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11 Jan 05 - 01:45 AM (#1376448) Subject: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Shanghaiceltic Nothing worse than cheerleaders making pyramids, just like putting a child on a leash for its own safety. Where the hell did this defence lawyer come from,,,, I will watch with interest. But can anyone tell me where I can watch US cheerleaders pile nekkid on top of one another? Iraqi prisoners 'treated no worse than cheerleaders' By Alec Russell in Washington (Filed: 11/01/2005) The lawyer for Charles Graner, the alleged ringleader of the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal, yesterday compared heaping naked Iraqi prisoners in a tangled pyramid to choreographed displays by high-school cheerleaders. "Don't cheerleaders all over America form pyramids six to eight times a year? Is that torture?" Guy Womack asked a 10-member military jury in Fort Hood, Texas. Charles Graner and Lynndie England at Abu Ghraib prison On the opening day of the court martial of the first of four soldiers accused of abusing Iraqis in the Baghdad jail, he also defended the tethering of prisoners on a leash as a legitimate method of control. "You're keeping control of them. A tether is a valid control to be used in corrections," he said. "You've probably been at a mall or airport and seen children on tethers - they're not being abused." America's reputation suffered a devastating blow last April with the publication of photographs of Graner, Pte Lynndie England, with whom he fathered a child, and others in their military police unit grinning beside Iraqis in humiliating poses. Charles Graner yesterday Among the more notorious pictures were those of Graner smiling and flashing a thumbs-up beside a tangled heap of naked Iraqis and of England, who also faces a court martial, casually tugging a crawling Iraqi on a leash. The latter was one of several of the infamous photographs shown by the prosecution yesterday in their opening arguments. Mr Womack said the soldiers took the photographs "because no one did anything they thought was wrong". The crux of the defence case is that Graner and his colleagues were merely following orders. "He was doing his job - following orders and being praised for it," Mr Womack said. Graner, 36, faces up to 17½ years jail on charges including mistreating detainees, dereliction of duty and assault. He has pleaded not guilty. The prosecution opened its case with a stark account of the charges against Graner relating to the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib in late 2003. Major Michael Holley, the chief prosecutor, said Graner beat a prisoner with a baton until the Iraqi begged for death, and forced men "to simulate fellatio". Specialist Matthew Wisdom testified that he felt "sick" when he witnessed some abuses. Four of seven members of Graner's unit, from the 372nd Military Police Company, have already pleaded guilty to abuse charges. Three have been jailed. Asked for his mood ahead of the court martial's opening Graner said: "It's been ups and downs but the ups have so outweighed the downs." A British soldier accused of ill-treating Iraqi prisoners in southern Iraq in May 2003 went on trial in Hohne, Germany yesterday. Fusilier Gary Bartlam, 19, is a member of 1 Bn, the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers based at Celle, near Hanover. Deputy Judge Advocate General Michael Hunter ordered that reporting of the details of the charges and the proceedings of the court martial be postponed for legal reasons. |
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11 Jan 05 - 09:17 AM (#1376528) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Amos Let me see if I understand this. If I order an army of people to go crashing through every town between here and the capital, shooting down the defenders, blowing up marketplaces and leaving hundreds of thousands dead or bleeding in the sand, I am NOT abusing them? How upside down have we grown in our path to caloused ignorance of everything? A |
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11 Jan 05 - 10:44 AM (#1376573) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Bill D "But can anyone tell me where I can watch US cheerleaders pile nekkid on top of one another?" sure...the WWW has lots of that....but if I remember right, no one forced them....or beat them when they didn't want to, or kept them awake for 3-4 nights between piling practice. Guy Womack's metaphors leave a LOT to be desired. |
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11 Jan 05 - 11:05 AM (#1376584) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Stilly River Sage Dismissing allegations with tepid comparisons. It's embarrassing to watch some of these court room tricks. |
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11 Jan 05 - 12:17 PM (#1376648) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Amos It's the opposite of the "invidious comaprison" trick where you are convinced your plans for world peace are worthless and insane because the last person you knew who was worthless and insane also had a plan for world peace. Cute trick, guaranteed to reduce creativity and make existence more sullen. A |
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11 Jan 05 - 02:27 PM (#1376806) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: GUEST Understand this.... Those soldiers were enjoying the way they treated those prisoners.... That is what was wrong about it.... Personal Enjoyment is sadistic, and not in anyway connected with what the military would term acceptable treatment of prisoners. As far as defining torture, every country has interrogation techniques that would be deemed inhuman. Sometimes it is vital to extract information; the preferred and expected methods the west uses are psychological rather than physical. I cannot say the same for the way our troops are treated by our enemies. Beheading kidnapped noncombatants is a measure of the inhumanity they are capable of. |
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11 Jan 05 - 05:59 PM (#1377017) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Jerry Rasmussen What's wrong with de fence? Jerry |
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11 Jan 05 - 06:10 PM (#1377022) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: GUEST Maybe we should have sent cheerleader troops in - many of the teams that compete nationally on ESPN - to cheering crowds, thereby winning the hearts of the liberated crowds. Just visualize them all cheerfully forming pyramids with big grins. Marines didn't sell it right. |
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11 Jan 05 - 06:11 PM (#1377023) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Bobert Ahhhh, not to change the subject but does anyone know anything about the prison life in Texas? I'd bet that everything that Bush has ordered out kids in Iraq to do to Iraqis have and/or have been done in Texas correctional (ha) faciilities... Bobert |
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11 Jan 05 - 06:27 PM (#1377037) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Stilly River Sage And drowning them is what ours are capable of. If you're going to try to defend a particular brand or flavor of torture, guest, you've chosen a debate you can't win. SRS |
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11 Jan 05 - 06:33 PM (#1377041) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Little Hawk Wars always involve horrific abuse of people...but it's not supposed to get photographed and later put in the papers! Gee, golly, no! Those fool soldiers weren't clever enough to realize that, and they will be the sacrificial victims tossed to the "justice system" and the media. Meanwhile, the unscrupulous men at the top who planned and organized this utterly illegal and wrongful oil war will go out to dinner in Washington and wear $500 suits. |
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11 Jan 05 - 07:33 PM (#1377076) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Rustic Rebel I 'm glad to see someone posted this info. Quite the defense huh? This is actually quite righteous. I don't believe they, who tortured, raped, and mistreated should get anything but a Mickey Mouse defense. Karma at it's finest. |
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11 Jan 05 - 08:43 PM (#1377120) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Bobert You obviously haven't shopped for a suit in the DC area lately, LH. $500 will get you a suit guarenteed to get you thrown out of any of the power resturants in DC. Guarenteed. But not to worry. When yer down in this area I'll take you to the joints where not only is the food and comapny better, but you can wear what you want. Promise. Bobert |
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12 Jan 05 - 02:18 AM (#1377258) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Donuel In this case the defense lawyer's job is to find Bush, Rumsfeld and Gonzales innocent. If it demands hanging his client, so be it. Its all a game... http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/football4.jpg |
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12 Jan 05 - 02:53 PM (#1377551) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: GUEST Not debating anything, just trying to give you some perspective. I dont condone this treatment of prisoners, nor would it happen under my command. The fact is, the army are not social workers and will use certain techniques to get results, those who actually enjoy doing it are sick people. |
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12 Jan 05 - 08:56 PM (#1377831) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: robomatic I'm sure it didn't escape notice what Graner's civilian job was. I'm sure a good prosecutor would do his research and maybe hear about some prisoner pile ups in the States. |
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13 Jan 05 - 12:16 AM (#1377935) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: LadyJean A friend of mine, who was an army interrogator says, "Torture is what you use if you want someone to confess that he's the Queen of England." Meaning that people will confess to anything under torture. |
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13 Jan 05 - 02:35 PM (#1378303) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: DougR Amos: you are recognized by many on the Mudcat as a scholar, and I certainly would not argue that point but perhaps you would share with me the title of your dictionary. Mine is evidently out of date. Nowhere could I find the word, "ignoral." Is it a new one? The word I mean. DougR |
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13 Jan 05 - 02:43 PM (#1378315) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Once Famous That is only a .49 word. Not a .50 one. BTW I do not recognize Amos as a scholar here. Just another extremely biased and very far left liberal who had to remove himself here for a while because his candidate for president lost. |
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13 Jan 05 - 06:25 PM (#1378529) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Bill D I see the right wing, having run out of points to make, is reduced to more insults and spell checking..... |
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13 Jan 05 - 06:39 PM (#1378541) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: Amos DougR: Your drooling sarcasm is showing. The only use of the word ignoral on this thread appears to be your own. But I did coin it as a back formation from ignorance. Sorry if the meaning is not self-evident. Puzzle on it a while and perhaps you will sort it out. It means an act of wilful or intentional ignoring, as distinguished from simply not knowing some fact or other. Intentional rather than incidental ignorance. It's what you bring to bear when the subject of Bush's follies is brought up, for example. A handy word, but no, nothing scholarly about it. I am not a scholar, just a widely curious and widely (if shallowly) read sorta guy. Martin: you are fabricating false realities again, pal. Grow up, won't you? A |
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14 Jan 05 - 12:48 AM (#1378776) Subject: RE: BS: Needed: A good defence lawyer... From: DougR Uh, Amos, did you address my question, or did I just not understand your reply? DougR |
