Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?

15 Oct 04 - 08:29 AM (#1297752)
Subject: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: chinatogalway

I just saw a part of a programme on websites for the blind. Now I found it amazing that 2and a half million blind in uk, 9 million in china etc, and was wondering if it was easy to convert an exsiting website for the blind use.

I already have a music based website, could I make it possible for the blind to use??? how difficult would it be??Thanks for any advive !

Kieron

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15 Oct 04 - 08:38 AM (#1297762)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe

My Fooles Troupe & personal sites were written to be easy for the blind from the beginning starting in 1996. I even got an award for it.

There were heaps of reference sites around telling what you need to do. Doubtless a search will find some of them today.

Clever 'Visual only' graphics heavy interfaces are right out! :-)

Quite easy if you follow a few basic principles as you write the site. May be a bit frustrating if you have to rewrite it all.

Robin

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15 Oct 04 - 08:40 AM (#1297764)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: Fibula Mattock

Kieron - don't know about everywhere else, but in the UK the third part of the Disability Discrimination Act has just come into play and most websites providing a service HAVE to be compliant, so there's pleanty of resources around to help with accessibility.

The main things are: make the HTML valid and check it with a validator such as http://validator.w3.org/, which (certainly in the case of XHTML 1.0) includes a check for alt tags for all images. Keep the contrast in colours strong, separate content from presentation by using style sheets, and try out an accessibility validator such as http://wave.webaim.org/.

Usually it's basically a lot of tidying up rather than a redesign. Good luck!

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15 Oct 04 - 08:55 AM (#1297778)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: artbrooks

I'd suggest you PM Mudcatter Teresa and ask her advise. She is totally blind and her internet skills seem to be excellent.

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15 Oct 04 - 09:07 AM (#1297791)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe

see this thread too.

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15 Oct 04 - 09:51 AM (#1297821)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: Peace

Get in touch with Teresa.

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15 Oct 04 - 10:25 AM (#1297850)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: John in Brisbane

I'm legally blind, but can't really add too much to the above, except that I use Opera as my browser of choice because it has easily accessible magnification rates up to 1000%. This dialogue box is a good example of bad design for the sight impaired. On any magnification greater than 100% the words that I type disappear beyond the right margin.

I don't know the techie stuff but some sites are superb in that as you magnify the text stays within the frame.

You'll get my vote if you achieve that at your site.

Regards, John

PS When I'm travelling I've virtually given up using public/paid internet cafes. The standard text enlargement on MSIE just isn't large enough for me. As an aside I was in Darwin mid-year for the Top Half Folk Festival. Every internet cafe and library I visite had black Compaq keyboards with dark lettering. I don't touch type so I couldn't use 'em.

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15 Oct 04 - 11:46 AM (#1297928)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: Susan of DT

I would imagine there are two issues here:
(1) Magnification and contrast for people with limited vision
(2) Sound giving the whole web site for the totally blind
The second seems like the greater challenge since web sites are rarely linear.

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15 Oct 04 - 08:36 PM (#1298287)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe

Also no graphic only links with no alt text, etc.

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15 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM (#1298298)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: Malcolm Douglas

As a rough rule of thumb, if a web page reads coherently in a text-only browser, it ought to make reasonable sense to a blind user with a browser that renders text to audio. There's a lot more to it, though; and I for one will checking out the links that Fibula provided earlier. It's something that we all need to know more about, and -to begin with, at least, and so far as I could tell- it was quite difficult to get reliable information, or access proper test routines without buying software that small voluntary organisations might have found beyond their means.

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15 Oct 04 - 09:38 PM (#1298324)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: GUEST

http://diveintoaccessibility.org/ is a good place to start.

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15 Oct 04 - 09:58 PM (#1298331)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: chinatogalway

I checked out the validation link that Fibula suggested, and got a reply to say my site had only 10 problems! I was very surprised, an pleased but I have no idea what the 10 problems actually mean or how to fix them. I am not a tech head, as you can guess.

my site is www.chinatogalway.com
maybe any blind/ visualy impared members could check it out. I am not promising that the site will be 'the perfect site' but I sure would be interested in giving it a shot !

Kieron

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15 Oct 04 - 10:08 PM (#1298337)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: Teresa

Hello all,

Just read through the suggestions, and they all sound great. I'm totally blind and about 99.9% of websites are readable to me. (At least the ones I've encountered. **Use alt-text on images, please please please** so that the text-to-speech doesn't indicate a link called imgsrc equals s45whdc53210452 (arrrrrgh!!!) or somesuch, and keep down the moving graphics and mouseover scripts, etc. and you basically have the right idea.

Also, contact blind friends or acquaintances (pm me if you like :) ) and let us have a check so we can make sure it's all nice and blind-friendly. :)

T

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16 Oct 04 - 11:20 AM (#1298425)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe

chinatogalway

"Use alt-text on images" - the big image on the front page is a good example...

There is also good reasons why paper was generally whitish and ink was generally blackish...

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17 Oct 04 - 07:05 AM (#1298932)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: John in Brisbane

Hi chinatogalway, my personal assessment as a partially sighted person:

- As Robin alluded to, I have real trouble with white reversed out on a black background. I can understand why this is the case in the print industry, whre multiple printing of different coloured inks are superimposed to create the background. Any slight variations in registration cause the outside of the text character to become blurry. I don't know what happens on a PC monitor, it takes me two or three times as long to read reversed out text. (My OT has demonstrated imaging gear to me that deliberately creates a reversed out image for some 'low vision' people. This is a digital enhancement of analogue CCTV output for reading books and newspapers - expensive gear I might add. There are some 'blind' people for whom this is an advantage. This 'negative' approach to text display MAY be available as one of Microsofts Accessibilty Options, but for obvious reasons I've never explored it.

- The text which appeared on my screen was an ornate (and attractive) Celtic style font. I found it very hard to read.

- I might have the jargon wrong, but in my monitor's default settings (in Windows) I choose the minimum size and (I guess) the maximum pixels per text character, hence I could only read about 60% of your left justified text at 1:1 magnification using Opera.

There are clearly many important positive qualities about your site, but my first dot point would be enough for me to continue browsing elsewhere. If I'm really interested in a page I'm often forced to wade through the HTML source code.

Thanks for the chance to comment.

Regards, John

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17 Oct 04 - 10:42 AM (#1298993)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: John in Brisbane

An excellent example for a blind friendly text site is the ABC Notation Homepage http://www.gre.ac.uk/~c.walshaw/abc/ Here.

I can move to any level of magnification and the descriptive text always stays within the boundaries of my screen.

Regards, John

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17 Oct 04 - 10:48 AM (#1299004)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: fiddler

Ref the Special eduactional needs and Disabilities Act.

Senda

It is similar in UK and the States - and has legal implications if you have a site that a person needs to access and can't but is also a low level civil offence for some reason.

Many Blind and dyslexic folk use screen readers - such as Jaws, so when you have got your site running I think there are sites that will evaluate it it for you - Bobby springs to mind - but they never give a 100% clear bill of health so don't beat yourself in to a pulp when it tells you no way hosay!

Just keep taking the tablets

Andy

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17 Oct 04 - 07:58 PM (#1299309)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe

I just let the default fonts work - unless I am aimimg purely for 'eye candy' at the expense of legibility. I have set my PC desktop default font to Arial - or Arial Narrow - I can read it at 8pt on my screen before it starts to break up at 1024x768.

My ex-employer chose Arial as a standard font as it was detected as being very easy to read.

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17 Oct 04 - 08:21 PM (#1299324)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe

BTW, Australia has now introduced similar guidlelines/offences too.

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18 Oct 04 - 09:59 AM (#1299710)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: Sandra in Sydney

I use Arial for everything as I find it easy to read (Arial 12 or 14 for songs!!) Last year I returned to my old job in the Library & started re-labelling the pamphlet boxes, using Arial 15 & 18, replacing all the 9 font labels I made in 1993!! How can anyone read such tiny typing? My eye specialist says my glasses don't need changing but ...

I sent this thread to a committee as we were discussing tarting up our website last week. Members were talking about making a site that catches the eye & keeps attention in this world of 10 second attention spans & all the bells & whistles a modern site needs.

The webmaster replied that he would run any suggested changes past his blind colleague who is an expert on adaptive technologes.

Thanks everyone, it's a very interesting thread

sandra

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18 Oct 04 - 04:29 PM (#1299980)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: open mike

welll, i wonder if there will be rating issues here:
"we were discussing tarting up our website"
could be interesting....and risque'!!

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18 Oct 04 - 07:56 PM (#1300167)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe

Eh, What?

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19 Oct 04 - 09:41 AM (#1300625)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: Sandra in Sydney

if "interesting & risque" is what it takes to bring young folks into the folk world, our ideas men & women will certainly create something eyecatching. Dunno what the old folkies will think of it, or the idea that the monthly magazine will be on-line in a few years.

sandra

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20 Oct 04 - 05:51 PM (#1302194)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: treewind

Several people here have strongly emphasised the need for Alt tags on images. Can someone give me some insight into Alt tag text for the benefit of the blind? I know how to do them, but what should they say and it is sometimes OK to put in an empty Alt tag text.

It's obvious when the graphic is a picture of somebody or something, but what about bits of navigation furniture like arrows (which the blind won't use), logos, decorative bits and pieces - should they all be fully described, just so that voice output will tell the user they can effectively be ignored - but then if you're blind surely you can ignore all of them anyway...

I'm not challenging the idea, just want guidance on what's useful to put in the tag, because it obviously is, for some reason.

Anahata

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20 Oct 04 - 08:28 PM (#1302338)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe

"navigation furniture like arrows (which the blind won't use)"

but they will use the link the picture sits on if they can read something sensible that explains what the link is for (that is what the ALT= attribute was intended for). They CAN'T (of curse) use 'image maps'.

Hmmm, I'll leave that typo for you Teresa... :-)

"what should they say and it is sometimes OK to put in an empty Alt tag text."

Perhaps you would like to look at my site (see mudcat profile) - the 'personal' pages are intended that way, the 'Fooles' pages DO have a little eye candy, so they tend to be on the edge of what may occassionally get lost on those not seeing images, but I have tried to put useful ALT attributes where they are useful. Yes, you can use empty ones occassionally, some I put a * in if it is just a 'clever' link, part of the humour of the pages' style.

Robin

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20 Oct 04 - 09:42 PM (#1302395)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: Teresa

If there is a linked image, it is vitally important for as many as possible to have access to it. Therefore, a graphical link that has the label: "imgsrc equals 435562666" will not convey information. However, if it says "blog" then blind people will know what it does.

teresa

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21 Oct 04 - 04:20 AM (#1302605)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: treewind

Point fully taken when the image is a link. Thanks for stating the obvious!

I guess that an image that's used for purely decorative purposes should be labelled "horizontal divider" or similar so that you don't have to spend a lot of time figuring out whether it's important or not.

In the absence of Alt text, what does a blind person get? With a text to speech device, if it's a link do you get the address it links to? If so, that seem to make a case for descriptive file names too (a habit I prefer anyway, if only to save my own confusion)

Anahata

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21 Oct 04 - 06:58 AM (#1302706)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: fiddler

No Wrong, Anahata - sorry lots of visually impaired folk use screen readers the screen reader will tell them that it is an image and what the image is of.

all links are also best put out in full as the readers read these two so not just 'click here' that is a big No No No!

Andy

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21 Oct 04 - 07:30 AM (#1302726)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: treewind

Sorry fiddler, don't undertand.
No Wrong, Anahata
Was that a typo for not wrong, or do you mean I was wrong? If so, which bit?

sorry lots of visually impaired folk use screen readers
I know that. What I was asking is what the screen reader tells them.

the screen reader will tell them that it is an image
I would expect that - by spotting the <IMG> tag.

and what the image is of.
This is one bit really don't get. Do you mean the filename, or what the ALT attribute says, if present? I guess it doesn't attempt an analysis of the image content! My understading is precisely that the screen reader CAN'T tell them what the "image is of", and that's why we should use ALT attributes...

all links are also best put out in full
This is very ambiguous, and several possible interpretations add nothing to helping the visually impaired.

not just 'click here'
I never do that. I like text links to be either descriptive text or sometimes (if I think the page is likely to be printed) the actual URL or email address.

Anahata

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21 Oct 04 - 12:11 PM (#1302998)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: Teresa

"No Wrong, Anahata - sorry lots of visually impaired folk use screen readers the screen reader will tell them that it is an image and what the image is of."

Only if that image has alt text.

Images without links are neat to have descriptions of, but not necessary. In fact, my screen reader has a ficility to read the *linked* images, but turn identification of other decorative graphics off. That way I don't get lines and lines of something like "clear image dot dot gif" etc. ... which is downright screamingly frustrating! :)

T

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21 Oct 04 - 10:21 PM (#1303456)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe

Teresa, you must have hated those sites where the clever sods used thousands of graphical images to layout out paragraphs, etc... to force HTML to be used as a layout language :-)

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22 Oct 04 - 05:57 AM (#1303688)
Subject: RE: Tech: website for the blind, easy or not?
From: treewind

The worst is where the text itself is rendered as a graphic.
Talk about shooting yourself ifn the foot - I wonder if the designers of sites like that ever wonder why they don't get listed in search engines?

So... if I put ALT="", does that mean that a typical screen reader will ignore the image totally?

Anahata

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