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11 Nov 04 - 01:31 AM (#1323158) Subject: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: GUEST,bewildered Hi there, I know that Mac or mhic is the male patronymic mean "son of" as in Fionn mhic Cumhaill. What is the female equivalent? |
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11 Nov 04 - 02:33 AM (#1323185) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: MBSLynne Nic. And surely it would be a matronymic? |
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11 Nov 04 - 02:56 AM (#1323195) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: Peace Many Scottish surnames begin with the Gaelic word Mac, son, e. g. MacInnes, MacAllister. In Gaelic, the form changes when referring to a female, to Nic. Murdo MacRae is Murchadh MacRath, but Margaret MacRae is Mairead NicRath (compare Icelandic, Magnusson, Magnusdottir). The above is from www.english.uiowa.edu/faculty/ boos/images/questions/gaelic.htm or Google scottish gaelic ghaidhlig |
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11 Nov 04 - 11:15 AM (#1323341) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: GUEST,CrazyEddie In Irish it is Ni (with an accent over the i) pronounced like "knee" However, if the actual surname begins with a vowel sound it becones Nic (no accent on the i) pronounced like "nick" I'd guess that Scots & Manx Gaelic are similar, but I don't know |
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11 Nov 04 - 12:37 PM (#1323404) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy actually, names that begin with O (grandson of) for a male become Ni for a female descendant (daughter), Names that begin with Mac (son of) become Nic for female other variations have O becomming Ui for wives and Mac becomming Mhic for wives |
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11 Nov 04 - 01:17 PM (#1323449) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: MBSLynne So in Welsh, son of is Ap. What is daughter of? Love Lynne |
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11 Nov 04 - 05:32 PM (#1323839) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: GUEST so would a name like say Cailin Ruadh nic Cairbre be correct? Or would another term come into play? |
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14 Nov 04 - 09:35 PM (#1326900) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: GUEST 'Mac' in the Irish means 'son'(not 'son of'); 'Ó' means 'descendant', (not 'grandson of').Both words are nouns, therefore the following name(also a noun of course) is put into the genitive case which can change the spelling.To take the name quoted in the previous post the name'Cairbre' means 'of Cairbreach'(ie the genitive case of Cairbreach). A literal translation of Mac Cairbre would be 'son/of Cairbreach', not 'son of/Cairbre'. With family names if the male version is Mac Cáirbre (son of Cairbreach)then the female version is Nic Cháirbre (daughter of Cairbreach, note that in this instance the initial consonant 'C' is aspirated). If the male descendants of Cairbreach are Ó Cáirbre then the female descendants are Ní Cháirbre. |
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14 Nov 04 - 09:38 PM (#1326903) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: Peace "put into the genitive case" To satisfy my curiousity, have you ever studied Old English (sometimes erroneously referred to as Anglo-Saxon)? |
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14 Nov 04 - 09:43 PM (#1326907) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: Rapparee Yes. |
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15 Nov 04 - 07:42 AM (#1327204) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: GUEST Were there not places in the west of Ireland where women did not change their last names when they married. |
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15 Nov 04 - 08:35 PM (#1327979) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: GUEST Yes, the genitive or 'possessive' case, its a grammatical term. Without a rudimentary knowledge of grammar its very difficult to discuss the way a language works. In the Irish tradition a woman who married could be referred to as 'the woman of X', but might continue to use her own name as 'the daughter of Y'. This custom was not specific to any district of Ireland but as the new English language and customs superseded the old, spreading from the east toward the west, it is now seen as a Gaeltacht thing. |
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15 Nov 04 - 08:48 PM (#1327998) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: McGrath of Harlow If a woman adopts the name of the husband, this would always be with the Mac staying there - it would never be correct to replace it by Ni or Nic. That only belongs with the surname she was born with. |
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16 Nov 04 - 03:45 AM (#1328277) Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic question-Female Patronymic From: MBSLynne So I guess no one knows about the Welsh then? |