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27 Oct 04 - 05:16 PM (#1308993) Subject: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: GUEST,amergin this is from BBC: Scientists have discovered a new and tiny species of human that lived in Indonesia at the same time our own ancestors were colonising the world. The new species - dubbed "the Hobbit" due to its small size - lived on Flores island until at least 12,000 years ago. Frodo's Grave |
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27 Oct 04 - 06:33 PM (#1309040) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: hesperis Cool! Amazing how often fantasy has a basis in ancient fact, eh? |
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27 Oct 04 - 06:41 PM (#1309048) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: freda underhill as a relative of frodo's, i'm thrilled and fascinated. and elephants the size of ponies - how wonderful! |
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27 Oct 04 - 06:42 PM (#1309049) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Janie How very interesting. Thanks for posting this amergin. Janie |
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27 Oct 04 - 07:32 PM (#1309082) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Blissfully Ignorant I think i'm a direct descendant. I keep the stepladder sellers of the world in business. |
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27 Oct 04 - 07:37 PM (#1309087) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Stilly River Sage The story was quite interesting. They said that inhabitants of islands where there aren't many predators have been known to grow smaller over time. They said the "Hobbit" skeleton was about 18,000 years old, but since then, newer bones, as recent as 12,000 have turned up. And that native oral history includes accounts of "small naked people who lived in caves on the island." Next year they'll start checking out those caves. Scroll down the page at NPR's All Things Considered to Ancient, Tiny Humans Shed Light on Evolution SRS |
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27 Oct 04 - 07:46 PM (#1309096) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: frogprince Fun take on it, Amergin, but Repaire linked to the site a little earlier. Now part of me is fantasizing, thinking wouldn't it be cool if they found some of them running around alive. Trouble is, would we ever resist putting them thru so much they wouldn't be prepared to deal with; the record says we probably wouldn't. |
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27 Oct 04 - 07:52 PM (#1309101) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Stilly River Sage Knowing the record of the U.S., they'd kill them to disect them to see how they tick. (The U.S. Forest Service once cut down what they thought was the world's oldest Bristlecone Pine, in Nevada, so they could count the rings. . . they found an older one later, and were told to keep their grubby mits off of it!) SRS |
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27 Oct 04 - 08:16 PM (#1309123) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Liz the Squeak I always wondered how come my auntie was a clear foot shorter than I am... and I'm not exactly overly tall myself! Did they have big feet? LTS |
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27 Oct 04 - 08:31 PM (#1309142) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: frogprince Big FURRY feet? Oh, durn it, you couldn't tell that now, could you... |
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27 Oct 04 - 11:26 PM (#1309237) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: GUEST,Art Thieme Yes, and there were golf balls the size of hail too. |
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27 Oct 04 - 11:36 PM (#1309242) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Clinton Hammond I have a LOT of trouble accepting Flores island as Valinor |
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27 Oct 04 - 11:45 PM (#1309243) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Mooh If this is a joke, it's over my head. Mooh. |
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28 Oct 04 - 12:43 AM (#1309290) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Liz the Squeak Why not? They seem to be able to reconstruct most scenarios these days... I'm sure there must be some archeological evidence as to their appearance and customs. Maybe these caves (hobbit holes) will have some more evidence? LTS |
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28 Oct 04 - 12:51 AM (#1309298) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Metchosin Well this Valinor has monsters. Flores Island is also the home of Komodo dragons. I wonder if komodos were on the island 12,000 years ago. |
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28 Oct 04 - 01:25 AM (#1309320) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Metchosin whoops, missed the BBC link, duh. |
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28 Oct 04 - 08:11 AM (#1309454) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: MBSLynne My family have said for a long time that we have hobbit blood.....we're mostly pretty small and my brother has furry feet!! Love Lynne |
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28 Oct 04 - 08:12 AM (#1309455) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Mr Happy Perhaps some substantiation of much folklore i.e. elves,gnomes, fairies, dwarves, goblins etc |
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28 Oct 04 - 08:18 AM (#1309461) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: McGrath of Harlow I can't see how at this point they can say "this is a different species" - they wouldn't have been all that much shorter than Baka (pygmies), and no one would suggest they aren't the same species as us. Just a smaller variety. |
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28 Oct 04 - 08:20 AM (#1309465) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: McGrath of Harlow I can't see how at this point they can say "this is a different species" - they wouldn't have been all that much shorter than Baka (pygmies), and no one would suggest they aren't the same species as us. Just a smaller variety. |
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28 Oct 04 - 08:36 AM (#1309478) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Pied Piper They are morphologically more similar to Homo erectus than modern human beings, so it seems they are another branch off the first hominid to leave Africa, as are the Neanderthals. PP |
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28 Oct 04 - 12:34 PM (#1309663) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Metchosin I'm inclined to agree with McGrath, species differentiation is usually based upon, whether or not, the crosses of supposedly separate life forms can produce viable offspring which in turn are able to reproduce. Morphological differences in higher species can vary tremendously, as in dogs for example. Even the wolf and the dog have now been relegated to the same species, as they do produce viable offspring unlike donkeys and horses. I would think that relegating "Hobit man" to a separate species should based upon the DNA testing that was mentioned in the BBC article. That said, we'll probably never know if Frodo had sex with a human and went on to have grandchildren. |
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28 Oct 04 - 02:46 PM (#1309777) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: frogprince "substantiation of much folklore i.e. elves,gnomes, fairies, dwarves, goblins etc" Certainly, Mr.Happy: Sometimes life is more fun if you believe in the little buggers. |
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28 Oct 04 - 04:48 PM (#1309886) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: McGrath of Harlow It'd be much less crowded if we were all that size. Evolution took a wrong turn to come up with us. |
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28 Oct 04 - 07:54 PM (#1310053) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Mr Happy Is size important? |
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28 Oct 04 - 08:15 PM (#1310066) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: McGrath of Harlow When some big bloke is standing in front of you, yes. |
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28 Oct 04 - 08:22 PM (#1310070) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Mr Happy whatever turns u on! |
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28 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM (#1310086) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Naemanson I think the difference between the pygmies and the Flores Island "Hobbits" is more than you might think. The "Hobbits" split off from the family tree back when Homo Erectus was swinging down from the trees. The pygmies are short Homo Sapiens. |
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29 Oct 04 - 04:52 AM (#1310323) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: John MacKenzie I misread this thread title as Freda's skeleton found. I suppose that remark will mean a visit from Nurse Ratched. I see the NYT today has christened them Homo Tom Thumbus, which tickled my fancy somewhat. Giok ;~) |
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29 Oct 04 - 06:04 AM (#1310359) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Liz the Squeak Ah, bless..... Very male orientated though.. why not Thumbelinus? If it is Frodo's skeleton, does that make Flores Island the 'Grey Havens'? LTS |
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29 Oct 04 - 06:48 AM (#1310391) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Metchosin Naemanson, sometimes species differentiation based upon morphology is a contentious issue, even among experts. As noted, up until a few years ago, the wolf and the dog were each classed as a separate species even by the "experts", despite the fact that they had living entities upon which to base their opinions and studies. Regarding homonids, a documentary I watched recently still had diffent "schools of thought" arguing over what should be placed where. Opionions were based upon age of the specimens and cranial structures and seemed to be predicated upon which group of scholars currently holds the most influence that month. Problems have arisen recently, because some work on specimens from Java, seems to have determined, that which is currently referred to as Homo erectus was a contemporary of Homo sapien in that region up until as recently as 27,000 years ago. It is my belief that DNA testing will be the only way to give a little more clarity to the issue of Hobbit man. IMO, morphology may be correct in a lot of circumstances, however the absolute indicator of a separate species is not necessarily bone structure, but the inability to interbreed successfully. |
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29 Oct 04 - 04:10 PM (#1310864) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Uncle_DaveO Some talk here about the meaning of "species". I biologist I used to know told me that "A species is what experts decide to CALL a species." Dave Oesterreich |
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29 Oct 04 - 04:16 PM (#1310874) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: MMario yup - that sounds about right unc. and the breeding rule fails more and more often as they discover more and more natural hybrids not all of which breed sterile offspring.- I believe natural hybrids have been found between cattle species, equines, felines, canines and many many bird species. and they can't always decide whether some animals are goats or sheep - I don't remember ever hearing about natural hybrids of goats with sheep or between species of the same - but bet they have occurred. |
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29 Oct 04 - 10:00 PM (#1311113) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: Stilly River Sage But will they ever cross apples and oranges? :) |
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29 Oct 04 - 10:32 PM (#1311139) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: frogprince What do you get if you cross an interstate highway bridge with an elephant? a ticket for blocking traffic... |
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30 Oct 04 - 12:20 AM (#1311196) Subject: RE: BS: Frodo's Skeleton Unearthed! From: GUEST,Clint Keller Diffrent species or not, these are a different *kind* of people than any we know, and I'm glad to hear of them. The Kootenai indians tell about the Little People who were living in these parts when the Kootenais got here. They had large round eyes and round heads and a curious kind of hair that grew all over them, including their faces. If I remember rightly. Some say they are still around, back in the mountains. I hope they're there, and I hope nobody ever finds them. Same goes for the sasquatch… clint |