|
27 Nov 04 - 02:32 PM (#1340600) Subject: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: michaelr Excuse the copy-paste, but this is important. Decision due on Hill of Tara motorway Archaeologists say 'heart and soul of Ireland' is threatened Angelique Chrisafis, Ireland correspondent Thursday November 11, 2004 The Guardian (excerpt:) Full article here. It is Ireland's most sacred stretch of earth and one of the most important ancient landscapes in Europe. The Hill of Tara, with its passage tomb, earthworks and prehistorical burial mounds, is the mythical and ceremonial capital of Ireland, dating back 4,000 years. But now the landscape in county Meath, north-west of Dublin, is the subject of a campaign to save it from what one archaeologist has called the "worst case of state-sponsored vandalism ever inflicted on Irish cultural heritage". More than 50 senior academics have joined a protest against state plans to build a four-lane motorway through the valley and create a 10-hectare (25-acre) floodlit motorway exchange half a mile from the hill itself, slicing through what historians say is a hinterland of settlements and burial grounds. A pagan sanctuary which became the centre of Irish kingship, Tara served as an icon of nationalism and a symbolic battleground in the 1798 rebellion. In the late 19th century, when a group calling themselves the British-Israelites decided to excavate Tara, convinced that the ark of the covenant was buried there, outraged protesters included the poet WB Yeats. On a good day you can see half the counties of Ireland from the Hill of Tara. It is not its beauty that drives campaigners, but its archaeological and historical importance as the "heart and soul of Ireland" and one of the few prehistoric landscapes in Europe that is still intact. They are demanding soul-searching about Ireland's apparent lack of respect for its history now that it has become wealthy. The motorway plans have been passed by Ireland's planning board, despite the campaign by archaeologists and local groups, and are now sitting on the desk of the new environment minister, Dick Roche, who has the power to say yes or no. A decision is imminent. Dozens of academics from Ireland and abroad have written of their concerns in the Dublin-based Sunday Tribune. Dennis Harding of the archaeology department at Edinburgh University called the plans "an act of cultural vandalism as flagrant as ripping a knife through a Rembrandt painting". Archaeologists who have researched Tara say the nine-mile stretch of the new M3 motorway will mean the excavation of at least 28 sites and monuments in the road's corridor. But these, they say, will be "ultimately destroyed". They expect many more sites to be affected, with 48 archaeological zones within 500 metres of the road corridor and around one site every 300 metres along the road itself. What puzzles many international archaeologists is why Ireland has chosen this motorway route at a time when British authorities are spending hundreds of millions of pounds trying to undo past mistakes at Stonehenge. There they are grassing over one road and burying another in a tunnel to remove traffic from the surroundings of the ancient monument. Edel Bhreathnach, a medieval historian at University College Dublin, and editor of a forthcoming book on kingship and the landscape of Tara, said if the government approved the motorway it would be "the decision of a people who no longer understand their past". The road authorities have already dug test trenches along the corridor of the motorway, identifying 28 sites which they could excavate before building. Dr Bhreathnach said she was unhappy about hurried excavations. "You should only excavate as part of a research project," she said. Julitta Clancy of Meath Archaeological and Historical society said her family suffered horribly from the traffic congestion, with her student daughter having to take out a loan to live in Dublin as she could not commute to college. "We desperately need a traffic solution here in Meath, but we just want it rerouted away from a sensitive landscape," she said. YOU CAN SIGN A PETITION TO HELP SAVE TARA AT: http://www.petitiononline.com/Temair/ |
|
27 Nov 04 - 02:39 PM (#1340605) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: John MacKenzie The harpie that once through Tara's halls eh! I'll sign. Giok |
|
27 Nov 04 - 02:52 PM (#1340616) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: Blissfully Ignorant Those bas...never mind. Signed it.:0) |
|
27 Nov 04 - 03:31 PM (#1340636) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: diesel I've just signed it ! I'm worried about how few Irish signitures are onboard. I hope and pray there are other groups/forums with similar petitions. Tomorrow - I'm putting the Kids in the car and going up there. It's only an hours drive. I want it to be there for their kids - and theirs - and yours !!! Wood quay was a loss in my own city - I can't hold to see Tara being a loss to my country. Did you (especially if you live abroad) know Newgrange is nearby, what a site it is and reverred, yet still we learn more about it. Imagine what we may lose on Tara site. It only looks like a few rolling little hills, but our history has so long been based there, our school books, museums are full of it's importance. I shall be there - I only hope it will !! Diesel |
|
27 Nov 04 - 04:40 PM (#1340706) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: dianavan This is important, not only to the Irish but to anyone who enjoys Irish literature. There are very few monuments in Ireland that go that far back in space and time. To destroy Tara would be a crime. I think anyone who is familiar with Irish myth and song should be appalled. Get this message out and good luck to you. d |
|
27 Nov 04 - 05:01 PM (#1340724) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: Cluin While I agree it's important and I share your concern that Tara and surrounding area be protected, I have my doubts that any online petition has any more effect than a fart in a tornado. See here. Of more effect (though maybe still dubious) would be a handwritten letter to those in power. That's going to be my action. I just don't think online petitions are taken seriously. Sorry, michaelr. Thanks for the heads-up on the issue anyway. |
|
27 Nov 04 - 05:57 PM (#1340749) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: diesel Appreciate your comment Cluin, and thank you for action in a handwritten letter. Nothing to stop all doing that either. But if even some of the online petition helps, then I think it shall have been worth it all ! I'm still going there tomorrow - in my car - how Ironic ! Wanting to be there won't change it either - but at least my interest will be pep'd up. Small seeds once sown..... Diesel |
|
28 Nov 04 - 03:11 PM (#1341310) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: GUEST Ever since St Patrick lit the Pascal fire on Taras green slope the Irish people have suffered generations of abuse and subjugation at the hands of the clergy Priests feasted when the Irish peasentry lay dead in the ditches during the famine enough of these bleeding heart conservationists I say on with progress and development cover the whole thing in a good thick layer of concrete and fire a few of these conservation typey into the mix for a bit of bulk Guest John Cork City Ireland |
|
28 Nov 04 - 11:38 PM (#1341652) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: dianavan Guest - You are ignorant. d |
|
29 Nov 04 - 06:32 AM (#1341842) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: ard mhacha Diesel, Good luck to you and all of the others, but the note from the Cork Guest is an example of the gombenn men [carpetbaggers] that have taken over Ireland. |
|
29 Nov 04 - 09:27 AM (#1341987) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: Fibula Mattock Not intending this to provoke controversy, but John from Cork has got a point: sometimes progress is necessary. Hear me out. There's been a bit of discussion on some archaeology forums about this. Someone made a very good point that landscapes evolve and peoples' needs change. What we see in the landscape today is not some end result, some static ancient landscape. Time will move on, and we are contributing to future archaeology through our own impact on our surroundings. I'm not saying that building this motorway there is a good idea. Far from it - I'd love to see it re-routed somewhere else (although turn any stone in that neck of the woods and you'll find something archaeological). However, why the hell shouldn't people have decent roads? There are two things I find a little annoying about the article cited above. One is the quotation given that this motorway "the decision of a people who no longer understand their past". I find that rather patronising. This comes across like some form of cultural heritage blackmail: either you appreciate your archaeology, or you want a road. Yes, it's a controversial decision, and yes, there may be a lot more politics behind it than we may know or care to know, but if blame is laid with the excuse that people don't understand their past, then we as archaeologists are the ones in trouble - we should be making sure that people do have pertinent knowledge of cultural heritage. The second statement, "You should only excavate as part of a research project" is beautifully idyllic, but is never going to happen. Rescue excavations are the main form of excavations undertaken in Ireland, and it's damn necessary to do so. Given archaeology's destructive nature (once dug, forever gone), things are left in place wherever possible to await the possibility of future, new techniques. Rescue excavations have unearthed some fantastic new sites in the past few years which have caused us to re-examine some previously held concepts about Irish archaeology. I think it's a pity that anything has to be excavated - I wish there was a non-intrusive, non-destructive means of doing things - but I'm glad that some very good archaeologists are out there working on these threatened sites. |
|
29 Nov 04 - 04:28 PM (#1342392) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: iRiShBaBe done ! |
|
30 Nov 04 - 10:04 AM (#1343189) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: Cluin Address for the Department of the Taoiseach (Prime Minister of Ireland): Department of the Taoiseach, Government Buildings, Upper Merrion Street, Dublin 2 e-mail: webmaster@taoiseach.gov.ie Page with other addresses and e-mail addys of interest. |
|
30 Nov 04 - 04:03 PM (#1343573) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: GUEST I may appear ignorant to those who reflect on all things past but for too long we in Ireland have suffered an appaling road network when the National Road Development authority was set up if was hailed as the type of government agency required to drag our infrastructure into the 21st century but they recconed without the tree huggers and eco terrorists who cause millions of € in damage and delays not one of the contributers to this thread has mentioned cost.Cost which ultimatly has to be bourne by the tax payers of Ireland. Not one of the contributers to this thread has mentioned the fact that the road is not directly impacting on the hill of Tara itself Not one of the contributers to this thread has mentioned the fact that a new road might actually encourage the general population of Ireland to visit a site they know little and care less about sometimes reality hurts tell the people sleeping on trollies (gurnies)in Irish hospitals tonight that we should spend millions more redirecting this vital roadway and see how many "ignorant"answers you get. Prioritise |
|
30 Nov 04 - 05:47 PM (#1343687) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: Fibula Mattock Er, I mentioned it. That's the point I was trying to make - that preservation of some declared "cultural identity" shouldn't be at the expense of development where it is needed. |
|
30 Nov 04 - 05:57 PM (#1343697) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: GUEST Apoligies Fibula one of the dangers of skim reading |
|
30 Nov 04 - 07:45 PM (#1343794) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: GUEST Note to Diesel where ignorence is bliss tis folly to be wise, and I am sure Ard Mhacha meant GOMBEEN men in his appempted insult these were not in fact carpetbaggers but the paid thugs and agents of absentee landlords in either instance a forum is meant for discussion a place where different ideas and values should be explored and exchanged and not as these two erstwhile gentlemen would have it as a sounding board for their own personal agenda |
|
30 Nov 04 - 08:20 PM (#1343814) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: The Shambles The only way to know for sure that a petition is not going to make any difference - is for those who support its aims - not to sign it. It is a bit like the lottery - you only know for sure that you will not win - if you don't buy a ticket. |
|
30 Nov 04 - 10:52 PM (#1343935) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: GUEST,Brendy And I'm sure our GUEST meant ATTEMPTED, in his/her punctuationless garble. Ní bhfuil Teamhair ina feár go fóill B. |
|
30 Nov 04 - 11:07 PM (#1343946) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: GUEST,Brendy The Fertile Rock B. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 12:59 AM (#1344019) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: thehiker I think that a true reflection of Irelands cultural heritage is to be found in the fact that there has been uproar regarding the closure of Bewley's Café on Dublin's Grafton street.The vast majority of Ireland's population could not tell you if asked, where Tara is situated,not to mind have the first clue as to it's historical significance.It is a pity that ordinary Irish people don't have a greater interest in archeological heritage but I suppose one hole in the ground looks very much like another.But when you have suffered the dreadful condition of the Irish road network that was, then the occasional missed archeoligical dig is a small price to pay for progress. To quote from a Mary Black recording "We'll never see what lies ahead if we keep on looking back". Re Guest I dont think the lack of puncuation makes some of the points any less valid. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 01:00 AM (#1344020) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: chris nightbird childs That's a beautiful quote... I'll have to check out that MaryBlack... |
|
01 Dec 04 - 01:30 AM (#1344030) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: michaelr Brendy, thanks for that link. It's good to know that Ireland's government saw fit to protect the Burren by vetoing the planned "development". North Clare's wild Burren is of course much less populated than the Dublin suburbs of Co. Meath, and under less pressure. For now. (I do worry when I see verbiage like "cover the whole thing in a good thick layer of concrete".) Both Fibula Mattock and our Guest John make valid points about the need for "development and progress", which were necessary and essential to the Celtic Tiger effect and Ireland's current economic prosperity. However, as an outsider but recent visitor and one with a deep affection for the country, it appears to me that Ireland is at the crossroads where it needs to ask, "How much is too much?" Here in the US, we have a huge country. Nevertheless it's hard to get away from pollution, overcrowding and urban sprawl. Ireland is a small country. Building freeways as fast as you can was the way where I live (in California), and it turned into an endless tail-eating snake of more cars, more houses, more subdivisions, needing more freeways built, etc etc. I would be interested to know about the rate of immigration to Ireland. Is the country's population growing rapidly, or is this, with regard to the M3 plans, a metropolis/suburb phenomenon? Take it from a California resident -- Irish planners should take great care and pay respect and attention to their beautiful landscapes. We have seen it here: Once it's gone, it cannot be replaced. Cheers, Michael |
|
01 Dec 04 - 02:23 AM (#1344045) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural herita From: GUEST,Brendy "The vast majority of Ireland's population could not tell you if asked, where Tara is situated,not to mind have the first clue as to it's historical significance." What source are you quoting from there, thehiker? "I dont think the lack of puncuation makes some of the points any less valid" Or all of the points any more valid... Indeed michaelr. One never misses the water til the well runs dry B. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 02:48 AM (#1344062) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: GUEST,Brendy The proposed route of the M3 What some eminent archaeologists reckon Save the Tara - Skryne Valley Campaign Home Page B. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 02:54 AM (#1344065) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: Peace Is the Irish government as corrupt as governments elsewhere? |
|
01 Dec 04 - 03:01 AM (#1344067) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: GUEST,Brendy Judge for yourself, brucie... B. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 03:08 AM (#1344070) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: Peace Thank you. I have an Irish friend who has had great difficulty selling his house due to a council that has people on it who also stand to make some money, because one of the council has put a ridiculously low offer on the house and he's friends with the real estate agent. The council has issued permits to a neighbour to go across his land and it's been made a mess. I was wondering if it was just that locality or if it was the whole of the Emerald Isle. Thank you for the answer, Brendy. BM |
|
01 Dec 04 - 03:13 AM (#1344075) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: GUEST,Brendy Indeed, brucie... Power corrupts..., and absolute power corrupts absolutely. B. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 03:22 AM (#1344079) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: Peace Thought it was just North America. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 03:25 AM (#1344080) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: GUEST,Brendy ... you want to have grown up where I grew up.... No, on second thoughts you wouldn't have wanted to..... B ;-) |
|
01 Dec 04 - 03:31 AM (#1344083) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: Peace May be a bit like where I grew up. But our politicians were honest. They took 5%; never 6%, never 4%--always 5%. It's nice to have an elected official on whom one can depend. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 03:41 AM (#1344091) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: GUEST,Brendy "May be a bit like where I grew up..." What were the Shoot-to-Kill policies like where you were? B. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 03:44 AM (#1344096) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: Peace I grew up in Montreal. It wasn't policy. It was just the way things were. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 03:48 AM (#1344101) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: GUEST,Brendy mmmmmmmmmmmmmm B. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 03:50 AM (#1344102) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: Dave Masterson Much better to write a personal letter of protest. I read somewhere that for every person who takes the time & effort to write there are approx. 8,000 others who feel the same way. So your one letter represents the views of 8,000 people to those in authority, which has to be better than a petition in which the only effort on your part is to scribble your signature (manually or electronically) and move on. By the way Shambles, I win £102 every year on the Lottery, that's what I save by not doing it. Ha! |
|
01 Dec 04 - 04:59 AM (#1344127) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: The Shambles When the E petition on the licensing Act was running (still the largest one ever to be submited to No 10) there were quite a number of people who took the trouble to post - only to point out that petitions don't do any good. You can still hold that rather negative view but what is stopping you and us from from using as many different methods as possible (including petitions)? |
|
01 Dec 04 - 08:55 PM (#1344950) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: dianavan Are there any plans for rapid transit? Why are people building more freeways? I know that Ireland is booming but don't forget that progress pays a heavy price. Maybe its time to take a giant step forward and consider the alternatives instead of making the same mistakes as we have made in North America. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 09:27 PM (#1344976) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: thehiker Points of view are valid on the merit of the view expressed regardless of puncuation.Dont be a nit picker. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 09:53 PM (#1345000) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: thehiker To Brendy So Far This Thread Has 39 contributers, if all the Irish People who use and comment on the forum are a true reflection of the general population then I think the source of my opinion is well proven. |
|
01 Dec 04 - 11:26 PM (#1345063) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: diesel OK - I've been, refreshed the mind and saw the hill. Brought the kids, and let them runaround. One is old enough to talk about these things. The other was cold ! Winter cold that is. But he was thrilled when telling him stories. What I saw was a vista worth remembering. From the top a view all round to counties far away. No motorway will stop that. But also an archeological treasure. Let me explain - I'm not an archeologist by any stretch. I watch on TV programmes like 'Time team' who survey ground sites in flat fields and when digging trenches show where trenches and pits lay. Computer graphics put it together to give the impression and altogether a nice feeling when they put together the pots and brooches on the computer. On Tara - no need for computers or ground radar. No drawing lines on a map. But you could walk freely over the mounds left from the sites where buildings where. The whole encampment spoke to you. Someone lived here ! A sense of scale and belonging was there. Here was where the high King sat. Here is the field leading up to the entrance. Inside the gap in the mound the site breaks into two halves. The massive ditches surrounding the mounds.The height and size of the circular form of the mounds.You knew you were walking in history. Yes it was only grass, could be left over spoil from a building site for all I know, but the schools thought me my history (I've forgotten most)and I could always find a book to read more and look at the pictures. But nothing beats walking that spot to bring it to life. Thank you Brendy for the Map - it puts peace to mind the site of Tara hill itself will be left alone. But the accompanying letter from experts (!) asks for it to be stopped due to the wider area. Do they know better ? than me yes ! If lesser impact was wanted why not double the width of the existing N3 ? It's a straighter road ! A bypass of Dunshaughlin would suffice - Navan already has a bypass (in need of proper links maybe.) Progress is important ! Glen of the downs - build the road ! Carrickmines castle - dig it, learn from it and road around or over it. But the Boyne valley, with Tara, Newgrange and numerous site - lets thread carefully and slowly. I'm glad I went up ! And glad I signed the petition, and yes I will write a letter ! Interstingly - My Son of 13yrs - couldn't interest him in a hillwalk if you paid him.... admitted to Mum that he enjoyed it ! That was worth every bit of it. |
|
02 Dec 04 - 12:20 AM (#1345093) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: GUEST,Brendy ".... if all the Irish People who use and comment on the forum are a true reflection of the general population then I think the source of my opinion is well proven." ... and what if they're not? As far as nit-picking is concerned...., was it not an appalling speller in the first place who picked the nits of someone for spelling a word wrong? The pot calling the kettle black, I would suggest. I merely drew his/her attention to the fact.... Don't be a pain in the arse. No worries, diesel. B. |
|
02 Dec 04 - 01:04 AM (#1345124) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: GUEST,Brendy ... Now where's that fine-tooth comb of mine... Ahh... there it is.... a) "The vast majority of Ireland's population could not tell you if asked, where Tara is situated,not to mind have the first clue as to it's historical significance." has now changed to: b) "if all the Irish People who use and comment on the forum are a true reflection of the general population then I think the source of my opinion is well proven." What is the source of your opinion? ... because you stated a) as a fact Oh...., and if a quick look up this thread gives any indication of the general feeling towards this issue, then the source of your opinion is not well proven, thehiker. I would, however listen more to the people who are going to be affected by this decision; ie. the people in the Skryne valley, and take into account their concerns. I mean if some Government was going to put a bulldozer through your backyard, you wouldn't want some hurler on the ditch from the back of beyond, cheering them heartily onwards, now, would you? B. |
|
02 Dec 04 - 02:27 AM (#1345173) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: dianavan Well.....I'm not Irish (that I know of) but look Irish cuz I'm part Danish if that counts... I think I count because Tara represents not only the heart of the Irish literary tradition but perhaps, a great deal of the North American tradition as well. The Irish brought with them a very strong influence on American literature as well. I want to walk the halls of Tara once again. You got it diesal. What is really important in life is passing down to your son an ancient and proud history. I hope that in the mad rush to prosperity, the Irish remember who they are. |
|
02 Dec 04 - 11:07 AM (#1345470) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: Tannywheeler Hubby and I signed, too. Tw |
|
02 Dec 04 - 03:49 PM (#1345658) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: GUEST,Frank I don't live in Ireland so I'm not equipped to tell the Irish people anything. I remember taking scenic rides through the Irish countryside, though, and they are fond memories of a lovely land. Ireland has magical spots that hopefully of which they are proud and should be. It would be awful if they Americanized Tara, (by the way which is known to quite a few as an important historical site) just to satisfy some commerce. Maybe they would put up some Tara Condominiums for the tourist trade, a time-sharing building that caters to wealthy financiers who benefit from such obnoxious roadways. I hope fervently that they don't wreck the beautiful countryside which in my humble opinion is one of the real garden spots left in this brutal money-hungry world. Slan, Frank Hamilton Frank |
|
02 Dec 04 - 08:40 PM (#1345893) Subject: RE: BS: Petition: Save Ireland's cultural heritage From: michaelr Hear, hear Frank. Up Skehana! Michael |