|
14 Dec 04 - 01:56 PM (#1356815) Subject: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: GUEST From today's Reuters Health Online: Heart attack deaths spike over the holidays The article says this phenomenon is increasing over time, and therefore worsening. When you combine this information with what we know about holiday depression, holiday suicide attempts & successes, the actual health of the nation isn't looking too good at the holidays. A study also came out today on Employment Related Deadline Pressure Raises Heart Attack Risk. Neither study probably surpises most of us. But it does beg the question, so why do we needlessly keep exposing ourselves to these stresses? I mean, nobody holds a gun to our heads and screams: Celebrate and Be Merry!!! Or fires you for missing arbitrary deadlines at work. We ain't talking brain surgery here folks. It's the holidays. Just goes to show what a vice grip the pressure from peers to conform is, I'd say. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 02:02 PM (#1356821) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Wesley S So what's the solution ? |
|
14 Dec 04 - 02:09 PM (#1356828) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: GUEST Ignore the holidays, and take a nice long winter's break from work and your family instead. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 02:11 PM (#1356832) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: SINSULL The cats peed on my Christmas lights...guess I won't be killing myself decorating this year. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 02:15 PM (#1356836) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: GUEST Actually Sinsull, that's the point I think. Every adult is free to make any choice they want about the holidays. I haven't decorated the house in years. It's a damn lot of work making holiday magic, and it is almost always women who do the thankless task of cleaning it all up when it's over besides. And toward what end? Why wait for Xmas or NY to celebrate with people you love to be with? Why not do it at some other time of the year, create your own traditions, and save yourself a lot of time, energy, money, hassle, and stress, and do it your way, at your convenience, doing what YOU love to do, rather than what the season REQUIRES. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 02:16 PM (#1356839) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Blissfully Ignorant I hate Christmas... this year, i'm sending out all the presents and then hibernating until Hogmanay. I don't see why i should be forced to celebrate, i'm not even a Christian...bah, humbug.... |
|
14 Dec 04 - 02:37 PM (#1356851) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: SINSULL I would rather vacuum tinsel than clean cat pee. I live alone but always have a live Christmas tree just for me. I love looking at years of ornaments - some 100 years old. I love the smell of the pine and cookies baking. I love Christmas carols. Hate the holiday gimmees though and the crass commercialism associated with it. Every Christmas I worry about the child or old lady who will get nothing and worse expects nothing. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 02:51 PM (#1356863) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: WFDU - Ron Olesko If you let the pressures get to you it is no wonder that you won't enjoy the holiday. If you spend your time worrying about the commercialism and feel pressure to decorate, bake cookies or buy tons of gifts - then you are celebrating for the wrong reasons. Sinsull made a good point about the items that appeals to Sinsull. If Sinsull loves the smell of pine and baking cookies, then that should be part of Sinsull's celebration. As guest pointed out, you make your own tradition. I enjoy decorating the house for the holidays. To me, it isn't a chore. I love putting up lights on my home, and putting up a wooden Santa Claus in my yard that my late uncle made over 50 years ago. Christmas isn't a humbug, people are. You make of it what you will. If you choose not to celebrate, that is fine. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 03:07 PM (#1356875) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: GUEST I think the health statistics for the US are showing us a very different picture than the one you are painting though, Ron. If it were as simple as you suggest, I don't think we'd be seeing 40,000+ additional deaths each year from heart attacks at the holidays, or the spike in treatment for depression at the holidays. Those statistics aren't meaningless. In fact, I'd have to say if you are truly happy and whole every year, and don't admit to there ever being a downside or a negative or a dark side to holiday worship and celebration, I think you may well be in denial. For those who manage to get to through the holiday after holiday unscathed, I wonder how connected to the real world they are. I personally don't know anyone who ISN'T stressed at the holidays. No one. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 03:16 PM (#1356886) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Once Famous I don't believe that it's entirely about stress, but more about what people do to themselves in an abusive way: such as drink like fish eat like pigs There is so much excess of this during the holidays that I witness that this coupled with the stress puts way too much strain on a heart. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 03:39 PM (#1356907) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Jerry Rasmussen Man, I loves Christmas! People probably have more heart attacks while having sex. Jerry |
|
14 Dec 04 - 03:46 PM (#1356913) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Guest, why do you have to accuse someone who enjoys the holiday and deals with the pressure to be "in denial"? Isn't it possible that some of us can adjust and function in the modern world? I never denied that there isn't pressure, but it goes back to the individual and how they choose to deal with it. The "downside" or "darkside" to the holiday is purely in individual response. You can look at the pressures and complain about it, or you can deal with and survive. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 03:54 PM (#1356919) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Good point Jerry! With all the office Christmas parties, there are millions of additional opportunities!! Additionally, there is snow this time of year. Another leading cause of heart attacks. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 03:56 PM (#1356921) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Peace "People probably have more heart attacks while having sex." I would love to find out. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 03:57 PM (#1356922) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: GUEST,Hot Carl I worry about getting a heart attack when my roids flare up. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 05:09 PM (#1356971) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Jerry Rasmussen Do they check to find out whether Christmas was the cause of the heart attack. What about all those people who have heart attacks on May 11th? I think I'm going to stay in bed on May 11th this year. Jerry |
|
14 Dec 04 - 05:13 PM (#1356976) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Blissfully Ignorant A heart attack whilst having sex? Man, that's a good way to go... |
|
14 Dec 04 - 05:19 PM (#1356985) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Legend has it that was the way John Garfield went. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 05:20 PM (#1356988) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: GUEST Fellas, don't shoot the messenger here. The article says they examined death certificates of 53 million Americans who died from 1973 to 2001. That's pretty comprehensive. The article also says, the spike isn't just related to heart disease, but all causes of death. It also says the exact reason for the increased number of deaths at the holidays is unknown, but they think it MAY be related to people delaying getting medical attention during the holidays. The article also said: "Overall, there were "distinct spikes" in both heart- and nonheart-related deaths around Christmas and New Year's..." "...the number of deaths occurring around the holidays "gradually increased" during the 26-year study period..." "Deaths from causes unrelated to heart conditions were also more common on these three days, which Phillips described as "the most popular days of the year to die." and finally: "The reason for the holiday-related spike in deaths could not be explained by factors such as respiratory diseases, holiday-associated emotional stress or changes in diet or alcohol drinking, study findings indicate." Y'all didn't read the article, did ya? Ron, when I said people who were celebrating were in denial, I was referring to the part of the article that said people delay seeking treatment at the holidays, thinking they won't be one of the statistics, it isn't that serious, must be something they ate or drank, that sort of thing. I had an uncle die the day after Xmas many, many years ago. He left his wife & 6 small kids behind. It doesn't just happen to somebody else. That is what I mean by people being in denial about the hazards of the holiday season. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 05:24 PM (#1356990) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Once Famous Uh, that's what I said above and I didn't bother to read the article. Common sense is all that's needed. |
|
14 Dec 04 - 05:54 PM (#1357008) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: mg nope. didn't read the article but I hope to later. But I bet at least a few of those deaths are people holding out until Christmas...mg |
|
14 Dec 04 - 10:06 PM (#1357153) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: mack/misophist Some people like Xmas, some don't. I don't think I've enjoyed an Xmas since I was 10 or 12. The real pain is having people demand that you enjoy it. They can be remarkably obnoxious, some of them. For those who like it, good for them. |
|
15 Dec 04 - 05:16 AM (#1357344) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Wolfgang 14 Dec 04 - 01:56 PM, I do not have the impression that you understand the implications of what you have read. You should be a bit more critical with what you read in popular publications before you sound a false alarm. With the researcher's name in the article and the university it is very easy to find his homepage with his major publications. A short look shows what his major hypothesis is: "Postponement of death until symbolically meaningful occasions". I have read out of interest now one of his original articles: His research shows (though not unequivocally) that there is a dip before such days and an increase shortly after ("will to live at least until..."). The mean number of deaths before and after days with special meaning to a person remains the same in comparison to the other months of the same time of the year. So, your remedy (ignoring the holiday season) just would have the consequence that the people that now die during the holidays will die some days earlier. It would decrease the average life expectancy by a few hours or days. One more artifact enters the data (and is discussed in the original literature): Live-support systems are usually not disconnected in the week(s) before a holiday ("Granny so much wanted to reach her ninetieth birthday, let us wait at least that long"). If you do not want to celebrate these days, 14 Dec 04 - 01:56 PM, that's fine and I wish you a nice time. But don't use a study you have not understood for a flimsy argumentation. Wolfgang |
|
15 Dec 04 - 09:16 AM (#1357538) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: GUEST OK folks, here is the the thing. The irony of my thread title obviously didn't work. The statement I made that people were in denial, was related to the researchers' suggestion it might be related to delays in seeking medical attention. So when you put it all together, if you deny to yourself the need for medical attention at the holidays, you may find another reason why you end up skipping the holiday cheer is you may well be dead. Sorry I failed to get my tongue in cheek, grim holiday humor across. I note no one has bothered to comment on the article I also linked to on workplace stresses. Perhaps that's why my humor wasn't getting across. Wolfgang, I too read other articles in addition to the single one I linked to about the study. But when the majority of people posting to the thread won't even read the article linked to from the popular publication, why would you think they can be engaged in a conversation on the level you are suggesting? This is a chat forum Wolfgang, not a debating society. |
|
15 Dec 04 - 09:44 AM (#1357557) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Guest, thanks for clearing that up. Often it is difficult to discern what is "tongue in cheek" around here! It is a valid point, people do put off medical attention because of the holidays. While mine is not life threatening, I put off some dental surgery until after New Year's because it would interfere with my holiday plans. I can easily see where someone would put off seeing a doctor during this time of year when normally they would rush into the office. Mack/misphoist said "The real pain is having people demand that you enjoy it. They can be remarkably obnoxious, some of them." There may be some truth to that, but I find the opposite is even more prevelant. As witnessed here on Mudcat, everyone seems so willing to share their depression. Why do we have at least two threads dealing with this issue on Mudcat? I understand clinical depression is a very serious and life threatening illness - I have a close friend who is going through some very difficult times. I know the need to "get things off your chest" and deal with the issues, but the illness effects more than the individual going through it. Family and friends who feel helpless suffer along with the individual and are made to feel guilty for enjoying the pleasures of the holiday. Celebrations like Christmas are based on communal celebrations that date back to ancient times. There were reasons to band together and honor the changing of the seasons or other events. Today, the reason many people look for others to join in the fun probably relates back to those ideals - people simply want to share the joys they are feeling and honestly express their love. The message may be lost. Sure, we can find crutches and blame commercialism and Hollywood for the issues we face at this time of year, but often we use that as an excuse. Guest talks about denial, perhaps someone who is suffering from depression is in denial that they need professional help? While it may be necessary to run away from a dysfunctional family, perhaps that is also a defense mechanism for people who can't deal with issues that most others would consider normal? You play with the cards you are dealt - sometimes you fold, but sometimes it pays to stay and go for the big pot. |
|
15 Dec 04 - 10:13 AM (#1357586) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Jerry Rasmussen Wolfgang: That is a fascinating hypothesis... that people try to hang on until they reach some desired goal. My Father's goal was to live the longest of anyone is his family, and he excercised resolutely and took better care of himself in his last years than he had at any point in his life. I used to kid him that he shouldn't relax, once he lived longer than anyone else in the family. He did live longer than his Father and all his brothers when he passed 92. He didn't make 93. I'm not saying that he died because he didn't have a goal to reach, because I don't know that to be true. But when people get old (not youngsters like us here in Mudcat) sometimes their will to live disappears. Some may want to live until their Great grandchild is born, or a grandchild gets married. Some want to live until a particular wedding Anniversary. The will to live is probably one of the most important requirements of a healthy life. Thanks for sharing that.. Jerry |
|
15 Dec 04 - 04:26 PM (#1357903) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Wolfgang Yes, it is fascinating, Jerry. And the the will to live also comes the feeling to be still needed which can make people live longer. Grandmas (I got it right this time!) live longer than same age women without grandchildren (more in this Mudcat thread) Wolfgang (who doesn't believe 15 Dec 04 - 09:16 AM's post) |
|
15 Dec 04 - 04:35 PM (#1357911) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Once Famous Ron I have to admit I was wondering the same thing about 2 threads currently running about depression. I think quite possibly it could be because everything that is portrayed about the holidays with family, friends, etc. is portrayed as mainstream middle class society. I think the majority of people here (not all, myself included) are quite honestly not at all mainstream. I get a feeling that for some, the holidays give some a certain type of reality jolt to that effect. They have no family per se. They haven't friends that have families either that promote that warm tree in the living room, cookies baking in the kitchen feeling. In fact, there are so many depressing types of threads at one time or another, you get to wonder if many folksingers are just a downer. |
|
15 Dec 04 - 07:42 PM (#1358106) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: mg I think there is something to that. People do gravitate somehow to truly depressing songs for example. And have very pessimistic views about a lot of things. Not that they are unfounded always, but there still are always good things to be found. I think there is a huge biological component to all this (as if it could be separated)...low fat diets..lack of sunlight (I think that 15 minutes a day could prevent rickets but I doubt it can prevent depression..try for an hour in the middle of the day without glasses and baring as much skin as possible..also take calcium pills and sit in the sun..likewise do that with older people..get them out in the sun)..lack of omega 3s...certain ethnic groups are supposed to eat fish or pretty much will have depression ...Scandinavian, Irish, Native American, Russian. See any theme here? These groups also tend to have alcoholism problems. I think if you took basically healthy people, sat them down for 8 hours and then home on a smelly bus for another hour, (flourescent lights in both places), and even did nothing else you would induce depression in a good percent of them..add financial stress, family stress, chores, raising children...too much. And remember, there used to be living situations where some went out to work and some stayed home and cooked and washed etc...I think the factor of coming home from a hard day and then having to cook is overlooked in all these discussions..so we grab what is handy..not good....lots to think about. mg |
|
15 Dec 04 - 11:02 PM (#1358236) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: GUEST,Ron Davies Sorry, Guest 9:16 AM. --Mudcat is a "a chat forum, not a debating society". That won't wash. Your implication--we're not interested in facts? You obviously haven't been monitoring, especially not during the recent unpleasantness (2004 campaign). Now, Wolfgang, though his first language isn't even English, has caught you in a wilful distortion of fact. It would behoove you to admit it----and to get a handle----lest you be swallowed up in the amorphous mass of "Guests" (ghosts) we are honored to have. Believe it or not, this "chat forum" is interested in accuracy, and not at all averse to exploding myths and pointing out misleading oversimplification--like yours. |
|
15 Dec 04 - 11:08 PM (#1358243) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: number 6 .... all that hydrogenated fats in the holiday food. |
|
16 Dec 04 - 08:41 AM (#1358577) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: GUEST Like I give a shit what Wolfgang or Ron Davies thinks? Sure. If that delusion makes you boys feel better... Can someone cite a source for this (apparently) widespread belief amongst some people here that the capitalist consumption holidays have deep roots in the ancient past of someone's ancestors? There hardly anything communal about this holiday in the US. OK, going to church. But other than that, this is a Norman Rockwell middle class delusion of happiness and gaiety and warm fuzzy feelings like the commercials on tv with the tree and the fireplace and the husband and wife and two beautiful usually white children with blond hair and blue eyes. In that sense Martin is correct. It is a nuclear family worshipping holiday as well. It is often described as being "all about family". So is it any surprise that people who don't center their lives around a nuclear family of origin or of their own, aren't that into this holiday? And I still say, there must be some societal factor that makes Christmas Day the deadliest day of the year for Americans. We just don't know what it is yet. I guess all of you want to discuss the one article on holiday deaths, and not the one on deaths related to workplace deadlines? I acutally found that one to be the more interesting of the two. |
|
16 Dec 04 - 09:46 AM (#1358639) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: WFDU - Ron Olesko sounds like somebody got some coal in their stocking. Guest, do your own homework. Look up Saturnalia festivals and histories of the origins of Christmas. Look up St. Nicholas. |
|
16 Dec 04 - 02:09 PM (#1358974) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: GUEST Oh Jaysus Ron, I read up on all that back in high school, for goodness sake. To equate Roman Saturnalia and the Victorian Anglophile/Norman Rockwell holiday we celebrate today is silly! All cultures have gift giving traditions. But to claim some descendancy from Roman times to contemporary Xmas is stretching it way too far! Same with the birth of Jesus theory most Xtians will cite you. Now historical evidence to support it, but hey--when has that stopped the retailers and advertisers? |
|
16 Dec 04 - 02:57 PM (#1359009) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: WFDU - Ron Olesko It is NOT silly Guest! If you read it in high school you should know better. Romans were giving gifts as part of Saturnalia and many of the traditions from that time have evolved to our celebrations today. You can deny history all you want, but it doesn't change. It is fine to have an opinion, but just because you do - it doesn't mean you are right! |
|
16 Dec 04 - 04:13 PM (#1359069) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Jerry Rasmussen I'm delusional!!!!!!!! HEHEHEHEHAHAHAHAHAH! Jerry |
|
16 Dec 04 - 07:50 PM (#1359205) Subject: RE: BS: Another reason to skip the holiday cheer From: Peace I will not be celebrating X-mas this year. But I feel glad for those who are. When people can find reasons to enjoy each other's company, that's great. Of late, I have been slipping into an event horizon and little seems light or right. But the season often does that to me. Has since I was a kid. I always did like to see folks having a good time despite not really understanding it myself. |