox went out on a chilly night
prayed for the moon to give him light
He had many a mile to go that night

BEFORE HE WAS EITHER SHOT OR GASSED

town-o, town-o.................

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15 Sep 04 - 04:11 PM (#1272778)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Paul Mitchell

Fox hunting is considered by many to be a means of controlling the number of foxes.

More foxes are killed on the roads than by fox hunting.

It is, therefore, logical that in order to more effectively control foxes we should build roads through the rural areas.

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15 Sep 04 - 08:54 PM (#1272949)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: ThreeSheds

There was an interesting comment read out on the bbc news about the pro hunting protesters in parliament today to the effect that the dogs should have been set on them. As for the polices reported heavy handed action I thought they were simply carrying out actions to improve the breed through the thrill of the chase. But what really pisses me off is the number of people who think this is the prime issue of the moment. As far as I'm concerned hunting is like porn on the internet I know its there its claimed to fulfil a need but I dont want to take part

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16 Sep 04 - 03:12 AM (#1273145)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Paco Rabanne

What will this Nanny state ban next? Shooting? Fishing? Titter ye not, if this bunch stay in power much longer they will have us all wearing mittens.
               El ted, pro hunting.

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16 Sep 04 - 11:40 AM (#1273240)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: John MacKenzie

I do hope they don't gas any badgers by mistake!!
Giok

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17 Sep 04 - 12:57 AM (#1273742)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: sledge

I fail to see why shooting on a selective basis by trained gamekeepers can be less efficient than a bunch of bloodthirsty twats on horses chasing a terrified animal for an hour or so and then having it torn apart by dogs.

When many of these hunters are interviewed they often state that they get a great deal of enjoyment from just being able to ride out, so what, does getting on a horse mean you can't get off until you've killed or tried to kill something.

As for being animal lovers, according to the RSPCA, hunts destroy around 3000 healthy dogs a year, I'd hate to see how they behaved if they hated animals.

Sledge

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17 Sep 04 - 05:02 AM (#1273847)
Subject: Lyr Add - The Town Fox
From: McGrath of Harlow

Here's that Town Fox song again, settled in a bit more with a few different lines:

Old Daddy Fox went out one night,
Over the road to a town so bright,
He spied a bin and he laughed with delight,
"I'm glad that I came to this town oh, town oh,
He spied a bin and he laughed with delight,
"I'm glad that I came to this town oh.

He opened the bin and he searched around,
And a tasty curry he quickly found,
And a half-of a chicken weighed a couple of pounds,
"Oh this is a mighty fine town oh..."

Old Mother Flipper Flopper climbed out of bed,
And out of the window she stuck her head,
Crying "John, John, there's a fox to be fed,
The fox who's come to the town oh."

So John came down and he opened up a tin,
And he gave him the meat that was within,
Saying "We can't have our Foxie a-getting too thin -
He's the best fox in this town oh."

Daddy fox went home with a bag full of grub,
"Therell be some for the wife, there'll be some for the cub,
Then I think I'll go out for a stroll down the pub –
Yes, for sure it's a mighty fine town oh."

Old Daddy Fox and his cubs and his wife,
Ate up that food without any strife,
And they never had such a supper in their life,
And the little ones chewed on the bones oh.

Now Old Daddy Fox he lives in his den
It's under the holly bush back of number ten,
"Oh we're never going to go back to the country again,
It's a far better life in the town oh."

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17 Sep 04 - 05:03 AM (#1273849)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Dave Hanson

OK so it's an old one ' the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable '
[ Wilde ]


eric

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17 Sep 04 - 06:07 AM (#1273886)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow

They're after Tony Blair now, so it still applies.

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17 Sep 04 - 06:19 AM (#1273895)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: greg stephens

I'd be with Sledge in assuming that shooting was a moderately efficient way to keep foxes down, if it wasnt for the two people shot with rifles in the last two months in England, one of them dead: and both having been mistaken for a fox!

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17 Sep 04 - 06:53 AM (#1273919)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: sledge

How about ensuring that whoever has the liscense to shoot also has a high standard of eyesight. I can only assume that anyone who confuses a person with a fox is an idiot, incompetant or in some other way unfit to own a firearm.

Sledge

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17 Sep 04 - 07:44 AM (#1273936)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow

I'm not clear why there should be any particular need to cull foxes anyway - even free-range hens and so forth normally go indoors at night. Perhaps it's to do with protecting gamebirds, so that the hunting fraternity can shoot them.

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17 Sep 04 - 07:48 AM (#1273941)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Paco Rabanne

Wrong! I lived on a farm for many years, and when a fox gets in at night it will go into hen houses and kill everything in sight.

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17 Sep 04 - 07:55 AM (#1273944)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow

Well he would, wouldn't he, he's a fox, and they are hens.

But how does the fox get into the henhouse? I know foxes are clever, but I don't think there's ever been a fox could open a padlock or even turn a doorknob. "Constructive negligence" I think is the legal term for that kind of thing.

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17 Sep 04 - 07:58 AM (#1273948)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: The Shambles

It was a brave - if doomed attempt to stop this thread from being shoved in the BS section.

I thought for a moment that the gassing and shooting was the punishment being suggested for those who invaded the floor of the House? It will be interesting to see what sentences, (assuming of course that they will even be convicted) the judges will impose upon these fine young and upstanding members of our society?

If they were unemployed and dreadlocked road protestors - I suspect the full weight of the law would descend upon them and gassing and shooting would be thought by some – to be far too good for them.

Not too sure if many of us here have killed animals for food on a regular basis. I have and it was with horror that I witnessed that for some reason - possibly boredom - the games that some of my co-workers needed to invent and indulge in whilst killing. To me it was a question of doing what was needed in the best way possible, for others - taking lives - was something else.

The hunting game can still continue, dogs, horses, red coats and all - the fact that people argue that it will not be same without a killing at the end of it - concerns me. That everyone in the countryside is painted as holding this view also concens me.

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17 Sep 04 - 08:06 AM (#1273956)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Paco Rabanne

McGrath,
       Think "ventilation!" As for the phrase "constructive negligence" that sums up townies attitude to me. End of contribution to this thread!

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17 Sep 04 - 08:21 AM (#1273977)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon

AT LAST, it's about time they gassed or shot those idiots in red jackets. Idiots on horse back chasing foxes to the kill. Foxes ripped to pieces by the dogs.

Please think of it this way - someone today has invented a new game its called "fox hunting" would it happen? I personally don't think so.

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17 Sep 04 - 08:49 AM (#1274002)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow

If you have a shed with livestock inside it, you know that a fox might want to get in and kill them, so you make the shed fox-proof, and you make sure the ventilation doesn't provide a way in. Not particularly difficult, whether you're a farmer with a henhouse or a townie with a shed for pigeons.

If a fox gets in, it means it wasn't done properly. That's what "constructive negligence means". Can't blame the fox for that.

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17 Sep 04 - 09:42 AM (#1274037)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Dave Hanson

' Lamping ' is just as bad as fox hunting with hounds, it is a sport which is done for fun, which is why one boy is dead and a man seruiously injured.
If foxes are considered vermin, why is there a close season ?

eric

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17 Sep 04 - 11:18 AM (#1274122)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: greg stephens

Lamping is done for fun, by cowboys. It is dangerous and cruel. However, our principled moral legislators have just decided,by a majority of 190. that it is a Good Thing. As is cyanide gassing. And these honourable MPs, and their supporters, are somehow seen as occupying the moral high ground . Well, not by me they aren't.
"When the fire's on the hearth
And good cheer abounds
We'll drink to Joe Bowman
And his Ullswater hounds".

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17 Sep 04 - 11:25 AM (#1274126)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST

Lamping

Hunting for foxes and rabbits at night with the aid of powerful spotlights and lurchers is another legal pursuit, so long as it is carried out with the landowner's permission. However, illegal lamping also takes place, and some lampers take badgers. While hunting with dogs remains legal, these persecutors of badgers will always have a cover for their activities.

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17 Sep 04 - 11:36 AM (#1274136)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: The Shambles

The concept that hunting foxes with hounds has or can have any effect on fox populations has never been one with any supporting evidence.

That there is any need for artificial controls on fox populations by any method - is also equally short of evidence.

I think the view of Parliament, is that certain portions of our human population do have a need to inflict violence. However, and especially after the recent bloody confrontations, they may yet have a re-think and decide that it is best that these folk are allowed to be let loose on foxes and badgers - than on Commons stewards, London policemen and MPs.

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17 Sep 04 - 11:42 AM (#1274141)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST

One minor point (pun intended) the red coated brigade are some of the same people who lambasted the actions of minors during their struggle to retain jobs.

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17 Sep 04 - 11:47 AM (#1274148)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST

opps - sorry miner not minor (that would be a whole new thread)

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17 Sep 04 - 04:28 PM (#1274405)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Once Famous

Hey Guest Martian Gibbon

Go stick your head up your pink protruding ass.

Otherwise, I agree with you. The fox hunters are douche bags.

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17 Sep 04 - 06:49 PM (#1274544)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: greg stephens

So, let me get this argument right: some hunters criticised some miners, so all miners should not be allowed to hunt. I dont quite see the logical train there.

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17 Sep 04 - 07:11 PM (#1274559)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: The Shambles

This issue has never had very much to do with logic.......Or trains.

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17 Sep 04 - 07:15 PM (#1274562)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: greg stephens

Unlike "The Wreck of the Old 97"

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17 Sep 04 - 07:20 PM (#1274566)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: The Shambles

LOOK! Will you lot just give-up?

- This thread has been dumped in the BS and the addition of any more songs or clever references to song titles will not get it back up again with the music stuff.

Do you ken - John Peel?

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17 Sep 04 - 07:25 PM (#1274573)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull

Fishing is rubbish, i went fishing with my cousin one day, we sat for 4 hours near the river, i was bored shitless, "don't play loud music, you'll scare the fish, blar, blar, blar"
we was there all day, caught only one fish, i was going to kill it and eat it, but my cousin said its not an eating fish, so we have to put it back!
bloody total waste of time, good job i was not hungry, i said if you cant eat the fish, wahts the point coming all this way, and sitting quietly for 4 hours then???
he says "its relaxing"!
relaxing my arse, big waste of time, lot easier to go to fish shop, don't waste your time sitting near the river, [and have to buy loads of eqwipment as well, [fishing sticks etc].
i never went fishing no more after that, its boring.

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17 Sep 04 - 07:27 PM (#1274577)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull

anyway=i reckon hull river is full of chemiculs and shit, so i bet the fish would be poisunus anyway.

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17 Sep 04 - 07:32 PM (#1274589)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull

Anmyway=if fish are scared of radio music, they must be stupid.

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17 Sep 04 - 07:38 PM (#1274596)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: The Shambles

Gollum!

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18 Sep 04 - 04:12 AM (#1274796)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Dave Hanson

Hey jOhn, the last time I fished I caught a 21lb salmon, pretty soon got sick to death of eating it.

eric

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18 Sep 04 - 06:12 AM (#1274835)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson

Hey Guest Martian Gibbon

I'd like to stick my head up your pink protruding ass.

Otherwise, I agree with you. The fox hunters are pricks.

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19 Sep 04 - 01:21 AM (#1275370)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull

i got some samon from tescos a few weeks ago, it was full of bones, rubbish.

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19 Sep 04 - 06:21 AM (#1275461)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Big Al Whittle

serves you right for messing with tory shop keepers sir jOhn - sainsburys for me every time.

I think we have to mark the card of our American friends here.

This is really nothing to do with anti-hunting per se. Over in England this is class warfare.

Okay there are some people who dislike hunting because it it is a bloody disgraceful thing to chase the fox in that way. If you've ever been to a bull fight and you see that frozen second as the bull enters the ring , hears the crowd and the poor creature thinks what the Fuck is going on here and it pees itself in terror. Its feels horrible for most people, the idea of planning to do that to a sentient creature.

However over in England . this issue is class warfare. The nobs(the rich folk - maybe not all rich but most of them) ride to hounds.

This is payback time for a lot of people. For 18 years we had a right wing government who closed down a lot of the industry in the poor parts of England, and then got up on soapboxes and insulted the people who were out of work. Eighteen years with no sign of deliverance, and these rich guys were the ones voting for this.

Now the riders to hounds have NO idea. None whatsoever of how deeply they are hated.

A few years ago I went one afternoon to a gig out in the country to see a favourite folksinger, and I took a couple of friends who had been miners of course who had lost their jobs.

When we got there the room was full of people in their pinks (as they call their red hunting jackets). The violence of the reaction in my friends took my breath away. They were quite simply ready to kill. One of them declared himself feeling physically sick. We left.

For many people this is a well aimed kick in the goolies to an entire class. Hunt supporters are indeed deluding themselves. There was a feeling that if the recent invaders of the House of commons had been muslim youths rather than hooray henrys, they wouldn't be back on their estates mouthing off to the BBC the next day - they would be detained under the prevention of terrorist act.

I think if they keep on chancing their arm they will get it bitten off eventually.

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19 Sep 04 - 06:48 AM (#1275473)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Jon

Thak God for an end to fox hunting. I would agree that at times there may be a need to control the fox population and I don't think any method of killing an animal is nice (even though I do eat meat).

What I hate above all is a social group going out under the pretence of doing good for the coutryside to exert curelty to animals. I wonder what thrill the bastards get out of it.

The last time I overheard a conversation regarding hunting was quite enlightning (and Pip will witness this). It was not a country person at all but someone from London. One of her reasons was she enjoyed a better class of company and could not accept the alternative of drag hunting as her high brow freinds did not do that.

I think there are perhaps worries for the countyside with the ban but I don't see why alternative events could not be considered. I've only rode a horse a couple of times but what a delight it must be for a child, say one from a town getting out. Drag hunting works, etc. there are plenty of oppertunities to create even a greater industry without involving cruelty to animals. That it's not thought of, illustrates to be the desire for blood and that it's not about anything constructive.

I think the best one recently was the invasion of the House Of Commons. A clear indication of the thugs that enjoy fox hunting.

Jon

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19 Sep 04 - 11:10 AM (#1275570)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST

Is it only here in the UK that fox hunting exists as we know it...or are there other countries that indulge?

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19 Sep 04 - 11:21 AM (#1275579)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Jon

Guest, I think you will find we have a specialy satinic breed of foxes in the uk - at least if the pro hunters are to be believed.

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19 Sep 04 - 11:27 AM (#1275584)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow

Here's a BBC piece about that very thing - Fox hunting worldwide

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19 Sep 04 - 11:38 AM (#1275592)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Jon

Cheers McGrath. It is clearly more widespread than I had realised.

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19 Sep 04 - 11:44 AM (#1275594)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,milk monitor

Thanks....the above was me, forgot to sign in. Interesting link McG. USA apparently doesn't hunt to kill the fox, at least they don't send terriers down the holes to finish them off.

And it is outlawed in Switzerland and Germany completely. Good for them. So not only do they make the best chocolate and get their trains to run on time, they also have animal welfare at heart.

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19 Sep 04 - 05:33 PM (#1275868)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Strollin' Johnny

Hunting may or may not be a satisfactory way of controlling the fox population (the fox population may or may not even need to be controlled for that matter) - but 'sport' it definitely ain't. It's a vile exhibition of man's basest instinct, blood-lust. However much the participants lie about their reasons for taking part (the enjoyment of riding out and other such bullshite), and no matter how they try to disguise the foulness of their pastime by the wearing of their ridiculous fancy-dress and childish horn-blowing, that one simple fact cannot be denied by anyone with half a brain-cell.

And before anyone asks, I live in a rural community.

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19 Sep 04 - 05:57 PM (#1275887)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Jon

Me too SJ, probably about 35 of my 44 years on this planet have been in rural communities. My mother was Shropshire borders where her mother (who was a postmistress in a small village community) took her for walks and explained all the countryside and animals and flowers to her, just as her mother - getting onto my great grandmother now did for her.

It is often given out by the "pro lobby" that people who object are "townies" who have no idea of the countryside. I belong to a family (mother's side - dad is from Norwich - a city background) where I think country dwelling and loathing of fox hunting could easily be traced back 100 years or more.

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19 Sep 04 - 05:59 PM (#1275890)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: McGrath of Harlow

Nothing wrong with fancy dress and horn blowing. As for galloping all over the countryside, and meeting up with your mates in pubs before and afterwards - that all sounds like fun. It all sounds a bit like Morris Dancing on horseback.

Why they need to mess things up by feeling they need to kill something beats me. After all, Morris dancers don't do that, as a rule, and it doesn't stop them having a great time.

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19 Sep 04 - 06:08 PM (#1275900)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Jon

Totally agree there McGrath. I think it's wonderful that people can get pleasure from riding horses through the contryside. It's the bloodlust that is wrong.

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19 Sep 04 - 06:32 PM (#1275922)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon

McGrath
Totally agree, why spoil a nice horse ride by KILLING...

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19 Sep 04 - 08:36 PM (#1276001)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Nigel Parsons

Shambles:

"The concept that hunting foxes with hounds has or can have any effect on fox populations has never been one with any supporting evidence."

So hunting has no effect on fox populations.
So why the outcry against it?

Or are you trying to say that the hunts do kill thousands of foxes but do not affect their population?

Nigel

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20 Sep 04 - 03:19 AM (#1276166)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: darkriver

whups

sorry my mistake


--thought this was a thread about Cletus and the Reg Boys....

doug

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20 Sep 04 - 05:43 AM (#1276247)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Paul Mitchell

"So hunting has no effect on fox populations.
So why the outcry against it?"

The concern has never been that fox hunting will wipe out foxes, or adversly affect the poulation of foxes.

The outcry is based upon the fact that it is an uneccersarily cruel way of killing an animal. There are also other concerns, such as the effect some hunt preperations have on other wild life in the area (having badger sets filled to limit bolt holes for the fox, for example), and the effect uncontrolled hounds can have on other animals (they can make a real mess of a field with pregnant ewes, and have often been known to rip domestic cats apart as the feline screams in agony and fear). Additionally the conduct of many of the hunt has caused much anti hunt feeling in many areas, both the riders and the followers. There are many cases of these people utilising land they have no permission to use for example.

Another growing concern is that the issues related to how the rural areas are treated by central government and its policies have become overshadowed by the hunting debate. The perception is that if you support moves to have the rural areas more fairly treated you are also pro-hunt. This is not a perception based on truth as there are many in the rural areas who do not support the hunt. I am aware that this has stopped many people from rural areas supporting, for example, the Countryside Alliance.

The argument that fox hunting is the best way of controlling fox numbers has never been satisfactorily backed up with reliable statistics. There is no way of denying this. This fact weakens the pro-hunt debate.

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20 Sep 04 - 06:27 AM (#1276264)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Jon

The Countryside Allience is an interesting one. I haven't looked at it properly because of the pro-hunt stance. It would need further resarch for me to find out what else they stand for but without the blood sport bit, it indeed is possible that Pip, Peter and I would all join. I think we all want rural life to continue.

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20 Sep 04 - 06:43 AM (#1276275)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: The Shambles

So hunting has no effect on fox populations.
So why the outcry against it?

If I were to chase you, with hunting dogs for miles across the countryside and allow them to tear you apart when you were too exhausted to run anymore - this would have little effect on the human population either - those chasing you would probably (quietly) agree.

But those chasing you on horse-back will have enjoyed the day trememdously - although you probably wouldn't - but are you not being a little selfish if you make any attempt to deny them their fun?

The main support as I see it comes from those - not even always resident in the countryside - (although how you define where the coutryside now begins and ends is an interesting question alone) who fear that without the pretence of hunting with dogs to kill foxes - that permission for 'hunts' to ride all over private land - will be not be given. This is the fear behind the claim that drag-hunting will not suffice.

This is 'cloud-cuckoo land' for as Paul Mitchell pointed out - despite many damaging advance measures to try ensure that a fox is found for the dogs to chase - many hunts on the day - do not even pick-up the scent of even one fox - let alone manage to kill any. However, I am sure that on these days, the majority of riders and followers enjoy the day just as much.

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20 Sep 04 - 06:46 AM (#1276276)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Big Al Whittle

Foxes ,,,schmoxes....no one gives a damn.

What I am saying is this:-

1) there are a number of people who are unwilling to have the sensual thrill of killing an animal as an integral part of our society - bit like capital punishment , okay?

2) there is a further group (even larger) who hated Thatcher like poison and would like to get one over on the rich bastards she represented so ably those many years. They see the projected hunting ban as revenge on the upper classes.

Unless you stop acting like pea brains and hooligans and start engaging sensibly in this debate you will lose your sport through the democratic process. thats how it works.

Stop demonstrating , start thinking and start talking...if you've got anything sensible to say, I've yet to hear it.

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20 Sep 04 - 06:59 AM (#1276287)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Jon

WLD, I did mention class in this thread or the other where a pro hunt person felt she had a better class of company but at least from my side, class doesn't enter into my objections - anyone is welcome to consider my company not good enough or that someone elses may be better.

If someone if fortunate to own acres of land and enjoy riding horses, I say good luck to them. I'd have no hesitation in hoping they got pleasure out of it. This to me is not about class, it is about insane cruelty to an animal.

I suspect I am far from alone in wanting these people to get pleasure from the countryside but detesting unnecessary torture inflicted on a wild animal.

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20 Sep 04 - 07:00 AM (#1276288)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Stu

I think the focus of this debate needs shifting to the threat of attack on our personal freedoms by the state.

Let me get this straight - I am opposed to hunting with dogs on the grounds of cruelty, but this is only my personal opinion as a leftie Thatcher-hating townie folkie ; )

BUT, I oppose this ban because it directly infringes on the rights of people who take part in an ancient and social event that has real importance to the rural community.

How many people have (rightly) thrown their hands up in horror at the injustice of a PELs system that criminalises landlords and musicians for simply expressing their culture, for free, and for the simple pleasure of it.

To stop hunting, you have to change social and cultural attitudes, not use ill-advised legislation designed to play to the instincts of the party faithful so at least you have something to trumpet about at your national conference.

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20 Sep 04 - 07:11 AM (#1276298)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: greg stephens

The anglers I see on the canal banks pull the fish out and chuck them back in. No pretence of any valid reason for doing so, it's fun. The chicken and pig intensive farms are just unspeakably disgusting, and totally unnecessary to sustain human life or anything. So why aarent the anti-hunters banning these things first? That is the sort of question that needs answering, and until it is answered sensibly the protesters are going to keep complaining, perfectly reasonably, that this ban nothing to do with animal welfare. It is to do with discriminatory social engineering.
   And they are going to continue with their socially divisive protests as long as other people are pushing trhough socially-divisive and discriminatory legislation.

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20 Sep 04 - 07:24 AM (#1276305)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Jon

Greg, you seem to be arguing that one wrong makes another wrong right. It does not, it just so happens that fox hunting has reached public attention. As for your other part, perhaps it would be fair to suggest that people should be more aware of conditions hens might be kept in and that we should protest about it. If evils are sorted one by one, it probably doesn't matter the order they are delat with. Recognition of the evil is the first key...

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20 Sep 04 - 07:28 AM (#1276308)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: greg stephens

Jon: Jesus had a rather good saying about motes and beams. Deal with the very bad things first, deal with the not very bad things later. Otherwise you might just accused of hypocrisy

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20 Sep 04 - 07:34 AM (#1276313)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: The Shambles

How many people have (rightly) thrown their hands up in horror at the injustice of a PELs system that criminalises landlords and musicians for simply expressing their culture, for free, and for the simple pleasure of it.

I must admit that you do have a point. Because (what became) the Licensing Act 2003 was started in the House of Lords, it was possible and we did nearly manage (but for the treachery and stupidity of Lib Dem peers) to get the whole thing thrown-out.

The hunting bill however, was started in the Commons and even if (as looks likely) the Lords reject it - The Parliament Act can be used to make it law.

So hooray that the 'hoorays' have lost but it is a questionable way of doing it.

I don't entirely agree about the traditional right to inflict needless crulty - it would seem that there are many such questionable practices that folk have chosen to give-up. The great shame is that it was even thought necessary to have to propose banning this one.

The fight, I suspect was probably about all of the many frustrations from sections of our still divided nation - rather than that hunting with dogs was really thought to be that important. The importance of it came with the attempt to impose it. The term 'bloody minded' comes to mind........

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20 Sep 04 - 07:40 AM (#1276316)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Jon

Greg, are you seriously suggesting that we should not sort out one evil because a bigger one exists? And who is the judge of the bigger evil? There is at least the point that the hens say provide us with food and the fox does nothing except to chase. Whichever way, should we really wait in order? Should we have a vote to deal with what is most important and take them in turns? Sadly the real world does not work that way and one can only hope that as wrongs of whatever magnitude are recognised, efforts are made to put them right.

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20 Sep 04 - 08:52 AM (#1276363)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Strollin' Johnny

As usual, loads of Red-Herrings being thrown in by people whose argument doesn't hold water. Dragging in supposed 'greater evils' or trying to dispose of the anti-hunting fraternity as simply 'the socially-jealous' are threadbare and impoverished arguments. There is one question here, and one question only - In a civilised society in the 21st century, is there any conceivable justification for human beings killing other creatures in a savage and horrific manner?

There can only be one answer, and anyone with an ounce of decency knows what it is.

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20 Sep 04 - 09:55 AM (#1276409)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,Reynardine

Here in England we have a government agency called DeFRA - popularly known in the countryside as the Department for the elimination of Farming and Rural Activities.

But, hell, it's easier to ban hunting than to solve the Iraq situation or remedy the fact that there is little or no manufacturing done in Britain these days. The ultimate irony will be when the Countryside Alliance outsource their call centre to Mumbhai!

The banning of hunting has everything to do with the class struggle that has marred Britain for generations. All "New" Labour (aka "Old" Conservatism) has done is to perpetuate this to placate MPs who might otherwise get awkward about an issue that really matters.

Nature is red in tooth and claw; man has hunted with dogs ever since dogs were domesticated, it is in the nature of both to do so. It is the "cuddly animals rights and feelings" crowd who are out of step with reality.

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20 Sep 04 - 09:59 AM (#1276413)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Stu

"is there any conceivable justification for human beings killing other creatures in a savage and horrific manner?"

I personally don't think so, but that is not what this is about. We factory farm animals in a barbaric way that makes hunting with dogs look like good animal welfare practice - anyone fancy trying to get legislation through to ban that?

The point is hunting with dogs it that is a cultural tradition, and if you start legislating against cultural traditions and practices you are on a dangerous and slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? There's a lot more involved with hunting than the act of pursuing and killing a fox, and that is what these people are being forced to give up.

I'm not stopping playing music in pub sessions because some politician who hates a tradition he doesn't understand says I should - I suspect that is how the pro-hunters feel.

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20 Sep 04 - 10:18 AM (#1276424)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: The Shambles

The point is hunting with dogs it that is a cultural tradition, and if you start legislating against cultural traditions and practices you are on a dangerous and slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? There's a lot more involved with hunting than the act of pursuing and killing a fox, and that is what these people are being forced to give up.

Sorry I don't go along with keeping cultral traditions that require unnessary death and barbaric cruelty. The Roman Games could be described as a cultural tradition. You have to address the nature of the tradition as well as its cultural value.

I do agree that forcably prevent such things by legislation is not really the best way to go about it. There have been many other 'sporting' practices that have died a natural death - so it is sad that hunting with dogs (and terrifying and killing living animals) has gone on so long. Possibly it has gone on for so long because so many people do not appove of it and have been so vocal and active in opposing it?

It is being done now as a sop to traditional labour voters who thought that this Government would have banned the practice in its first term. In the (now vain) hope that these voters will forget all the other terrible things that this Government have done (or have not done).

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20 Sep 04 - 11:09 AM (#1276453)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST

Ok then Stigwear lets bring back those lovely old ancient and traditional past times of legal cockfighting, badger baiting and lets get started on importing some bears so we can get on with baiting them as well.

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20 Sep 04 - 11:20 AM (#1276460)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST

Stigweard what is the name of the stuff you have been drinking?

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20 Sep 04 - 12:39 PM (#1276498)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Strollin' Johnny

See - they can't justify it so they drop in yet more Red Herrings! It's not comparable to playing a tune or two in a pub, its a barbaric and unjustifiable activity, and anyone who can't see the difference must be a few sausages short of a barbeque.

But don't worry folks - they can argue and bluster and whine all they like, but the writing's on the wall for the blood-maddened barbarian hordes.

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20 Sep 04 - 02:54 PM (#1276619)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Stu

Strollin' Johnny:

Read my posts - I agree that this 'sport' is cruel and it certainly is not on my list of preferred activites, along with hare coursing, bullfighting and dogfighting etc. Where do you draw the lines when it comes to the state intervention on an individuals life? Hunting requires social change to stop it, and this is how it should be.

What about fishing? I will fish for food as well as sport - I would kill and eat a fish. But most fishermen in this country are course fishermen, and that's a different matter. Hooking a fish is cruel and barbaric too, causing suffering and trauma to the fish - should we legislate against that too? Not likely - why alienate a large proportion of the electorate when targeting a few toffs will do the trick just as well?

There is a lot more to this argument than poor old Reynard copping his lot at the hands of a pack of dogs. The Countryside Alliance, the main body involved in co-ordinating the protests, are becoming increasingly political as it is the only way rural tories can give the incumbent government a bloody (ied?) nose, especially after the fuel protests failed a couple of years ago.

I am not pro-hunting, I am anti-hypocritical politicians doing exactly what the myself and The Shambles both said: "It is being done now as a sop to traditional labour voter".

Just in time for conference season.


P.S. "It's not comparable to playing a tune or two in a pub, its a barbaric and unjustifiable activity" - ah ha! Most people would say my playing in a session was a barbaric and unjustified activity.

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20 Sep 04 - 03:42 PM (#1276645)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST

I agree Blair may be using it as a vote puller. But still welcome it. If those who gain pleasure from seeing a fox ripped to shreds don't have the compassion to realise this themselves, they are never going to agree on it being imposed. The majority of hunters are from the class where they dish out the orders. The fox has turned.

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20 Sep 04 - 05:37 PM (#1276738)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: greg stephens

A lot of people seem a bit confused because they dont like yobbish aristos with red coats. Fine, shoot them, or remove their coats, or their land, or whatever you can persuade parilament to endorse. The huntsmen I have known over the years are/were all in north Lancashire and Cumbria. They were not aristos, landowners, redcoat wearers or horse riders. (The fells are a bit steep for that). Sure they were cruel,but that is hardly the issue. This legislation replaces hunting with dogs with eh alternatives of cyanide or guns, just as cruel. These people were not bad...or if they were, only in the sense that the rest of the population is good and bad in parts. I really dont want to see my friends demonised by a group of people who have become confused by posh hooray henries in redcoats in Leicestershire. They are of no interest to me at all.
   And no, I've never hunted, and never will.I dont really like hunting. But I really seriously dont like hypocrisy.

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20 Sep 04 - 06:17 PM (#1276763)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: GUEST,milk monitor

Greg I think the issue is the cruelty. I am an out and out townie and have no idea if fox numbers have spiralled to such an extent that they need controlling.

I see many roaming around London, they are grey and mangey and normally nose deep in a chinese takeaway carton,   but it doesn't make me want to torture them.

But IF they do need controlling in the countryside, and the henhouse argument wouldn't be enough to sway me, (why not build fox proof structures), I would rather they have a quick relatively painless death at the hands of someone employed and skilled in doing the job. As you mentioned with the shooting. Cynanide sounds slower and therefore my knee jerk reaction is that it isn't a good option.

But when the death is slow and laboured, as with hunting, and the end result of something called sport...I have a problem with it?

And when we hear that hunting doesn't actually have any effect on the numbers of foxes, it just leaves me asking why do hunters do it then? Where is the feel good factor in watching an animal suffer, and there obviously is pleasure in it for the hunters, because there is no other valid reason for them to do it. They aren't doing the country a great service.

I think the red coated, bugle blowing twats have been the most visible in the field, although I have no doubt in what you say about many class of people indulging. But it still doesn't make it right in my eyes. My only problem with the ban is why we have to wait until 2006 for it to be enforced?

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21 Sep 04 - 08:46 AM (#1277240)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: Strollin' Johnny

It's cruel, it's wrong. Nothing to do with those red herrings jealousy/politics/toffs as far as I'm concerned, just barbarism that needs ending. Allow it to continue and we might as well bring back badger-baiting, cock- and dog-fighting, burning at the stake, drowning women who own black cats etc., etc., etc., - it belongs in the same age.

And yes, fishing's cruel as well (and I used to be an angler - note 'used to be').

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21 Sep 04 - 09:17 AM (#1277263)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: mooman

I find any form of hunting animals for entertainment barbarous, both as a biologist and a human being.

If some enjoy the outdoor nature of it, the social aspects, and riding or following, I cannot see why they cannot do drag hunting, as Jon described below (or above depending which way you look at it).

I enjoy practicing archery...but only at inanimate targets.

Peace

moo

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21 Sep 04 - 08:04 PM (#1277802)
Subject: RE: Hooray: it's gassing and shooting
From: The Shambles

I am a bit worried that some people seem to think that drag hunting is a good idea.

Now I often dress up in drag - and the last thing I want when I go stumbling across the countryside in my 'lippy' and hi-heels is to be chased by a pack of hounds and men in red-coats. On second thoughts - bring it on..........

Is there any real reason why following a drag-line scent could not replace a fox and keep all the livery stables, farriers etc all in business and permit everyone to dress-up and ride about the countryside pretty much as before?

For example - would it be difficult to keep the hounds on the drag-line scent and prevent them picking-up the scent of wild animals?

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