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19 Sep 04 - 12:19 PM (#1275613) Subject: When it's your own........ From: fat B****rd I count my blessings when I see or read about dreadful things happening in various parts of the world but my son, Luke, was badly punched, kicked and beaten by a "gang" in the early hours of Saturday moprning. Kicked in the head (by a girl) as he lay unconscious and bleeding. Hopefully prosecutions will be forthcomoing but after seeing him I wish the bastards dead. I don't give a fuck about abusive childhoods/problem homes etc. He's a placid and friendly 26 year old and was on a night out (rare) with some friends in Darlington (UK). Apparently there were 5 other incidents at the same "Nightclub". Don't say he should have known better. He's not been there before. Sorry for the angst but as my thread name implies........ |
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19 Sep 04 - 12:29 PM (#1275626) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Scooby Doo I am very sorry to hear about your son,i hope he makes a quick recovery and those who did that to him can be prosecured as soon as possible. Yas |
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19 Sep 04 - 12:46 PM (#1275637) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: CarolC So sorry about your son, FB. How's he doing now? |
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19 Sep 04 - 12:53 PM (#1275644) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Dave the Gnome Really sorry, FB. Happened 3 times to me to date. Son #1 on his to the local bowling alley. Son #2 on his way back from the pub and both (twin) daughters on their way back from school in broad daylight! None of them too bad but I know how it feels:-( I live in, almost, inner city Salford so it is the type of thing you grow accustomed if never quite used to. It makes me really angry when the cretinous yobs that do this sort of thing get away with it because someone feels 'it's just high spirits'. I would love to take these people with their heads in the clouds on a trip around Manchester and Salford anytime between 8pm and 4am to watch gangs of young men and women fired up on drink and drugs taking over whole roads, shouting abuse, urinating up walls and making life hell for anyone in their way. With not a policeman in sight! One thing made me feel better recently. My niece and her boyfriend were accosted by a group of 6 yobs . Little did the idiots know that my niece teaches Thai boxing and her boyfriend is very high up the Tai Kwon Do ladder. With one broken nose, one broken arm and another unconcious in the gutter the other three thought it provident to run away. Police did question Neice and boyfriend who were released without charge and given a ride home by a very high ranking and friendly police officer. There is justice occasionaly:-) Hope Luke gets better soon and that you are present when these arseholes get their come-uppance. Cheers Dave |
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19 Sep 04 - 01:40 PM (#1275665) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Rasener Its every decent law abiding parents nightmare. FB I hope everything is OK with your son and that he recovers OK. Why are we all so bloody placid about these things. The police should be given more powers, before we are totally taken over by these yobbo's. We seem to be more concerned about banning fox hunting (not that I support Fox hunting), instead of looking after the safety of the majority of decent law abiding citizens. |
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19 Sep 04 - 01:51 PM (#1275670) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: McGrath of Harlow Whoiever runs that club is clearly not doing something right, and a major part of the blame for this kind of thing should fall on them. |
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19 Sep 04 - 02:00 PM (#1275679) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: katlaughing FB, I am very sorry to hear of this. I hope he is doing alright, considering, and will fully recover, at least physically. This kind of thing can be so incomprehensible to the psyche. Hugs to you both.... kat |
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19 Sep 04 - 02:23 PM (#1275698) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: SINSULL I am sorry, fb. Had it happen to my son and to my nephew. Always a gang of five or more and a single victim. Your son will have a case of the "I should have"s when he recovers. It's important that he know he did nothing wrong. Bullies always find a victim. For now, I hope he recovers quickly from the physical effects. I also hope that these "poor unloved etc" animals get theirs if only to send a message that you cannot go around beating the crap out of innocent people even if your father was a bastard. |
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19 Sep 04 - 02:34 PM (#1275708) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: greg stephens I'm normally in agreement with McGrath's good liberal sentiments, but in this case I have to disagree, quite seriously. The major part of the blame for yobs attacking people should be be allocated to the the yobs attacking people. If I do something bad, I expect to be prosecuted. I do not expect the landlord of the pub down the road to be prosecuted. Irt's quite simple really. |
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19 Sep 04 - 03:43 PM (#1275773) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Keith A of Hertford My kids are that age FB. I can imagine how I would feel. |
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19 Sep 04 - 04:10 PM (#1275794) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Peace fB, I know it doesn't help, but please accept my best wishes for your son. It's no consolation, but the few days immediately following a beating of that nature are rough ones because no doubt your son looks like hell about now. That clears up. He will heal and get better. And so will you, my friend. Bruce M |
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19 Sep 04 - 04:40 PM (#1275818) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Mrs.Duck Something not dissimilar happened to my daughter (then age 19) about this time last year. She was attacked by a drunken girl of fifteen but due to her age the girl got off VERY lightly. Pass on our best wishes to your son. Its a hard time to be a parent! |
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19 Sep 04 - 05:57 PM (#1275886) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: ThreeSheds I've got a lad of 12 who looks possibly 18 he is obviously not out at night when the pub scene is in full swing but the crack heads don't keep pub hours. I have never been afraid to walk any where, Mylad has unlike so many of his contemporarys has been brought up to cross the road, to walk to school, to look after himself ( not in a martial arts way). But it is a concern when there appears to be such an in crease in random violence to think that as a tall innoffensive youth that he will be targeted. The increase in violence that I percieve is not due to sensationalisnm that can be read about in the newspapers, but what has happened to people that I know. But its his world and for him to live in,life can be good,so he wont be wrapped in cotten wool. Children have to be let go as much as you#d like to protect them and laying the blame for occurences doesnt move us on. I really feel for FB I suppose there must be ways ofdealing with the rage that is felt for the perpetrators but how do you deal with the rage against sheer pointlessness |
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19 Sep 04 - 06:14 PM (#1275904) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: McGrath of Harlow "Apparently there were 5 other incidents at the same "Nightclub" " That's doesn't sound like just the odd scuffle you might get in the best run pub, that's a venue which is seriously out of control. Coming down hard on the actual thugs is necessary enough, but it's only part of what needs to be done in that kind of situation. I don't know if that counts as "good liberal sentiments" or not, but I am pretty sure that that is how the police would be likely to see things. |
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19 Sep 04 - 06:21 PM (#1275912) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: LilyFestre YIKES!!!!!!!!!! I'm really sorry to hear about your son and hope that he is recovering nicely and getting some rest. What an awful thing. :( Lily |
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19 Sep 04 - 07:04 PM (#1275943) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: freda underhill Hi, fat b, I feel for you as something similar happened to one of my kids once. I know it IS different when it happens to someone you love. and, yes, no excuse can make it okay. My kid recovered, and some years later has a great life. best wishes freda |
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20 Sep 04 - 01:02 AM (#1276121) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Mudlark Dear fB...a horrible thing to happen. I hope Luke recovers fully with as little scarring as possible, both inside and outside. Being the brunt of senseless cruelty and brutality is difficult to get the mind around. Your rage must be monumental, I know mine would be. Best wishes to you both. |
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20 Sep 04 - 02:45 AM (#1276153) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: alanabit My sympathy too. I am sure you are much more angry about it happening to your son than you would have been if it had happened to you. To some extent I have become spoilt by living in Cologne. Of course, one has to constantly put up with rude and anti social behaviour on public transport (I prefer to cycle if I can), but actual beatings are very rare. I think the deterrent here, which seems to work better than the British system, is that the police usually arrive at the scene very quickly, so there is a larger chance of the assailants being caught. Severe sentences (by British or American standards) are almost unknown. I should add that I have no sympathy at all for those who go out and beat others just for their own enjoyment. Regrettably, these people have always been around. I always enjoy stories about these oafs getting their comeuppance. I found Dave the Gnome's story very gratifying. I hope your son recovers very quickly. |
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20 Sep 04 - 03:02 AM (#1276160) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Liz the Squeak Deepest and heartfelt sympathies for you and your son, a kick in the head is no picnic, regardless of who delivered it. I hope all goes well and there is no lasting damage for either of you! I was under the impression that if an incident occurs in a club/pub then the licence holder/landlord is liable. Certainly a landlord will be seriously looked at if drugs are found on the premises - they could lose their licence and be closed down for any amount of time. If there had already been several incidents in this club that evening, then obviously the management were not safeguarding the interests of their customers. Having been requested to leave a pub just for protecting my own child (then a toddler) against an unsupervised boy on a bicycle, I know landlords can be pretty sharp on this. (What I didn't know was that the boy on the bicycle, racing about the play area of the pub garden, was the landlords' best friend's boy). LTS |
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20 Sep 04 - 03:50 AM (#1276195) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: catspaw49 I must have hit the wrong button earlier as my post is missing.......It simply agreeed with the others and I send you and yours my best. Sad state of affairs in this world........ Spaw |
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20 Sep 04 - 04:05 AM (#1276207) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: fat B****rd Thank you all so much. His head injuries are not "Life Threatening" but he looks like a Tyson victim. He's on "liquids" for now but he's resilient and had got enough about him to be bored with inactivity. Thank you all again. ATB from Charlie (fB) |
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20 Sep 04 - 06:40 AM (#1276274) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: MBSLynne Oh no! How awful! My son is 13 and has had various bits of trouble at school, though nothing approaching that, of course. You must feel murderous and also totally frustrated that you can't actually do anything. I'm scared of the time when Richard will be going out on his own and in more danger of this sort of thing, and I feel really helpless because there's not really anything I can do to protect him. I really hope Luke recovers well with no after effects. Love Lynne |
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20 Sep 04 - 08:56 PM (#1276878) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: bbc Please tell your son that your many Internet friends care & that we are wishing him a full & speedy recovery, both physically & emotionally. I have sons 19 & 22 & can't imagine how I'd feel in a similar situation. Best to you both, Barbara |
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20 Sep 04 - 10:13 PM (#1276918) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: GUEST,SueB I'm sorry, fB. Laws are different in our different parts of the world, but if it had happened here, to a child of mine, some of the things that my husband would do would be to sue not just the nightclub, but also to file personal suits against the owner, the manager who was on duty, the bartender, the bouncer, and any other staff that might have been on hand that night. He maybe wouldn't be able to get them all into court, but it wakes people up to think that they might be held accountable for things that happen when they're on the scene. It doesn't cost that much to have your attorney send a threatening letter, if nothing else. It's also not too hard to convince health and building and liquor license inspectors to pay a few visits, and to have your attorney send a letter the nightclub's insurer. Is there a landlord? You can go after a landlord, here. And while he was pursuing these options, he would also be very quietly trying to find out the identity of the sociopaths responsible, their addresses and where they work and what they drive, and some time later, after the incident was presumed forgotten, those thugs would probably wind up in the hospital themselves. Are you allowed to carry mace, in England? My two daughters and I carry mace and/or pepper spray. There's also a gizmo that you can carry on a keychain that sounds like a siren when triggered. Anything to give you a headstart, running. |
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20 Sep 04 - 10:31 PM (#1276931) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Bobert Prayers and good thoughts, Luke. Bobert |
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20 Sep 04 - 11:11 PM (#1276954) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Peg I am so sorry to hear about your son. Here's wishing him a speedy recovery! The gangs are getting bad in Boston--I was mugged last fall. Murders are up too--51 already this year alone, up four fold from the last two years *but still fewer than there were ten years ago. It's sad to see youth so disaffected and devoid of compassion--let's hope they all straighten up soon. |
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20 Sep 04 - 11:25 PM (#1276960) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Teresa Best wishes for your son's recovery, fB. If he's getting bored with inactivity, that is a good sign of recovery! :) T |
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21 Sep 04 - 04:16 AM (#1277075) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: fat B****rd I would love to sue the club, kill the bastards who did this and have an end to this grotesque weekend pattern of violence that seems to be a part of life nowadays. Unfortunately, or maybe not, Luke really doesn't remember too much about the whole thing until he woke up in an ambulance. He's been to Darlington police Station and won't be pressing charges. To secure a conviction needs absolute proof. Once you're separated from your friends and away from the club there's not a lot you can do. Also these people are vindictive and vengeful. On the good side he seems to be healing as well as can be expected and I will let you know how he's doing after I call him this morning. Thanks again to you all. love from Charlie fB. PS. He's glad his nose is OK !! |
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21 Sep 04 - 08:09 AM (#1277210) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: GUEST,James I am truly sorry about your son and I hope he makes a speddy recovery. Unfortunately thugs of this type are seldom punished, even if caught. Here, in Canada, so called "young Offenders, have carte blanch to committ mayhem. I hope the same is not true in the UK. |
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21 Sep 04 - 09:21 AM (#1277269) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: LilyFestre Glad to hear your son is doing ok!!!!! :) I think it's funny how people are glad that certain things are okay...like your son is about his nose! My mom recently fell and hit her head on a wooden chair. She gota greenish bruise on her cheekbone, a huge black and blue on her chin as well as a black eye. Her response? I am SO glad I didn't break my glasses! Meanwhile...I'm thinking...I'm so glad you didn't break your NECK!!!!!!!!! Again, very happy to hear that your son is going to be ok! Let him know that folks around the world are thinking of him! Michelle in Pennsylvania, USA |
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21 Sep 04 - 03:16 PM (#1277561) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Maryrrf Oh that is terrible. I'm glad he is recuperating. Is this sort of thing widespread in the UK??? I thought gangs were more of an American problem? |
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21 Sep 04 - 05:48 PM (#1277691) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Chris Green Christ, mate! Hope he gets better quick and doesn't let the experience put him off going out with his mates of a Friday night. I know exactly how you feel as regards the whole revenge thing - a simliar thing happened to my younger sister a few years ago and if I could have got hold of the bastards I'd have put them in the ground. |
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22 Sep 04 - 03:35 AM (#1278007) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: fat B****rd I'm off to see him this morning. I'll get back to all you wonderful people. Love from Charlie fB. |
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22 Sep 04 - 03:56 AM (#1278013) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Roger the Skiffler Sorry to hear this, Charlie, all the best to you, Ann and, of course, Luke. Hope his looks aren't impaired ( he DID inheri your good looks, didn't he, Charlie???(**BG**) and the head injury not serious. RtS (I had an MRI scan for a minor inner ear problem yesterday: the say they could detect no sign of a brain!) |
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22 Sep 04 - 05:39 AM (#1278053) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: jacqui.c Hi Charlie Sorry to hear about this. Hope Luke's recovering well now. I worked for Victim Support for a while and know that this type of incident is becoming more common. It is so frustrating when there seems to be little or no chance of retribution against the perpetrators, but the CPS are so overworked that, rightly or wrongly, they do not want to pursue cases that they feel have little chance of proceeding. Added to that the fear of victims in going forward for fear of reprisals..... Victim Support may contact Luke to see if they can be of assistance - even if it's just someone to let off steam to. They may also be available to relatives and can be helpful at a time like this even if just to give advice on the possibility of applying for a Criminal Injuries Compensation award. All the best, anyway. |
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22 Sep 04 - 09:06 PM (#1278758) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: SINSULL His nose is OK? Great! But how about his teeth? My son is still having dental work done. He did get some compensation from Criminal Victims' Services. They contacted us after a court appearance. Try to put it behind you and let him get on with growing up, fb. You will of course lose sleep night after night worrying. Being a parent is fun, isn't it? Mary |
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22 Sep 04 - 10:45 PM (#1278807) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: YorkshireYankee Can't add much to what's already been said, but SO sorry to hear this has happened! It is harder to deal with when it happens to someone you love than it is if it's "just" you, isn't it? The rage and the (sumultaneous) feeling of helplessness is a terrible combination. Glad he seems to be recovering well. Please continue to keep us posted. |
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23 Sep 04 - 05:28 AM (#1278969) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: fat B****rd He's looking better already. Nose and teeth intact. Unfortunately his mother (we're divorced) had arranaged for a new fireplace and boiler to be fitted this week so he's ben surrounded by banging and hammering and as a real bonus no hot water !! he's getting on with his life and as a special (overdue) treat from his dad I'm taking him to a Martial Arts Tournament next week. Just to watch, mind ! My Step-daughter works for Victim Support and she'll be helping from that angle. He's not pressing charges as these things are maddeningly difficult to prove. There is a lot of night-time trouble in Darlington with "certain sections of the community" seemingly waging a reign of teror.A dreadful sign of the times, I'm afraid. I'll be printing all your wonderful words and taking them round for him. I've been passing them on verbally but it's not the same, is it ? My love and thanks to you all ATB from Charlie Stenger fB. |
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23 Sep 04 - 11:27 AM (#1279158) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Dave the Gnome I thought you had started on the old 'had his teeth out and a fireplace fitted' routine:-) Glad he is feeling so much better. Let him do the martial arts thing. I do Escrima. Doesn't do much to improve my chances in a scrap but whacking sticks together doesn't half help vent frustration! Cheers DtG |
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23 Sep 04 - 11:41 AM (#1279165) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: open mike as for tracing the thugs by their employment and vehicles.. they probably have neither.... i hope all goes well for Luke. Glad to hear he has a Victim advocate on his side.. |
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24 Sep 04 - 11:51 AM (#1280049) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: CapriUni Found this thread just before it went off the end of the page (just in the nick of time!) Glad to hear Luke is doing better, and that his nose is in good shape. Noses do more than make the face pretty; they're damned important to breathing. I like breathing. It's an activity I recommend for everyone. So take a deep breath, fB, and remind yourself and Ann and Luke that there are more people wishing him luck than there were who beat him up. Joys, love, and health to all of you. Ann, City of Chesapeake, Virginina, USA |
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24 Sep 04 - 12:49 PM (#1280095) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Tannywheeler So let's hold hands in a circle and pray for the perretrators of this horror. ("Veruly I say unto you... pray for those who despitefully use you.") Non-Christians may want to continue sending good vibes to Charlie and Ann and Luke for their healing. Almighty God, we pray that those who did this terrible thing get personal, first-hand understanding of what an incident like this does to a person --first-hand, personal experience being such a good teacher. We pray further that these same perpetrators get first-hand, personal experience of how to be the kind of person that could never do this kind of thing to anyone; that, having come to that better place, they develop some real, effective methods for teaching it to others who might be going down their old violent road. We are grateful that You have excellent grammarians who can untangle this. Help us to refrain from acting on our feelings of frustrated vengeance. Awaken the Darlington police and put them on the scene often enough to stop such incidents and make the whole region a safer, saner place to be. In Christ's name, and For His Sake, Amen |
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25 Sep 04 - 02:28 PM (#1280878) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: fat B****rd I had a chatty phone conversation with Luke this morning. He's pleased no end with all your support and was, at the time, bathing Jake his surrogate son by a previous "relationship". I've sent off for tickets to next weeks Martial Arts thingy and he's going back to his Uncle's Thai Boxing classes. Personally, I must use my Gym membership and lose the excess poundage I've enjoyably accumulated over the years !. Luke is even thinking of going back to work but the Doc's not too sure. Good attitude, though, eh ?? I'll update from time to time but for now my (our) thanks and appreciation for all the threads and PMs. Love and all the best from Charlie Stenger fB XXXXXXX |
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26 Sep 04 - 12:55 PM (#1281499) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Maryrrf So glad to hear, Charlie, that he's recuperating both physically and psychologically. As in the case of my stolen CD's (very trivial in comparison), I lost the CD's but also the sense of security in my neighborhood. I've adjusted, and of course now am much more careful about locking doors, but it's probably not entirely a bad thing to be more aware of what's going on around you, and to keep in the back of your mind that not everybody is to be trusted. If you can only hang on to that fine line between being a real cynical, suspicious pessimist and a trusting innocent! |
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26 Sep 04 - 09:06 PM (#1281859) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Gypsy Charlie, just saw the thread. My heart goes out to you and your son. Literally, i am amazed at what the world is coming to. Even i can remember a time when this would be shocking, because people just didn't do such a thing. Now, i fear, it is becoming all too common. My prayers to you and your son. I am so very sorry about what happened. |
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27 Sep 04 - 03:07 AM (#1282009) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: fat B****rd Thank you Mary and Gypsy. He's on the up and up. Love from Charlie. |
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27 Sep 04 - 06:30 PM (#1282603) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: bbc I'm glad our words, thoughts, prayers are a help to you & your son. Things like this are what make Mudcat a special place. best, Barbara |
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27 Sep 04 - 10:39 PM (#1282759) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: GUEST,peedeecee FB, I offer you heartfelt sympathy -- but I also want to offer you one bit of consolation: I'm sorry Luke was a victim, but think how much worse it would be if he was one of the perpetrators. You must be a good father. |
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28 Sep 04 - 01:52 PM (#1283330) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: fat B****rd Not as good as I should have been. His mother, my ex-wife, deserves the credit for whatever good qualities Luke has. Anyway, we're off to the "fights" on Saturday night and I know he's looking forward to that. Love and thanks from Charlie fB. |
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28 Sep 04 - 03:30 PM (#1283402) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Blissfully Ignorant My heart and hopes go out to you and your son. And as for the inhumane scum who did this to him, i sincerely hope their karma comes round and gives them a big kick in the arse. I agree that youth and a troubled background cannot in any way excuse their actions- hell, we've all had a hard life, we don't go around committing random acts of violence toward innocent victims. However- "It's sad to see youth so disaffected and devoid of compassion--let's hope they all straighten up soon. "? Tarring all young people with the same brush is not only ill-informed and discriminatory, but serves to increase the void of misunderstanding between the generations and confirm the erronious conception present in so many youthful minds that it's case of 'us versus them' I am 17 and abbhor violence, whoever is perpetrating it, and have myself been a victim of a similar assault; however, i am not prepared to condemn the entire body of my peers. Niether am i prepared to adhere to the aforementioned 'us versus them ' mentality. There is a silent majority of young people who are not thugs, do not rebel purely for the sake of rebelling, and are willing and able to find some common ground, and discuss these matters openly; and possibly find some solutions :) Again, my thoughts are with you and your son, FB, and i'm sorry if this seemed undermined by the point i felt i had to make- i didn't intend it that way! :) best of luck, and a speedy recovery! |
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28 Sep 04 - 06:17 PM (#1283532) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Gypsy wee bit of thread creep here...........Blissfully Ignorant.......an excercise i perform regularly is to go 24 hours without using the words "us" or "them" When all is "we", the world is a better place, and you certainly speak more nicely! I agree with you on polarizations........don't like 'em either. |
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29 Sep 04 - 06:15 PM (#1284365) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Blissfully Ignorant Good idea, Gypsy, we should start a international 'we' day. How is luke, FB? |
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29 Sep 04 - 09:46 PM (#1284549) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Peace Ditto that, fb. |
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30 Sep 04 - 03:19 AM (#1284683) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: fat B****rd Good Morning. Luke is back at work and nearly as handsome as his Dad again. He sounds fine (he was on his way to night shift at t'plastics works)and is looking forward to the Martial Arts Tournament on Saturday night. I can't say often enough how much I appreciate all the messages and PMs I've recieved. They really have helped to deal with this "incident". It's great to be reassured that the Good Guys and of course Gals are still in the majority. Love and thanks again from Charlie Stenger fB |
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30 Sep 04 - 10:07 PM (#1285488) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: bbc Yay! Thanks for sharing the good news. Barbara in NY |
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30 Sep 04 - 10:21 PM (#1285496) Subject: RE: When it's your own........ From: Peace Thanks, Charlie, and say hello to Luke. BM |