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07 Oct 04 - 07:30 PM (#1291699) Subject: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: beardedbruce Given the recent refusal of the Iranian government to comply with UN efforts to halt it's nuclear program, and the following news, what do YOU think that the US should do? Everyone here (myself included) has commented on Iraq , looking back, but can any of us figure out what to do here? "The missiles were proudly displayed last month during a military parade in Tehran with banners draped over them saying "we will crush Israel and the U.S." Observers say Iran's latest missile proclamations may be directed at Israel, which has been threatening in recent weeks to attack Iran's nuclear facilities. If the new Shahab-3 matches Iran's claims, not only would Israel be within its range, but so would be parts of Europe, Russia, China and India. If true it would also likely further raise international concerns about Iran's missile and nuclear activities. Iran has said all along that its missile program is one of deterrence, its nuclear activities for the peaceful production of electricity." hindsight is 20/20- but are we blind to the future? |
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07 Oct 04 - 08:56 PM (#1291791) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace Tell them very quietly that any launch will receive an automatic response of 20-1. That may cool things down. |
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07 Oct 04 - 09:01 PM (#1291797) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: beardedbruce and when they launch, since they will not believe we would do anything? Do you really think that the US would retaliate for an attack on say London or Paris? After all the noise about Iraq? MAD only works when both sides are sane. |
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07 Oct 04 - 09:17 PM (#1291810) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace BB: I have felt for years that when a country uses a weapon of mass destruction, thus placing itself outside the human family, there IS only one response. That's it. Why frig around? My notion about North Korea was to lend South Korea the same number of missiles. Tit for tat. Let's not pretend to a civility when it comes to WMDs. There is no such thing as "Oops. Little mistake there. Didn't mean to kill all those people in your country. So sorry." Frig that. Also, the countries you mention (most if not all) have the same capability. Nothing here mentions the USA. They are not the goddamned cops of the world, and they are not the only country capable of protecting itself. Simple, really. If you do this, this is what will happen, and there is not one damn thing you can do about it. So, behave and make nice. |
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07 Oct 04 - 09:23 PM (#1291819) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: beardedbruce basically, I agree with you. But everyone here has been talking about how much better they could have handled Iraq, and I thought I would see how many of them would be ready to destroy a country because of the decisions of it's leaders. |
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07 Oct 04 - 09:57 PM (#1291854) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: dianavan I despise the Mullahs of Iran but... lets face it, they are surrounded by U.S. guns. They are wise to let the U.S. know that they have nuclear capability. What frightens me is the connection between the Mullahs and their terrorist organizations which I believe includes AlQaeda. The link between Islamic Fundamentalists in Iran and AlQaeda keeps rearing its ugly head. Is this just another rumour started by the U.S. to justify another invasion? I'd say the best thing for the U.S. to do at this point is get the hell out of the Middle East! When will the U.S. understand that some countries are not for sale? diana |
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07 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM (#1291871) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace I agree with D'van. However, I don't see that happening anytime soon. All that oil. BB: I am very much left of center on most issues. Certainly, you and I have butted heads on various political threads (chuckling here to myself), but this particular conundrum has puzzled people for ages. I do know from fighting that if a person tells me he's going to hit me, I strike the guy immediately, as hard and fast as I can. (I am too old for prolonged fights, and I tend to take people at their word.) My view is this: I see no reason to doubt my opponent. I should point out that I have been in one semi-serious altercation in about two decades. I was a third party who wanted to prevent a fellow older than me from being pummelled by a fellow who was both younger and bigger. The situation achieved a satisfactory resolution (from my point of view). People are afraid of nuclear weapons, justifiably. However, they really are just BIG bombs. The place I would disagree with you is where you say MAD only works if both sides are sane. If I were one of the sides, I would do my best to convince my opponent that 1) I am crazy enough to match him 20 to 1 and 2) I will be spending lots of time paying attention to every single breath he takes. IMO, MAD is not about bluff: it is about "this is what will happen if you launch", and there isn't all that much you can do about it. Smile, because you're now on Candid Camera. |
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07 Oct 04 - 10:47 PM (#1291899) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: beardedbruce I should have said that MAD only works when your opponent believes you will use the weapons, and has enough sanity to not want to be destroyed. I do not see that this is the case at the present time. |
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07 Oct 04 - 10:54 PM (#1291906) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Bobert Well, first of all, there isn't just one thing that needs to be done but many. Anyone thinking that one response is the only action that is needed is not thinking creatively so here a re few things that need to be done: 1. Quiet diplomacy: Find an intermediary and work toward private meetings between the US and the Iranian leaders. 2. Call for a MiddleEast Summit as proposed in the Saudi Proposal. 3. Pick up where Clinton left off in the Isreali/Palestinian negotiations which will creat some level of credibility for the US. 4. Make every effort to prop up the United Nations since the haste in invading Iraq and giving the UN no more than lip service badly weakened it. 5. Try to negotiate a high level visit to Iran perhaps by Colin Powell. 6. Be prepared to offer a non agression pack, similar to what N. Korea has been asking for, in exchange for verifiable roll back of nuclear programs in Iran. 7. Offer nuclear generated electric power assistance to Iran. 8. Get rid of the Bush adminsitration since it is viewed by the rest of the world as agressors. 9. Revive non-proliferation treaties and negotiations. 10. Offer to purchase stockpiles of nuclear material to get it out of the market. 11. Enter into serious negotiations with Russia and Putin to be sure that Russia's stockpiles are protected. 12. Rescend the "Pre-emptive Doctrine" which has done nuthing but make other nations distrustfull of the US. Those are a just a few ideas that need further exploration. Threatening folks is absolutely at the top of the "Not to do" list... It is stupid foriegn policy. Bobert |
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07 Oct 04 - 10:54 PM (#1291908) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,guest what to do? invade iraq, of course. |
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07 Oct 04 - 10:57 PM (#1291912) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: CarolC I should have said that MAD only works when your opponent believes you will use the weapons, and has enough sanity to not want to be destroyed. I do not see that this is the case at the present time. This makes no sense. Iran watched as Iraq, which had no nuclear weapons, was destroyed by the US. And at the same time, it sees that North Korea, which has nuclear weapons, is not destroyed by the US. So if Iran is, indeed, seeking to get for itself some nuclear weapons, it hardly makes any sense to say that it doesn't have the sanity to not want to be destroyed. I'd say that not getting destroyed is exactly what it wants. |
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07 Oct 04 - 11:03 PM (#1291918) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace Carol makes lots of sense with that, IMO. |
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08 Oct 04 - 12:15 AM (#1291968) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,Clint Keller "…and I thought I would see how many of them would be ready to destroy a country because of the decisions of it's leaders." It would depend on what deeds the decisions led to. I agree in general with all the answers I've read so far. (up to brucie 07 Oct 04 - 11:03 PM) In terms ot the old West, it's ok to shoot the bad guy who shoots at you, and t's ok to beat the bad guy to the draw and shoot him. In the cases of Saddam, we shot at an unarmed bad guy, and killed some of his family, some of his friends, and some innocent bystanders, and got too many of our posse killed. And that's what we did wrong in Iraq. If it was ok to punish people or nations for what they could do, or might do, we'd all be dead or in jail. clint |
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08 Oct 04 - 12:18 AM (#1291969) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: beardedbruce Clint, In the case of Saddam, he said he was armed, we thought he was armed, and we said "stop, or we'll shoot!" quite a few more than the three times required of policemen. |
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08 Oct 04 - 12:24 AM (#1291976) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace "If it was ok to punish people or nations for what they could do, or might do, we'd all be dead or in jail." Ain't THAT the truth. In a general sense, I would love to see a world in which peace was the daily reality and any outbreak of hostility was met with an immediate and very disagreeable consequence. However, I have no idea where we would find a Solomon to run such a place or mete out such decisions. (I am reminded of a line in Jacob Bronowski's remarkable book, "The Ascent of Man": Think it possible, in the bowels of Christ, that you might be wrong.) |
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08 Oct 04 - 12:31 AM (#1291984) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Bert Sure "I" know what to do. Now tell me someone who will LISTEN!!! |
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08 Oct 04 - 01:16 AM (#1292005) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,SueB Thank you, Bobert, for so eloquently saying what should be obvious to anyone with a mental age greater than 10. How about we use our heads, here? |
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08 Oct 04 - 01:20 AM (#1292006) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace 'The missiles were proudly displayed last month during a military parade in Tehran with banners draped over them saying "we will crush Israel and the U.S."' True, SueB, let's use our heads. We ARE over the mental age of ten. Read that. |
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08 Oct 04 - 01:22 AM (#1292008) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: beardedbruce Bobert, You said "Threatening folks is absolutely at the top of the "Not to do" list... It is stupid foriegn policy." Note my first post: "The missiles were proudly displayed last month during a military parade in Tehran with banners draped over them saying "we will crush Israel and the U.S." |
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08 Oct 04 - 01:22 AM (#1292009) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace Besides, someone doesn't throw the first stone, there won't be any second stones, will there? |
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08 Oct 04 - 01:44 AM (#1292016) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,Clint Keller We who, bb? I sure as hell didn't think he was armed. Neither did most of the world. I don't recall him telling the inspectors that he was armed--that he had WMD. And what was it we told him to stop doing or we'd shoot? I believe Mr Bush said we'd invade even if Saddam stepped down. clint |
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08 Oct 04 - 02:03 AM (#1292023) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,SueB Yes, brucie, I can read. You want we should panic and go off half-cocked? Or take a deep breath, think the situation through, and pursue every single possible course of action that our very best strategists and tacticians and diplomats can come up with first? You think CarolC makes sense, I think so too. Lets use our heads and figure this out. Like Bobert said, if I may paraphrase, there's more than one way to skin a polecat. |
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08 Oct 04 - 02:10 AM (#1292026) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,guest why, we told him he must "disarm". but just today, only today the report comes out saying he WAS disarmed. but, gosh, how could anyone have guessed? who knew? everybody in the whole dang world said he had WMDs didn't they? EVERYBODY!! there were not any protesters anyplace in the whole wide world who were saying any different! WERE NOT!! Everything we did was right!! We'd do it all again...all again...all again...just the same...everybody knew...we're safer...safer...kill the bad people daddy... |
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08 Oct 04 - 02:14 AM (#1292028) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace Your notion that anyone who does not agree with you "has the mentality of a ten year old" is offensive. I did NOT say Iran should be attacked. I did say that they should be told where things stand. Diplomacy works best when both sides understand each other. Start with you and me. Don't put words in my mouth, OK? Thank you. |
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08 Oct 04 - 02:21 AM (#1292032) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,SueB brucie, you've got such a bug up your ass about me, you take offense at every opportunity. What words, exactly, did I put in your mouth? |
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08 Oct 04 - 02:31 AM (#1292034) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace Sue, "Yes, brucie, I can read. You want we should panic and go off half-cocked? Or take a deep breath, think the situation through, and pursue every single possible course of action that our very best strategists and tacticians and diplomats can come up with first?" I did not suggest or imply we should panic and go off half cocked. I did say that letting the Iranians know where things stood would make matters clear. What do you see wrong with telling someone that if they attack you, you will respond? Or are only the Iranians allowed to do that? It must be the thinking of their government, because nothing happens there without government approval. What's to think through? They have already said "we will crush Israel and the U.S." Maybe it heralds an opening for diplomacy. Maybe part of that diplomacy could be 'here's what will happen if you try." I have no bug up my ass--as you so blithely put it--with regard to you. What's yours with me? |
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08 Oct 04 - 02:47 AM (#1292041) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Ebbie (I thought I had posted this before, but I don't see it.) The article says, in addition to its braggadocio that Iran "is also planning to send a satellite into space sometime in the year beginning March 2005, the start of the Iranian calendar." That kind of indicates that the swaggering may be simply that, that they're saying, 'Don' mess with us. We bad guys.' A country that is planning a nuclear strike is probably not actively planning a space exploit. It sounds like Iran is planning to be around for the foreseeable future; they must know that any nuclear activity would invite - and receive - punishing retaliation. What brucie said above pretty much describes the Cold War, the policy of tit for tat. Whatever its nervous-making moments, it did work. |
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08 Oct 04 - 02:56 AM (#1292045) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: beardedbruce Ebbie, I posted the notice about the satellite a few weeks ago... "A country that is planning a nuclear strike is probably not actively planning a space exploit." This comment makes no sense at all. Any country that can orbit a satellite has demonstrated that they can place a warhead anywhere in the world. Just look at the Space Race between the USSR and the US- it was to demonstrate military potential. And wasn't it Iran that sent civilians ahead of their troops ( against Iraq) to clear the minefields? Do you think the government of Iran would not attack "The great Satan" just because some people might be killed? |
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08 Oct 04 - 03:03 AM (#1292047) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,SueB Okay, you have no bug up your ass about me. Whatever. One of the things you said above was "I have felt for years that when a country uses a weapon of mass destruction, thus placing itself outside the human family, there IS only one response." Personally, I think that kind of thinking is overly simplistic and more suited to a schoolyard than a highly charged international situation with possible repercussions of such overwhelming magnitude. That we would respond if attacked is a given. To thump our chests and proclaim we have even bigger sticks than they do and we're crazy enough to use them, seems, to me, to lack a certain finesse, and is more likely to cause an escalation of hostilities than to cause Iran to back down. That's just my opinion. |
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08 Oct 04 - 03:18 AM (#1292055) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace I agree. It is simplistic. But, in my opinion, not overly so. Your use of terms like "more suited to a schoolyard than a highly charged international situation" is demeaning, and intentionally so, IMO. You want there to be a "certain finesse". Finesse what? This is not bridge, Sue. And it is not a schoolyard. And it is not about having 'bigger sticks'. It is about having equally destructive weapons and letting an aggressive nation know that it will lose more than it can hope to gain. And that's just my opinion. Also, I probably have read as many books as you, and if you continue to be rude, which is what you are being, I will be rude back. Otherwise, we can agree to disagree and move on from there. OK? |
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08 Oct 04 - 03:49 AM (#1292073) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,SueB You're right, brucie, it's not a schoolyard. I'm not sure what you mean about having read as many books as me - did I somehow imply that you're not a big reader or that I'm a bigger reader than you? And what does that have to do with the situation in Iran? Are you absolutely sure you don't have a bug up your ass about me? It's kind of funny that we're having this exchange - for the most part I think we agree about alot of things, as far as politics go. If you don't mind, I have to get some sleep between now and 1230GMT when the US Initial Claims figures are released. |
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08 Oct 04 - 03:55 AM (#1292080) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace Have a good rest, Sue. Peace, OK? Goodnight. |
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08 Oct 04 - 08:05 AM (#1292203) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,G.W.Bush The answer is simple..we got enuff nucular wepons to make the hole middl east a parking lot. |
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08 Oct 04 - 12:05 PM (#1292384) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Scabby Douglas Hmmm I'm not sure that radioactive oil would help anyone a lot... |
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08 Oct 04 - 12:19 PM (#1292395) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Ebbie bb, my implication was that if Iran - or any other country - were to attack another country that had a treaty with the USA, there is no doubt that the offending country would be swiftly overwhelmed with incoming missiles from the US, as well as those from the targeted country. That's whay I say that if you ae planning a space program, you probably are planning to remain a viable country- and there is no way you would be viable if you were picking yourself up out of radioactive rubble. Man. What a dangerous world. |
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08 Oct 04 - 01:02 PM (#1292434) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,heric Step One: Get Haliburton out of office. Then come back and ask me again, if you still perceive a problem. (P.S. There is a lovely little Iranian film called Children of Heaven, well worth watching.) |
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08 Oct 04 - 03:03 PM (#1292529) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: grumpy al could always go for the ultimate political solution... Nuke 'em all! let God sort 'em out |
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08 Oct 04 - 03:43 PM (#1292564) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: beardedbruce actually, the last idea is what I would want to avoid- but I feel that only by being WILLING to do so can we prevent the need to DO so. |
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08 Oct 04 - 05:35 PM (#1292633) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Bill D I suspect, given past events, that Israel has both a plan and the will to 'defend' itself if threatened by Iran....and I have no doubts that Iran knows this, so playing 'what if' guessing games here seems a bit silly. I just hope Archduke Ferdinand is not planning any trips to the Middle East soon.... |
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08 Oct 04 - 05:37 PM (#1292636) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: beardedbruce BillD, Yes, but Iran MIGHT feel that 200 bombs are worth getting hit with, to get rid of Israel. But 4000+? |
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08 Oct 04 - 06:19 PM (#1292661) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Bill D they might...who knows? In these times, with the hate and layers of animosity on BOTH sides, who knows what might make some 200...4000... numbers, one or two could be enough to do all the damage needed to make life very sad over there.. |
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08 Oct 04 - 06:24 PM (#1292663) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST Agreed- So what can be done, now, to avoid having them used in the future? That is what I am trying to find out in this thread. Everyone seems to "KNOW" that the Bush administration did the wrong thing with Iraq- So what should be done about Iran? ( and North Korea, as well)? If anyone has ideas, lets hear them. Bobert has made some comments that, while I do not think all would be effective, at least address the issue. |
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08 Oct 04 - 06:37 PM (#1292669) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Ebbie bb, the problem is that there is no longer a GOOD way to address it. IF the US had taken care of Osama and the Taliban and then spent x amount of dollars and time in rebuilding Afghanistan, the US would be in a position to exert moral authority over rogue nations. (Ha! Pot to Kettle: Calling!) Way back when the bushits went into Iraq with guns blazing, a number of us on the Cat were saying that it was obvious they knew that Saddam did NOT have WMD or they would not have been so cavalier. Conversely, they KNEW North Korea and Iran were in the building mode so they didn't go there. Now, having compromised both our credibility and our personnel and materiel, we're really not in a position to lead the way. |
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08 Oct 04 - 06:45 PM (#1292674) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Bobert Oh, and something I left out of last night's list which should have been listed roward the top: establish a Department of Peace and fund it adequately. Sure, we have "War Department" even if we don't call it that and that isn't working. Maybe we are doing some things which are just plain wrong in the world that a Department of Peace could bring to out collective attention. Maybe we could put more money in helping folks build hospitals and schools thru such a department and less on arms. Maybe we could use advertising money in both domestic foriegn markets to change the culture of thinking in folks who are way too quick on the trigger finger. This department could hire a mix of advertising folks, psycologists, theologans, socialologist and folks who know how to restore power or build pro-human structures such as theaters, sewage treatment plants, schools, etc... Yeah, what the world need is to cahnge the current downward spiral of war, war and more war. It only benefuts the rich while leaving the rest of the folks either paying for it or dieing from it... Yeah, a Department of Peace... Bobert |
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08 Oct 04 - 06:58 PM (#1292683) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace "Agreed- So what can be done, now, to avoid having them used in the future?" GUEST: I do not mean to be flippant with the following remark: As long as the damnable things exist, there will exist also the possibility of their use, on purpose or by accident. The answer then is a simple one. |
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09 Oct 04 - 01:14 AM (#1292893) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: The Fooles Troupe AlQaeda grew out of Saudi Arabia, not Iran. Nuclear weapons not not just a big bomb, they have global effects that last for thousands of years. A recent documentary on previously secret material just released reveals that my father most likely got caught in the fallout in the rain storms that swept over Queensland in the 1960's from the Pacific tests - subsequent death from leukemia - the circumstances match up very well. Robin |
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09 Oct 04 - 03:25 AM (#1292932) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: dianavan Foolestroupe - I believe that alqaeda did grow out of Saudi Arabia not Iran but I also believe that alqaeda operates within Iran and with the Mullahs. I agree with brucie on this one. There is only one simple answer. NO NUKES! d |
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09 Oct 04 - 03:29 AM (#1292936) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace Robin, I agree on that. My remark was to do with their tactical use. I am only too aware that residual radiation from nuclear blasts generate deadly 'particles' with a half-life measured in thousands of years. We have already put enough into the atnosphere with testing (let alone actual use). My apologies for that remark. Bruce |
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09 Oct 04 - 03:34 AM (#1292943) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST ...and who bells the cat? OK, we agree that the use of nuclear weapons is not permissable. Who is going to go to Iran and North Korea, and take their new toys away before they use them? Everyone here seems to agree that we should not have done anything effective in keeping Iraq from trying to get WMD, so how do we deal with countries that have them, and will probably use them? |
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09 Oct 04 - 03:36 AM (#1292945) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace Good question, GUEST. What do you suggest? |
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09 Oct 04 - 03:45 AM (#1292949) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST Well, we could ask the UN to enforce it's own resolutions.... M\Nope, tried that, it does not work. How about we just destroy all of out own weapons, and trust to the good will of those countries to do the right thing? (sarcasm) I don't know- but I am sure someone here knows exactly what to do... probably several someones... |
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09 Oct 04 - 03:48 AM (#1292950) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Ebbie "Everyone here seems to agree that we should not have done anything effective in keeping Iraq from trying to get WMD, so how do we deal with countries that have them, and will probably use them?" Guest The USA has them- and if I were a bettor I would lay money on the proposition that the NEXT time the US uses them, it will be a 'small, tactical instrument'. Only because there was nothing else that could be done, you know. |
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09 Oct 04 - 04:03 AM (#1292959) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST and your solution, Ebbie? |
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09 Oct 04 - 05:07 AM (#1292989) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Bert See what I mean? Nobody listens. |
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09 Oct 04 - 05:36 AM (#1293001) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: kendall How do you deal with people who WANT to die? shoot them? blow them to hell? How? They are standing in line to die for Islam so how is it a solution to give them what they want? How about this: They abhor pork in any form, so, let's make Jimmy Dean the Secretary of war and drop sausages and HAMburgers on them. |
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09 Oct 04 - 06:30 PM (#1293387) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: beardedbruce kendall, Good idea. Perhaps when we catch Islamic terrorists, we should boil them in pig fat, wrap them in dog skins, and then hang them until they rot. |
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09 Oct 04 - 06:41 PM (#1293392) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: kendall Either that, or we could remove the reasons they hate us. Naw, we'd have to give up all that oil. |
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09 Oct 04 - 07:23 PM (#1293425) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace The problem with nuclear weapons is this: There is not one whole helluva lot a person can do with them, 'cept use 'em or don't. |
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09 Oct 04 - 10:42 PM (#1293543) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace Bookends for the OED? |
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10 Oct 04 - 01:19 AM (#1293605) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,Clint Keller "Everyone here seems to agree that we should not have done anything effective in keeping Iraq from trying to get WMD" We kept them from HAVING WMDs, didn't we? I don't remember any found or being used. Somebody must have done something effective. clint |
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11 Oct 04 - 02:31 PM (#1294445) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace I think what was done that was effective was giving a warning about when the US would invade. Months. That's sufficient time to take the weapons elsewhere. Works in favour of the US, too. Ya can't find what ain't there (anymore), but ya have a real good reason to stick around and look. (Just me and my thousands of armed friends here wanna check out your garage. You don't mind, do you?) |
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11 Oct 04 - 02:47 PM (#1294458) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,Clint Keller Right. Wasn't it Rumsfeld who said that the fact that we didn't find any weapons was a strong proof that they had hidden them? Sheer logic. clint |
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11 Oct 04 - 02:49 PM (#1294463) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace Yep. However, I am of the opinion Saddam had them. What worries me now is who's presently got 'em. They might not be wrapped as tight as Hussein's regime. Scary thought, no? |
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11 Oct 04 - 03:01 PM (#1294472) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: kendall Let's not forget that the only country in the world that ever used nuclear weapons is the same one that now has enough to wipe out everything on earth is....??? Why shouldn't the rest of the world be scared shitless of us? |
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11 Oct 04 - 03:10 PM (#1294480) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Chris Green Iraq had the worst kind of WMDs - the invisible kind. Woooooohhh!! And a mate of mate of mine said that, like, Saddam Hussein had an atomic moustache that could be deployed at, like, 45 minutes notice and apparently gigantic rocks crash into the US at a rate of thirty a week but the government hushes it up... The idea that Saddam Hussein "hid" the amount of chemical biological and nuclear weapons that the hyperbole of the Bush administration claimed he possessed is frankly utter cock. The reason they haven't been found IS THAT THEY WEREN'T THERE! What is there, however, are the second largest oil reserves on the planet. Conspiracy theory anyone? |
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11 Oct 04 - 03:18 PM (#1294484) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Peace Hussein--if anyone cares to go back to 1995--was found to have buildings buried in the sand that had contained the bolt-patterns for a cyclotron. This was determined by inspectors from the US, I believe. Electric power lines simply vanished into the sand. That's how they found it. Probability is that he was separating fissionable material. So, I don't think it unlikely that he had the weapons--at least he had the material to make even ordinary bombs 'dirty'. I don't want to go overboard defending that piece of shite, but neither do I wish to whitewash the US or its motives for being in Iraq. |
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11 Oct 04 - 07:03 PM (#1294693) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: beardedbruce Again, the problem is that if those who think he had them are wrong, we invaded unjustly ( but based on what we knew at the time)> If those who say he did not have them are wrong, we can expect that someday soon hundreds of thousands, if not millions, will have their lives destroyed. I pray that I am wrong in thinking he had them, but had time to hide/give them to others. But I am afraid that I might be right. |
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11 Oct 04 - 11:20 PM (#1294848) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: GUEST,Clint Keller Based on what we know now about WMDs in North Korea, we have more reason to invade them than we had to invade Iraq because they also have a delivery system. No one has explained to me why we don't invade N Korea, but I'm thankful. Look. Let's stop arguing about details. Mr Bush is fond of telling war widows that this mess is worth the life of their husbands, but I don't know of any members of the Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, or Rove families killed in action in Iraq. If Bush & his crowd are so confident of the worth and beauty of this enterprise, why aren't any of them risking their lives? Obviously they themselves don't believe in it. (Of course it's ok for the Cheneys, they have "other priorities.") clint |
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12 Oct 04 - 07:04 AM (#1295028) Subject: RE: BS: OK, see if you know what to do... From: Chris Green I think, Clint, you've hit the nail on the head. People do not create wars, governments do and then con their populace into waging them. AA Milne (yes, the author of Winnie-the Pooh!) postulated a plan back in the 1930s that suggested amongst other things that all heads of state upon being sworn in, elected, or whatever should have to pledge that any declaration of war on their part would be followed by the said head of state's immediate execution. Unworkable, I know, but still an interesting thought, n'est-ce pas? Can't really see Saddam, Bush, Blair or Howard going for it! |