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24 Oct 04 - 04:50 PM (#1305879) Subject: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: GUEST This NY Times article discusses the prospects for the Democrats should Kerry lose. You must be a NY Times subscriber to read the article, so here is an excerpt: "As far as most Democrats are concerned, their side won the White House in 2000. And as far as most Democrats are concerned, given the state of the economy and the war in Iraq, they should win it again a week from Tuesday. So it seems fair to say that should Senator John Kerry lose to President Bush - which many Democrats insist is highly unlikely - the Democratic Party would be in for another bout of recrimination, self-examination and transformation." And one more: "Most immediately, a large reason that Mr. Kerry captured his party's nomination is that Democratic primary voters concluded he could hold his own on national security. He is, after all, a Vietnam veteran who voted for the war on Iraq. In this context, a Kerry loss would crystallize an excruciating question for the Democratic Party: Can it ever compete with the Republican Party on a threshold issue that seems likely to be central to American presidential elections for a long time to come? "If we lose, we are going to have to find an answer to the question of how are we going to keep this country secure,'' said Al From, the head of the Democratic Leadership Council, a group of moderate Democrats who helped elect Bill Clinton president at a time when no one thought or talked about a domestic terrorist attack." |
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24 Oct 04 - 04:54 PM (#1305883) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Jack the Sailor If democracy in the USA survives four more years of Bush, the democrats will be in a much stronger position than they are now. |
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24 Oct 04 - 05:13 PM (#1305901) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: GUEST Jack, since you immediately posted to this and the What if Bush Loses thread, I'm guessing you haven't actually read either of these NY Times articles. Am I correct about that? This thread, along with the other, is an effort to talk about what will happen AFTER a week from Tuesday. The end is near dude, and maybe it is time you wrapped your head around the future possibilities, as well as the reality that is changing in nine more days. Please Jack, would you refrain from interfering with the discussion here of the NY Times article(s)? |
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24 Oct 04 - 05:15 PM (#1305905) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Nerd GUEST, if you didn't want anyone to respond who hadn't read the articles, why include an excerpt for people who can't read them? |
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24 Oct 04 - 05:16 PM (#1305906) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Jack the Sailor You pompous tit. I actually did read what you posted. What I said here was based on that. LOL You're an idiot! |
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24 Oct 04 - 05:25 PM (#1305919) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: kendall We survived a civil war, a great depression and Ronald Reagan. All we can do is hope. I am furious that my party nominated Kerry. |
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24 Oct 04 - 05:26 PM (#1305921) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: GUEST Nerd, I posted excerpts to give people an idea of what the articles are about, in order to entice them to read the articles and then discuss the content of the articles. That is how this sort of thing usually works, even though I know many people who will post to the thread won't read the article, and will instead just post their own drivel, like Jack has done. I'm not interested in discussing Jack's drivel. I'm interested in discussing the articles, and what might come to pass after the election is over, because I'm damn sick and tired of discussing the Kerry vs Bush shit. I can't wait for the election to be over. My thinking is moving beyond the election to what awaits us on November 3rd. |
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24 Oct 04 - 05:29 PM (#1305924) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Old Guy Then we will be in for an even nastire campaign in 08, assuming it can get nastier. I am worried about anarchy. Old Guy |
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24 Oct 04 - 06:01 PM (#1305961) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: GUEST I really don't care what becomes of the Democratic party, I care what happens to progressive socialist movements in the wake of the election. As far as I'm concerned, the Democratic party is a long lost cause, and so are it's presidential candidates--I'm definitely with Kendall there. |
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24 Oct 04 - 06:06 PM (#1305968) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: GUEST I also fearlessly predict (easy to do when we are four years out) that if Kerry loses, Hilary Clinton will be a near shoe-in for the Dems in 2008. |
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24 Oct 04 - 10:14 PM (#1306205) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Peace I have to agree with the post by GUEST of 24 Oct 04 - 06:01 PM. America is in the process of getting lost. I don't think Nader would be much of an improvement, either. However, Hillary would possibly be a breath of air were she to run. However, that's to be seen. As for the anarchy Old Guy worries about: maybe it's time. |
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24 Oct 04 - 10:50 PM (#1306244) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Once Famous Go for it, Hillary. I'll vote for you. |
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24 Oct 04 - 10:54 PM (#1306249) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: GUEST Well, who the hell else would the Dems have to run that hadn't already lost in 2008? Hilary. Barak will be deemed MUCH too, weeelll...metroethnic, methinks. Which is just another way of saying there is no way IN HELL the Democrats would nominate a person of color. A woman? Sure, so long as she is more conservative than most the men. But a NEGRO? I don't think so. |
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24 Oct 04 - 10:57 PM (#1306252) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Stilly River Sage If Democrats are smart, they'll all join the Republican party (a la Garrison Keillor and his monologues on A Prairie Home Companion) and dilute the thing to a point where some social reform can take place and moderate candidates can be chosen. Plug your noses, folks, and walk through those conservative doors. It's the only way. SRS |
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24 Oct 04 - 11:05 PM (#1306263) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Janie I, unfortunately, don't think who wins the presidential election will really lead to significant change domestically or in terms of our foreign policy. Who controls the House and Senate will probably have more effect. Except perhaps where the loss of civil liberties are concerned, and in that case it depends on if the Party of the President and the controlling Party in Congress are the same. We are a very divided country right now, much more so than during the Vietnam era, and not much happens in a divided country that is constructive. If the Democrats lose this presidential election, I think the party itself will go through some major turmoil. While it is unlikely that a strongly leftist faction would ultimately emerge the leader of the pack, it will be interesting to see if they can become enough of a force to be reckoned with among voting Democrats to exert the influence that the far right has on the Replubicans. I believe, but do not know, that right-wing Republicans can pull a lot more votes than can left-wing Democrats, and therefore more readily influence policy. Our country is, IMHO, undergoing a sea change. I do not have a clue what we will be on the other side. But I am scared and skeptical. We are even beginning to toy with the idea of immigrating. Probably I am just tired. But it seems I have been fighting and working my whole adult life to see our government reflect the values and responsibilites, at home and abroad, that we espouse. But, we are further from it than we ever have been. Another country would most likely be no different. Sorry for the thread creep. Janie |
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24 Oct 04 - 11:05 PM (#1306264) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Jack the Sailor Good idea SRS, then the Religous nuts would have to start their own party. |
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24 Oct 04 - 11:29 PM (#1306272) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Amos I, too, will be glad when the awful friction of this election is over. I don't think we've ever seen so close, or so heated, a match. If America is getting lost, it is partly because ithas been mis-driven by an adolescent who wouldn't ask for directions. A |
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25 Oct 04 - 02:07 AM (#1306348) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: dianavan If Kerry loses maybe Canada and Cuba will have to help you out. In fact, if Kerry loses; Canada and Cuba should invade to help restore democracy. d |
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25 Oct 04 - 10:59 AM (#1306616) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Amos If Kerry loses, Canada's population will have a sudden upsurge. A |
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25 Oct 04 - 04:28 PM (#1306890) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: M.Ted I am thinking that Australia looks like a good place to live--friendly folks with a good sense of humor, plenty of space, lots of beach front-- And yes, I read the Times article, GUEST, before you posted from it, but after they left in in my driveway-- |
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25 Oct 04 - 04:33 PM (#1306896) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Mrrzy I now several people who say they will move to FRANCE, not to Canada... |
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25 Oct 04 - 07:52 PM (#1307049) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: GUEST,Boab My own view of Kerry is "just one more flag-waver". But if he were to lose this election it would mean the retention of Rumsfeld, Cheyney, Wolfowitz and all the rest of the cruel pack which Number One Crapmerchant has gathered around him. All the world waits with bated breath. |
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25 Oct 04 - 08:17 PM (#1307067) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: McGrath of Harlow "If Democrats are smart, they'll all join the Republican party (a la Garrison Keillor and his monologues on A Prairie Home Companion) and dilute the thing to a point where some social reform can take place and moderate candidates can be chosen. Plug your noses, folks, and walk through those conservative doors. It's the only way." Well, there is Blair's version of that - steal the other side's clothes, so that you come across as a rather less unsavoury version of your opponents; meanwhile your own people have nowhere to go, because of the way the system works against third parties (even more so in the States than in the UK). It's already happened of course, to some extent, but I anticipate that, if Kerry loses, by the time the Democrats get back in, they will be signifcantly further to the right then they are even today. |
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25 Oct 04 - 08:32 PM (#1307083) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Bobert Kerry cannot win without 52%. Anything closer and the Bush0corrks will steal it. 52% in this election cycle is not probable. Therefore, its four more years of the Repub fraternity... Which, should democracy survive, which is looking doubtfull since we don't have much of it now, and thre Democartic Party turn away from merely staking out the somewhat progressive side of the right wing, then America will be better off. It would be better for the Democartic Party to get 20% of the vote and actaully stand for something than get 48% immitating the Repubs... Bobert |
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25 Oct 04 - 08:52 PM (#1307107) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Amos No, Bobert, you are wrong. They are packing the streets in Philadelphia today, calling Kerry "Mister President" and calling Bush a bum. There are movements all across the country of people coming together to make a stand against Bush's arrogance and mismanagement. I think you are going to get your numbers, and I think you'll be happily surprised at the result. John Kerry is a better man than you have given him credit for. Unlike his opponent, he deserves to be President. A |
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25 Oct 04 - 08:59 PM (#1307112) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: GUEST Hold on, hold on there Amos. Not so fast. Let's just wait and see on November 3rd, shall we? You are already lying to yourself and everyone else about Kerry's positions on war and militarism, so of course it is no leap of faith for you to believe he will, believe he will, believe he will, believe he will be elected. But maybe not, eh? Kerry is STILL lagging in all the polls today, despite the fact the news couldn't be any worse for Bush. |
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25 Oct 04 - 09:06 PM (#1307118) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Bobert Interesting that you would choose Philly, Amos, since I was in Philly just this morning picking up a new (to me) Chevy Syburban I bought off ebay... I din't see anyone in the streets.. Might of fact I was rather disallusioned today riding home from Philly, thru Lancaster, York, Gettysburg, etc. and seeing way more Bush signs than I thought I would see. Yeah, the folks inside Philly, though not in the streets by my observations (maybe I picked the wrong streets) may vote for Kerry but the folks outside are heavily Bush. Heavily! In Lancaster, I say one Kerry yard sign and over 100 Bush ones... Purdy danged sobering... Sorry to burst yer bubble, Amos, but if Kerry does carry Penn, it will be by the slimmest of matgins after the Diebold factor. Bobert |
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25 Oct 04 - 09:08 PM (#1307119) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Amos "PHILADELPHIA Elsewhere in Pennsylvania, he's known as "Mr. President." At a rally today in the battleground state's largest city, George W. Bush was derided loudly as a "bum." Philadelphia showed little love for Bush when thousands turned out to cheer Democrat John Kerry and former President Bill Clinton going into the final week of the presidential campaign. The head of the city's powerful labor union Building Trades Council was one of those warming up the shoulder-to-shoulder noontime crowd. Pat Gillespie said, "I think we're in dire straits here with four more years of that bum." This from Google News collection attributed to WNEP. Fromt he Associated Press. http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=2477869 A |
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25 Oct 04 - 09:09 PM (#1307120) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Amos Oh, and Guest: I have not lied to anyone. Go screw yourself. I have better things to do than listen to your slurs and bullshit. A |
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25 Oct 04 - 09:19 PM (#1307125) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Bobert Okay, Amos, since you are my pal, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Heck, I know wou all got the good drugs in Calibonga... I mighta missed some news thingie since I dn't get home unti 'bout 45 minutes ago and missed the news... But I'm stickin' to my story that the closest thing I say to folks in the street is one poor guy who had obviously been to a one man wine tasting in the woods and was having trouble navigating the perdestrian crosswalk and I was thinking I was fonna have to get out and help him croos the street but he finally made it, thought well off the pederstrain crosswalk boundaries... Maybe he's heard that Bush was comin' to Philly? Is any of this on the level? Did it make national news? If so, maybe I'll stay up and watch the late news... Bobert |
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25 Oct 04 - 09:25 PM (#1307130) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: GUEST,Clint Keller "If Democrats are smart, they'll all join the Republican party (a la Garrison Keillor and his monologues on A Prairie Home Companion) and dilute the thing to a point where some social reform can take place and moderate candidates can be chosen." They've been doing that here in Idaho, in Boundary County and doubtless others. Interesting. |
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25 Oct 04 - 09:31 PM (#1307137) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Bobert Good point, Clint... I've often wonderded if true Cristains would infiltrate the evangelical right winged churches... Could be very ineresting... Trojan horse thinkin'... Bobert |
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26 Oct 04 - 08:44 AM (#1307485) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: McGrath of Harlow "Let's just wait and see on November 3rd, shall we?" You really think it will be over by then? |
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26 Oct 04 - 09:35 AM (#1307529) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: GUEST Bobert, don't worry. The story that Amos is referring to was the Kerry spinning for the day in Philly. It got lots of attention, but not because he is going to win PA. It got lots of attention because he showed up with Clinton, in hopes that Clinton's popularity will rub off on him. NO news value whatsoever. Just spin of the day stuff. I was in that very part of PA this summer that you drove through. It is, sadly, now Republican territory. Though it was once strong Democratic country, that area is now one of the pockets of the Rust Belt, which never recovered from the losses when all the factories and foundries closed. Other parts of the area are rural ag, which seems to have gone over to the Repubs for good in a lot of places. They've also started to refer to Arlen Specter as a Republican moderate, and nothing is more scarey than that. |
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26 Oct 04 - 10:40 AM (#1307600) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: GUEST Yes McGrath, I truly believe we will have a winner with solid, legally verifiable results, on Wednesday, November 3rd, regardless of the voting problems with Diebold, voter intimidation, and the organized voter suppression campaigns by both parties. We will have those results, because the parties have set up the system to work that way to "prove" legitimacy of elections to allow for a peaceful transition of power. There are rumblings of very menacing threats coming from the Anybody But Bush camp of hysterical liberals, as to them "starting a civil war" or "spilling into the streets" or "leaving the country" if Bush wins. I don't believe any of it. A lunatic fringe exists on the edges of both political parties. The Republican fringe went into the same hysteria mode over Clinton in the 1996 election. It is par for the course in US national elections in this media echo chamber era. Thankfully, local elections rarely reach this level of hysteria mongering, except in the rare cases like Wellstone's death, when control of the Senate was at stake. The control of the Senate is at stake this year as well, but thanks to the media echo chamber effect, no one is paying any attention to the Senate races. It is all presidential horse race, all the time, brought to you by the TV & radio media moguls and the advertisers that make them filthy rich. Controversy sells. There is a very mundane, pragmatic reason why this election has been sold to the American people and world by the US media moguls as "the most important election of your lifetime". Market share and advertising dollars. Consumers have bought into the hysteria mongering, and both ratings and advertising revenues are UP for the media moguls! Controversy sells, even when there isn't one. And this year, like every other election year for 30 years, it is being brought to you by two brands: Democrat and Republican. They have the logos. They have brand loyalties. They have the stage shows to match the stage shows of the news outlets. It's all performance, all the time. In your face, smackdown politics AND YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON THIS ELECTION!!! None of them give a shit if you vote. They just want you to BUY. |
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26 Oct 04 - 01:26 PM (#1307791) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: DougR Hmmmm, Amos, a mass exodus of lefties from the United States to Canada? What an intriguing idea! Will you likely settle around Toronto or Quebec? :>) DougR |
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26 Oct 04 - 04:38 PM (#1307947) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Amos Hmmmm...tempting, DOugR. But it would leave your rapacious dunderheads wide open to gut the constitution and undermine every advance the country has made since 1776. So, not to disappoint oyu or anything, I am calling the exodus off. Instead, a mass of lefties will be out registering voters and promtoing John Kerry for President. Let me know if you want to sell your house cheap. I like Arizona. A |
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26 Oct 04 - 05:46 PM (#1307998) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Jack the Sailor If y'all do move to Canada and Mexico, don't forget to register to vote in a swing state on the way out. |
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26 Oct 04 - 05:47 PM (#1308000) Subject: RE: BS: Democrats: What if Kerry Loses? From: Amos HAhaha!! |