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05 Dec 04 - 07:53 AM (#1347900) Subject: good ideas about sharp knives From: Big Al Whittle Now I admit I'm not a cook, or chef and I have no training in the correct way to slice stuff, but a few years back - I thought I'd like a nice sharp knife to slice onions and stuff like that. So complete schmuck that I am, I saw the Titanium knife set demonstration on the shopping channel and I asked for that for Xmas - convinced my problems would be over. Call it defective technique or what you will, but imagine my surprise when the cleaver and the big knife all bounced off the onions - I could do it with the serrated bread knife. But hell I had a bread knife already. So the titanium whatsits went into the drawer in disgrace, and not being a man to let the grass grow under my feet, a mere two or three years later, I took myself down to the cooking implements shop and bought a knife marked OXO Good grip. Now this is a good knife, and will cut most things - however it was £30 or so. has anyone found a cheaper way to do it. I wouldn't mind a couple of of other sharp knives now that I've got one that works. Its a nice thing to have. |
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05 Dec 04 - 07:54 AM (#1347901) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Big Al Whittle sorry this should be in non music. |
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05 Dec 04 - 08:00 AM (#1347904) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: McGrath of Harlow Go down the Pound Shop, where everything cost £1. Plenty of good knives there. |
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05 Dec 04 - 08:01 AM (#1347906) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: jimmyt I fought that knife business for years and finally my three kids got together and bought me a set of Henckel pros series knives. They are brilliant and although the require sharpening from time to time I have this automatic electric hone that puts an edge on them in a few seconds. When they are sharp there is nothing...wait, change that...there are not many things that are better. My daughter is a chef and she prefers Wustof knives. |
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05 Dec 04 - 08:05 AM (#1347907) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST,Toenails John Perfect use for defunct knives. Give it to a Bodhran player to play his instrument with (sorry couldn't resist) |
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05 Dec 04 - 08:51 AM (#1347921) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas A knife that "never needs sharpening" is generally JUNK. While it will perhaps hold whatever edge it comes with for a while, an excessively "hard" edge is very difficult to re-sharpen. Unless the very best (expensive) steel is used, the "superhard" steels also have a tendency to "intergranular brittleness" that compounds the difficulty of sharpening. You might want a hard edge in a jungle survival knife, it you have to KILL your meat with your bare hands, but they're generally not the best for household use. Wusthof, Henckel, and Trident are all very good knives, and are a real pleasure to use, assuming one has evolved to the "tool using stage." In addition to being good quality, and usable, they are also "sexy" in that "industrial grade" sense. Somewhat cheaper, and of fairly equal utility, Chicago Cutlery or Kansas City Cutlery are very good quality, and are what most of the "professional meat cutters" I know tend to use around my area. One factor here is that both of these makers typically give very good discounts to "professional cutters" so they get a pretty good deal. If you flatter him/her on the "exquisite touch" on a nice set of chops, you might be able to persuade the "meat guy" at your market to pick up a piece (knife) or two and pass on the discount. Even at "store prices" these are not terribly expensive - although both have "deluxe" lines that can run into the "german" brand ranges. The "standard grade" Chicago and KC knives generally have wooden handles, which in my opinion are actually a little more "hand fitting" than the "modern" substitutes, but that is a matter of preference. Most "department store" knives run to something like the "Flint" brand - just an example, there are MANY just as bad. These have a very hard, and usually brittle, edge. I've owned many, mainly as "gifts," and have never seen a "Flint" knife that was suitable for any use except as a screwdriver or perhaps a paint scraper. (I do use one for a letter opener, but I had to drastically rework it even for that.) You may also occasionally see really cheap (a relative term) knives advertised as "genuine carbon steel" - i.e. not corrosion resistant. These sometimes can be given a "passable" edge, but will rust. The main objection is that the "free iron" (rust) that comes off them in the dishwasher can "break" the passivation on your good stainless cookware and cause it to rust. I keep these out of my kitchen entirely. Sort of a "novelty act," but cheap and fairly usable is a brand called "Chuppa" that features cast-on aluminum handles. They advertise, but they lie, that they're "the sharpest knives you can buy." That's not true, but if you clean the edge "just a little" they do hold well, and are pretty much indestructible in kitchen use. Not too much selection in sizes and shapes though. Some people don't much like the "feel" of them, which comes mainly from the straight line shapes needed for the simple casting they do. With most makers other than the "prestige" lines mentioned above, it's impossible to rely on brand name alone to get good quality. One maker that appears frequently in my area in hardware and discount stores is "Tramontina," mostly made in Brazil, and some of theirs are pretty good. Others are "Flint" quality. A problem with them is that most of their stuff has some kind of serrated or other "funky" edge - not a knife, but a "saw" of some description. (There are uses for saws, but only a few in the kitchen.) I have found a few that made excellent knives once I cut the teeth off. There's also a "knock off" brand called "Travotina" that rarely has good steel, but usually is something less suitable. An additional "weakness" with the dime-store knives is that they frequently have very hard and slick finishes on the handles, making them pretty in the store, but harder to hold on to in use. The real secret to selecting good knives is to learn how to use them. It's a "skill" that takes some learning. Only then, should you invest in a "lifetime quality" selection. Wait until you're over 40 and have practiced cutting things for half a lifetime, then buy for your grandkids' lifetime. The only way to get good quality before that is to get them from your grandparents. (In the world as it should be.) John |
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05 Dec 04 - 09:27 AM (#1347941) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: The Fooles Troupe Check out a professional Chef Supply place... They lots of other goodies besides knives too! JiK has good specific US advice - you only get what you pay for. |
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05 Dec 04 - 09:42 AM (#1347948) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: mack/misophist A master machinist (CPO, pattern maker) taught me how to sharpen a knife. A 'razor edge' is too hard to maintain to be worth bothering with and usually cuts no better than a slightly jagged edge. Sharpen once every week or two on a medium fine stone and whet on a steel as needed. Remember to sharpen as if you were trying to shave the stone or the steel. The magnified edge should be about 60º, too steep an angle is fragile. High carbon steel takes a much better edge than stainless but is harder to maintain. I prefer Sabatier and Haenkel. It's really a matter of what works best for you, though. |
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05 Dec 04 - 11:17 AM (#1348002) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Bee-dubya-ell Many butcher departments use a knife service which replaces their knives with newly sharpened ones on a weekly basis (the butchers only do a little touch-up sharpening between deliveries). After knives from such services reach a certain point of wear due to repeated sharpenings, they are taken out of service. You can often get them at bargain prices if you don't mind the looks. I have a "worn out" Forschner boning knife that is my absolute favorite. It ain't purty but it cuts like the dickens. |
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05 Dec 04 - 11:51 AM (#1348025) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: John MacKenzie I swear by Global myself. Giok |
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05 Dec 04 - 02:35 PM (#1348128) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST,Cluin Keep them in a pyramid. (or so I've heard) |
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05 Dec 04 - 02:44 PM (#1348138) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Big Al Whittle Thanks for all this . I can see there is a lot more to this subject than I realised. |
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05 Dec 04 - 03:03 PM (#1348151) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST,Clint Keller Learn to use a whetstone and steel, and ***Keep them out of the G D diswasher!*** --and then there's woodcarving knives; you should strop them like a straight razor, but not quite. And ther'e Arkansas stones, and India stones, and ceramic and diamond stones and Japanese water stones-- a whole weird world... clint |
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05 Dec 04 - 03:53 PM (#1348172) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: YorkshireYankee JiK – WOW! Are you a chef? wld – you're in/near Sheffield, aren't you? I don't suppose you went to the Victorian Christmas Market at Kelham Island this weekend... Thing is, as you walk down the street to Kelham Island, there are several factories (i.e, Richardsons [knives/cutlery], Atkinson's [tools] and Cut-Rite [scissors]) who take advantage of the passing crowds and run their year-end inventory clearance sales on the week-end. This means you can buy high-quality knives, saws, scissors, cutlery etc at wholesale prices (or less!). For example, I've bought knife sets there for £20-£25 that were the exact same thing (or better!) as I've seen in department stores like M&S for £100-£150! Unfortunately, your/my timing is impeccable – as they will have just closed a few hours ago... However, my hubby & I stock up during these sales (presents for family/friends – especially those in the US) and if you PM me, we could see if we have something that matches what you're looking for; we'll be happy to pass it along to you for whatever we paid for it. (Or – if you don't mind letting the "grass grow under your feet" ;^) for a bit longer – you can wait 'til next year's Victorian Market rolls 'round again...) Also, JiK, while your answer was comprehensive and most impressive, you might be interested to know that a fairly recent (in the last 4-5 yrs or so) development in knives is a "high velocity oxy-fuel sprayed coating of tungsten carbide*" edge – which does not corrode and really and truly never needs sharpening. (These knives are so sharp, you are advised not to use them to cut anything on good plates, because they will seriously scratch the surface). I can vouch for these (we have a bunch of 'em, if you're interested) because my (metallurgist) hubbie's PhD advisor is the guy who invented/developed this coating specifically for this purpose). And – wld – they can even cut onions, tomatoes, etc! (JiK – if you're interested, you're welcome to PM me as well.) *I am hoping that I managed to correctly remember this technical description of them during the time it took me to finish talking with my hubbie and walk back to the computer...! ;^) |
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05 Dec 04 - 04:00 PM (#1348176) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Deckman As a life long carpenter and wood carver, I value my knives and chisels. A dull knife is very dangerous as you are tempted to use it as a sword or a hatchet. That's how "Three Finger Jake" earned his knickname. I use the "our knives need sharpening" ploy occasionally to go to my shop at night and build a fire in the stove, put on some good music, take a glass of vodka (I am a Finnlander) and sharpen our knives. I've even been known to do the same for some of my better deck customers, just as a "thank you" for the jobs they give me. As someone already said, learn to use a couple of different grits of stones ... and don't forget the vodka. CHEERS, Bob |
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05 Dec 04 - 04:01 PM (#1348177) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Deckman OOOPS! I forgot to mention an idea. One of our local meat markets will sharpen, for free, his customers knives occasionally. You might check around. Bob |
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05 Dec 04 - 04:02 PM (#1348179) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: jimmyt My daughter, a chef. also likes Global knives. I am not as big on them as I am my old Haenkels. along the same vein, I have some pocket knives and fantastic cork screws that are LAguiole. Beware of lots of companies calling themselves Laguiole but the CHateau Laguiole and the Forge Laguiole brands are fantastic as well as pretty pricey. I have a set of Forge Laguiole steak knives that are an absolute joy to use. |
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05 Dec 04 - 04:26 PM (#1348200) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas There's an old saying regarding Guest Clint's comment: "If it's not in your hand it should be in the block." A quick rinse when you finish the cut, and a wipe with a clean cloth will keep the knives in good shape. Unfortunately, the "pros" often don't have the option of doing what's best for the tools, since health department regulations in many places demand that "everything goes through the washer. As to the best sharpening methods, except for "the less the better," every user should learn how to do his own. Very slight variations in the edge "style" can make a big difference, and every usage sort of wants its own special touch. Only the one who uses it can really do it right. Yorkshire Yankee - I've been exposed to TC edged tools (the spray coat kinds and others) for over 40 years. In the "last 4 or 5 years" they've been made available in "consumer" cutting tools (knives) but I don't particularly care for them for most uses, for the reason above. With this kind of an edge, you're stuck with what it comes with, and I - and most who have learned to use their cutting tools - often don't exactly agree with the "one size fits all" camp. I do have a couple of "choppers" with this kind of edge, but I con't consider them favorites. The other side of "never needs sharpening" is "can never be sharpened" if you want a little different edge form for your use. John |
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05 Dec 04 - 08:31 PM (#1348370) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Margaret V So is there any special information I should know concerning good bread knives, or does the general information above tell me what I need to know? Thanks, Margaret |
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05 Dec 04 - 08:52 PM (#1348389) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: mack/misophist A good bread knife has a scalloped serration, usually. You can't sharpen it yourself without special tools. I'd say get one you like and replace it when it no longer cuts well. If you have got the equipment to sharpen it, I much prefer high carbon. Otherwise stainless is good enough and more convenient. Proper maintainance takes time and effort. You might not care to bother if it's not important to you. |
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05 Dec 04 - 09:10 PM (#1348403) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Deckman I still use one of my Grandmother's bread knife. It's different in that is like a little saw with very small teeth. The obvious age and feel of the handle is a delight. I'm guessing it's over one hundred year old ... and it's still got many more useful years left! Bob |
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05 Dec 04 - 09:31 PM (#1348423) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Dave Swan As others have said: Learn to sharpen your knives, whatever the quality, using multiple grades of grit. In a general purpose kitchen knife 22 degrees of edge works really well. To achieve that, stand the knife upright on the stone, there's 90 degrees; lay the knife over half way to perpendicular, there's 45 degrees; halfway over again gets you 22 degrees. Now take long, steady strokes in one direction, reverse and repeat. Lots on instructions are on the net providing details. I prefer high carbon steel for the edge I can put on it, as I can maintain the knife and not worry about rust. It's hard to beat the Wusthof Professional series, in my opinoin. And don't let your knives near the dishwasher, it's bad for the handle and the blade. D |
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05 Dec 04 - 09:35 PM (#1348431) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rapparee I use Chicago cutlery for the most part, and I have one AG Russell paring knife. I use what I and my wife can sharpen well, either by quick swipes on a steel or by the longer and better method of Arkansas stones. I also have a couple of SMALL diamond whets, but I haven't really done much with them. Some years ago I bought a "Japanese cleaver" type of knife. Stainless steel, and the tang doesn't got all the way through the handle. It dulled and my brother -- more about him in a minute -- sharpened it on his high-speed vertical sander. It's still got a heckuva an edge, but I don't use it much and when it dulls this time, it's history. My youngest brother can sharpen knives. Oh Boy, can he sharpen knives or anything else with an edge. He brings 'em to a fine wire edge by using progressively finer diamond laps and then polishes off the diamond edges with the hardest Arkansas stone available. Following that, he'll strop 'em. He learned to do sharpen from an old-time barber and has simply updated his tools. When asked to sharpen something, he usually takes it up to "usable" (shaves the hair off his arm); the last time I told him to do a REAL job (on my Leatherman's blade) he took it up to "dangerous" -- and I promptly cut myself and bled all over the hardware store counter. The cut did close nicely, though, and left no scar. My bro has also won bets by sharpening the old-fashioned scalpels and having surgeons use them (on meat, not people) against the new disposable ones. Someday, maybe this week!, he's going to mail me my epees AND the knife (damascus blade, antler handle) my other brother made and gave to the sharpener bro to, well, to sharpen. No, I won't be using that knife for kitchen work! |
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05 Dec 04 - 10:11 PM (#1348467) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull I'm a chef by trade, I'm also an ex slaughterman, a good sharp knife is important, it's also safer, [a sharp knife will not slip], get a good quality set of knifes, and use the right one for the job. In restaurants I used Sabatier, in slaughterhouses we usually use Sweebo knives, [there the ones with the yellow handles]. I reccomend Nisbets, they have a website at www.nisbets.co.uk their proffesional knifes start from only £2.95, they stock a full range of knifes, from all good makes, they ofeer next day delivery on all orders made before 5pm, I have used them myself many times, and always got good service. Other good knives include Victorinox, [same company that make Swiss Army Knives, it could be a good idea to visit your local catering supply shop, and hold a few knives, see which ones you prefer, buy a good sharpening steel as well, and ask a chef, or butcher to show you how to use it. |
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05 Dec 04 - 10:22 PM (#1348477) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Just looked at the Nisbets website, and apparently it's spelt Swibo. |
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05 Dec 04 - 10:55 PM (#1348491) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Big Al Whittle Many thanks for all this information and helpful advice. thanks everyone! |
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05 Dec 04 - 11:02 PM (#1348497) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: YorkshireYankee Actually not YY here; it's her other half. I'm a metallurgist; I used to work next door to the cutlery research lab (and got to take some of their used test samples home). My PhD supervisor invented (and patented) what I think is the very best of the no-sharpening knife systems. The first thing to think about is how you use and care for your knives. If you are a chef, butcher or similar or if you otherwise have access to training (or self-teaching) in how to sharpen a knife properly, then a traditional knife that needs frequent re-sharpening will give you the very best edge you can have. However, as the angle you are aiming for is 18 degrees, and half a degree does make a difference, those of us who are not kitchen gods may find that one of the better no-sharpening knives gives us better results than we could manage for ourselves. I'm assuming that wld does not want to invest the time needed in learning to professionally sharpen a knife and keep it in top form, so... There are many types of no-sharpen knife: The oldest (Richardson's "Laser 5", "Laser 10" and their copies) have an edge like a fancy saw. It does not cut like a saw though – because, unlike wood – food is soft. These work because the tips of the teeth take all of the wear, leaving the edge in the valleys between still excellently sharp, even after years of use. As the blade slides through the food, the fibres spring up behind the teeth, encounter the still-sharp part of the edge and are cut. Trouble is, they are a swine to clean (you get bits of washing cloth and towel stuck to the teeth) and they look ugly. When they do finally go blunt, you can't sharpen them without access to the special machine that originally made them. The more recent type (Richardson's "Plasma" and its copies) use Physical Vapour Deposition (PVD) coatings of Titanium Nitride (the pretty gold colour) or Chromium Nitride (a more boring grey). Often this treatment is combined with the "laser" type serrated edge – sometimes not. They work because the TiN/CrN coating is very hard, and wear-resistant, so they keep their edge for a very long time. The problem is the edge should be a sharp angle between the two sides of the knife, but as the nitride deposits, it tends to take on a rounded shape, and is not faithful to the sharp angle of the underlying metal. This means they start out kinda-sharp (not, as you might hope, sharp-sharp) but stay kinda-sharp for the rest of their lives. The coating is so hard that any attempt to re-sharpen the knife is very likely to damage the sharpener. The third type (the one invented and patented by Jess Cawley at Sheffield Hallam University and owned by Richardson's) uses a High-Velocity Oxy-Fuel (HVOF) sprayed Tungsten Carbide coating along the edge on one side of the blade only. They are marketed in the UK under the names "Fusion", "Fusion Infinity" and "Fusion Professional". They have appeared under M&S's own brand, but so do knives without this coating. They have been sold in the USA under the "Regent Sheffield" brand, but as far as I know are not widely available. The tungsten carbide is a dull grey, slightly speckled substance, laid down in a thin layer along just one side of the edge. If you run your finger VERY CAREFULLY across it, you can feel that it's rough. The Tungsten carbide is extremely hard and so it wears (and loses its sharpness) very slowly. However, when it does wear, it's the uncoated side of the steel that wears first, so the edge angle remains sharp. Eventually the uncoated edge wears so far that a microscopic flake of the edge, complete with the tungsten carbide coat, will come off, leaving a brand new and extremely sharp edge-surface – which still has the tungsten carbide protection and retains its 18 degree angle. Because one side is uncoated, it is possible to sharpen/modify the blade by sharpening only on the uncoated edge – though it's not reccomended unless you know what you are doing. The underlying metal is stainless steel, and (with precautions) will even tolerate being put in the dishwasher. Chefs will not make much use of them, because they can get better results by sharpening their own; they are also unpopular with those who want a knife that looks like the ones the TV chefs use (try Sabatier), but for the rest of us, the "Fusion" type Tungsten Carbide on-one-side knife is probably the most practical that money can buy – and far from being the most expensive. The final consideration is handle type. First, it has to be comfortable for you, and people do tend to have different hand sizes – one size does not fit all. Try before you buy. The cheapest is moulded plastic. It doesn't look so good and has an association with cheap knives, so the better ones for the domestic market don't tend to have them. However, if you look carefully at the cold meats and butchery counters at your supermarket, you will see that they are probably using moulded-handle professional knives – because the moulded handle gives no hiding place for bacteria and will survive the dishwasher. Next up (probably) is the wooden handle – as used by Chicago Cutlery in the US and very few here in the UK. (BTW, Chicago Cutlery are not as good as they should be for the price – the ones I've seen don't even use full tang!). Wood looks good, but wears badly, is the most prone to loosening, and gives bacteria a hang-out in the gap between the wood and that metal part that is the continuation of the blade into the handle (the "tang"). Next is the hard plastic riveted-on handle. They look good, wear well, are fairly resistant to loosening (especially if the tang runs the whole length of the handle – a "full tang"). There is not much possibility for bacteria to colonise between the plastic and the metal tang, because it's riveted on so tight. The ultimate is the fully-forged bolstered blade with full-tang three-rivet handle. The bolster (the thick piece of metal at the base of the blade on some knives) means that the meeting between the metal and the plastic/wood of the handle is a half-inch or so back from where it might touch the food. These knives tend to be hand-forged and are owned by professionals or handed down from ancestors. Buying them is seriously expensive, even if you go to the maker. Sabatier (and many of their competitors') knives look like they have a fully-forged bolster; maybe they did in the distant past, but what's on sale now has a ground blade with a "fake" bolster soldered/brazed on. Here endeth this week's metallurgy-for-chefs lecture! Next week: applying the general metalworking equation to pasta-making... Iain (YY's Other Half) |
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06 Dec 04 - 12:11 AM (#1348525) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Good points from Yorkshire Yankee. I bought myself a set of the "Laser 5" knives when they first came out, would not really reccomend them, [2 reasons, the early ones seemed to have a chrome type coating on the blades that wore of after heavy use, and secondly, they had plastic handles], like he says, they are also difficult to keep clean. Be aware of the different handle types mentioned above, it may seem insignificant, but bear in mind that a plastic handled knife, [Swibo, Victorinox, Laser etc] may be fine for use in cold areas, [butchers, abbatoirs, fish counters etc], a plastic handled knife left on a hot surface, will melt and become useless. Wooden handled knives, [and wooden chopping boards] are not popular in commercial kitchens as Enviromental Health Officers don't like them, Food Satefy Act 1990 states that surfaces and equipment used in commercial kitchens should be "Smooth, Solid and Impervious to dirt" ie, non porous and absorbant. you will still see wooden chopping blocks used in butchers, but in hotels and restaraunts chopping boards are almost always plastic and usually colour coded, [red for raw meat, green for veg, blue for fish etc]. Knives are a personal thing, but I prefer Sabbatier.A good set will last a lifetime.I think there is a set of Sabbatier knives in Argos, but check the prices, you may find it cheaper at Nisbets. |
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06 Dec 04 - 12:13 AM (#1348526) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: mack/misophist I once had a dress belt knift (experimental method) from Boie Knife Works, now defunct, in which carbide crystals were comehow formed within the body of a cast steel blade. I gave it to my nephew after 20 years, still sharp as the day I bought it. This kind of thing is rare. The blade featured a feather in reverse etching. |
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06 Dec 04 - 12:29 AM (#1348533) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Another thing about the "Laser" type knives, is that they are very light, I prefer a reasonably heavy knife. |
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06 Dec 04 - 04:24 AM (#1348614) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Hrothgar Don't carry them in your sporran. |
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06 Dec 04 - 05:16 AM (#1348637) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: robomatic Wonderful thread. As to wood versus plastic, some time ago I saw some stories like this: Wood Versus Plastic Cutting Boards I turned up several other such references, all claiming that experiments with bacteria treated wood and plastic cutting boards demonstrated that wood was apparently safer. They didn't have a theory as to WHY. I did a quick check on urban legends via www.snopes.com and turned up nothing. Eager to find out if the more experienced posters here have additional info. The knowledgeable entries in this thread have been a real treat to read, JiK, YY, JfH, thank you! I've been a Leatherman fan for years, always carry one with me. Got me in trouble in the airport Saturday when I forgot to put it in my luggage... |
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06 Dec 04 - 05:28 AM (#1348643) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST,Raggytash I purchased a Sabatier Chef's knife at the age of 17, used it professsionally for 8 years, all day every day and used it until 2 years ago when it (not me)had reached the age of 29. It is still a good knife but too small for most of the uses I put it to. I then purchased a new Sabatier Chef's knife at approx £25 which I envisage will last me in domestic use for the resy of my life and which last my son for some years after that. the first was Carbon steel which as already been stated holds a better edge, but the more recent stainless are almost as good. Do NOT wash it, wipe it clean and dry it after each use and the edge will remain sharp with just a brush with a steel before and after use Cheers Nick |
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06 Dec 04 - 08:04 AM (#1348712) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: The Fooles Troupe I notice that nobody had mentioned the 'auto-sharpening' knives (and scissors) that came with the 'sharpening holder'.... :-) |
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06 Dec 04 - 08:17 AM (#1348721) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST,Raggytash That's because basically they are cr*p |
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06 Dec 04 - 08:37 AM (#1348738) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Liz the Squeak We used to have one of those... I'm still using the Kitchen Devil I bought when I was 18... the auto sharpener barely made 18 months. LTS |
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06 Dec 04 - 09:25 AM (#1348770) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rapparee My Chicago Cutlery knives are full tang, and have walnut handles (which I don't care for as I should). I wouldn't buy anything but a full-tang knife for any use if I could avoid it, whether that use is in the kitchen or out in the woods & mountains. I've had 'em break on me when I needed 'em and the resulting cussin' is a wonder to hear. I also wouldn't have a pocketknife that wasn't a lockback. I've had THOSE close on my fingers when I was using them and the cussin' is similar and colored with blood. I wuz brought up to sharpen at a 10 to 12 degree angle. Dead right on trying the knives before you buy! If you can't use it safely and comfortably, don't waste the money. |
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06 Dec 04 - 10:57 AM (#1348855) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas I'm surprised to see the report of Chicago Cutlery knives without full tang. I haven't seen one like that in the local trade. Just goes to show ya' that you can't go by "brand name" alone. Most of the makers produce both good and bad, depending on your standards of goodness and evil. Re the report on wood vs plastic cutting boards: Local "Health Department" regs in my area now prohibit wood in "commercial use." They also require a separate surface for each kind of "meat." If you want to stay in business, you don't get to choose. In the home kitchen the choice is less obvious. Most oils, vegetable or mineral, are to some extent "bacteriostatic." They inhibit growth of bacteria, although they won't necessarily kill the little critters. The "food film" that adheres to many plastic surfaces is a nutrient for them, and is almost impossible to remove completely with ordinary "hand washing." For some of the common plastics, the "film" that adheres can't even be reliably penetrated by strong germicides/antiseptics. If you can (and do) run your cutting board through the dishwasher, at "sanitizing temperatures" the bacteria will be killed in the wash, and the plastic board will stand the dishwasher. If your board is too big for "sanitizing," or is bolted to the kitchen floor, then the wooden surface is arguably better. Keep it clean, and don't let stuff sit on it long enough to "grow into" the wood. Frequently, wash with a "germicide" (Clorox was often used in commercial kitchens before the wood ban), and as soon as the block is dry, replenish the oil (and the bacteriostatic properties) with a good vegetable oil or, if available, a "butcher block oil" specifically for this use. (NEVER put a mineral oil on wood.) The same treatment you use for the wooden cutting block/board can also be used on any wooden knife handles. Note that this interpretation is not accepted by all. They're entitled to their own damfool opinions. John |
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06 Dec 04 - 11:03 AM (#1348859) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Interesting post from Robomatic, It's useful to remember that abbatoirs, cuting rooms, fish counters etc are usually cold envioroments, whilst hotel and restaraunt kitchens are hot, bacteria grows better in warm enviorments. Also at the end of each day, a butchers block will be scrubbed with bleach to kill all bacteria, butchers suppliers sell stuff [not sure of the trade name, but Dettox type stuff] for this pupose. The reason for different coloured chopping boards is to prevent cross-contamination of raw and cooked food. If you use only 1 chopping board, uou could use 1 side for raw meat, and the other side for cooked stuff, just get a marker pen, and right "Raw" one one side, or get a small dot of red and green paint on each side. If you are chopping chicken etc, then going to carve it with the same knife after its cooked, it's an idea to give your knife a wipe with an anti bacterial wipe. Someone mentioned them "self sharpening knifes", that have a device in the knife box, they are rubbish! Get a good knife, and learn how to sharpen it properly. |
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06 Dec 04 - 11:09 AM (#1348861) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Bunnahabhain On a slight tangent, how to store knives. I feel much happier with the wall mounted magnetic racks. They stay clean, take up no space on the counter, mean you can always see your knives, and I've never had anything come off them. Knive blocks tend to end up dirty, take up counter room, and are prone to knocking over, which sends knives flying. Any of knowledgeable/opionionated people out there have an opinion? |
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06 Dec 04 - 11:11 AM (#1348864) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull John from Kansas posted while I was typing, but we seem to be saying the same thing! |
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06 Dec 04 - 11:16 AM (#1348866) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Liz the Squeak Have only had one accident with a knife block, had countless accidents with magnetic strips..... usually because the magnetic pull is too strong for the smaller bladed knives and pulling them off jerks the big ones off too..... nearly lost a toe trying to get a grapefruit knife off a magnitic rack, when the big carver decided to leap off too. LTS |
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06 Dec 04 - 12:24 PM (#1348930) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rapparee We store our knives in something like this. It's inexpensive, sits in a drawer, and is very easy to clean. The plastic doesn't dull the edges, either. My hunting knives, re-enacting knives, pocket knives, etc. are carefully stored in a wooden box -- OUT of their sheathes! |
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06 Dec 04 - 12:25 PM (#1348933) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: YorkshireYankee Just want to point out that I seem to be getting the credit for my husband's treatise on knives/cutting edges. While I'm tempted to allow myself to gain a Mudcat reputation as an authority on such things ;^), I thought I'd better make clear I'm not actually the one with the expertise. |
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06 Dec 04 - 01:09 PM (#1348968) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Big Al Whittle whats it Austin Powers said ....get back in the knife drawer....? |
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06 Dec 04 - 03:52 PM (#1349117) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: YorkshireYankee Iain here again Mack/Misophist: "I once had a dress belt knift (experimental method) ... in which carbide crystals were comehow formed within the body of a cast steel blade." It was probably tool steel. All high strength steels have quite a lot of carbide in them, but its usually iron carbide or chromium carbide. The real hard carbides are found in tool steel and high-speed steel. Some of these alloys have so much carbide in them that they stretch the definition of what is a metal and what is a metal-ceramic composite. Hrothgar: Good advice. Also don't do what YY does and leave them in the washing up bowl. Even if there is no water in the bowl yet, it's a bad idea... Rapaire: 10-12 degrees is super sharp but will have poor edge retention. Its more the kind of blade angle used for surgical instruments than kitchen knives. If 12 degrees is what you are used to cutting with, then thats what's right for you. BTW surgeons do not use the sharpest possible blades. Tests have been done with surgeons using blades that are as sharp as technically possible, but the surgeons found they cut so easily that they had no tactile feedback from the cutting resistance and so the blade was more difficult to control accurately. There is such a thing as too sharp, even for surgery... John/jOhn: Wet wood tends to be acidic, which is naturally bacteriostatic (trees after all are slow to rot and have evolved to resist bacteria over an awfully long time). The other thing that makes wood good for butcher blocks is that butchers usually not only disinfect the block at the end of the day, I have seen them also scrub it with a wire brush, so they remove the top layer of the wood, exposing fresh clean wood below. This just can't be done with plastic. This is one of the reasons that old butchers blocks are such a long way from flat and so much thinner than a brand new block. The problem with a wood handled knife is less the wooden handle and more the gap between the handle and the tang. The other problem with plasic boards and sharp knives is that the knives cut into the plastic and the plastic mostly closes up once the blade is removed, so its difficult to clean inside the cut. Knife cuts in wood tend not to close up, so when you clean the board you are more likely to remove whatever is in the cut. Bunnahabain/LTS: Blocks and magnetic racks are both OK. I've used both, blocks work best when you are able to keep the block at the back of the work surface where it won't get knocked often and can't fall to the floor. Some mag racks are a bit weak for really big knives, so either leave the big ones in the block (or in a plastic sleeve/tube in the drawer) or set up two mag racks so that the big blades cross both magnets. Don't overfill a mag rack, that increases the risk of getting a whole shower of knives when you wanted only one! Some of our knives live in a "knife drawer", a very low profile wooden drawer with recesses for various knives, this is built into the bottom of a fairly thick chopping board. Not only does it take up "no" space (we would have the chopping board anyway) but the thickness raises the cutting surface a bit closer to what our chiropractor advises, as opposed to what the furniture dwarves provide "as standard"... Iain YY's other half |
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06 Dec 04 - 04:15 PM (#1349151) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST,Clint Keller I think Mack/Misophist was talking about the knives made by David Boye. He calls the metal "Dendritic Cobalt." _________ Boye Dendritic Cobalt Advanced new metallurgy for the ocean environment, Boye Dendritic Cobalt (BDC) is not a steel, but a metallic alloy composed of cobalt, chrome, nickel, tungsten, silicon, molybdenum, iron, and carbon. BDC cuts aggressively, and keeps cutting. It is impervious to saltwater corrosion and is non-magnetizable. What is "Dendritic"? Dendritic comes from the Greek word meaning "branching" or "tree-like." It describes the crystalline pattern of hard carbide structures throughout each knife blade, as shown in the microscopic photo to the right. These carbide crystals create micro-serrations along the cutting edge and maintain its structural integrity. Each sharpening exposes a fresh set of hard carbide micro-teeth. _____ Look Here I must try one of these some day. clint |
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06 Dec 04 - 04:17 PM (#1349156) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rapparee Oh, I didn't say that I thought 10 to 12 degrees was a good idea, just that that's what I was brought up to do. In actual practice, I probably put on an edge more like 15 degrees. A true story about my brother and a knife he sharpened. Being unemployed, Ted often substitute teachs. And one of the regular teachers asked him to come in dressed as one of the settlers of the area would have dressed around 1820. Arrangement were made that he could carry his flintlock, axe and knife into the classroom. So Ted, a drama major and an actor, went "on stage." The kids were wowed. He demonstrated the rifle (without powder and ball, of course), explained the use of a corn boiler, discussed parched corn, and so on. Then one of the kids, a real smart-ass, said to Ted that since his rifle had no loads, obviously his knife was a fake too. Now, Ted had made that rifle. And to imply that he was faking it was more than he could take. He simply looked at the kid, pulled out the rifleman's knife (similar to this one), turned it edge up, and slowly lowered a piece of paper to the edge of the knife, paper edge to knife edge. It sliced the paper quite nicely. The punk then just sort of gulped and shut up. A knife? You call that a knife? Now, this is a knife! -- Crocodile Dundee |
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07 Dec 04 - 10:07 AM (#1349882) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: mack/misophist Dear Clint Keller, I stand corrected. My spelling was taken from the blades of the knives I still have - very small and easy to mis-read. The technical information is what I remember Mr Boye saying when he sold me the knife, many years ago. It was one of the first made. Thanks for the link. I thought that when the Sacramento area shop closed they went out of business. It's good to see he's still around. The ones I kept are so old, they were made from broken saw mill blades. |
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07 Dec 04 - 10:29 AM (#1349899) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rapparee My brother made me a patch knife (a small blade used to cut the patching when you load a ball into a muzzleloading rifle) from an industrial hacksaw blade. He mounted it into a handle of flamegrained curly cherry. It's a lovely knife. It holds a great edge. No, you can't have it. |
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07 Dec 04 - 11:50 AM (#1349973) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: mack/misophist It looks as if the Boye knives have changed dramatically since I was collecting them. He used to specialize in fine cutlery and belt knives ornamented with very good low relief etching. Too bad. For example, I have a cleaver decorated with a 3 x 5 inch etching of a mountain lion standing on a tree limb. Beautiful work. He wouldn't tell me how he got etching to produce an effect almost like engraving. |
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07 Dec 04 - 12:48 PM (#1350032) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Big Al Whittle Right thanks everybody! Yorkshire Yankee has sorted me out a nice set of knives and they do work.. Thanks to everybody. I was a supply teacher once, that story about the Davy Crocket chap was very nice .... god I would have love to wandered round threatening the little buggers with a machete or a ray gun. Thanks to you all for sorting out this problem. |
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07 Dec 04 - 03:45 PM (#1350217) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Hollowfox Repaire, I think I'm in love with your brother. He can sharpen blades that well, and shut up a lippy kid during a school visit?!? classy! By the way, why do you store your blades outside of their sheaths? Mary (the Bloodthirsty, er, knife-loving Librarian) |
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07 Dec 04 - 03:57 PM (#1350227) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: SINSULL Knives - the bane of my existence when Dad's insomnia led to night time infomercials. I got Ginzus and knives that cut cans and knives with pretty handles and knives in blocks...you get the idea. Not one of them cuts worth a damn. |
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07 Dec 04 - 04:11 PM (#1350239) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rapparee I store the knives outside the sheaths because the chemicals used to process leather can cause the blades to discolor, the edges to dull (from oxidation, more commonly called 'rust'), and even cause pitting. This is with a couple of exceptions. If I kept my Buck General outside the sheath the poor thing would think it had been exiled or worse. (No, I don't normally buy huge knives. I bought this one back in 1968 to kill people. Really. Our National Guard unit had been activated and was going off to Vietnam and my brother Tony and I decided we really needed a good knife "just in case". I paid US $35.00 for it back then....) The second one I keep in a sheath is my "Air Force Survival Knife," a gift from some veterans I'd worked with. It has a Parkerized blade, so I don't feel bad about it. |
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07 Dec 04 - 04:36 PM (#1350269) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Hollowfox Thanks, Darlin'. I'll shift my blades out when I get home from work tonight. |
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07 Dec 04 - 04:45 PM (#1350283) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST,Clint Keller mack/misophist: I boght David Boye's book when it first came out way back and that's why I remember his name. But I never got any of his pretty knives, and now I can't. Too bad. I suspect the etching is done in stages: the deepest background first, second deepest and the deepest (again) next, and so on. And I'm ashamed to admit I all too often leave knives in the sheath. It's really gross if there's brass in contact wikth the leather. clint |
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07 Dec 04 - 05:53 PM (#1350359) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Murray MacLeod Many people seem to labour under the misapprehension that "Sabatier" is a brand of knife, probably because most Sabatier knives have "Sabatier" stamped on the blade. It isn't and never was. Sabatier is a style of knife developed by the French chef Sabatier, and has always been manufactured by many different makers. Just like many different manufacturers other than CF Martin make "Dreadnought" guitars. |
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07 Dec 04 - 06:01 PM (#1350369) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: LilyFestre Personally, I like Rada knives. They are inexpensive, easily sharpened, all metal so no worry of stuff growing in the wood. I also like (and used to sell) Cutco knives. The tang goes all the way to the bottom of the handle of the knife, good edge, incredibly long lasting....a bit more on the expensive side though. Michelle |
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07 Dec 04 - 07:43 PM (#1350453) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Blowzabella I have a pattern-welded knife that a blacksmith friend made me as a wedding present (I know, I know, I have strange friends...) - anyway, my question is - I keep it oiled and in a sheath lined with sheepskin - will it be ok? It is made of mild steel I think - or possibly iron with a mild steel edge to it. (Reconstruction of an Anglo-Saxon artefct) (Another wedding present was a reproduction of an Anglo Saxon cremation urn) (Do you think there is a thread in this - what odd wedding presents did you get?) |
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07 Dec 04 - 08:08 PM (#1350473) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST,petr ever since I took a chinese cooking course years ago, I prefer my Chinese cooking knife. Kind of like a cleaver (Its well balanced as you can crush garlic with it (using the flat side), chop it and then slide it under to pick it up) Its great for chopping vegetables for a stirfry (which are actually steamed anyway not fried, if done right) theres a different cutting action for meat and chopping vegetables, it really is the only knife I use for most of my cooking. (it wouldnt be great for cutting bread though) dont know what brand it is, bought it in Chinatown. It wasnt very expensive. and havent had to sharpen it for years, but its about time. I do believe though, that you are most likely to cut yourself with dull knife. Yeah I dont buy that stuff about wooden boards either. I use both but prefer wood. (maybe, but then look at what the medical community in North America believed about breast feeding in the 50s and 60s) petr |
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08 Dec 04 - 12:18 AM (#1350615) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: mack/misophist Blowzabella, Most ancient scabbards were of wood. Magnolia works well. Take 2 thin planks, cut matching areas for the blade, glue them together, then shape the outside. Not as easy as it sounds but not all that hard. Japanese blades have a special fitting that makes an almost water tight seal when the blade is sheathed. Personally, I think your wedding present will survive just fine. |
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08 Dec 04 - 12:23 AM (#1350619) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas We've had mostly discussion of "brands" here, but little comment about the particular styles people like. I do have one of those "Japanese" (probably about like the "Chinese" that petr mentioned) cooking knives, and use it quite a lot. I got mine from a little "generic oriental" shop in Seattle quite a few years ago. Mine is marked "Pilot - Sakei Japan" and my recollection is that I paid about $20 (US) for it, maybe 15 years ago. I've tried a couple of cheaper similar ones, but wasn't much pleased with them. It's pretty much standard to have one good "butcher knife" about 8 or 10 inches long. This one has a slightly curved cutting edge, about 1.5 inches deep at the "fat" end, and should have a thick enough backbone to "spread" the meat for thick cuts. If there's one knife in your "kit" that it's worth spending a little extra on, this would probably be "the one." My current one is a KC Cutlery, although I have a Trident/Wusthoff in backup. A good one will probably run around $30 - $40 (US) in my local shops, although you can go close to $200 for some of the "exotic" ones. My recollection is that the Trident had a "list price" of about $135, but of course you don't pay list for them. Less used, perhaps, but handy is a "slicer." Some people call it the "ham knife," and it gets used mostly for slicing thin slabs off the Christmas ham or turkey. Straight edge, usually 8 to 10 inches long, and about 3/4 inch deep blade. Because it's often used in front of the guests, many people opt for a "pretty" one, and as long as it holds a decent edge I wouldn't fuss too much about having a particularly expensive one. The "Waverly Edge" (scalloped) is common here, and is probably ok, given the limited use by most people. Every cook needs at least one "French Chef." I personally prefer a shorter one, about 8 inch, but 10 inch and larger are popular. Most of the "class" ones are a fairly heavy blade. Some people prefer something a little lighter. While the bigger ones are "impressive," your choice should depend on how large a workspace you have. For most home kitchens the larger ones are a little too much. This is one you have to try it out to find what suits you. I use mostly my KC here too. It - or the "Chinese" - are what you use for mincing and dicing. Many "sets" include a Cleaver, but for home use I find they mostly just sit in the block. It's usually better to "find the joint" and cut it with a knife than to "hack through" - at least for the stuff you're likely to deal with unless you're starting with "live meat on the hoof." At least one decent "Boning Knife" is a good addition. This one should have a fairly "slim" blade, but not too flexible. It's the one for getting the last bit of meat off the turkey carcass, and for general purpose with smaller jobs that don't quite need the butcher knife. About a 7 inch long blade is pretty typical. The only "serrated blade" I use, only loosely called a knife, is the "Bread Slicer." With the hard crusts "She" bakes, you do need a little "tooth" to get through the crust without crushing the loaf. I use a $9 one that lives in the bread box (so the real knives won't be offended). Smaller utility knives are generally cheap enough that you can try out a few and settle on what suits you. Paring knives, etc come in remarkable variety, but a few reasonably good 3 inch paring knives, a "hook blade" parer or two if you like them, and perhaps a couple of slightly larger "utility" kind should equip most people for doing what needs to be done in the kitchen. In the "utility" group, some may want a "Filet knife," but for most that one belongs with the fishing tackle. It looks similar to the boning knife, but has a very flexible blade, for "following the skin" when you filet your fish. (Often with an assymetrical edge, too.) Not needed by most people in the kitchen, but suit yourself. I use a couple of "utility knives" that are converted from "steak knives" of the sort you see in some "class" steakhouses. The came with serrated blades, large handles, 6 inch or so long x about 1.3 deep blades, and with the "teeth" ground off they make a very nice utility knife - for about $3 (US) each. With the teeth left on, I'd consider them a "throw-away." Very handy, after conversion, for camp cooking, since they are about right to replace the paring knife and a larger utility size almost up to butcher knife scale. Of course, everyone should have - and learn to use - a good "Steel." And no "gentleman" is properly dressed without a serviceable pocket knife. John |
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08 Dec 04 - 09:39 AM (#1350918) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rapparee Good selection, JiK. We also have a very good carving set with an excellent blade and meat fork we use for carving at the table (on those increasingly rare occassions when we do that). I'd also add a servicable meat fork. It's not a knife, but it can certainly make using a knife safer and easier. Tongs are also an excellent idea from many angles -- I have several pairs. We eat a bit of salmon, and a fillet knife is just the ticket for taking off skin. |
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08 Dec 04 - 11:20 AM (#1350987) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas The "fork" subject is one open a bit to "deviant preferences." Even with the best of "carving forks," without a good work surface you're often likely to use the fork to propel your turkey into the lap of the guest of honor. The typical "platter" is not an ideal surface. If you're likely to be carving for guests at the table, I'd recommend that the carving fork be accompanied by a "table board," preferably of generous size, with a large drip channel all around, and I wouldn't object to a couple of little "anti-skid spikes" in the center area. The typical "ritual carving" is a "made for embarrassment" situation. Too small a space, usually standing in a awkward position, too much nearby clutter, - but with practice it can be a noble thing. Since I rarely "carve" at the table, I usually just "grab hold" as appropriate on the big meat board. For the squeamish, or with guests who insist on watching, you can don a surgical glove (or a baggie). If you cut raw meat there, you should of course carefully clean and sanitize the board, and/or lay a clean smaller board on top before carving. Nearly all meat should be "rested" after it comes out of the oven (or pot) enough that it shouldn't be too uncomfortable to "lay hands on it." It will slice much more cleanly once the temperature has settled. I would have included a good "gravy fork" as a needed accessory, but here they are impossible to find except in antique stores. Often called a "granny fork" this is the small fork about the same size as a dinner fork, but with thin, flexible tines, and ideally a wooden handle. Useful for turning bacon in the skillet, and larger meats if you're careful. If you can find one sufficiently flexible, they're what you stir the "sop" with in the skillet; but you need to be able to flatted the tines against the bottom of the skillet to scrape the crumbs loose. Serious research indicates that the last such (in name only) item imported into the US was before 1981, and that was an abominable piece of sh*t designed by a Chinaman who had never seen anyone eat with a fork, much less cook with one. Calling a "granny fork" doesn't make it useful. The last couple prior to that were only "marginally usable," and as best I can determine there have been only four styles made or imported here in the past 40 or 50 years, ONE of which was not too bad. I use a couple I picked up at the antique mall. They run $10 or more in my area if only "badly worn," and more if they're in fairly good shape. Some people like to keep a pair of "kitchen shears" handy. If you deal with a lot of shellfish they can probably be useful. I keep a clean pair of ordinary scissors for opening stubborn packages, but find the use of shears on most meat unnecessary. You can generally do a better job of separating things with your good knife, if you look for the right place to cut, than by attacking with shears. And the etiquette books say you must eat your meat with a fork if it has bones that are cut. You can use your fingers (chicken, etc.) if the meat has all "uncut bones." Using shears or a cleaver on "finger food" might embarrass the guests by breaking something. (But I do wonder how you apply that rule to fish.) :-) Once the basics are at hand, there are any number of "special" tools. Maybe we'll get some offerings there as well. John |
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08 Dec 04 - 12:55 PM (#1351071) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Big Al Whittle My neice asked to get her for last Christmas, one of those knives that rock around and you cut up herbs with. That seemed expensive - about £25 for what it was. is there any other use for them? |
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08 Dec 04 - 01:39 PM (#1351102) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas Actually, I have a couple of those "rocker knives." I would think that £25 is a bit much. I got one when it was on sale for $3.49 (US) at Walmart, just out of curiosity. I liked it enough to go back and pay the "regular" $9.95 for one for the camper, although I wouldn't have been $10 worth of curious if the first one hadn't been on sale. It works nicely for mincing things very finely, and doesn't seem to kick stuff around quite as much as using a Chef knife (or the Chinese variety we mentioned above) so you can mince small amounts of stuff on a smaller board. It doesn't work well if your "starting stuff" makes a pile much over about a half inch deep, but I'd think it would work nicely for herbs, especially the "leafy stuff." The ones like I got come with a little "storage stand" that's adequate ONLY if you can put it somewhere "out of the traffic." I'd recommend against trying to keep one in a drawer with other stuff - as they'll likely eat each other up. I made a "full blade" block that works as a stand when you take the blade out, for the camper. In the block, I feel safe enough putting it in a drawer. Loose, it would be hazardous, since the odd shape makes it "stick up" where you don't expect it. One of those special purpose gadget things, for special purposes. John |
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08 Dec 04 - 01:48 PM (#1351110) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rapparee I haven't mentioned my ulu, probably because I simply use it. I assume that you mean that when you talk about a rocking knive. The same rules regarding sharpness and quality apply. Mine happens to be a traditional one, made from a old circular saw blade (you can even more trad ones made from stone, etc. but I'd only use such a thing for decoration). Keep it in the holder it comes with, treat it as any good knife. Frankly, I wouldn't like to be without it. Learn to use it well and you'll like it very much. |
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08 Dec 04 - 04:50 PM (#1351275) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas Rapair - The ulu is pretty much the same thing as the ones I've got, except for the solid handle. The knockoff at Wally world has a flattened "ring" handle so you can stick your fingers through. One of the larger ones might be more useful for some of the other tasks the ulu site mentions. I generally prefer one of my more conventional knives, but that's more from having good ones I've learned to use for those things. "She" has a taste for those canned rubber bands they call "mushroom pieces" at the supermarket. I find it just the thing for making the pieces small enough to extract what little flavor they have into the broth and to avoid having to chew on them. Possibly a hammer would work as well for that particular purpose, but... John |
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09 Dec 04 - 08:43 AM (#1351909) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: The Fooles Troupe In that Japanese show "Iron Chef" - one challenger was knwon for the extra length of his chef knif - it was nearly as long as a sword - and he was definitely well skilled with it... |
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09 Dec 04 - 09:59 PM (#1352549) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Dave Swan Rapaire, Right you are about the ulu. P.J. brought me one from her last trip, which was spent collecting songs on Baffin Island. A damn handy knife it is. According to the missus, these are carried in parka hoods and in pockets, using no sheath, and are wielded by children. Obviously used by people in tune with their tools. It's a great knife which takes only a a little trial and error to learn to sharpen. I've learned that it wants to be sharpened at a pretty flat angle. I use it frequently because it does so many things with so little effort. |
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09 Dec 04 - 10:26 PM (#1352571) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rapparee Which is why I forgot the mention it before -- to me, it's like the air: it just is. I've heard that an Inuit woman skinned and butchered a seal with an ulu in less than four minutes. Now that's knowing how to use your tools! |
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05 Nov 05 - 11:31 PM (#1598478) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: mack/misophist Above, there was some discussion of D Boye's 'art' knives. It seems he sold that part of his business (and trained his successor) when he retired. I just learned that is's still going strong and can be found here. |
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05 Nov 05 - 11:32 PM (#1598479) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: mack/misophist Sorry, that url is francineetchings.com |
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06 Nov 05 - 07:01 AM (#1598549) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Sandra in Sydney speaking of slashed wrists - well, palm of hand. I get my knife sharpened at the local chef's equipment shop (ya should've seen the line of apprentice chefs & their teachers outside that little hole-in-the-wall shop recently!) I've always considered that getting it back wrapped in newspaper after I take it in wedged inside a stapled envelope/pouch of thick cardboard a bit dangerous. It was this time & I have a finger-length shallow cut across the base of my palm. It was all very exciting, with several gloops of blood which I treated with tea-tree oil & bandaids. Later I was chopping garlic & stabbed my finger, so more tea-tree oil & another bandaid. The moral of the story is that I will take along my cardboard pouch the next time I collect it, tho a better moral might be might be that I keep it sharp so I don't stab myself. ps. thanks Mudcatters & Guests for a lot of good info. I recently replaced one of my wooden boards with a plastic one, which has become very scratched. I'm glad I kept one wooden board, cos it seems cleaner & I just might consider getting rid of the plastic one cos hand-washing doesn't seem to clean those scratches. |
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07 Nov 05 - 05:48 AM (#1599178) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Gurney I have an el-cheapo Chinese sheath knife that I use for a baitknife for fishing. It keeps an edge better than any other stainless-steel tool I've ever handled, and it is so sturdy that you can hammer it through a frozen Tuna. Sometimes you get lucky. It's been said several times, you are LESS likely to cut yourself with a sharp knife. It's less likely to slip and you are more likely to be careful. I use a cleaver for most kitchen cutting, after seeing oriental chefs using them. Good for cheese, particularly. I can't see a problem with those self-sharpening kitchen knife sheaths. The knife doesn't last long, but it doesn't cost much either, and the sheath (Wiltshire) will last for several knives, and whilst I can sharpen tools, SWMBO can't. If only I could persuade her to use a decent size of knife instead of that tiny 'vegetable' knife..... Has anyone else observed that men use bigger knives than women? |
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07 Nov 05 - 09:50 AM (#1599321) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Lady Hillary A little detail: Most serrated knives are right handed. If you use them left handed, you will find that the cut curves to the left. It's really just a control issue. Also, a lot of cultures have variants on the ulu. The mezzaluna is usually used with a chopping bowl and is great for all sorts of foods that need to be chopped and diced. |
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07 Nov 05 - 11:39 AM (#1599364) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas Gurney – The females around my house have had a similar preference for "teeny-weeny" knives, but have started using a more utilitarian size since I added to the collection recently. My "currently popular" utility knife is made from the Steakhouse Knife shown about halfway down here. I found a few at $3 US each at a local supermarket, and bought a couple "to play with." When I found that once the serrated edge was removed they made a really nice kitchen utility knife, I went back and bought the rest of them (about 8 total). The cheap ones had unfinished wood handles, which are very comfortable to use. The same knife, but with a slick hard finish on the handles is still available at a couple of local hardware stores, at about $6 each, and I've converted a set of 6, but I don't really care for the slick finish. I've threatened to try stripping the finish, but laziness has prevented it. The cheap ones are marked "Steak House, Premium Beef" on the blade, while the "fancy ones" are marked "Tramontina, High Carbon Stainless Steel." Blades appear to be identical, a little more polish on the high priced ones; and the necessary grinding to remove the teeth indicates they're almost "burn proof" under any reasonable amount of grinding. After the teeth are removed, a quick pass on a belt sander, about 80 or 120 grit, puts a nice utility edge on with no real need for additional finishing. (If you polish off the "tooth" left by the sandpaper, you have to make them a whole lot sharper to get about the same ease in cutting for most kitchen purposes. Either way works.) **** Japanese Knife: Mentioning it in the thread made me curious about my "Japanese knife," since I'd never bothered to find out exactly what to call it. According to Wikipedia: Nakiri bochu it's a Japanese vegetable knife (Nakiri) with the "Tokyo" blade shape. Mine has an apparently "westernized" wooden handle much like common kitchen knives. Blade markings are "Pilot, Sakai Japan, Sharp Stainless" and the box says "Pilot/1500" but I haven't found that as a brand name (or as anything else) on the web. Kikuichi Warikomi Gold Elite Vegetable Knife looks like mine except for the ferrule and a slightly more "round edged" handle, but at $110 list probably is a bit different. I paid about $18 or $20 (US) for mine, although it was about 15 years ago. 6.5-in. Nakiri Knife is close to my "Japanese knife." Differences are that mine has a wooden handle, slot and rivets, in place of the "simulated bamboo" shown, and cost me about $18 instead of the $30 shown here. Fifteen years may have inflated prices that much(?). Kershaw 6616N Wasabi Nakiri Vegetable Knife 6.5-in. is also similar, but again has the round handle that I find less comfortable and is about 3x the price I paid. Shape is about like the Messermeister Asian Precision Usuba Knife - 7 inch except their description of this knife as a "lightweight cleaver" implies a much thicker blade than the one I like. The "cleaver" reference isn't really consistent with the Wikipedia description of the Usuba, but it might not be too far off. It appears, from my bit of poking around, that if one just asked for a "Japanese knife" they'd probably be offered something called a santoku knife. This name doesn't appear in Wikipedia's Japanese knife types, and I suspect a "made up for westerners" naming – sort of a "Japanese French Chef;" but all the popular ($$$) makers seem to offer one. It's a completely different style (for my purposes) than what I have. For most of the other Japanese styles, I'd probably prefer a common "western" type, but the very thin blade on the Nakiri does "do better" for chopping veggies and some other things. **** Ulu: An accidental find during my browsing was another source (maybe already mentioned?) for the Ulu, at Cove Cutlery: Ulu. I got mine at Walmart, about $10 (late at night when nobody would see me shopping there.) John |
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08 Nov 05 - 11:08 AM (#1600024) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Peace "good ideas about sharp knives" Have an enemy? Give him a set of hefty sharp knives and an instruction book: "How to Juggle Like a Professional in THREE EASY LESSONS". |
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08 Nov 05 - 12:09 PM (#1600045) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Bunnahabhain Peace, your gift set left out one important item: The blindfold. |
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08 Nov 05 - 08:04 PM (#1600331) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Peace LOL I will remember that, thank you! |
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08 Nov 05 - 11:08 PM (#1600440) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Q (Frank Staplin) Very late to enter this thread, but over several years I have put together a small collection of old high carbon knives. These darkly mottled ugly wooden-handled knives, often mis-shapen from use, can be sharpened on good novaculite (genuine Arkansas) stones, and from then on may be kept in good form by use of a steel. Most went to the dump years ago, but sometimes one may be found in the poorest of junk shops. Cost- nothing to a dollar or so. A few years ago, a Canadian company called Lee Valley found a small cache of unused knives of this kind in a warehouse in France. Only two sizes, but excellent! I wish I had bought more to give as presents. |
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08 Nov 05 - 11:31 PM (#1600450) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas Q - One occasionally finds good old knives that aren't necessarily particularly high carbon. The "lesser" irons will take an edge, and even hold one pretty well, but they have a tendence to rust too rapidly, and the rust destroys the edge - along with the rest of the tool. An old knife that's been used, and had a lot of meat run across it, been washed for decades in lye soap with lots of fat in it, will eventually take on a "surface treatment" that's almost indestructible. Commercial and industrial surface treatments try to do it in a hurry; but the old tools that get it built up slowly can be remarkably usable and durable. A specific instance where the "treatment" happens fairly often is with old barber equipment. Constantly bathed in "hair grease" they can form an almost indestructible skin, and if it's not taken off too agressively when sharpening they seem to "heal over" the sharpened edge so that they act like "stainless" (of a rather peculiar color) even though they're not particularly "high performance" metal. It's a process a bit like the "cure" on granny's cast iron skillet, I suppose. John |
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09 Nov 05 - 02:18 AM (#1600474) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Kaleea My knife is a Klingon Bat'leth! |
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09 Nov 05 - 04:23 AM (#1600495) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Gurney Bat'leth? Is 'Bat' Klingon for tongue? (No, no, of course, it is Simpson for 'Cheek.) (I spend too much time in front of the TV.) |
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09 Nov 05 - 09:32 AM (#1600628) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: EBarnacle Since we've finally gotten around to surface treatments, I'll drop one of my own. About 20 years ago, I accidently left one of my self-made knives aboard a friend's boat. About a year later, I discovered it in the galley sink, with a lot of surface rust. I cleaned it up, ending with a knife with a lot of surface pitting. For some reason, it no longer rusts and holds an edge like grim death. |
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10 Nov 05 - 08:34 AM (#1601353) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Dani Great thread! True, no music, but very good information. Two thoughts: It is absolutely true that dull knives are FAR more dangerous than sharp. And,'plastic' cutting boards are easily re-surfaced when they are scratched up, and are thus as dangerous as any poorly cleaned wooden board. Depending upon the size and shape of the board, it may or may not be worth the cost, but any knife sharpening service ought to be able to do it for you. Dani |
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10 Nov 05 - 11:32 AM (#1601496) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rapparee Wash ANY cutting board with hot water and soap after EACH use and every month or so wipe it down with chlorine bleach (rinse it off really well no matter what you use, of course). Recently I was slicing round steak into thin strips, cutting at about a 60 degree angle. Yup, you sure can cut yourself with a sharp knife. And the next day I cut myself on the edge of a colleague's desk, too. You can do a lot of things, but some of 'em ya gotta work at. The size of the knife you use depends upon the job at hand. But sharp is always good. Anyone know of a really good bread knife? A knife designed for cutting bread, not simply a long, serrated, blade? |
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10 Nov 05 - 04:34 PM (#1601684) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: EBarnacle I've been using a Gustave Emil Ern 898 for the past 15 years. Bought it at a restaurant supply store on the Bowery in NYC. It is stainless. The tang has 3 rivets holding it into its wooden handle. It still looks like new. |
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10 Nov 05 - 05:21 PM (#1601722) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Q (Frank Staplin) JohninKansas, I have had guests look at the carbon knives I use, and tell me they are dangerous, not because of cuts, but because they look dirty- they must harbor bacteria! So much for most peoples' knowledge of knives. I see lots of Gustave ... in use by butchers here. Rapaire, I have two good bread knives, both about 8 inches long (any shorter and it is hard to cut diagonally). I just checked them to see what they are. One is a cheaper Henckels ('Superfection') and the other is a Cook & Clark made in Sheffield, from a garage sale. I think it is a cheapie, but it works well. The size of the serration and number per inch are important; in a kitchen drawer I have some that are terrible although they were sold as bread knives. |
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10 Nov 05 - 07:05 PM (#1601797) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: The Fooles Troupe Aussie Butcher Blocks used to made from chunks of Eucalyptus trunk - up to 4-5 feet or even larger in diameter. A few feet high on small legs that raised it above the sawdust floor. They were scraped and washed with bleach every day. But these days "you can't get the wood you know"... :-) The Eucalyptus oil is a disinfectant. |
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11 Nov 05 - 11:17 AM (#1602362) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Wilfried Schaum I carry a pocket knife, plastic handle, drab. It was issued by the Federal Armed forces as gift for the conscripts; got mine about 15 years ago. I keep it sharp with a small pocket diamond whetstone which I also carry with me everytime. For my kitchen I use Japanese knives (wood handles), honing them regularly with oil. Small work, with lots of music, and wonderful success. No problems with wood in the kitchen; a good cleaning after use works wonders. And I think a main problem with instabile health today is that people relay too much on hygiene. I have seen a lot of dirt and dust in the field (scouts and army) and am still going strong. |
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11 Nov 05 - 01:01 PM (#1602456) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas There is a fairly widely accepted notion that the great polio epidemic was the direct result of the spread of indoor plumbing. There were/are I believe(?) 4 variants of the "bug," 3 of which were mild but kept a general resistance prevalent, which prevented widespread infection by the one serious variant. "Improved" sanitation wiped out the "inoculant" varieties, leaving everyone susceptible to the paralytic one. Once the nasty one reached "critical mass" it spread virtually everywhere. Less accepted, but still open for further research, is that the apparent surge in "asthmatic conditions" in the population may be the result of "overly fastidious" protection of small children from "dirty things" that could have innoculated them while their immmune systems are developing. Apparently valid research has indicated that asthma and similar "allergic problems" are much less common when there were pets in the household while the children were small; but it seems to have little effect beyond about age 2. John |
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09 Nov 06 - 06:30 AM (#1880028) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST where can I order chuppa knives from? |
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09 Nov 06 - 06:53 AM (#1880034) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Over the years I have owned several good quality knives used for a variety of hard work purposes. I kept them all very sharp with constant care. The best products that I have ever found and used, are the Eze-Lap Diamond Steels. http://worldwideknives.com/sharpeners/ezelap1.html |
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09 Nov 06 - 07:08 AM (#1880037) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Big Al Whittle Just want to say I still have the set of knives Yorkshire Yankee got for me and they are still working beautifully - quite as good as the knife I paid £30 for. I owe her and her husband a big drink next time I see them. feel free to present this as an IOU. |
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09 Nov 06 - 11:22 AM (#1880247) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: EBarnacle I recently spoke with a cutler/blacksmith at a RenFaire. We got around to the nature of the edge on swords and knives. He was most emphatic that the last thing you want on any chopping or slashing tool is a highly sharpened is a supersharp edge as they are too vulnerable to dulling. Taking this a little further, the same applies to a cleaver or chopper. The purpose of these tools is to be chopped into joints and other tough objects, such as the denser squash varieties. The angle of sharpening would be larger than for knives doing slicing as the primary job. My grandmother's chopping bowl, with ulu-type knife [known by our Italian neighbors as a mezzaluna] is still with me. It is not supeer sharp, as the movement is more of a vertical chop than a slicing movement. By the same token, don't let them actually get dull or chipped. |
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09 Nov 06 - 12:08 PM (#1880283) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rapparee Ah, but for slicing I want 'em sharp. Also, there's a difference in sharpness needed for combat and cooking and butchering. I use my ulu with a rocking motion, and it does a wonderful job of slicing. A good design -- an elegant solution. Yes, it can also be used for chopping, but I don't use it that way by personal choice. |
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10 Nov 06 - 01:28 AM (#1880937) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rowan Having read through the thread I thought I'd put in a couple of comments myself. Most of JohnInKansas' stuff is, in my experience 'spot on' except where I don't know the brands. Even so, here goes. The very sharpest blades are not made of steel of any type. If you look at an edge through a microscope (as I do when dealing with residue analysis and use wear) you'll always find that the finest edge on a steel blade is serrated. This is why even scalpel blade cuts leave scars. Glass (not often used for kitchen knives, true) is about the only material that forms a blade with no serrations. Which is why microtome knives for electron microscopy sections are made of glass. Although not common, knapped blades from obsidian have been used for eye surgery and have been shown to leave less scarring than steel scalpel blades. Such arcane considerations aside, commercial kitchens, domestic kitchens and wilderness butchering all impose different demands on both the tools and the users. I've used a cheap stainless cook's knife for the last 40 years now and its blade is still straight and sharp enough to effortlessly slice through overripe tomatoes at 1/8" intervals. My mother kept all knves in the same drawer; even the 'sharp' ones were blunt and I vowed, when I moved out, that I would keep my own knives sharp. I don't use a dishwasher; each knife is washed separately, rinsed hot and then wiped separately and stored vertically in a thing I made to hang out of sight on the back of a cupboard door. I won't use anything other than a timber cutting board and I prefer my kids to acquire necessaery immunities the old fashioned way. When I ran school camps I got myself a couple of heavier carbon steel knives for more frequent duties and later added them to the rack. But although they required more care and teaching they were still the goods. When I was at Kakadu, I was involved with the local Aboriginal community, investigating bush tucker, some of which was feral buffalo. ANPWS ran a workshop on identifying TB as part of the BTec programme and the "pet meaters' (as the guys who hung out of chopper doors and shot buffalo for the pet meat trade were called) ran classes on how to use knives. Because the meat might be contaminated with TB, utensils had to be treated with bacteriocides between uses. So, instead of using oils on sharpening stones, they used bacteriocidal detergent and washed stones, knives and stells in buckets of the stuff. This was where I learned that stones are used for sharpening while steels and strops (not used here) are used for reshaping (and thus retaining) the edge. All this was done out in the scrub so the techniques were different and interesting. Gotta go, daughters are getting restless. Cheers, Rowan |
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10 Nov 06 - 02:16 AM (#1880957) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rowan Now that one duty of the partental taxi service is out of the way I can put in some more. My first sharp knife had a very ordinary handle but it worked; it was a plasticised type of timber but a bith short for me. That was the main reason I got the heavier knives when I started running camps; the handles were much better suited, with full tangs through the timber panels. The pet meaters, though, wouldn't countenance anything other than plastic handles, so there were no crevices into which the detergent couldn't get. These handles were textured so that, no matter how wet and slippery with blood & guts, water or detergent, your grip was secure. My experience is that the knife can be of only reasonable quality but will do well if you care for it. A really good knife that is given only 'ordinary' care will go the way of all flesh very quickly. One trouble I have is getting good quality paring knives with good blades and handles. Most are so easily thrown out with the kitchen scraps (my ex) that many places in the bush don't stock them because, keeping the likelihood of such a fate in mind, the expense puts customers off and the retailers respond only to high demand and thus don't stock them. Bit of a circle actually. Cheers, Rowan Enough from me |
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10 Nov 06 - 10:57 AM (#1882217) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: mack/misophist A master machinist once told me that, in theory at least, phosphor bronze will take a sharper edge than any other metal. For what it's worth. |
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10 Nov 06 - 12:46 PM (#1882335) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas m/m - A fairly recent "historyical revision" holds that the end of the "bronze age" and transition to the "iron age" was not because iron is a better material than bronze. With the materials and processing capabilities of the time of the transition, bronze was in fact a much superior material, and remained so until very modern times. Bronze, even of that time, doesn't rust. Iron and even much later mild steel rusts quickly and even modern "high carbon" steels of many kinds are prone to short life. Bronze can be "hardened" simply by hammering at room temperature, and reaches hardness levels unattainable by the simple irons of early times, which must be heated to high temperatures to be hammmered without cracking, quenched to be hardened, and then tempered to avoid being extremely brittle. The simplistic explanation is simply that "they ran out of bronze" and were forced to substitute an inferior material. The real explanation is that political disruptions made bronze inaccessible to most of the world population of that time, and a "cheap substitute" had to be developed. Eventually the substitute was worked into something fairly useful, but it did take quite a while. Anyone who doubts what can be achieved in terms of strength and hardness with bronze might like to try cutting a scrap off a modern cymbal. My son had one that developed a few small cracks (after a lot of abuse), and I thought that drilling a few "stop" holes to prevent the cracks from growing might be a good idea. After burning the entire cutting end off of about three tungsten carbide (the best available) bits, I gave it up without ever making a complete hole. For incredibly sharp tools, I'm told that freshly knapped flint is superior to any modern steel. One surgeon who actually tested using "flint scalpels" (made for him by a friend who was a "re-enactor") was so impressed he attempted to learn how to make them, but conceded he'd never be able to learn the stone age skill needed to make them consitently. John |
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12 Nov 06 - 04:37 PM (#1884091) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rowan JiK wrote "For incredibly sharp tools, I'm told that freshly knapped flint is superior to any modern steel. One surgeon who actually tested using "flint scalpels" (made for him by a friend who was a "re-enactor") was so impressed he attempted to learn how to make them, but conceded he'd never be able to learn the stone age skill needed to make them consitently." When I was studying archaeology 20-odd years ago I saw a film clip of an American Indian knapping flint to make various stone implements; the clip might have already been about 15 years old. Whether he was a "Re-enactor" depends on your definitions I suppose but he was quite elderly at the time and very good. Certainly he was reported to have later required open-heart surgery and made a set of blades for the surgeon to use during the surgery, after sterilisation (of the blades, silly). The surgeon was reported to have been quite impressed. The eye surgery I mentioned was a later event using obsidian (volcanic glass) blades made by an archaeologist who was researching stone-tool technology. I'm not sure of the exact details (it was a long time ago) and I suspect the surgery may not have been on a person, as it seems to have been done to check whether the obsidian edge performed as well as, or better than, the usual steel scalpels. Flint is silicified with extremely fine grain and obsidian is glass (silica) with no grain but they're extremely sharp. When teaching in the northern suburbs of Melbourne (where the 'uniform' of the time included hair spikes with orange and blue hair gel) I got a friend of mine to do a demonstration of flint knapping the way Australian Aboriginal people had done it. The students were warned of the sharpness but were disbelieving until they experimented. Bandaids were always on hand. Fired fine-grained ceramics are similar to flint. When the Overland Telegraph (Darwin - Adelaide) was connected through Alice Springs in 1872, the linesmen had much trouble with Aboriginals along its whole length pinching the insulators to use to make blades and other implements. The problem disappeared when small piles of broken insulators were left at the bases of the poles along the line for them to use. Cheers, Rowan |
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12 Nov 06 - 09:25 PM (#1884329) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas Rowan Not a matter of sharpness exactly, but I keep a tub full of scrap bits of window glass in the corner of the garage. Grandpappy showed me decades ago that a fresh-cracked piece is the best possible scraper for getting the splinters off a hoe handle. Much faster than sandpaper, even with a power sander, and less damaging to the wood. John |
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12 Nov 06 - 10:25 PM (#1884355) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: NH Dave One of our local start-up companies in the business of making plasma jets, that "burned" atomic neon in a plasma hot enough to melt granite and brick, used to spray a tungsten carbide coating on one side of a cheap Woolie's paring or carving knife, and present these as gifts for the visiting folks to take home to their wives, they also were given a brick with their name burned into it for themselves. The idea as I recall, was that the stainless steel would wear away, leaving the incredibly sharp, thin layer of tungsten carbide, which did the cutting. My experience in getting good cutlery is to shop where the cooks shop, at kitchen supply stores. The material is first rate, although the appearance may not be up to something you might buy at a local shop, but it won't cost as much either, as it was made for use, and not show. At one time when I was thinking of selling a line of consumer cutlery, I discovered I could find the same gear at a commercial store for half the price, as neither the fancy finish nor the salesman's and management's commissions had to be paid. Dave |
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21 Nov 06 - 05:01 PM (#1890217) Subject: RE: Chuppa Knife From: bnot I too was looking for a set of Chuppa knives. I bought this one knife, back in 1980 at a grocery store, and its still sharp! No rust or anything! Did many searches, many times, and finally got a number in TN, called it, and it'd been changed to a number in Florence AL. For the guest that posted looking for Chuppa knives, the phone number is 256-767-5119. They are in Florence AL, USA. They are going to send me a catalogue. Seems their webisite isn't up yet. No wonder I couldn't find didly about them on the net! |
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21 Nov 06 - 05:10 PM (#1890229) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rowan JiK, the way you use your tub of glass fragments sounds like you're using them the way indigenous Australians used a "tula". And you're right about the finish. Cheers, Rowan |
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21 Nov 06 - 06:10 PM (#1890270) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas Rowan - Unfortunately, I don't break enough windows to keep my glass stock up to date very well. Most of my current remnants probably come from picture frames, but they're pretty much the same. I just use a cheap "glass cutter" - wheel type - to score a small piece, twist to snap it off, and then drag it across the wood. It cuts quite cleanly, in small even amounts, without lifting the grain adjacent to the cut. I've got a set of steel "luthiery scrapers" with modified shapes for gouging out shapes, and they're a little handier for some convex shaping; but they're not nearly as much fun to use (i.e. don't work as well) as fresh glass - when you've got a big enough piece of glass to get the shape right for the task. Chuppa: They used to advertise "the sharpest knives you can buy." They weren't, although they were good enough to use out of the box. (Of course I sharpen X-Acto blades before using them too.) The Chuppa knives will take a pretty good edge, and retain the edge reasonably well. The blades seem to be a little harder than I really prefer, which makes it more work to get the edge you'd really like. The cast-on aluminum handles are of course pretty much indestructible. I have one Chuppa inherited from my mother that probably was new in about 1943 (a free-gimme from the corner grocery), and they've changed very little. The paring knife seems to get a slightly larger handle now, and some of the larger ones - the last I picked up - have a bit "flatter" grip. One of the "weak points" with Chuppa was a very limited selection of sizes and shapes, at least as shown on the web site they had a few years ago. It would be interesting to hear if their new catalog has expanded the selection, although I'm pretty well stocked with what I need (and some I don't really need) right now. John |
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21 Nov 06 - 06:24 PM (#1890281) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: John MacKenzie Skarsten Scrapers do the same job as the glass, with the added benefit of being able to be sharpened. Giok |
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21 Nov 06 - 09:02 PM (#1890398) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rowan JiK Our local knapper is quite fond of using empty champagne bottles as a source of glass for knapping. It's thicker than most plate glass and thus easier to control. Giok Any knapper (even me, and I'm no great shakes) can resharpen almost any stone (or glass) implement by reshaping the edge with some pressure flaking. The "retouch" is the main diagnostic feature that tells an archaeologist that the shape of the putative "implement" has been made as a tool rather than been made by accident, such as "grader flakes". And you can make one for yourself anywhere in the bush that you can find nice pits of rock. But they don't have the nice built-on handles of your Skarsten Scrapers, agreed. Cheers, Rowan |
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22 Nov 06 - 01:34 AM (#1890487) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas Giok - I've got a fistful of scrapers very similar to your Skarsten, and can disagree (mildly) on the "do the same job." Also, it's quite easy to sharpen your bit of glass. You just break a quarter inch off the end and you have a new sharp edge. Or with window glass, just whack it against the nearest hard object, and you've got lots of new sharp edges. There are some tasks where a good handle is helpful, and others where one needs a shaped blade and a "built tool" is preferable. I'll use my hunk of window glass for many of the rest. I'll even concede that I fairly often just flip the switch on the power sander when the glass would work better, but that's just because I'm lazy. Rowan - With thin sheet glass knapping isn't really needed. I probably should break a couple of bottles and get me some thicker chunks to give that a try. As a scraper for smoothing things, a fairly long straight or gently curved edge is best, and knapping tends to produce short - but not straight - cutting edges. A knapped edge strikes me as more suitable for a knife or gouge(?). Some "plate glass" may present another problem for the knapper. Most "modern" commercial plate sold here is 1tempered, and if you release the surface stress I'm told it sort of "explodes" like the auto windshield stuff. 1 At least that's the story I got from the supplier when I replaced a broken top pane on LiK's 1920s drug store display case (family heirloom). He debated whether I could take surface scratches out of the other pane, but eventually conceded that it was probably from the "pre-tempering" era and wouldn't blow up on me. (The abrasives that he and several others recommended wouldn't touch the old stuff, so I'll probably never know whether that was safe to do.) John |
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22 Nov 06 - 04:42 AM (#1890538) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas At Dig uncovers ancient Peruvian knives archaeologists report the first Pre-Incan ceremonial knives "excavated scientifically" so that their provenance can be associated with other artifacts found at the site and accurate dating and relationship to a specific society can be determined. All previous such knives were obtained from grave robbers, sometimes indirectly, with no accurate supporting information. A picture of a 14" ceremonial knife is included at the web page. It's reported as being of "copper alloy" but with little other detail. It looks a little like an ulu with a very long handle(?) - but they call it a "tumi." Are any of our people using one like that? John |
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22 Nov 06 - 10:40 AM (#1890725) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: EBarnacle Atlanta Cutlery used to sell bronze-bladed knives. I have not looked at their catalog lately but it is worth the trip, just for the variety. It is getting harder and harder to get good blades for make your own knives. |
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22 Nov 06 - 03:02 PM (#1890998) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas Lots of amateurs who think they'll make their own "special" try using an old file. These are generally "glass hard" and very difficult to temper so they're not brittle, and once you expose fresh surface they usually rust quickly. Worn out power saw blades make a fairly decent blade for an amateur job, and "gunsmith temper" is often good enough. After a quench harden, you lay the blade in a small pool of engine oil, light the oil and let it burn off. Flame temperature is about right, without forced air, to temper-anneal small "spring-steel" objects below "brittle" stage, and may be "close enough" for a home made blade. (Do this outside - it smokes a lot.) For a pro, a "minimum buy" from a metal supplier probably would keep you well supplied for a decade or so, unless you're into serious volume. Choosing what specific material to buy for the next few years can be tough though. Finding what you want (or something close) at a salvage or end-lot seller may be even tougher. I'd usually check The Yard first; but it's local for me and I can wander in and poke around. They have lots of stuff that's not in the catalog. John |
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22 Nov 06 - 03:54 PM (#1891032) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Rowan JiK The substances your advisers recommended for using on glass may have been best employed for polishing it rather than removing scratches. Did they mention toothpaste? The older toothpastes usually included kieselguhr ("diatomaceous earth") which is the siliceous skellies of diatoms and about the finest abrasive easily available. The advice about cleaning your teeth vigourously every time you eat something led many to get too enthusiastic with the abrasive toothpastes; this wore away the enamel, which is why most toothpastes these days are gels without the abrasive. Cheers, Rowan |
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22 Nov 06 - 04:49 PM (#1891086) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas The recommended material was Cerium Oxide, which I got from a local lapidary shop. As used in lapidary it would probably most often be mixed with a bit of water to make a slurry and stones would be tumbled (for hours or days or weeks). I spent quite a few hours with it, but with a large flat surface like I had it was difficult to get very aggressive without flinging the slurry around the living room (i.e with big power tools). Concentrating on small specific areas, I wasn't able to detect any effect on the glass from about 20 hours of aggressive working on one 3 or 4 inch square area. It likely was not a bad choice for a polishing agent; but the "project" was too large for my tools, available workspace, and energy. It might have worked better placed between two pieces of glass under moderate load (to get higher, even, contact pressure) as used in telescope mirror finishing; but another piece of "similar glass" would have been another $125 and wouldn't have needed "finishing" to be used as a replacement. It was an experiment to satisfy my curiosity. Anyway, I've got a sufficient quantity of the stuff if I ever do decide to grind my own telescope. I'd likely set up machinery for that. John |
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22 Nov 06 - 07:18 PM (#1891232) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: The Fooles Troupe If your local council mows grass. here's tip. One Aussie guy I know had an endless source of old blades ... |
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22 Nov 06 - 08:55 PM (#1891314) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Leadfingers I'll look sharp and get another 100 !! |
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22 Nov 06 - 11:42 PM (#1891381) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas Small problem Leadfingers: Since the last "fix" at mudcat, most of the "post counts" are not correct. Your "another 100" is actually the 121st post in this thread, even though the "count" shows it as #100. The actual 100th post (including the opening one) was: EBarnacle 09 Nov 06 - 11:22 AM Do you feel at all compromised? John |
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23 Nov 06 - 04:11 AM (#1891460) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: Joe Offer Almost fifteen years ago, I bought a couple of three-dollar knives at Albertson's supermarket. They're marked "Ultra Sharp Surgical Stainless U.S.A." Best darn knives I've ever had. I sure wish I could find out where to buy some more. Googling Ultra Sharp Surgical Stainless brings up medical equipment, not kitchen knives. I read somewhere that Ginzo knives are supposed ot be very good, even though they're cheap. Well, I've had several Ginzo-type knives, and I end up cutting myself on every one of them. They're sharp, but they stick in whatever I'm cutting, and I can't control them to protect my own safety. Somebody abocve said that most cheap knives are right-handed. Maybe that's my problem, that I'm left-handed. Maybe thse "Ultra Sharp" knives happen to be left-handed, and that's why they work well for me. I also have a couple of heavy, very expensive knives that I bought at thrift stores. They work very well, too. I used to do a lot of cooking for large groups, so knives are important to me. I've cooked cioppino for as many as 450 people - that's a challenge. -Joe- |
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23 Nov 06 - 06:06 AM (#1891523) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: JohnInKansas Joe - Just a couple of days ago I was at Sam's Warehouse Store and they had a guy giving away a free "Ultra Sharp Surgical Steel Paring Knife" to anyone who'd listen to his schpiel about the other crap he was pushing. I listened long enough to get a look at the paring knives and decided they were'nt anything I needed, and the rest of the junk was "late night TV gottagetitnow" kinda junk so I didn't wait around to get one. He was passing out "larger packages" to some other people who listened, but I found several of them discarded in the pork chop bin a little later. I guess the "gifted recipients" weren't impressed enough to take them through the checkout line. The name was the same - or very similar, but I wouldn't guess that the knives he was giving away were anything one would rave much about. (rant maybe?). Sorry I didn't get a name for the "company." I'll see if the guy is still around when I make my "after payday" grocery run - if I remember by then. John |
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23 Nov 06 - 01:59 PM (#1891903) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST,Ancient Briton I hope that this isn't deviating too far from the original post: I've used edged steel tools in wood work and butchering and have found the following: my best ever wood chisel was made in China and cost about £1 ($1.50) the best edge for wood turning tools comes straight from the grindstone the best edge for carving hardwoods like lime is polished on a leather strop Victorinox stainless butchers knives are just ok. My best meat knife is a Taylor's "eye" brand Sheffield knife. Knives which are used for cutting all day long I find best with a fairly big angle at the edge - probably not razor sharp, but more likely to stay longer in the "useable" envelope. For the kind of work I specialised in (incisions and removal of lymphatic tissue) the condition of the knife point was particularly important. My best knives of all are surgical ones - retired from medical service in about 1930 by the look of them, and capable of taking a fabulous edge. The big one's blade is about 12" long and hollow ground like a razor. The smaller is about 5" long and far heavier. |
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02 Dec 06 - 11:59 AM (#1898349) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST,Oz. Ha! Went to Kelham Island today - Sat, Dec2nd 2006. Richardson's don't have a clearout, this year, they're putting their seconds on the Web, apparently. I'm very disappointed, as I bought some great stuff last year, and had been looking forward to today for some time, as I wanted to buy some knives a s presents, and to fill some gaps in my Sabatier collection. For anyone in the area, there'sa lad has a stall on the Oldcotes Flea Market, most Sundays, selling off seconds & surplus at excellent prices - Google +Oldcotes +Car Boot. All the Best, Oz. |
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03 Dec 06 - 11:56 AM (#1898869) Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives From: GUEST,Shimrod One of the best cutting implements I ever bought was a small cleaver - not a knife. I bought it on the recommendation of the TV chef, Ken Hom. I bought it from the UK store 'Boots' and it has the name 'Ken Hom' engraved on the blade - for this reason I call it, "Ken Hom's Magnificent Chopper". It's great for cutting both vegetables (not spherical ones like onions or tomatoes, though) and meat. The blade is not particularly sharp (hence less risk of cutting oneself). Although you might expect that you have to strike down with it - this is not the case. All you have to do is sort of press it into the foodstuff whilst drawing it towards you - the weight of the blade does the rest. Once the foodstuffs are chopped you can scoop them up with the flat of the blade. You can also use the flat of the blade for crushing garlic cloves. All in all a very useful implement. |