BS: A question for Mormons

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BS: A question for Mormons

05 Jan 05 - 11:31 PM (#1372718)
Subject: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Why is it that for many years "black" people could not join the LDS church? Also do you agree with the churches stance on that particular issue?

06 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM (#1372918)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: robomatic

I am no expert, but this is one site I found:

Black Mormons

06 Jan 05 - 01:43 PM (#1372935)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST

Ask, oops, thought you said morons. However that should still apply to Mormons.

06 Jan 05 - 02:00 PM (#1372955)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: pdq

This thread should be deleted. It can do nothing but degenerate into a hatefest.

06 Jan 05 - 02:02 PM (#1372960)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Cluin

Probably true, unfortunately.

06 Jan 05 - 02:03 PM (#1372961)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Big Mick

I don't think so, pdq. Could be a very enlightening discussion. It surely has the potential for nastiness, but we will watch for that.

Carry on.

Mick

06 Jan 05 - 02:08 PM (#1372968)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Les in Chorlton

So long as all the other religious people accept that they belive all kinds of stuff simply because they choose to, then a gentle exploration of old rascism could procede.

06 Jan 05 - 02:14 PM (#1372975)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Peace

Seen any Black Popes lately?

06 Jan 05 - 02:16 PM (#1372977)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: frogprince

Next question; how does the "Genesis Group" fit in the greater LDS church? Are they reasonably representative, or a fringy faction.

I can't imagine that the linked publication will do anything to help public relations; I take it as saying that discrimination based on race is not racism. Say what?

06 Jan 05 - 02:16 PM (#1372978)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Cluin

Not since the Borgias left town.

06 Jan 05 - 02:30 PM (#1373004)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,Blidn DRunk in Blind River

Holy flip. I seen t his thread and I thout: My flippin' moment has ARRIVED! People want the answers, and I've flippin' well got 'em, eh?

Then I take another look. Somebody didn't spell it right. "Morons" ain't got an "M" in the middle, eh?

Then I realize it's some wierd flippin' religion, instead.. Gimme a break, eh? Them people ain't got the answers! Trust me on this. They are flippin' as bad as Jeehovaw's Witnesses, eh? I know. I met some. I dropped my pants at the front door, mooned 'em, and they took off like a greased fart down a drainpipe!

Try it. It works. I told ya I got the answers.

- BDiBR

06 Jan 05 - 02:33 PM (#1373009)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Georgiansilver

For someone who says he/she has the answers....you sure make a good job of disguising the fact that you might have a brain!
Best wishes.

06 Jan 05 - 02:37 PM (#1373018)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Here is a link that states that blacks are decendants of Cain and therefore not allowed to hold the LDS priesthood. I would really like to hear a Mormons perspective on this, as my parents are Mormon and I was baptized in the LDS church when I was 8 and I had heard these same statements from my dad. Are all Mormons taught this? http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml

06 Jan 05 - 02:41 PM (#1373026)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Georgiansilver

We are all Gods children...black white yellow...etc etc
Best wishes.

06 Jan 05 - 02:59 PM (#1373052)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Peter K (Fionn)

Speak for yourself, Georgian.

I'd be interested to see the answers susu's looking for, but surely racism goes far beyohd the Mormons in the Christian community? (No black pope yet, brucie, but this is one area in which the Catholic church is more enlightened than some of the others.)

06 Jan 05 - 02:59 PM (#1373054)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: mack/misophist

As a non-Mormon, let me try to answer. The LDS Church always has a living prophet. It's built in. Because of this, doctrine can literally change over night. It changed when it became clear the US government wouldn't tolerate polygamy. For a number of reasons, it changed on the matter of blacks in the church. BTW, whites are now allowed in the Nation of Islam. Probably for the same reasons.

06 Jan 05 - 03:08 PM (#1373061)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: frogprince

The best thing to be said for the Mormon position on this, is that they have finally made a definite, official change in their position.
Before anyone starts a bunch of really hateful blasting at them: there was little or nothing unique to Mormonism in the racial doctrine in the article robomatic linked to. This is all stuff that was widespread in all kinds of fundamentalist churches for far, far too many decades. The glaring examples I personally heard from pulpits happened to be focused more on condemnation of interracial marriage. Guam, 1966: a protestant serviceman telling about his "ministry" to racially mixed couples; first, he explained, you had to get them to admit that they sinned in mixing the races in the first place. Chicago, aboout 1972; the pastor of Moody Memorial Church speaking on mixed marriage: there is an old Testament admonition against harnessing an oxen and a mule together; the significance is obvious; people of different races shouldn't marry. The problem isn't Mormonism; it's the combination of fundamentalism and the kinds of minds that have gravitated to fundamentalism. Even closer to the root, the problem is evil, and our ability to rationalize evil attitudes.

06 Jan 05 - 03:31 PM (#1373090)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Teresa

I believe churches, despite their attempts to communicate the spiritual, mainly reflect culture. Where there is racism, it is codified in the tenets of the organized church. Where there is homophobia, it is often the same. No particular evils, IMO; simply mirroring the taboos/beliefs in common society, sad as that is in itself.

TeresaTeresa

06 Jan 05 - 03:53 PM (#1373105)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Rapparee

Actually, there have been three Popes who are know to be black:

Pope St. Victor, whose reign was 189-199;
Pope St. Militiades, 311-314, and
Pope St. Gelasius I, 492-296.

Accoriding to Catholic Church tradition, St. Augustine of Hippo was also black. More than a few blacks have reached sainthood.

06 Jan 05 - 04:25 PM (#1373128)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Peace

Thanks for that, Rapaire. But none since Constantine took over.

06 Jan 05 - 04:45 PM (#1373148)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: PoppaGator

The link posted by robomatic way back in message #2 was quite informative. I have to admit I didn't read all of it, but the (large) part I did read was interesting.

I've always found Mormonism intriguing and kind of mysterious. It seems to be unique among religions in recognizing revelation & prophecy in such recent (even current) times. Not that I *believe* any of it ~ I just view their perspective as unique and interesting.

06 Jan 05 - 05:28 PM (#1373186)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Bill D

the basic answer seems to be that the LDS church has had some severe restrictions on what a 'Negro' could do within the church, but that these restriction have gradually eased over time.

this seems to show it has eased a LOT

and this explains a bit of the history and recent changes

1978 seems to be the pivotal year that the priesthood was opened to "Hamites"..(those presumed to be descended from Ham.)

06 Jan 05 - 06:33 PM (#1373272)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Okay, while I appreciate all the input regarding this topic, I am really interested in finding out if there are Mormons out there who were taught that blacks are descendants of Cain and that the reason for their skin color is because of the curse that befalls all of Cain's (and later Hams) descendants. This was what my dad told me when I was growing up, but now he vehemently denies ever saying that, which makes me think that the church has instructed their members to deny previous teachings as they change their doctrine. I want to see if anyone will actually admit to this teaching as I KNOW that I did not come up with this on my own, everything I heard about the LDS teachings I got from my dad. I however did not believe this even when he would say it and I did accuse him of being a bigot, therefore I know it was not from what other Mormons said because of the heated discussions we had when I was a teenager. Needless to say he even made comments about how blacks were not as intelligent as whites and how he did not trust any non-white doctors. I am happy to say that God intervened in my heart and I never thought that, which to me seems incredible since children often believe what their parents teach them.

06 Jan 05 - 07:10 PM (#1373323)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Amos

Here is one link of interest.

Here is a slightly more balanced report

Here is another discussion.

Here is a whole page of references.

A

06 Jan 05 - 08:13 PM (#1373427)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: BanjoRay

"No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood" (Brigham Young). The Mormon church would have had to change that rule after it was discovered that everyone comes from ancient African stock.
Ray

06 Jan 05 - 08:29 PM (#1373445)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: akenaton

Dont understand the difference between "negro blood" and Christs' "Arab./jewish blood" and brown skin colour...Ake

06 Jan 05 - 08:39 PM (#1373460)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Okay, I digress, the fact that no Mormon has come forward and stated their position on this leads me to believe that only two possible conclusions. 1) No Mormons go to the Mudcat website. 2) Any Mormons who read this realize that there are some serious flaws with this doctrine. The Mormons have a set of beliefs called the Articles of Faith in which the second one states, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." I was taught this from the time I was 4 years old, and was told that the meaning was that each person is accountable for what they do on this earth and that the sins of their father will not be held against them. (Which is how it should be.) This is a blatant contradiction of the policy that blacks are descendants of Cain and that their lineage therefore made them ineligible to participate in the priesthood. I just want someone who was taught this doctrine to come forth and explain to me how it came to pass that now blacks are allowed to do something they were not allowed to do prior to 1976. I mean if they are still people of color and they are "descendants of Cain" then why would God have a change of heart regarding their "curse"?

06 Jan 05 - 09:17 PM (#1373495)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,heric

(3) No one will take my bait.

06 Jan 05 - 09:36 PM (#1373502)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Bill D

susu..I know of one Mormon who occasionally posts here, though usually as 'guest' named Jon...He says there is very little 'folk' music interest in Utah, so I would not expect many to read here.

I ahve NO doubt that there still are some LDS members who still dwell on earlier statements of Brigham Young, as noted above and on a couple of the linked sites...but...so what? Racism will never be limited to one group, and anti-black teachings are obviously not 'mainstream' doctrine in LDS any longer. What are you trying to prove? If it is your view of faith and religion that is being somehow upset, it is for you to deal with.

There are contradictory positions in every faith...that's EVERY....(look at the Muslims who are told on the one hand to be peaceful, and on the other hand to kill 'infidels'...and Christians who have similar awkward positions.

Mormons have HAD some highly visible positions in the past...like plural marriage...and a few still believe in that, though it is not accepted by the elders any more.

06 Jan 05 - 10:11 PM (#1373536)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Rapparee

Living out here in Mormon country...where interracial adoption (and even interracial marriage) happens....

One of the tenets of the LDS church is that children are, originally, souls awaiting birth -- sort of like little cherubs flying around heaven until Big Daddy yells, "Hey! It's your turn!"

Thus, if you practice birth control you are depriving a soul of its right to be born, and thus many Mormon families have lots of kids. Also, all these souls have to have a chance at salvation, which means they should be brought within the LDS church. So, if there are lots of kids in, say, Africa or China or Korea, you do A Good And Right Thing if you adopt one (or more) of them and bring them up a good Mormon.

Diana Ross is a Mormon and is touring Mormon stakes with a singing group.

06 Jan 05 - 10:50 PM (#1373561)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Repaire, do you have a website to back up the Diana Ross claim? I would think that if she were Mormon then she would not have been arrested for DUI last year. Just a thought.

06 Jan 05 - 11:30 PM (#1373591)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Peace

Gladys Knight?

07 Jan 05 - 12:13 PM (#1373698)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

way to go Brucie!

07 Jan 05 - 12:55 PM (#1373753)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Rapparee

Gladys Knight and the Pips, Diana Ross and the Supremes, The Chenille Sisters, Lilith Fair.... Shucks, I still confuse Tom and Dick Smothers.

Yes, Gladys Knight.

Sorry.

07 Jan 05 - 01:20 PM (#1373785)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Bill D.in response to your question "what are you trying to prove?" I am NOT trying to prove anything. I merely asked a question that I was wondering about. Let me set the record straight since there seems to be some misconceptions going on. I was raised LDS, I am however no longer affiliated with the LDS church, for many reasons that are not related to this particular topic. It is just that I am still hearing evidence that suggests that this doctrine is still being accepted, that blacks are 'cursed' because they are descendants of Cain. I posed the question because I honestly want some feedback from people who are in the LDS church. My reasons for leaving the LDS church were many, but I do not bash them or tell them that they are wrong, I just do not agree with many of their teachings, as I have found too many inconsistencies in their doctrine as well as some other issues in the church that I do not care to go into. Yet if you look at all posts that I have made on Mudcat, then you will see that I am not posting a bunch of negative things in regards to the LDS church, I merely asked a question, that so far no LDS person has responded to. I did get a PM from someone who stated that her sister is LDS and that she (the sister) stated that the doctrine is still being taught.... below is a copy of the pm.

Since i am too chicken to get involved in a thread quite so highly charged with emotion.........my sister is Mormon, and has been since she was about 16. I remember HER telling me the same story when i was young, so no, you are not crazy. I do believe that it was doctrine at one time. Fortunately, you folks have contemporary prophets who update the rules from time to time.
Blessings be! It is Epiphany today!

07 Jan 05 - 01:36 PM (#1373806)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Peace

I confuse Monday and Tuesday.

07 Jan 05 - 02:09 PM (#1373855)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Hollowfox

Well, susu, as interesting as the 'Cat can be, it must be admitted that we do better with answering musical and folkloric questions than we do with a lot of other subjects. If I remember, I'll ask at the visitor center at Hill Cumorah the next time I'm up to visit my mother (she lives nearby). No promises, though. Have you tried asking at a Mormon church, or at the LDS website?

07 Jan 05 - 02:38 PM (#1373881)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Bill D

well, susu...beyond asking about your motivation, I (and others) have provided links.... and my analysis of the links that, when combined with PMs ought to give you just about what I said.. the attitude that concerns you is NOT mainstream teaching, but obviously still persists in some places or families.....as do many awkward teachings in many churches.

as to your comment "...as I have found too many inconsistencies in their doctrine as well as some other issues in the church..."....I have found many inconsistencies in religion in general, as well as some other issues....which cause ME to eschew religious practices altogether. I guess it's just a matter of the 'degree' of doubt for each person, hmmm?

07 Jan 05 - 04:00 PM (#1373945)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

this is off the subject, but what does 'tracing' a thread do?

07 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM (#1373956)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: MaineDog

I do not see how blacks could be descendents of Cain, because all those who survived the Flood were descendents of Noah, who was descended from Seth.
MD

07 Jan 05 - 05:12 PM (#1374016)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

07 Jan 05 - 05:13 PM (#1374019)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Through Ham (a name meaning black) the blood of the Canaanites was preserved through the flood, he having married Egyptus, a descendent of Cain.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/racism.shtml

07 Jan 05 - 05:26 PM (#1374026)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: frogprince

Good point, Teresa; I don't think the church originates this kind of negative stuff. It's just a personal tender point with me to see the church adopt it, and reinforce and perpetuate it by coming up with doctrinal and "scriptural" rational for it.

07 Jan 05 - 05:46 PM (#1374048)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Uncle_DaveO

Susu said:

the Diana Ross claim? I would think that if she were Mormon then she would not have been arrested for DUI last year.

Susu, there's a difference between "a Mormon" and "a good Mormon" or "an observant Mormon". Like the rest of us, they have their backsliders, their weak characters, and indeed their naysayers and reinterpreters.

If Diana Ross is a Mormon, I don't know which (if any) of those categories she may fit in.

Dave Oesterreich

07 Jan 05 - 06:39 PM (#1374107)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Repaire was confused he meant Gladys Knight.

07 Jan 05 - 07:41 PM (#1374160)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Bill D

re:"tracing a thread"...susu...if you 'trace' a thread, you will have that thread listed on your 'personal page', (where PMs arrive), and thus will be able to find it easier if it drops off the bottom here...it is a special feature of Mudcat for registered members.

07 Jan 05 - 09:50 PM (#1374269)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

cool thanx Bill

07 Jan 05 - 11:43 PM (#1374334)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Bill D

yep...neat stuff behind the scenes...

07 Jan 05 - 11:47 PM (#1374337)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

Uhmm...

Perhaps it is me...but that LDS mormon org site looks...well a bit shady...

http://www.lds.org/

That I know for a fact is the official site and another source I would think for answers to your questions and questions anybody else might have.

now...my perspective as a Mormon?

Well now...I can sit here and discuss this long as y'like. I can say nice pithy things like " God's time is different than man's time " and " being a prophet does not mean that you are immediately exempt from being human " and quite frankly blab on and on about the subject which I have personally heard discussed over and over again until it gives me a headache.

It's called looking for angles instead of angels.

For the sake of the record I classify the African-American-descendants-of Ham/Cain theories as " space doctrine " in other words it's believed by many folks within the church but it ain't set in the stone anywhere as gospel truth. I also believe there's more important things to tend to in this world than debating over why African-Americans were given priesthood authority in the Church at the time they were given it. Bottom line...they have the priesthood now as all men of the church do. They use it as all men of the church do. I imagine they're damn grateful and humbled to have it to perform blessings and ordinances as all men of the church are damn grateful and humbled to have it to perform blessings and ordinances. And it isn't going to be taken away from those who have it unless they become unworthy.

There will be people who read this thread who regardless of how I try to reason things out will still think it all just boils down to trying to justify a gentle sort of racism. There will be people who think just because I am Mormon/Christian/a moron/whatever that that immediately discredits anything and everything I say. Okay. You don't have to believe one damn word I say and I'm sure as hell not asking you to. Peace be with you then. Have a happy and prosperous life :)

Susu find an answer that seems satisfactory to you. Take your questions to God and pray about it. Read the Bible and the Book Of Mormon. Listen to General Conference. Do research. There's some suggestions that have worked with me regarding questions in my life and that may help you find your answers if indeed you seek them with sincere intent and honest curiosity.

Anyways sorry folks if the tone comes across as defensive or adamant...it's been a long stressful week and I ain't no saint regardless of the Latter Day title. So I'm entitled to go a little J. Golden Kimball-ish now and then :) so there...bleh :P

08 Jan 05 - 01:42 PM (#1374549)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

I want to say to all of the people who seriously responded to my question, thank you for your input, it has been most helpful. Pogo, I appreciate you being candid. As for those people who viewed this as an opprotunity to make fun of Mormons, all you did was prove that you are not that intelligent. I do not agree with the LDS church as well as several other religions, this does not however, mean that I should talk bad about them. The beauty of living in America as that we have the right not chose what religion we would like to belong to, if one at all. I realize that you also have the right to make fun of those people, but in this case it was unsolicited and therefore, I digress, makes you look like a fool. You might think about that before you go posting your opinions on a serious website. Take care all, and I will continue to keep tabs on this thread as I value all input. God Bless. Susu

11 Jan 05 - 09:28 AM (#1376532)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,Wolfgang

none since Constantine took over. (Brucie)

Gelasius mentioned by Rapaire came well after Constantine.

Wolfgang

11 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM (#1376752)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Joe Offer

Be careful about judging an organization from the Websites that purport to represent the organization. Many Websites seem to be run by extremists who have the zeal to do the work and spend the money to keep a Website going. As Pogo says, http://www.lds-mormon.com/ seems to be one of those zealot sites - this one a not-too-subtle anti-Mormon zealotry. The official site, http://www.lds.org/, seems to give a better representation.

I've taught religion to Catholic adults most of my life, and I have to spend a lot of time combatting the right-wing misinformation that gets posted on the Web and broadcast on radio and TV. The extremist Catholics seem to be funded by an unlimited amount of brewery money and Domino's Pizza.

I think that in most cases, if you have a large organization that has existed for over a century, most of the time it won't be as horrible as its detractors (or its zealots) make it out to be. Every organization has shortcomings and prejudices, but most aren't horrible. I think that applies to the LDS Church, to the Roman Catholics, the Boy Scouts - and possibly even to an extent to the Republican Party (although I reserve judgment on that last one). Most religious groups have racist ideas in their history - that was once part of the universal culture. Some have been slower to withdraw from the sins of the past, but that's the way people are.

I hate to be too quick to condemn anybody. I think accepting the faults of others and recognizing our own faults is an important part of tolerance.

-Joe Offer-

11 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM (#1376810)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: artbrooks

Good on yer, Joe

11 Jan 05 - 02:52 PM (#1376843)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Joe, Very insightful and artiulate message. Thanks

11 Jan 05 - 06:40 PM (#1377046)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Peter K (Fionn)

You're right, Joe, that prejudices were inbuilt in cultures even many centuries ago. For instance a significant and influential faction of first-century Christians who were hostile to their message being spread beyond the boundaries of Judaism. (According to some historians they came within a whisker of having their way.) However the readiness of religions to bend themselves to accommodate prevailing cultural norms is, in my view, a readiness to "blow with the wind" - tangible evidence that mankind makes gods and not vice versa.

Also I don't see any merit in the 100-years test. Christianity has been around for nearly 2,000 years and has been a root cause in some of the most appalling crimes the world has seen. You will say such crimes are the work of "bad apples" but in fact some have been institutional and plainly would not have happened had the church not existed.

11 Jan 05 - 08:22 PM (#1377104)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Rapparee

I think in those matter, Peter K., you really must seperate the teachings and actions of the founder of ANY religion from the teachings and actions of those of the church that came after. I hardly think that Yeshua of Nazareth, for example, would have approved of Pope Alexander VI or John XXII or the work of Torquemada -- or that of Mary, Queen of Scots, Henry VIII, John Wesley, or any of a number of others.

As a friend of mine once said about his Catholicism, "I don't mix up my church interfer with my religion."

11 Jan 05 - 08:44 PM (#1377122)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books

NOTE: DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU INTEND TO MOCK OR ABUSE ME AND/OR MY CHURCH. IF YOU CAN HOLD AN INTELLIGENT AND REASONABLE DISCUSSION, GO AHEAD.

Hi, I'm LDS and have only just noticed this thread.
For those people who are using this to make racist attacks against Mormons, shame on you, how is it acting any better? Does it feel good to mock and put down people of differing beliefs?

Now as to the Priesthood issue, there have been restrictions on it ever since it has been on the face of the earth. Sometimes, such as until the Chruch was restored, the ban was general on all men. At other times, the ban has been narrow. I do not know why it was lifted in 1978 but before that they could still be members of the church, that was never denied them. What's important, getting get it first or last, as long as you get it?
President Kimball was inspired to ask about it and he prayed in the Temple for weeks to receive an answer.
In 1978 the general ban was lifted, but a few select individuals recieved it as early as 1976.

Bruce R. McConkie in his 'Mormon Doctrine' from 1966 writes that Ham was cursed for marrying into the line of Cain, which had been forbidden since the murder of Abel. As a result of the curse, his descendants could not receive the Priesthood. Not a racist doctrine by any means, but one based on personal transgression. Ham knew of the ban and despite that went ahead with his marriage. His descendants can recieve it now, and retroactively, through Baptism for the Dead.

Susu, I don't know why your father changed his mind, but thats the reason for the ban.

Lots of Mormons have/are racists, but that's them, not any official doctrine. Besides, it fits in with the general mood of racism in the US until the 60s.

As Pogo suggests, read more of the LDS materials, and pray and ponder over them. That is the only way you will get a true answer. If it's not true you will know for certain, and if it is then what's to be afraid of.

Diana Ross is not now, nor has ever been LDS as far as I am aware. Gladys Knight on the other hand is, written a book too.

Peter K, how can you say that such things would never have happened if it werren't for religion? As long as wicked people are around such things will happen regardless of any religion. The religion was just the excuse, not the cause of it.

11 Jan 05 - 08:49 PM (#1377126)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books

Rapaire,

excellent point.

People who are true followers of Jesus the Christ would never act like the above mentioned.
If they act in that manner, then they are obviously not true followers for all their protestations.

11 Jan 05 - 10:42 PM (#1377204)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Rapparee

To further my earlier remarks regarding churches and religion, I'd like to direct attention to John D. Lee's book Mormonism unveiled, or life and confessions of John D. Lee (U. of New Mexico's Fierra Blanca Publications, 2001).

Lee, as you may or may not know, was executed for the Mountain Meadows massacre. In this book Lee states (in his last words before his execution):

I am a true believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ, I do not believe everything that is now being taught and practiced by Brigham Young. I do not care who hears it....I believe in the gosple that was taught in its purity by Joseph Smith, in former days.

Reading the book is quite interesting, as Lee was one of the "Danites" and had, at one time, eleven wives.

He also states, again in his last words

...there are thousands of people in this Church that are honorable and good hearted friends, and some are near to my heart.

So it seems in so many churches....

12 Jan 05 - 02:39 AM (#1377263)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Joe Offer

I think the lesson here is that you can't judge individuals by the organizations they're associated with. Organizations are screwy; and from the outside, they look even screwier. Many of us belong to imperfect organizations, and many good people choose to try to reform their organizations rather then abandoning them. Those organizations may be clubs, churches, political parties, or even families. Although the organization may have serious problems on some levels, we may have had wonderful experiences and relationships through our association with that organization. If the organization has flaws in its history or its leadership, must we abandon it along with all those experiences and relationships?

Sometimes it seems that we expect perfection from everybody but ourselves. It we'd turn the tables and expect perfection only from ourselves, this world would be a much nicer place.

I worked a lot with Mormons in the Boy Scouts. They were the ones you could always count on to sing out at campfires, to go along with the joke in skits, to help clean up after everything was over, and to hug kids who needed hugs. While certain racist beliefs may be part of their history and some vestiges of that may linger, Mormons also have a history of believing they should be responsible for the needs of their fellow human beings. I never saw a Mormon Scout volunteer show any discrimination against anyone.

-Joe Offer-

20 Jan 05 - 06:35 AM (#1383031)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST

I seem to remember reading that one of the reasons for the hostility to the Mormons in their early days (ie the days of Joseph Smith/Brigham Young) was their support for the ABOLITION OF SLAVERY. This may have been because Joseph Smith, their founder, came, I believe, from New York, where abolition was presumably stronger than support for slavery. If he had been born in the Deep South his opinions may have been different. The Mormons went west to Utah when they were "persecuted", rather than to the South, where presumably (if they held racist opinions) they would be more welcome (of course this may equally be due to the fact that at that time the west was less populated and territory was available).

Of course their support (at one time) for polygamy also was responsible for their unpopularity.

This doesn't of course preclude the later adoption of rules forbidding blacks to become Priests in the Mormon Church.

P.S. I am not a Mormon!

20 Jan 05 - 08:32 AM (#1383109)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pied Piper

FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU CHALANGE ANY OF MY IDEAS OR IMPUTE THAT I MAY BE WRONG OR SAY THAT MY SHIT STINKS JUST LIKE YOUR'S, I'LL RUN AWAY AND HIDE.
SO THERE!

Since when has Mormonism been a "race"?

PP

20 Jan 05 - 08:48 AM (#1383116)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: robomatic

Joe:
Very much appreciated your general comments above, and agree with 'em. People are people, a varied and cantankerous lot. Much has been done 'in the name of' religion that we wish wasn't.

20 Jan 05 - 09:24 AM (#1383136)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Did I miss something? Who said Mormonism IS a race?

21 Jan 05 - 11:32 AM (#1384380)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pied Piper

"For those people who are using this to make racist attacks against Mormons"

Weasel Books words

PP

21 Jan 05 - 12:33 PM (#1384449)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,Aidan.

21 Jan 05 - 12:57 PM (#1384471)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,Ranting Poof

Here is one for all you biggots. I'm gay, and so to, (and you might just have quessed this!) is my boyfriend, true he no longer attends his church but just as I am ethnically Roman Catholic, he too is ethnically LDS. One of his sisters in law is from Zimbabwe. She and his brother were married in the Church of later day saints. During the reception in the chapple they made a special announcement of who each member of the families were, and of the partners. Thay included me. I have never felt more welcome or accepted by any other christian church, and that includes my own RC. Further more there are and have been High Priests in the LDS who are black, and it is one of the fastest growing churches in Africa. Quite hard to have a growing church in Africa if all your priest have to be WASPs from Utah.

21 Jan 05 - 02:44 PM (#1384539)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Mark Ross

When the LDS church changed their doctrine and said that that black men could become priests, Utah Phillips suggested that the statue of the angel Moroni be replaced with one of Louis Armstrong.

Mark Ross

21 Jan 05 - 05:31 PM (#1384700)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: EagleWing

Akenaton said (way back on 6/1) 'Dont understand the difference between "negro blood" and Christs' "Arab./jewish blood" and brown skin colour...Ake'

But Mormon tracts tend to show Jesus as white, blond and blue eyed - at least the last ones I saw did.

Frank L.

21 Jan 05 - 05:49 PM (#1384709)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: EagleWing

Robomatic said "Much has been done 'in the name of' religion that we wish wasn't."

Much of what is done 'in the name of' religion is not necessarily "religious" in motivation. (N. Ireland is about Union with Britain v, United Ireland more than Protestant or Catholic for example).

Frank L.

21 Jan 05 - 07:51 PM (#1384802)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: annamill

Knowing close to nothing about Mormons other than they have lots of wives, I have a question.

So, are woman allowed to be high priests?? I figgered since we were talking about prejudice in this church, well, what about woman??

Does the doctrine state we are just chattel? or, do we woman have a voice also?

Love, Annamill (just thought I'd through in a new monkey wrench)

21 Jan 05 - 09:37 PM (#1384861)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

Lots of wives...hell no Annamill :)...that practice stopped a long time ago. There are a few weirdos up in the hills of Utah that still do that sort of thing...but they are NOT members of the church though they may call themselves Mormon. Anyone who does practice polygamy nowadays is excommunicated. PLEASE I beg you do not start into the polygamy thing...it's another subject I've heard discussed to death.

No women at this point in time hold the priesthood within the Church and this is our current prophet's statement on this subject

http://www.mormon.org/question/faq/category/answer/0,9777,1601-1-63-1,00.html.

as well as this about the role of women in the Church

http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1588-1,00.html

There are two categories of the priesthood within the church...the Aaronic Priesthood and the Melchezedick (sorry not sure if I spelled that right) Priesthood. Basically both give the authority to perform priesthood ordinances (a blessing for comfort, a blessing for healing, a father's blessing, christenings that sort of thing)

Now...(forewarning...this is just my personal thoughts on the matter it is by no means doctrine set in stone) I have no problem with this and I don't believe it to be an example of women being subjugated under the fist of men or anything. I also believe that it is not God saying " You'll never be allowed to hold the priesthood, frailer sex, so get back in the kitchen where you belong nyeah " There were prophetesses and priestesses in Biblical times and if God sees fit to grant women a priestesshood of their own then he'll ruddy well organize it on his own terms and in an acceptable time. Meantime I ain't hurting because I don't hold the priesthood. I know God will answers my prayers just as readily as he heeds the words of a priesthood blessing because the prayers of women and the priesthood of men are designed to work together. You will note that in many cultures there are powers and forces associated with both the male and female that are exclusive to those genders. That is the way I see the priesthood that is upon this earth at this time. Men hold it because it is a power that works through them but it also benefits both male and female.

We have a women's organization within the church called the Relief Society which I believe (I will have to check this to be sure) is supposed to be one of the oldest women's organizations in the United States if not the world. There is a great emphasis in the church on the importance of motherhood and family. Many LDS women when they are married opt to be stay at home moms and raise a dozen kids or more. These are individual choices made (ideally) after much pondering and praying between husband and wife. Finances and faith doubtless go hand in hand with such decisions. Women who work outside the home to support their families are not looked down upon.

Eagle Wing...that's individual artistic interpretation. From an artist's point of view I personally believe Jesus Christ while he was on this earth looked pretty much like anybody else from that area at the time. The Bible itself states he didn't stand out in a crowd. Now...what he looked like after he was resurrected? Shoot...I don't know. I wasn't around to see him :) But yeah...again this is just one mormon's opinion.

(BTW Rapaire I did get your PM I've been busy I'll try to answer back soon as I can)

21 Jan 05 - 10:00 PM (#1384878)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: annamill

Pogo, May I ask how head of your church, Mr., Rev., (please excuse my ignorance) Hinckley is chosen? Does he determine the doctrines of your church without benefit of other council, be it man or woman?

Does he have the authorization to undo previous Presidents doctrines, such as having more than one wife, or, allowing Blacks into the church.

This is merely curiosity as I am a stated non-believer. I hope you're not insulted by my questions.

Annamill

22 Jan 05 - 12:24 AM (#1384947)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

No...I really see no reason to take offense at genuine curiosity. But don't quote me on any of this :)

Gordon B. Hinckley commonly is referred to as the Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, President Hinckley or Brother Hinckley depending on who is doing the addressing I guess and how respectful you wish to be towards him.

The set-up is the Prophet, his two counselors which make up the First Presidency of the Church and they are over what is called the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who in turn are over the Quorum of the Seventy. Pretty much we follow the way the church was set up anciently. Jesus, his Twelve Apostles and so on down the line. In my own home church as in all LDS churches, the organization of the First Presidency is echoed in the leadership of the smallest church. You have the President or Bishop (either title is acceptable) who serves along with two counselors and there's many other callings (job titles you might say), clerk, Relief Society President etc. No one is paid to do any of these jobs like say a preacher in the Baptist or Methodist church would be and neither are they required to go through any kind of training or college. This goes right up to the Prophet himself. He isn't paid to be a prophet.

So far as the actual process of choosing the next Prophet goes I am a little vague on that but I'll see what I can find on it. However all callings in the Church are determined after much discussion, fasting and praying among those directly involved and the members also have a say in the process. To add, each prophet that has lead the Church is ultimately chosen by God and sustained by the members as a prophet for that particular time, he recieves revelations that reflects what is going on in the church and the world at that time and he serves for the rest of his life. It's kind of hard to explain spiritual matters in secular terms but I'm trying my best here.

Many doctrines of the church have already been set down for quite some time now. We do however believe that the heavens are not closed, that new revelation from God still goes on today. The prophet has the priesthood authority to recieve revelations from God as it benefits all men, not just members of the church. Many things that previous prophets have recieved by revelation has been put down as permanent doctrine (the Word of Wisdom for example and the Articles of Faith) and some served their purpose and are now footnotes in Church history to be pondered and studied.

Here's just the facts on the organization of the Church and whatnot to add to what I've said. I would suggest reading that as all this above again is all just from the point of view of me and I would not like to think I am telling something wrong here

http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,940-1,00.html

http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,842-1,00.html

22 Jan 05 - 06:28 AM (#1385054)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: EagleWing

Pogo said "Eagle Wing...that's individual artistic interpretation."

Not entirely true - the tract or booklet was an explanation of how certain tribes of Native Americans recognised Jesus because they had a prophecy of a white saviour. I haven't the leaflet handy at the moment but it definitely relied on a "white" Jesus.

Frank L.

22 Jan 05 - 12:40 PM (#1385280)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

Hm interesting. Without examinining the actual booklet, knowing how old it was, whether it was an official pamphlet endorsed by the church or by " well-meaning " members I'm afraid I really have no room to comment on the pamphlet itself.

So far as the " white bearded god " thing goes, you also have to consider that the word white itself has many different connotations. It can mean one of the Caucasian race, it can mean lighter-skinned, it can mean spiritually pure, it can actually be the color white. In the Book of Mormon as far as I can recall (and I may have to go back and read it again to be absolutely sure) there was no in-depth physical description of Jesus other than than he was clothed in a white robe and he bore the marks of the Crucifixion. Why? Because it wasn't so much about what he looked like physically as who he was. Currently the Prophet at the head of our church today does not say " Worship Jesus because he was blonde, blue-eyed and a white man " He says " Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, the Savior of the World "

But if you really want to study the whole " white bearded god " idea more, here is also a quote to consider, this from a book called " The World of The Book of Mormon " by Paul R. Cheesman. There is a whole section in there about that. Talking about the Incas it says "...they [the Incas] told their Spanish conquerors that they had obtained their traditions from their ancestors who in turn had been taught by a white, bearded god known as Viracocha, which means " white man. " Sarmiento de Gamboa, a Spanish writer of the sixteenth century wrote '...all agree that Viracocha was the creator of this people. They have a tradition that he was a man of medium height, white and dressed in a white robe...and that he carried a staff and book in his hands. ' (Gamboa, History of the Incas p.247) The book itself for me is quite informative and the writer appears to have documented his sources well. If it's not out of print I'd suggest you find it for further study as well as any of the others historical sources he cites if it is possible to find them. And of course I would recommend going to the source, the Book of Mormon itself and read 3rd Nephi which gives an account of Christ visiting the Americas.

For the record I'm not trying to convince you to believe anything. Converting people is one of the duties of the missionaries of the church. I'm not a missionary and I have not served a mission. I'm just saying " There's some information to study and you are welcome to come to your own conclusions "

Again...it's all one member's opinion

22 Jan 05 - 03:04 PM (#1385382)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: annamill

Pogo, thank you so much for understanding my curiosity and giving me such in-depth answers. I have no more questions for now. You certainly have enlightened me as to some of the basic ideals of your religion.

Love, Annamill

22 Jan 05 - 03:46 PM (#1385415)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: dianavan

From religious tolerance.org

"According to sociologist Amand L. Mauss, a president of the Mormon History Association, the Mormon movement's racist beliefs originated within Protestant denominations from which many Mormons converted. He said: "Every major Protestant denomination in history has taught that blacks are descendants of Cain and Ham." 1 These beliefs were repudiated in 1978 by the LDS. The church received a second major revelation from God at that time. LDS leaders announced that, for the first time, "all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color." Racism within the church was instantly terminated. Male African-Americans are now regarded as full members of the LDS. Women of all races are still excluded from ordination.

The community of Bountiful in B.C. is under investigation for racism and polygamy. It is a fundamentalist group of Mormons who still believe in the original teachings.

22 Jan 05 - 05:02 PM (#1385468)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

Annamill you are welcome :)

Dinavan I will make a point to go nowhere near Bountiful in the future O_O

22 Jan 05 - 06:01 PM (#1385515)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

Oh yeah...one last website in regards to the orginal remarks at the beginning of this thread.

http://www.blacklds.org/

someone from another community passed this on to me. I haven't looked through it completely and I present it as I have presented all the other information...it is for you all to study, ponder on and come to your own conclusions about. I hope someone finds it useful.

22 Jan 05 - 06:57 PM (#1385554)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,NH Dave

It was my understanding from another site that although the LDS faith used to deny blacks priesthood, every young male normally becomes a priest during his late teen years, they found that this lead to very tough going when they decided to try expanding into the African continent. Some time around this period senior members or THE senior member of the faith had a vision that denying priesthood to blacks was wrong, and they relaxed their former discrimination.

AFAIK, blacks suffer/enjoy no special treatment in the LDS faith now.

Dave

22 Jan 05 - 11:16 PM (#1385679)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

I find it really odd(?) or a peculiar coincidence that at the same time the country was being torn apart by racial divides (1960's, 1970's) the Mormon president was praying from an answer from God on whether or not it was OK for blacks to hold the priesthood.
The LDS church has always changed their doctrine to fit the times. Even today, their push to be accepted as a mainstream Christian religion, has affected the way they film their commercials and the way it is presented to the non LDS person. They hammer us all on the fact that they read the bible and believe in Jesus. OK. Even Satan believes in Jesus. Does that make him right in what he believes?
The one thing that I find to be particularly damning is the fact that Mormons believe that if you are a good mormon and make it to the celestial heaven then you will become a "god" of your own universe. The LDS doctrine of "As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man can become" is especially troubling to me if for nothing else than the fact that this is what the serpent told Adam and Eve before their fall from grace. He told them that if they ate of the fruit of the tree then they would be like God.
It's pretty sad that so many are following something so close to the truth that they will miss heaven by so far. Thank God that my wife saw the "light" and turned her back on the LDS church.

22 Jan 05 - 11:18 PM (#1385683)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

by the way....the above message was written by Susu's husband.....

23 Jan 05 - 02:00 AM (#1385750)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

*sigh*

Okay Susu's husband...I guess you have the God-given right to believe that.

I suppose I could counter it with my own opinions and remarks. But right now...I'm just really tired and it sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind about the LDS faith anyways so I don't think it'd really make a difference what I said.

Perhaps another time. I enjoy discussion of religion in general but I really don't believe in arguing endlessly to prove who's right and who's wrong. Please don't assume however that just because I am Mormon I am automatically out to corrupt the innocent and that I am a lost soul destined for hell. That is insulting to myself as an individual and insulting to what I very strongly believe to be true. Living my faith to the best of my ability has worked fine for me so far.

So go in peace then and I sincerely hope that whatever your beliefs are, that they will continue to sustain you throughout your life :)

23 Jan 05 - 03:29 AM (#1385807)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Joe Offer

Mr. Susu - you say, "The LDS church has always changed their doctrine to fit the times." I wish more people would bother to change their thinking to fit the times. Some people may call that wishy-washy, but it's what I call "growing."

As for "As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man can become." That sounds like the teaching of many Christian churches, that we will be one with God after death. Sounds pretty close to the teaching of Paul the apostle, too.

I suppose it's comforting at times to do verbal gymnastics and prove others wrong and yourself right, but what good does that do? I believe in tolerance.

I'm a Roman Catholic, and I suppose we're not particularly fashionable these days - so that makes me sympathetic to the LDS and other faiths that are being beaten down by detractors nowadays. It seems that people want to define all religious faiths as "fundamentalist kooks," and then dismiss them all as something evil.

-Joe Offer-

23 Jan 05 - 09:21 AM (#1386008)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: artbrooks

IMHO, all organized religions are a bit silly...but everyone has a right to their own beliefs as long as they don't infringe on someone else's equivalent right.

However, I lived in Utah for a number of years and one of the things that stands out in my memories is the Mormon philosophy of helping others, whether they are LDS or not. I was part of the Federal relief effort that went to Rexburg Idaho when a large dam burst above the town, causing a tremendous amout of destruction and filling what was left of the town with a few feet of mud. Bus loads of Mormons came up from Salt Lake and, starting at one end of a street and going to the other, cleaned up all of the roads, yards and the interior of the homes (with permission, of course).

Having a religion is one thing, but living the precepts of that religion is quite another.

23 Jan 05 - 10:58 AM (#1386067)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

(from Susu's hubby again)

I never said that the LDS church isn't doing good things. Their benovolence toward fellow man is more than a lot of other faiths tend to do. Their focus on the family is incredible and causing a lot more families to probably stay together than to break apart. These are all wonderful things. Don't misunderstand me. I just think that their doctrine is akin to standing beside a wide open door but refusing to come in because they continue to knock on the window in hopes that somebody will unhitch the latch. It's really sad but I don't see the LDS leadership as sitting in a dark room making up policy and rewriting doctrine in order to keep their machine going. I see them as good men who have been mislead by Satan. They rely too much in "feeling" that they're right and not enough time researching their own scriptures and seeing the discrepancies and questioning those discrepancies to test their validity. Most LDS members don't know what's in their teachings. Brigham Young taught that Adam was God. Does anybody know that? It's in the Journal of Discourses. Check it out. See what the Mormon Bishops or the missionaries have to say about that. This is from one of the former prophets of the Church. Why is it not taught this way? Is it ok only to believe and live by the prophecies that you agree with and not all of them? You will hear LDS parishoners constantly talk about their feelings and just knowing that the way they believe is right. But I think ALL will agree with me in saying "It's not only important to know what you believe, but also, why you believe it."

23 Jan 05 - 03:57 PM (#1386332)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

" As man now is, God once was/As God now is, man may be. A son of God like God to be/Would not be robbing Deity " is attributed to Lorenzo Snow who was the fifth president of the Church. In 1840 he was spending an evening in the home of one Elder H.G. Sherwood before leaving on a mission to England. They were discussing the parable of the husbandman and as Lorenzo was listening to the discussion, he described it thus " [T]he Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun at noonday, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man. " He formed that couplet to express what he saw and told no one about this initially except his sister Eliza. When he reached England he talked privately with Brigham Young pertaining to this revelation and when he returned from England in 1843 he also spoke to the Prophet Joseph Smith about it. Joseph Smith then declared that it was true gospel doctrine and that it was a revelation from God to Lorenzo Snow. It was not publicly taught until 1844. Lorenzo Snow by the way did not become prophet until after the death of Wilford Woodruff in 1898 This is all documented in the Improvement Era of June 1919.

Yes I am Mormon and yes I do research my beliefs thoroughly because we as members of the LDS faith are taught to always increase our knowledge, that knowledge goes hand in hand with faith in God (those 'feelings ' you were talking about), to seek wisdom out of the best books and to make a habit of reading and studying the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price as well as many, many others. By all means I am not an atypical Mormon either for believing this. I am currently taking a religion class sponsored by my church and we are learning about Church History and the lives of the individual prophets. It is really quite fascinating. So yes I would fully agree with you on that last point.

I am aware of the Adam/God theory as my father actually enjoyed going up to young missionaries of our church who did not know he was a member and ask them " So tell me about this Adam/God theory you Mormons believe " :)

I am in the process of reading right now the exact sermon of Brigham Young's in which this is mentioned. I also questioned my father about it. He said that I have to also consider that Brigham Young was not a learned man by the standards of his time, that these discourses were all written down by people who were sitting and listening to Brigham Young speak in the tabernacle and the intent behind what he said has to be measured against what he actually said and what was actually written down. So I think it is a matter of going directly to the source, reading it, pondering it with sincere intent and coming to your own conclusions. Apparently Spencer W. Kimball overturned this doctrine in 1976, I will have to check up on that.

My final remarks are this.

On Prophets: There's a difference between ancient revelation and living revelation. Biblical prophets recieved revelation on a great many things pertaining to what was important to their people at particular times. Some of it we still follow, and some we do not. The revelations we do not follow any more are no less inspired than the ones we do and we do not follow them anymore not because we don't " agree " with them anymore...it's just that they served their individual purposes and are now historical footnotes to be studied and pondered for one's own benefit. I would also caution you to be mindful of what prophets say as men and what they say as Prophets. These are two entirely different things.

And a few remarks by Paul who is one of my favorites from the Bible

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea the deep things of God.

Phillipians 4:8 Finally brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue and if there be any praise think on these things

I don't think the Devil cares to drive us ever onwards in the direction of a fulfilling life and thereby becoming closer to God by encouraging us (God forbid) to actually think and ponder about what we believe and why we believe it. Anything of Satan does not uplift but drags down, it does not encourage us to be better people but instead encourages to be worse, it does not urge us to seek the wisdom of God but to rely on the arm of flesh. And a house divided cannot stand, plain and simple.

Now...if anyone is still curious I would be more than happy to continue discussing my beliefs and theology in general but by PM's. If any Mudcatters are still actually reading this thread they are probably bored to death by all this endless religious chatter by now :)

24 Jan 05 - 12:37 PM (#1387100)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Once Famous

Does anyone know if Marie Osmond has ever appeared anywhere naked?

24 Jan 05 - 05:36 PM (#1387520)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: artbrooks

Probably on a bearskin rug as a child...who cares.

24 Jan 05 - 05:42 PM (#1387533)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Once Famous

She's a Mormon.

24 Jan 05 - 08:06 PM (#1387682)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

This is for several people who have posted re: this thread,

Annamill, you are comparing apples and oranges re: blacks and women. If you read the bible it basically states that men are to be the spiritual leader of the household, hence the passage about women submit to your husbands. This does not mean whenever they want sex you have to give in, it means that in the end they have the say on important matters. Does this mean they are always right or that women cannot have a valid opinion? By no means, just that you do not let things get to the point where you are arguing over who is right or wrong. State your case and then let it go. Now if it is a salvation issue, i.e. he and you are differing on your theological beliefs then you are not to compromise, as your salvation is on you.

Pogo, you stated "So far as the actual process of choosing the next Prophet goes I am a little vague on that but I'll see what I can find on it." Let me enlighten you, the one who has the most seniority in the quorum of the twelve would become the next president in the LDS church should something happen to the current president, which would be Thomas S. Monson, if anything happens to him prior to that, then it would be Boyd K. Packer. That brings up another interesting question, which is, what does seniority have to do with it? If all other offices of the church are done by callings and prayer is involved then why not the most important office of the church? Just a thought!

Martin, No Marie Osmond has not appeared anywhere naked, (heck you would have heard about it and seen it by now don'tcha think?) Yes the Osmonds have had their share of troubles just like the rest of the people in this world no matter what religion they are, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with this discussion.

Susu

24 Jan 05 - 09:09 PM (#1387736)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,ragdall

Re "blacks are decendants of Cain"
I was raised in a non-Mormon protestant church in which we were also taught this.

From Christianity and History: Bible, Race & Slavery
Repression and Superiority

The later repression and discrimination against the freed black slaves received as much biblical and Christian support as the earlier institution of slavery itself. This discrimination and the choice to enslave blacks only was made primarily on the basis of what has become known as the "sin of Ham" or "the curse of Canaan." Occasionally there would also be defenses of the inferiority of blacks by asserting that they bore the "mark of Cain."

The rest of that essay is worth reading, if you are interested in a wider view of the use of scriptures to validate racism.

rags

24 Jan 05 - 11:12 PM (#1387795)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Once Famous

Yeah, but how did Marie and Donny get those type of teeth?

Is that some kind of genetic mormon trait?

And what about all of that Mormon bygamy that's been going on?

Do pygmies practice bygamy?

pygmy bygamy?

Does anyone in Australia know this?

Can anyone in Utah shed any light?

I want and must have some truth on this thread.

24 Jan 05 - 11:26 PM (#1387800)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

"The revelations we do not follow any more are no less inspired than the ones we do and we do not follow them anymore not because we don't " agree " with them anymore...it's just that they served their individual purposes and are now historical footnotes to be studied and pondered for one's own benefit."

Who are we to presume the mind of God and know when His "revelations" through his LDS "prophet" need to be followed or not? If God is the same yesterday, today and forever then why do you trust a self proclaimed prophet to tell you what prophecies do or do not apply anymore? This statement is probably one of the most scary that I've seen on this thread yet.

25 Jan 05 - 01:22 AM (#1387855)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Joe Offer

It's cosmetic dentistry done by nondenominational bigamist pygmy dentists, Martin. The teeth have nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with show business. Those are very expensive teeth those Osmond kids have.

Now be nice, or I'll have to use my delete button on you - and I won't use Novocaine...
-Joe Offer-

25 Jan 05 - 09:49 AM (#1388015)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,~S~

What about the teaching that a woman cannot get into the Mormon understanding of the afterlife, without first being married to a man?

~S~

25 Jan 05 - 11:02 AM (#1388051)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Paco Rabanne

According to a programme on BBC2 last night, you can't say "pygmy" anymore. They find it demeaning. They prefer to be known as "forest people"

25 Jan 05 - 11:02 AM (#1388053)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Paco Rabanne

oh, 100 by the way!

25 Jan 05 - 11:19 AM (#1388075)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Once Famous

Oh, Joe lighten up, will you?

25 Jan 05 - 07:19 PM (#1388570)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

Right susu's hubby...or susu, I dunno :) Okay, guess ya want to keep the thread up. I'm game.

Okay...BUT before I go any further with the new stuff...I would like to ask you what your honest intent is in continuing to ask questions. Are you trying to understand the LDS faith better? Are you the kind that just enjoys debate for debate's sake? Are you trying to find things about the LDS faith to prove incorrect and thereby justify why your particular view on things is the correct one? Are you desiring to convert me? Once I know your intent I will perhaps have a clearer understanding of how I need to approach things. Not getting defensive or testy, mind. But I do feel a bit weary from all this work :)

And again I stress. I don't have a degree in theology. I'm about average intelligence. I have not served a mission for the LDS faith and am not preparing to. I am still increasing my knowledge. And all the things I am discussing are not immediately stamped " church doctrine " simply because I am Mormon. And I'm in the process of reading through the Bible cover to cover which is one of my new goals.

They are opinions, ponderings and thoughts directly related to my personal experience as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I am trying to answer all of your questions to the best of my ability and praying very hard for inspiration and a spirit of charity and mutual understanding as I do so. I'm not trying to convert you or argue with you or force you to accept my point of view. I am just discussing matters pertaining to the faith I belong to and I'm quite willing to continue the discussion but not ad nasueam. Which it may be already ;o) Hence the offer to continue through PMs.

Ball's in your court now.

MG...Yup. Mormons all have big teeth. And horns. We gore the hell out of Gentiles (non-members) whenever we get the chance. It's great fun...our lizard overlords who live in the vault beneath the temple encourage it.

...I'm being flippant ;O) I needed a mental break...

25 Jan 05 - 09:08 PM (#1388656)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Pogo...it's like this....

Don't read any assumptions into this because it's just for comparison sake......

There were two boys. One was raised in a poor family and lived in the country. His parents loved him dearly. He had to either grow or hunt for his meals. He would have it no other way. He couldn't understand how anyone would want to go to a market and "buy" what was provided to him with a little hard work and elbow grease. His senses to his surroundings grew strong and he was full of common sense and knew the meaning of a hard day's work.

The other boy was born in wealth. He never had to use his hands to do anything. Everything was either given to him or done for him. His parents loved him dearly. He went to the finest schools and was taught by the greatest lecturers. He had lots of book sense. He could not understand how anybody would want to dig in the ground and butcher their own meat when you could go to the store and get the food already prepared.

....you and I represent these two boys (you can decide who you want to be). Both of us were raised probably with the same family lifestyle but our philosophies on our individual religious doctrines are as far apart as the lifestyles and beliefs of the two boys above. I'm not trying to convert but trying to, perhaps, gain a little better understanding of why you believe in a way that makes no sense to me. Some of the LDS beliefs are so foreign and (for lack of a better word and by no means meant to offend) wacky to me, that I have a hard time understanding why any (again, not meant to offend)sensible person would believe and justify these beliefs when they come from the mouth of a "man" claiming to be a modern day prophet of God......

I hope that I might have cleared up why I was asking the questions above.....if not then we may just have to agree to disagree and continue to pray for each other.......

Susu's hubby!

25 Jan 05 - 11:17 PM (#1388720)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

*nods*

Then by all means let us shake hands when we meet on the road going to Emmaus. I am glad to know your intent now, thank you. It makes me feel much better about the conversation.

You have to understand...my mother converted from the Baptist faith shortly after her and my father were married in her church (he is fourth generation Southern Mormon) I myself was not baptized and confirmed a member of the LDS church until I was ten years old (the usual age is eight) My mother remains the only member of the church in her family. So yes...I've heard a lot of things (good and bad)about the LDS faith pretty much my whole life and it has given me a more unique perspective on what I believe than say perhaps a Mormon born and raised in Salt Lake City, Utah.

I completely understand what you are saying and I am not offended because I try my best to remember the law of charity and that charity is not easily offended. Yeah...we do believe a lot of strange things that are hard to understand and may not make any sense at all from your perspective. I understand that you are looking at them from your point of view and your religious background. That is quite all right.

I will try to give my opinions and thoughts on the questions asked in a bit :)

27 Jan 05 - 02:31 PM (#1390370)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

Susu pm'd ya.

Guest S...we teach that entering the covenant of marriage is a way by which one may gain the highest order of the celestial glory (and this applies to both men and women) but we do not teach that you must be married else you won't be allowed into heaven and be able to be with God. Otherwise the men and women who for whatever reasons are unmarried when they depart this life wouldn't have a chance, right? And that would be pretty unfair.

If you wish to talk further on the subject please PM me :)

27 Jan 05 - 03:39 PM (#1390425)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: LilyFestre

Pogo,

Are you sure? I've heard and read that the women must be married to enter into the Mormon's understanding of the afterlife. It was explained to me that this is one reason why polygamy (sp?) was allowed. Many men have married older women simply because they felt sorry for them and wanted them to be able to access "heaven" or whatever the Mormons believe in (I was once told that it is believed that each individual gets their own universe upon their departure from this world). I don't know. I went to a Mormon service just once with some travelling young men who visited me and my college roommates...we listened to their beliefs, we asked questions, we shared our beliefs, they asked questions...we went to their church to just see what it was about. Folks were REAL clingy to anyone new and it freaked all of us out so we never went back.

There is an excellent book out called Red Water about the different lives of Mormon women who were all married to the same man. Very interesting reading.

Michelle

27 Jan 05 - 05:57 PM (#1390576)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

[Folks were REAL clingy to anyone new and it freaked all of us out so we never went back]

heh yeah...I don't blame you that would be pretty unnerving. Sometimes folks can go a wee bit over the top with the friendliness O_O

For me personally I try to take a live and let live attitude. If people ask my religion I tell them. If they ask questions I try my best to answer them and give my opinions on them. If they seem very interested by all means I encourage them to talk to any missionaries in the area and go attend a church service and from there decide for themselves. But I don't believe in being pushy, I try not to beat people over the head with my faith and I don't believe in being friends with someone just out of the hopes that they'll convert.

Having said that, Lily I am going on what I have read in the Doctrine and Covenants and my own personal experience.

I've never heard the Prophet and other leaders of the church do anything but praise the single sisters in the church for their faithfulness and for all the good work they do and not because they feel " sorry " for them but because they do have respect for what they do. I've never been told that I won't make it to heaven if I died unmarried tommorrow :) and quite personally I think any guy who marries a girl because he feels sorry for her is missing the point.

It makes sense to me that anyone, male or female, who does all they can to live a worthy and faithful life will be granted the highest blessings that God can offer them and that God will take into due consideration the circumstances of the life that each individual lived while on earth and the desires of the individual's heart.

But truth be told...I'm not an authority on how precisely things are arranged in the afterlife :) as I've never been there.

Polygamy...that's a whole 'nuther can of worms {O) feel free to PM. My favorite view on that " peculiar institution " is from " Around The World In Eighty Days " by Jules Verne when a Mormon races for the train and just barely makes it. That whole chapter is hilarious {O)

" When the Mormon had recovered his breath, Passepartout ventured to ask him politely how many wives he had; for from the manner in which he had decamped, it might be thought he had twenty at least.
'One, sir ' replied the Mormon, raising his arms heavenward, 'one and that was enough! ' "

27 Jan 05 - 08:41 PM (#1390756)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Lily, There are alot of churches where the people are "extremely friendly" and that can be unnerving. I personally do not like that either, as I am a private person and I like my space respected. The best thing I can suggest is to make your boundaries known by extending your hand for a handshake, if they still insist on hugging I find it acceptable to mention to them that you are not a touchy-feely person. I am Baptist and that happens in a miriad of churches not just the LDS church, so do not hold that against them, as it may have just been some of the people in that particular ward. It is every Christians duty in my opinion to research any religions who maintain that they are Christians. This would be most enlightening to anyone, as long as you are sincere in your endeavors and you remain open-minded, not confrontational. Susu

27 Jan 05 - 09:43 PM (#1390806)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Donuel

What seperates the "former" Waco Texas Davidians from the church of LDS is an imaginative elegant language of golden plates falling from heaven etc.

and the chasm of time.

PS

Having a family business in Utah and being Mormon gives a whole new meaning to "family business". The arranged inbreeding between cousins keeps the money in the family in a very bizarre Godfather way.

The 60 minutes revelations of a young woman that was raped and abused by her cousin under the sanction of the father of the huge family multi business complex was very revealing.

28 Jan 05 - 11:53 AM (#1391374)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,RayB

Pogo, you're to be commended for sticking with this lengthy thread. Personally I see a lot of trolls here, and you took them all in stride. I think it says a lot for your character. I know that some of these folks claim to be "innocent bystanders" but from some of the "points" they're making, it's clear they're ringers.

If someone wants to know about LDS doctrines, I suggest they contact the Elders and discuss it with them one on one. All spirituality comes down to personal choices, and personal beliefs, based upon the experiences we each have.

If God was reassembling his restored church in preparation for his return, chances are, if you were on the outside of it, you'd think it was pretty "wacky". That's what the Jews thought of Christ in his own day, that is what the Egyptians thought of Moses and the Hebrew children.

Ultimately, final judgment rests not upon what your neighbor believed, but on what you believed and how true you were to those true beliefs (aka your faith).

Best regards,

--Ray

28 Jan 05 - 12:08 PM (#1391405)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,RayB

To Donuel,

Do you honestly believe it is a decent thing to attempt to characterize Utah Mormons as incestuous rapists?

What do you gain by sewing seeds of hatred and intollerance?

--Ray

28 Jan 05 - 01:59 PM (#1391534)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: LilyFestre

Susu,

I hope you are not getting the impression that I found ONLY the Mormons to be that way, nor am I trying to say that it is a BAD thing. It just wasn't for me. I am not comfortable around new folks, especially ones who are over-enthusiastic...it feels invasive to me. Had the people of that particular church (or others that I have visited) been more casual in their friendliness instead of seeming in a panic to recruit new members, I might have stuck around to learn more. I'm a curious bug by nature and it is highly likely I would have stayed...for a little while at least. :)

Michelle

28 Jan 05 - 02:30 PM (#1391557)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Michelle, I understand whole-heartedly where you are coming from. It is strange but I perform on stage at a country opryhouse in Texas, and strangely enough, I am in my element on stage but when the audience wants to come up and hug me, I get unnerved. This also happened at the church I go to now, when I first started going there, but now they have actually learned through me that not all people are comfortable with that, and many of them do not impose on guests like they use to. Susu

29 Jan 05 - 02:19 PM (#1392449)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books

"FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU CHALANGE ANY OF MY IDEAS OR IMPUTE THAT I MAY BE WRONG OR SAY THAT MY SHIT STINKS JUST LIKE YOUR'S, I'LL RUN AWAY AND HIDE.
SO THERE!

Since when has Mormonism been a "race"?

PP "

PP, I have no desire to talk to people who can't hold a mature, reasonable conversation and will just spout abuse. No problems with people questioning my beliefs or anything like that.
I didn't say it was a race, should have used a better term, but I didn't.

29 Jan 05 - 02:21 PM (#1392452)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: kendall

If all human blood is the same, how come there are no Swedes in the Mafia? (Archie Bunker)

29 Jan 05 - 03:30 PM (#1392520)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books

Some points here that need clarification.

First of all, we have never declared that blacks cease to be descendants of Cain, but that the restriction on them holding the Priesthood has been lifted.

Women cannot attain the highest order of celestial glory if they are single. HOWEVER circumstances do not always allow them to be married, and as we are also judged by the intents of our heart (IE what we would have done if we had the oppurtunity), all worthy single members will be found a partner.

Satan was trying to convince Eve that all she had to do to become a god was to eat of this fruit, which had been forbidden to them. The key here is disobedience. You will never attain any form of perfection by disobedience. If you pereserve and try to be perfect, you have the chance to become perfect. If you can do it, you won't be denied the benefits. Quite different to disobeying and trying to gain something by making no effort to achieve it.

The living Prophet recieves revelation that applies to us today. Not all revelations given 3000 years ago are applicable today, because the circumstances are not the same. Some things are not needful for us, some things are very specific to a certain circumstance, some things have been taken from the earth because of iniquity or disobedience. We are left with the things that are essential for our salvation.

We are also counseled to always read the scriptures and the teaching of the prophets, and to pray about things to know if they are true. We do not believe in ignorance whatsoever, and in fact will be held accountable if it was wilful. We also believe in the prophet, and that the moment he ceases to follow the word of the Lord, he will be removed. If you don't believe on the prophet, then why are you a member of the church. We are the wrong place if you re only prepared to believe in part of the truth. If you do believe, then there shouldn't be a problem. You are more than welcome to pray about it however.

We have ALWAYS said that we believe in the Bible ( the Book of Mormon is in ADDITION not as a replacement) and apart from belief in God the Father, belief in Jesus Christ is the most basic principle.

As for the picture of Jesus as a white man, the Middle-Eastern Semitic type may be darker than a northern-European, but it is not THAT dark. Drawing him as a European is artistic licence.

I would really appreciate it if people who wish to troll or spout abuse would not respond to this.

BTW blacks were not the only people enslaved in America. Indians were too, and I think, but can't be sure off-hand, that in the 17th c. there were even instances of whites (like prisoners or indentured servants).

29 Jan 05 - 03:40 PM (#1392528)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books

Ooh, the poor widdle Swedes, denied equal oppurtunities in the wacky, high-paced world of organized crime....

29 Jan 05 - 10:01 PM (#1392850)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

Hm...

If it's all the same I request the thread should be closed. I'd like to end on a positive note before the thread turns into a bickerfest
:( folks have presented all sides of the original subject and I'd say it's been pretty much talked to death

All God's children got wings :)

30 Jan 05 - 05:57 AM (#1393022)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books

Yes, too many trolls. More than happy to continue by PM with interested parties.

30 Jan 05 - 07:37 PM (#1393734)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

I have no problem with closing this thread as I got my answer long ago on it and it seems that some people are just gonna be jerks about certain issues related to the LDS church and other religions for that matter. If there is anyone who can tell me how to close it, since I started it, I would be more than happy to do so. Best to all. Susu

30 Jan 05 - 07:44 PM (#1393741)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: wysiwyg

Women cannot attain the highest order of celestial glory if they are single. HOWEVER circumstances do not always allow them to be married, and as we are also judged by the intents of our heart (IE what we would have done if we had the oppurtunity), all worthy single members will be found a partner.

Celestial marriage, right? Sorry, any way one says it, it's like this: Women cannot attain the highest order of celestial glory if they are single. Not quite what is said up front, as (for instance) in the nice TV commercials.

~S~

30 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM (#1393748)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Georgiansilver

Anyone can attain Celestial Glory if they know the means.......
Gods love is infinitessimal...Use it or what?
Best wishes,Mike.

30 Jan 05 - 07:55 PM (#1393750)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Georgiansilver

Jesus lives! He is God.. He is the Son of God, He is the Holy Spirit...I believe this...You can knock my belief all you want but you will not shake it!!! Alleluia....Praise the Lord.... know the truth!!!!!!!!
Go on then....try to shake me...try to hurt me and my belief...you Can't.
Best wishes and the LOVE of GOD to all.......Mike,

30 Jan 05 - 08:53 PM (#1393811)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

WS....*points up* my thoughts on that one in particular to add to the other views :)

" Any soul who by nature or circumstance is not afforded the blessing of marriage and parenthood, or who innocently must act alone in rearing children, working to support them, will not be denied in the eternities any blessing—provided they keep the commandments. "

"A man who holds the priesthood does not have an advantage over a woman in qualifying for exaltation. "

Boyd K. Packer " For Time and All Eternity "
October 1993 General Conference, November issue " Ensign ".

Like I said this thread's been talked to death

30 Jan 05 - 09:47 PM (#1393843)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: LilyFestre

Considering that the title of the thread is A Question for Mormons, how could it possibly have been talked to death? I have lots of questions! Which of you shall I PM about them if you no longer wish to answer such questions via the board? And why would you only want to answer questions through PMs when information could be shared and learned from?

Michelle

31 Jan 05 - 06:47 AM (#1394093)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books

Holding the Priesthood does not automatically mean I will attain the Highest Degree of Celestial Glory. If anything, the responsibilities are greater.

~S~, you have ignored the rest of the paragraph. If circumstances don't allow marriage to a worthy partner, you won't be condemmed. You will be judged on your actions and on the intent of your heart. IE what you would do if you had the chance. You will be found someone that is perfect for you.
On the other hand, it doesn't mean you should run out to get married just for that reason.
Live righteously, make the best effort you can, and you will be blessed. God is merciful and does not punish his children for anything that is not their fault.
Also, the TV commercial is not the complete Gospel! It's to get you interested, that is all.

Michelle, if you could guarantee no trolls I would be delighted to continue on the board. But since that won't happen, let's do it via PM. I'll be glad to answer any of your questions.

31 Jan 05 - 07:52 AM (#1394133)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: LilyFestre

Are you kidding me? A guarantee?!?!?!? Of no trolls? Forgive me, but this IS the internet and you will find folks who don't share your same opinion. Why not surf through and just read what looks good to you? I have to say that your lack of desire to communicate openly sends up red flags to me.

Michelle

31 Jan 05 - 09:14 AM (#1394196)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books

No desire to communicate openly??? To repeat: I have done so, even in the message above. I don't mind people disagreeing, not sharing my opinion, or anything like that, but why do I (or anyone else for that matter) need to take insults and abuse? There is a difference between abuse and disagreements.

31 Jan 05 - 10:03 AM (#1394248)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: LilyFestre

I mean communicating openly here where people can see what is stated, ask questions (that maybe I hadn't thought of), and the opportunity to see different points of view. I don't appreciate nasty posts anymore than you do, but I don't mind when someone respectfully shares their different point of view. That kind of thing helps me to think things out. Sooooooooooo...I'd much rather read here and ignore the flamers and trolls who are obviously not here to make any other point than their desire to huff and puff. I can overlook that kind of nonsense and you can too!

So.....let's start with the real basics....who was this Joseph Smith guy? Where did he come from? Why is he considered so important?

Michelle

31 Jan 05 - 10:04 AM (#1394250)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: wysiwyg

Weasel Books, you're trying to persuade, not share or inform. I already believe God finds me whatever is perfect for me, every day. Your tone is patronising-- I didn't ignore or miss a thing you said. I just choose not to sit at your feet for further programming. I sure would not do it in private.

~Susan

31 Jan 05 - 02:53 PM (#1394596)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

*ahem*

Well...WB has his views, I have mine though it's the same religion and that's quite all right. Lily I suggested PMs because I figured everyone was pretty much bored with this thread and didn't want to continue with it ad nasueam. However I have no problem giving my opinions, thoughts and views on questions here or with PMs if there's still an interest. Provided they are asked in honest curiosity. It's just a personal thing with me. I take no pleasure in discussing religion when it turns into a debate for debate's sake because I feel that takes the Spirit right out of the conversation and turns it instead into a " why religion A is the better choice over religion B " See what I'm saying? :)

So guys...if you wish, yes I will discuss things further here and to the best of my ability

31 Jan 05 - 06:52 PM (#1394911)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

:) oh yeah...so where would those interested like to start? With the Joseph Smith questions? If so...give me a bit and I'll reply

31 Jan 05 - 07:09 PM (#1394939)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,Susu's Hubby

Pogo,

(Again....not being confrontational....or trying to convert.....just curious....)

I do have one question. Let's take your two statements: a)You believe that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. (stated by you in your PM to me.) b) You have faith and belief in the LDS doctrine of eternal progression. (for those of you unfamiliar, doctrine of eternal progression is the belief that God was once a man and achieved Godhood. Man may also become a god of his own universe upon receiving admission into the Celestial Heavenly kingdom.)

How can these two beliefs co-exist when both are talking about the physical and spiritual side of man and or God?

01 Feb 05 - 09:46 PM (#1396397)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

Well...what is your opinions on man's understanding of God's existence and God's understanding of His own existence?

What do we see from where we are? What does God see from where He is? We know about beginnings, middles and ends. We can understand yesterday, today and tommorrow. God existed yesterday, he exists today and he will exist tommorrow. This is perhaps a very broad and simple statement. It doesn't take into consideration on how we comprehend time and how God comprehends time.

Remember the old story of the blind men and the elephant? Each man was right about what a elephant looks like according to the extent of his knowledge and his personal perceptions. They however could not see the elephant in his entirety.

The nature of God and the nature of man has both similarities and differences. In that doctrine you speak of I'd like to point out that there is no claim on God's position as the Father and the Creator of the Universe. We don't ' become ' God any more than a daughter could become her mother or a son could become his father.

But well I don't pretend to know how God became God. And perhaps this is knowledge one simply cannot fathom given the limited capacity of our understanding while we live on this earth. But I do know that Jesus said " Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. " and I do know that in 1st John 3:2 it says " Beloved , now are we the sons of God and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is "

Those are difficult ideas both to ponder and to explain fully. I don't know that these thoughts are satisfactory answers to your question. If they aren't I'm truly sorry. I'm not sure how to put it all into words. But I personally believe that God would not have us do anything unless he knew we had the capacity to do it within us or else that he was preparing a way for us to achieve it. I believe that I am a child of God the same as we all are. Being so, we have obligations and responsibilties as children of God and yet we are not strangers in his household. We have within us something that is also a part of God Himself. Now...what do we do with it? Is it like the one talent give to the servant? Is it made to just sit there and do nothing? What do you think?

Observe our universe sometime. It's only one of God only knows how many. There's action going on all the time. Stars are born, stars collapse and die. Planets form from the dust of other planets and in turn cease to exist. There's this constant cycle of birth and rebirth. Where does it begin? Where does it cease to exist? I dunno. But I guess you could apply the same thinking to who and what God is.

The knowledge inherent in the human soul goes deeper than the knowledge of the human brain :) Just my rambly, disjointed thoughts. Hell...I'm not even sure what I'm thinking. But I'm trying my best to put it into words for ya.

01 Feb 05 - 10:20 PM (#1396437)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

I don't presume to understand the origin of God. I'm not asking to have the origin of God explained to me. This is an unknown that will have to wait until we all get to heaven to understand. I'm just trying to put my mind around how two ideas on opposite ends of the spectrum can exist in one belief structure.

You are correct that the concept of beginnings, middle, and ends are from a human standpoint. But if God cannot relate to us in any way but a human point of view, then he has to make himself known in a way in which we (humans) would understand. You and I both agree that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. It's not a question of whether or not God existed. We all know that God has existed forever. The point of the statement, IMO, is that God is never changing. God has never sinned. So, from the human point of view, I understand that to be forever in all directions. ( a concept difficult to understand but with an ever expanding waist line...I'm starting to get a clue.);-)

I truly believe that God is not the author of confusion. So again I ask, How can these two beliefs co-exist when God has never sinned and has always been in the state that we understand them to be. I'm not asking for anyone to presume to know the mind of God. I'm just trying to reconcile these beliefs and am pondering how they can fit together in the same system.

In tons of Christian Love,

Susu's Hubby

03 Feb 05 - 01:02 PM (#1398087)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

[I don't presume to understand the origin of God. I'm not asking to have the origin of God explained to me. This is an unknown that will have to wait until we all get to heaven to understand. I'm just trying to put my mind around how two ideas on opposite ends of the spectrum can exist in one belief structure.]

Me neither. And I'm just sort of pondering outloud on that concept since it relates in a way to your question but I don't have any black-and-white answers either just ponderings and speculations. I'd agree with you on that...The ideas we're discussing are pretty deep and perhaps from God's point of view they are fairly simple to understand but not so much from our point of view.

By the way I am glad you are asking questions like this. It is always good to ponder things which are of God. If there's any confusion I'm sorry. The fault lies in me. The ideas fit together in my head I just have trouble with putting them into words that are understandable :)

I PM'd you with further thoughts on the matter. Please read through those thoughts carefully and I hope it helps you come to more satisfactory answers :)

03 Feb 05 - 03:19 PM (#1398224)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland.

As a 2nd generation Mormon can I put some comments about the race issue forward.

I remember having the same distaste as others about the racism issue until I met a black missionary, well three.

I asked what they thought about the priesthood being denied to black member, including their parents, their answer was simple.

As they believed in the teaching of the Church, they had no problems following it's doctrines to the full. Two were amazed that people got offended on their behalf, seeing issues that are not there, in their minds.

The doors to the Church were not closed to black people just certain areas which true believers accepted.

This is not the case now, a living Prophet as like those in "Biblical times" instructed us otherwise, that's how they are preisthood holding missionaries now and no holding to old .

Often our concerns are misguided due to a level of ignorance as with this issue the answer is there if you are willing to accept it.

Danites were not around at the time of the Meadow Mountain Massacre, they occured later.

03 Feb 05 - 06:40 PM (#1398312)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,RayB

When the revelation came that all worthy males may receive the priestood (lifting the "ban"), LDS were instructed to forget or disregard ANY teaching on the subject.

I remember that day because at the time it was revealed, my parents were so excited. My father later explained that while serving in the temple he had had a personal revelation that the priestood restrictions was about to be lifted. They were so happy.

The fact that some LDS leaders spoke about Cain's seed is niether here nor there. We simply don't know what is the truth behind the policies, and we were instructed that what had been taught in the past was to cease, that it was not to continue. The point is that it simply isn't relevant. There are some who may be sympathetic to this or that notion, I suppose.

I give the following as my personal opinion, which does not affect my standing in the church, nor does it matter. It simply is, to me, an interesting historical aside... Personally I think the Cain idea is ridiculous, and was most likely borrowed by protestant apologists by members of the LDS church. Joseph Smith himself gave the priesthood to one Elijah Abel who was a black man. The fact of the matter was that there weren't many black converts originally, and that a doctrine that might have come from some other fundamentalist sect was somehow adopted as a "policy" in the church, or more credibly, was adopted as a way to appease the murderous mobs of Missouri many of which were pro-slavery. It was these same mobs that murdered Joseph Smith, and thus the legacy of what might have been a clarified doctrine and set straight in policy in the church took a sabatical while the saints sought to save the remnants of their own lives.

When you're fleeing for your life into a barren wilderness, you tend not to care if you're politically correct. The remaining colonies fought a bloody war that became all about slavery, while mormons were making their first settlements in the Mountain valleys of Deseret.

The fact that the church was able to thrive and go through many changes, many of which occurred just decades prior, is remarkable. It is to Joseph Smith's credit that reading the Doctrine and Covenants today is as relevant as it was when he was prophesying. It went from being an internally looking religion, one which encouraged every new convert to gather in Utah, to one that became more accepted as worldwide tolerance of religious diversity also became more than just a sentence written on the Constitution. It wasn't until a few years ago that the state of Illinois and Missouri even repealed some laws and decrees, or apologized to Mormons for state sanctioned laws that incited violence and intolerance.

It was not until the church was able to expand beyond the intermountain western area of the USA that it would be able to confront some of the issues regarding its policies. This is the nature of a living church, able to adapt to the endtimes as they hit us. There are all sorts of "strange" notions and programs that appear different to outsiders, but given the seal of the Holy Spirit for the times in which we live, they make a lot of sense. LDS have been encouraged to plant gardens, collect a year's worth of basic food and emergency supplies, to stay out of debt, not partake of drugs, drink caffeine, collect geneaological information, live healthy lifestyles, keep the sabbath day holy, have water instead of wine in their sacrament, baptize not babies but children at an age of accountability (8), tithing, the building of temples apart from churches, a welfare program, church farms and canneries, its missionary program for 19 yr old young men, 21 yr old young women and retired couples, Monday night is family night, home teaching, 3 hour Sunday meeting block, encouragement to participate in the boy scout program, encouragement to write in a journal... and the list goes on... the point is that you're better off getting your information from actual LDS who are currently IN the church and a part of it.

It's not a simple matter of so and so said such and such, because above all, LDS believe that all members need to have a witness of the truthfulness of the restored Gospel--a revelation from God--that they belong to his church. That is obtained by careful study of the scriptures, thought and discussion, and sincere prayer. LDS members choose to be a part of the church. Parents teach their children with the hopes that they will choose to be part of it as well, but most parents recognize that despite the best parenting, children make choices that often run counter to their wishes. Likewise, so does God.

God is not going to force anyone to be mormon, anymore than he forced the Jews to be Jewish. And in many ways, LDS view their religion in much the same way ancient Jews might have viewed their religion when they had an actual living prophet. What was God trying to teach the man he electrocuted when he attempted to steady the Ark and the Covenant? What was God trying to teach his children when they wandered for forty years in the wilderness, and complained everytime Moses asked them to do something that require an inkling of faith? Have humans suddenly changed their nature, that they no longer are willful or slow to heed God's commands today?

Everyone is born into the world ignorant. While we grow to adulthood our minds must confront many notions which we later find out to be untrue or we simply misunderstood their purpose, misascribed a reason to the reason that those around us behaved they way they did.

This is one reason why LDS are encouraged to be tolerant of other religions. We are encouraged in this day to seek common ground, and share in raising decent,upright, law-abiding families and to encourage good in others as well. Because we too have room for improvement and are desperately seeking the guidance and inspiration that can ONLY come from God, especially when it comes to things that ONLY God can answer.

That I believe that the LDS church is the true church of God on the earth, should not threaten anyone. I am not going to blow up some building or hack a head off. Instead I am being encouraged to be tolerant, loving, and patient, longsuffering and humble.

Such is life. And I personally am grateful to live in a time when my religion is not embattled--a time when the government of my land is NOT marshalling an army to destroy my home (other than whatever filth it allows to be sent over the broadcast channels or on the internet, and guess what, I can turn that stuff off)!

It is a great time to be alive. It is a great time to be a mormon. And I for one thank God every day for rich blessings... no conspiracies, no secret evil agendas, no desire to stomp on some underprivileged class, no illegal nastiness... I'm just a person of faith,

--Ray

03 Feb 05 - 07:20 PM (#1398371)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

Hah {O) Well said Ray.

I can vouch for this guest. Ray is a friend of mine from another forum. I told him about the stuff being discussed in his thread. He's got his act together ;o)

" dear lord...they travel in herds! " {OP

03 Feb 05 - 09:44 PM (#1398504)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Well, I know that the LDS church taught the Cain issue. My parents have been members since 1967 or 1968 I can't really remember exactly when, but I know that it was a teaching from the higher authorities. Even before the ban was lifted, it was a discussion in our stake that soon there would be a change. There was alot of political pressure due to the fact that segregation was a hot topic due to George Wallace's stance, and affirmative action was in place. Sadly, the fact that affimative action was first discussed by President Johnson in 1965, even though the 1964 Civil Rights Act had already been signed into law. Yet this did nothing for equality. The fact that it was not until the 70's that it became apparent that segregation was truly wrong. Even today, there are those narrow-minded people who think that the 1954 Brown vs. the Board of Education of Topeka, should not have been imposed. Now that being said, the LDS church probably would still be banning blacks if segregation was still in practice. I feel really sorry for those people who have bought into what the church tells them that this former practice was acceptable because in someway it was ordained by God. Get a clue people, they basically justified (and members let them), racism. This is FACT! And again, I go back to your "Articles of Faith" that man shall be punished for his own sins and not for Adams transgressions. We are all accountable only for what sins we commit, not for what our ancestors do, and if you in any way believe that this is not a true statement, then you really need to re-evaluate the teachings of your church. Now onto the belief that I have about the Godhead. It is like this, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It would be the same as Macbeth, Can McBeth meet Shakespear? If Shakespear wrote himself into a play then yes he could. Well God is the author, and He wrote himself into our world to atone for our sins. Or like an egg. you have the shell, the white, and the yolk, they all create the egg, they are one. There you have it. Again, if you just take what the church tells you on "blind faith" then you are risking your salvation, and I pray that you will question EVEERYTHING! It is your job, as it is your soul. Much Christian Love, Susanne

03 Feb 05 - 11:04 PM (#1398568)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

Yes...but you seem to not realize. I do think about my faith. I think about how it works all the time. I do have questions. And I take those questions to God and I ponder them and I study scriptures and I study the writings of wise men and women and not just those that are LDS. So forgive me but I don't see how that is blind faith. I would hope that everyone does that, no matter what their faith is.

Quite frankly I am puzzled and sad. I get the impression (forgive me if it's wrong) that the whole intent of the thread was to focus solely on this one issue (which has already been discussed quite thoroughly) and somehow through that hint that everything that I believe in is untrue.

I am sorry you feel this way towards the LDS faith. I don't know why. I don't take that viewpoint towards what you believe. It just seems like you want to argue about it instead of seeking for common ground. I don't believe in that. Arguing over beliefs doesn't bring any kind of understanding. So I guess here is where we part ways. Good luck and God bless you and yours, also.

Joe close this thread please. There's nothing more to say.

04 Feb 05 - 01:35 PM (#1399141)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,RayB

It is clear, Susu, from your last post and your first that you are a troll. If you had wanted to discuss this topic you could've been honest from where you come from, but you weren't.

WHile I am not your judge, I must frankly say that your "christian love" with which you sign your posts does the body of decent honest christians no service, because I see your posts as fundamentally dishonest.

You had no intent to ask questions, and when we answered the questions not according to your preconceived notions, you claim that we're deluding ourselves.

Questions of faith and cultural biases are difficult issues to manage. Racism has been justified by very religious people and I am not going to condemn anyone to hell for it. I have expressed my opinion on it, but unless God tells me otherwise, I will stick with it.

Pogo has answered your questions and done so honestly. I fail to see what you gain by continuing your quest to decry mormons for something you continue to demonstrate a fundamental inability to grasp.

Best regards,

--Ray

04 Feb 05 - 01:52 PM (#1399152)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

:) Ah-ah...it's cool Ray. I sent a PM just a bit ago. The matter's settled and we've all said our peace. It's dead and done, friends, let's think no more on it but on better things.

04 Feb 05 - 04:40 PM (#1399353)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST

Not to add to this arguement but this provoked a family discussion on this issue.

Here is an excerpt from http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/homepage.html

"Black Mormons" are Mormons of black African lineage of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; commonly known as The Mormon Church (also called "The LDS Church" or The Mormon Faith). There have been Black Mormons since 1832; two years after the official founding of the Church in New York State in 1830. One of the first Seventies of the LDS Church was a Black Mormon by the name of Elijah Abel (1810-1884). Because of his great faith, he was ordained to the Priesthood and became a member of the Third Quorum of Seventy; a priesthood-office just under Apostle. He was a personal friend to the Prophet Joseph Smith, and helped to rescue him from mobs in Missouri bent upon taking his life. Elijah Abel's son Enoch and grandson Elijah were also ordained to various offices in the Priesthood. Elijah Abel died in Salt Lake City, Utah, at the age of 74; just after having served a mission for the Church in Canada and Cincinnati, Ohio.

I hope this puts an end to the ignorance some og us have about this issue,even within my family circle.

04 Feb 05 - 05:18 PM (#1399391)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Susu's Hubby

Ray and Pogo,

Please do not get me mixed up with my wife. But please understand, she came from an LDS family and is quite as confused and perplexed about the belief structure of the LDS church as I am. I'm trying to be as patient as I can about understanding your beliefs and please understand that we are as passionate about our beliefs as you are of yours. She too, like you Pogo, knows what she believes and why she believes it but sometimes she has so many thoughts going through her head it is hard to put them all down in words. But I still love her very much. She's so cute when she gets angry! (Except when she's angry at me!)

04 Feb 05 - 05:48 PM (#1399413)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST

Q. Did the Church end the Priesthood-ban because of outside pressure?

A. No! During the late 1960s and early 1970s many blacks and some whites protested the Church's denial of the Priesthood to black men; saying it was "discrimination" and "racist". The Church responded by asking them why they would want the Church to grant to black men a "Priesthood" they considered to be "false" in the first place! It would be like a white man saying, "I have the Power of God that He has delegated to me! Blacks cannot have this Power. He has decreed that, and not me." Then blacks and some whites confront him saying, "Oh, you are a RACIST! You are evil! You are LYING! You invented this tale of yours. You have no 'Power of God'! But, you MUST give blacks this Power you don't have, or we will beat you and harrass you until you do!"

How "ridiculous" is to complain that the Church did not ordain black men when those complaining believed the Church, and its Priesthood, was FALSE? ABSURD! Yet, this is what they did.

04 Feb 05 - 05:49 PM (#1399415)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST

Sorry I posted this by mistake, I do not want to fuel this situation.

04 Feb 05 - 07:13 PM (#1399508)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo

*nods* Yup. :) And well you guys know my feelings on the matter. So God bless. We have to live our lives the best way we can. Susu and hubby I respect your devotion to your faith. If there's anything else you or anybody wish to ask about the LDS faith in particular I will be happy to talk about it. Because I do just honestly enjoy discussing such things. However I really am done with talking about it all in this thread. Okay? Okay. :) Peace be with you and all that good stuff

04 Feb 05 - 08:56 PM (#1399593)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

I want to thank everyone once again for their input on this subject. I do however; feel saddened by the fact that there were some who insensitively used this thread to make fun of those in the LDS church. And to Ray, in regards to your comment about me being a troll because I did not identify myself as being raised in the LDS church when I started this thread, please go back and re-read my second post which I made that fact clear. It was not my intentions to make anyone think that I did not have prior knowledge of the church and it's teachings so as soon as I realized that I omitted that and people may think I was investigating the church for possible membership, I rectified the situation by making my second post reflect my background. Also, my third post mentions that I was raised in the LDS church and that my father was the one with whom I have had disagreements with over this matter. I also would like to direct you to the post I made on 08 Jan 05 - 01:42 PM. In this post I thanked those who seriously responded to my inquiry, and voiced my disapproval to those who made fun of the members of the church. So, for you to call me a troll was not only uncalled for, but it makes me feel that you obviously are very sensitive about your beliefs. That is fine, I also would like for you to know that I have actually asked Joe about closing this thread on more than one occasion. Also on my post 30 Jan 05 - 07:37 PM, I mentioned that I would not mind this thread being closed. So before anyone else decides to call me a troll, re-read all my posts, you will then see that is not the case. Also, RAY, I do not doubt your sincerity when you wish anyone Christian love and I think it was rather hypocritical of you to state that I was not sincere. You do not know me, you cannot judge my heart, only God knows what is in everyone's heart and we are not to be judgmental. If I am not mistaken, the LDS church actually cautions people in judging others. Best to you, Susanne

05 Feb 05 - 02:54 AM (#1399793)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST

SUSU, why did you not do a simple google on the subject?

All the answers to your questions are there, you were caught out being disengenous.

A simple google like black mormons would yeild among other sites this,
http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/homepage.html and http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/SAQ.html
"SOME ANSWERED QUESTIONS
Regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints & People of Black African (Hamitic) Lineage"

It was uplifting to see that many did not use this as an excuse to bash my Church and I suspose the simple answer to your question was a simple the Church did not God did.

To qualify this, could the following be a simple example of Jesus being "Racist", or adhering to Gods law?

Jesus Himself considered Canaanites to be "dogs" (lowly servants) and under the "Curse of Canaan" instituted by Noah.

A Canaanite woman once came to Jesus and begged Him to heal her daughter:

"Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is greivously vexed with a devil.
But he answered he not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away;f or she crieth after us.
He answered, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
But he answered and said, It is not meet [proper] to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord; yet the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the master's table.
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith; be it unto thee even as thou wilt.
And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." (Matthew 15:20-26)

The answer to the situation is this "O woman, great is thy faith; be it unto thee even as thou wilt." Simply put this woman had so much faith in God that the curse on her lineage, which is a big factor with many religions, was over come due to her truely believing in God.

The same applies to "Black" people, Elijah Abel (1810-1884). He had so much faith in the Church that God allowed him to hold the priesthood and other offices.

We must understand that Elijah Abel acccepted the situation, as did others that the law pertains to. Which btw does not relate to skin color at all but blood, all of Elijah Abels's descendents are white.

To press the point the blue eyed blond may have been the one excluded if any of his ancestors had been black at any stage.

All this is out there for those genuinely interested, but posting such a question here makes me question your motives.

05 Feb 05 - 12:03 PM (#1399883)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Guest, because you cannot trust the intent of those who make websites on religious issues. I cannot vouch for any site except for those associated with LDS.org and I could not find anything on their website in regards to this matter. I am an extremely intelligent person and have already gone to all these sites and more prior to my post. Thank you. Susanne

05 Feb 05 - 12:20 PM (#1399897)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu

Okay, to all who "question my motives" I will say this, you DO NOT know me, I am not one to stir up trouble, this was a sincere inquiry and now I am sadly extremely sorry that I even posted this question. If I had wanted people to be ugly to me about my questioning the practices of the LDS church, I would have simply gone to my parents house so they could again tell me what a disappointment that I am to them because I do not share their views. I was wanting to get some other perspectives on the issue that would not lead to people making me feel bad for asking, and would give me answers that were not tainted with anger and disappointment so that I may better understand my parents and their beliefs and possibly bridge the distance and hurt feelings that they have. I have tried asking missionaries and they either do not have answers to my questions, or they seem to dance around the issues and then continually try to re-convert (for lack of a better phrase) me. The bishop at our local ward was the same way, and even my husband went to ask him questions, and he would not answer certain questions but would change the subject. I have never questioned the missionaries or the bishops motives in doing this as God, not I know their hearts and intentions. I think it is sad that I again have to expalin to someone why I do what I do. I really thought that if people read my posts that they would be able to understand them. This makes me wonder if all of you who "question my motives" are as cynical as you seem, thinking that all people who hear your beliefs and do not subscribe to them have some sort of hidden agenda. If that is the case, I feel truly sorry for you. I am not an evil person. My apologies to everyone. I will no longer post to this thread, if anyone else wants to keep it going, best of luck to you. If anyone else would like to ask me anything pm me, otherwise you will not get a response. Also, this is the end to my inquiring anything regarding the LDS church FROM ANYONE! If I meet anyone that is a member I will simply make it clear that I DO NOT wish to discuss their beliefs, I respect them, but I will not talk about them. Take care all, In Christs' Love Susanne

05 Feb 05 - 02:44 PM (#1399994)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST

"Guest, because you cannot trust the intent of those who make websites on religious issues. I cannot vouch for any site except for those associated with LDS.org"

Simple point, this was not a LDS rule dreamed up out of the ether, the reason I used the Bible was to prove the point that it is lineage not skin pigmentation.

As for the site those who put it up have backed up their claim with documented evidence,did you look at the grave stone pic?

The seventy are named in the Ensign and will be in Church records.

Lets hope that this puts an end to the racist issue.

"If I had wanted people to be ugly to me about my questioning the practices of the LDS church, I would have simply gone to my parents house so they could again tell me what a disappointment that I am to them because I do not share their views"

This speaks volumes to me. I understand where you come from, the pushing of doctine down your throat is not very nice. What frustrates me is the people who pontificate and put weird theories forward with some kind of authority.

I too have problems with the weird and wonderful statements people come out with, and the forceing of their will on others. More often than not these people display a great pride which is accompanied with ignorance.

More often than not many LDS forget the lesson Jesus taught us while on earth. He gave us the message of God but did not force us to accept it, many, LDS need to remember that, including your parents.

06 Feb 05 - 01:23 PM (#1400785)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Com Seangan

"whites are now allowed in the Nation of Islam. Probably for the same reasons".

Why is this silly statement made on this thread. Whites were always welcome in Islam. Also blacks. The black Balal was one of Mohammed's most faithful followers.

Denigrading anyone's else's religion only indicates our own narrow mind. It is not in the interests of peace and good will towards our fellow man.

07 Feb 05 - 12:19 PM (#1401635)
Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,RayB

Susu. I reacted the way I did, because both Pogo and myself felt as though we'd stated quite clearly that such a topic simply was not relevant. I stated outright that I was not casting judgement on you, but felt that your comments were loaded because of the specific nature of the questioning.

There's an intersting scripture in the book of mormon by Jacob 4:14 in which the Jacob explains how the Jews of his generation went awry.

verse 14. But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

The issue of Blacks and the Priesthood, or Polygamy, or any of the unusual doctrinal questions that have arisen from Kolob to whatever else you can dream up in order to fuel your doubts, is akin to God delivering unto men many things that which they cannot understand.

Do you honestly believe you can understand all things that come from God in this life?

Is there some scripture out there that garantees his followers a perfect understanding of all things in this life?

And if there is something that is some doctrinal question hidden under some rock somewhere, unturned and unexposed, why should it matter to how we must behave today?

Personally I'd much rather receive the light and knowledge required to get me through my generation, rather than dwell upon unanswered questions from forty years ago, but then, I'm in a different situation than you are...

That is why I spoke plainly about the issue. We were instructed at the time when the revelation came instructing all members to leave those old apologetics of Cain and such alone. They are irrelevant. Whether that is because they are false, or because they no longer apply or because they were distorted later by defensiveness or because they were misrepresented or for NONE of those reasons, WE DO NOT KNOW. It simply isn't a matter of public discourse, and anyone who tells you that they know the real definitive reason behind it is probably overstating themselves.

I've heard all sorts of reasons for it, in my day, including a very interesting story related to me by my Father-in-Law in which David O MacKay and the 12 had petitioned God to repeal the policy, and according to my father-in-law the answer they received was "Not yet, the Saints are not ready for the change."

It may be, thus, that the general membership of the church simply didn't care enough about the issue until all members were praying for an answer.

All of these things are supposition, and further they do not explain "WHY" such a policy was put in place, only that such a policy was taken seriously out of belief and respect for the way things were done in the past.

Does it bother you that mormons DON'T have all the doctrinal answers?

It is clear from the way that I explain this to you that I have opinions about this matter, but they are not doctrinal, nor are they relevant. I would exort you to forget anything you've been told about the seed of Cain or any such teachings, as they apply to mormons, because they are simply not a matter of interest or discours among mormons any longer, other than in the fringe cases where we run up against antimormon literature and those folks with an agenda who simply want to sew seeds of contention.

I called you a troll because after explaining how things work as best I knew, you "appeared to" (and I am more than willing to admit I may have read more into your text messages than you intended) completely disregard my comments and state that what I had written simply wasn't reality. My thoughts were, at the time, well if she knows reality and continues to ask the questions, then clearly she's a troll, because that's what trolls do... they know the answer before they ask it, they simply want to watch people squirm over what they perceive to be uncomfortable questioning.

And that is precisely why I called into question the matter of "Christian love". If you were raised mormon, they you must be aware of precisely how "christian love" has been used against mormons in the past. It was Christian love that killed many of the early members of the church, drove them from home after home, and spread intollerance. Preachers of intollerance, hiding behind the banner of christianity, pretending to do some great spiritual service in the name of God.

Quite frankly, I don't care who thinks I'm wrong in this, and who thinks I'm right. I am trying to live the restored Gospel according to my own understanding, and for mormons, much of their religion is as much about DOING as it is about some immutable dogma or belief structure.

We have no creeds; we have covenants.

We commit ourselves to live according to the laws we believe come from God, and to respect the authority from which came the restoration, believing that Christ will someday make all things known through the channels of revelation he has established in this age.

Thus when someone makes a big deal about a doctrine that is not taught in the church, it simply misses the point. As long as a member of the Mormon faith covenants to respecting the order of the restoration, it simply doesn't matter what they believe in terms of apologetic doctrines or notions.

That is why I encouraged you and anyone curious, in my first post, to acquaint themselves with LIVE mormons in their own communities. You will find a whole slew of beliefs and different takes, and at the same time they have a common belief structure in that they believe in the Book of Mormon as another Testament of Christ, they believe in the restoration of the Gospel through the prophet Joseph Smith, and they believe that there is a living prophet on the earth today, and that prophet is Gordon B. Hinckley. We believe that man must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized by one who holds the proper authority and then they will receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and must endure to the end...

And then more or less anything goes...

Sigh...

Perhaps I'm overstating this too. . .

My point is that Being mormon is more than explaining obscure doctrines. I have known many LDS who hold all sorts of weird opinions about all sorts of doctrines and history of the church. They are faithful in their religion not because of a belief. There is no mormon Nicene "creed of polygamy" for example... Instead there's merely our day to day life, trying to adhere to principles of scripture that lead us, line upon line, precept upon precept slowly back to our Father in Heaven.

Family is important to LDS, you were raised with this notion, and now you're at odds with your parents. I have no simple solutions for this, because your parents probably DO feel betrayed or saddened by your choice to abandon the faith they love. All I can say is that in your quest to justify your actions, don't go looking for "Dirt" on mormons. I hope it's obvious and I don't have to explain further why this is a terribly destructive way to go about mending your relationship. If you are intent upon patching things up, you should look for common ground, and ignore the rest.

You bet there's plenty of "dirt" on mormons, or catholics, or protestants, or evangelicals, and plenty of reasons to hate them all, but we all share a common belief in Christ, and I believe Christ does not want us fighting regardless of doctrines we hold most sacred.

I hope that you have success in reaching out to your family. I hope you will seek out the LDS community in your area and get to know a few mormons in THIS generation. If you do this, you'll find ways to let go of whatever frustrations you feel, and true healing will occur.

Best regards,

--Ray