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13 Jan 05 - 03:01 PM (#1378342) Subject: BS: Californian mud slide From: jacqui.c I don't know a lot about the situation out there, but was watching the news last night when a small clip was shown of Arnie at the scene and discussing the situation. He said something to the effect that he had been told that the residents of the area were aware that it was not a totally safe place to live. To me the feeling came across that he felt that the residents were at least partially to blame for their situation for living in such a place. A number of questions occurred to me. For how long had people been aware of the possibility that such a catastrophic event might happen? Who decided that the area was safe to build on, and when was that decision made? Did local government issue a warning prior to houses going up for sale, that they might be in an unsafe area? What happens if, after a resident has bought a house, probably, unlike the governor, their only home, in an area is then found to be possibly unsafe, particularly if that possibility is then common knowledge? From the tenor of his voice, it appeared that Arnie was suggesting that these people had an alternative than to continue living in those houses. That sound bite just made me so mad, and still does, that I had to come in here and find out what other 'catters felt. |
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13 Jan 05 - 03:37 PM (#1378379) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: Peace jacquic, I feel badly for those who lost their lives and homes. However, please allow me to temper that with the following: 1) Towns and counties issue building and development permits. 2) Developers develop. 3) People buy. 4) Stuff happens. I understand there is a 'rule of disclosure' in some States. Regardless, people do buy knowing the possibility of slides is there. Many folks feel it will never happen to them. There are still people who will pitch a tent in an arroyo--because there hasn't been any rain for forty-two years. Surprise. I would never buy in a slide area or an area that has been 'reclaimed'. Many people do. BM |
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13 Jan 05 - 04:01 PM (#1378397) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: Don Firth It happens every year. Every year there are brush fires that denude the hillsides, at the same time, burning out dozens of homes. Then, a few months later when the rains come, there is no foliage to anchor the ground. It becomes saturated, turns to mud, and slides, wiping out a lot of the homes that the fires didn't get. Yet, people continue to build and live there. Most people who are burned out or mud-flooded out insist on rebuilding in the same location. A similar thing happens in Washington State where I live. There are areas in western Washington that flood almost every year. And they have all during recorded history, so people can hardly say they are not aware. Yet, real estate developers build houses on these flood plains (for some strange reason, land is cheap there), then proceed to sell the houses to people who are either gullible or pig-headed, or a combination of both. Neither California nor Washington seem to be able to get laws past preventing or discouraging people from building and living in those areas. Real estate developers seem to have pretty strong lobbies. But where, I wonder, are the insurance companies that wind up paying for all the damage? Perhaps they make more in inflated premiums than they lose in pay-outs, I don't really know. If Arnie sounded a bit exasperated and implied that it was their own damned fault for choosing to live there, he may very well be right. They can hardly claim that they were ignorant of what might happen. I believe it was Einstein who defined insanity as doing the same thing again and again while each time expecting a different result. Don Firth |
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13 Jan 05 - 04:41 PM (#1378427) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: kendall IF i had my way, every planning board would have at least one geologist as a member. But, that would interfer with the American way (Making money on suckers) |
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13 Jan 05 - 04:44 PM (#1378435) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: SINSULL Ancient History: Anyone remember Love Canal. The people who bought homes there signed an agreement that they would not hold anyone accountable for toxic waste that might or might not exist on the site. They paid with their families' health. What the hell were they thinking? |
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13 Jan 05 - 04:54 PM (#1378446) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: SINSULL Footnote: Love Canal has been renamed Black Creek and the houses, now "clean", sold to new owners. From the CNN article: "The New York State Department of Health says no conclusive evidence exists linking Love Canal to illness, a statement that many Black Creek Village residents agree with." http://www.cnn.com/US/9808/07/love.canal/ I don't wonder at AS's frustration. I guess we wait ten years and see how many children are born with birth defects, failing livers and kidneys, leukemia. |
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13 Jan 05 - 04:57 PM (#1378451) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: GUEST,Ebbie I'm in California at the moment- and for the next 8 or 10 days - traveling by train. Coming down from Seattle, I've spent almost as much time on buses as on trains because of mudslides, sinkholes and consequent derailments. The last I've heard, as of night before last there is no rail service in the Los Angeles-San Diego areas. Amtrak says that it may be two weeks before some of the lines open. I don't feel like complaining, because my inconveniences pale beside the hurt some of these people are suffering. If Amos checks in here, I'd love to give him a quick call in order to say HI! I'm in Escondido for the next few days. Juneau, Alaska also has some hazardous building sites within known avalanche chutes, especially one notorious one that cleans itself off about every thirty years. It last slid in 1973. Historically it is not the slide that does most of the damage but the high wind it creates. There is a local snow avalanche expert, Bill Glude, who thinks that it would save the city money if it bought the properties and then forbade any rebuilding in the areas. |
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13 Jan 05 - 06:01 PM (#1378510) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: John MacKenzie This bit from the NYT today really shows Arnies priorities. "Under an unusually clear and blue sky, Mr. Schwarzenegger, wearing a leather jacket, khakis and alligator boots embossed with his official seal, peered into a hole and spoke a few words of encouragement to rescue workers whose hands were chapped and bloody from digging through the hardening clay." Embossed alligator boots, fer christ's sake! Giok |
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13 Jan 05 - 07:10 PM (#1378587) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: Lanfranc Having survived a couple of (very minor) earthquakes in LA in my time, I still wonder that millions choose to make their homes in an area as geologically unstable as California. Come to that, the millions who live in and around Naples in Italy, in the shadow of Vesuvius and with the remains of Pompeii and Herculanium to remind them of the fate that could await them, must be amazingly fatalistic. And Tokyo, and ... It must be assumed that a substantial proportion of mankind has a deathwish, or at least a desire to live dangerously. Alan |
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13 Jan 05 - 07:43 PM (#1378619) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: Mudlark And the entire Midwest, inundated every year, not just occasionally, with deadly tornados. Malaria was a problem in New Orleans until DDT came along, now that's the problem. California has not just earth quakes, wild fires, mud slides it also is hit with crippling drought. I would not live at the base of a CA coastal foothill (soil structure famous for giving way when saturated), or in a tight wooded canyon, but avoiding risk entirely is difficult. The best one can do is prioritize and try to make reasonable choices. I agree that in a sane and just world responsible social policy would forbid building on questionable land. A world run by elephants, maybe. |
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13 Jan 05 - 09:57 PM (#1378695) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: dianavan From what I understand, this is not the first slide in that area. Following the first slide, residents asked the city planners to terrace the hillside to protect their homes. It was thought to be too costly which makes you wonder how much this new slide has cost in emergency rescue alone. There are homes everywhere that are in danger of earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, forest fires, etc. It is not so easy to sell after a natural disaster. Who would buy? How many people have enough money to walk away and start over? |
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14 Jan 05 - 11:33 AM (#1378956) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: Gypsy No, the last slide was as recent as 1995. At that time, the homeowners sued the owner of an orchard atop the bluff for watering his trees too much, and causing the slide! And currently, homeowners in that community have to sign a liability waiver with the county to live there. They KNOW that it is dangerous. Any native californian knows that it is dangerous........i wouldn't VISIT a home at the foot of a bluff, much less live there. That said, it really doesn't make a difference does it? There is still death, and pain involved. My heart goes out to these people right now. Kinda like the Oakland Fire (which in CA you say with capitol letters)We have eucalyptus on our property too, we just keep in 100 feet away from the buildings. (which is about how tall the trees are) |
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14 Jan 05 - 11:42 AM (#1378961) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: Little Hawk As has been said before, the love of money is the root of all evil. Aside from that, such disasters have occurred since time imemorial and will continue to...because as long as there is a piece of land and someone to build a house on it, people will build there and people will move in and live there, regardless of risk. They figure it'll happen to "the other guy", not to them. And to look at it from the other angle...the only way to be TOTALLY safe from all the things that might go wrong in life is to kill yourself right now! Then nothing out there can get you. |
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14 Jan 05 - 12:24 PM (#1379001) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: GUEST,leeneia an engineering geologist once told me that slides in California occur where bedding (thick layers) and the fissility (very thin layers) of the San Francisco shale both slope downhill. When rain or snowmelt wet and lubricate this huge, downtilted mass of broken, hardened clay, a slide may occur. (I stand prepared to learn that there are other rock units behind slides, but this type of explanation is at least a good beginning.) It shouldn't be that hard to determine where these slopes are, given geologic maps and the help of the state geololgic survey, which is only a phone call away. However, for decades American schools have shied away from any serious teaching of earth science because of the political power of fundamentalists. Hence we get perfectly normal people who think that their water comes out of underground lakes and that California is floating on the sea. Just last week I heard another one. We had a day of 70-degree weather(Hawaiian type, for those of you who use Celsius), and a bus driver, who had moved from San Francisco, said that this weather would make people afraid in SF, because it would warm up the fault and might trigger an earthquake. This fear is not realistic at all, but it is sad to think that people have such fear gnawing at them for no reason. |
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18 Jan 05 - 10:24 AM (#1381289) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: GUEST,marceshia elliott How did you get throw the mud slide? |
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18 Jan 05 - 10:27 AM (#1381291) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: GUEST,marceshia elliott the mud slide was a tragike moment for you . |
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18 Jan 05 - 11:24 AM (#1381341) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: Amos Ebbie: See PM -- sorry I didn't read this earlier! A |
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18 Jan 05 - 04:44 PM (#1381654) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: Kim C I don't think it matters where you live - anything can happen anytime, whether it's a mudslide, earthquake, tsunami, tornado, flood, hurricane, whatever. No place is immune to natural disasters. Has there been any sort of aid effort for the mudslide victims? |
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18 Jan 05 - 06:07 PM (#1381737) Subject: RE: BS: Californian mud slide From: open mike i thoguht i had posted this already but i do not see it here..so again: ********************* Dear music friends, Although you may or may not be aware of it, the recent catastrophic mudslide in La Conchita has seriously injured and permanently displaced two of our favorite humans on earth (and long-time music supporters,) Nadine Bunn and Cheryl Chako of Folk Mote Music in Santa Barbara. For nearly 30 years Cherie & Nadine have been there for us -- the musical community -- and we hope that now we can be there for them. At the time of this mail, Nadine is recovering from surgery in hospital in Santa Barbara and facing another surgery Thursday. Cherie is recovering from broken bones/abrasions, lacerations, etc, in hospital in Ventura. Their house in La Conchita is history. In a scene that could only be reminiscent of the worst of Hollywood's nightmare movies, their home collapsed into a wall of mud, and the both of them lay crumpled and injured inside the rubble until located and dug out by the local Fire and Rescue. Of course it might have been worse -- there have been at least ten fatalities there, and our hearts naturally go out to the families of those whose lives were not saved. Thankfully Nadine and Cherie are both still here amongst us. To those of you in the local music community: please be aware that preparations are already afloat for a benefit concert. The music store continues to operate -- Ed Rockett, Laurie Rasmussen and myself are seeing to that, with help from many other good people. In the meantime, Nadine and Cherie's home, possessions and vehicles are gone, and the medical bills cannot even be speculated upon. If anyone would care to help financially in any way, large or small, please know that an account has been established at Washington Mutual that is strictly for Cherie and Nadine's benefit and access. Donations may be dropped off at any Washington Mutual branch; or we at Folk Mote (or Jan upstairs at Santa Barbara Sheet Music) can pass donations along to their account. Tom Lee's Song Tree Concert Series is another possible drop-off point. The account number to deposit to is 1803082584. Checks could be made payable to either Cherie Chako or Nadine Bunn. To those of you receiving this who are too far away to participate: please be aware that cards, notes of good wishes, etc, would also be most welcome... their address is: Folk Mote Music, 1034 Santa Barbara St., Santa Barbara CA 93101 USA. More details to follow. In the meantime, no matter what your religious persuasions (or lack thereof,) we hope that you might please find a way to include Nadine & Cherie in your prayers / good thoughts / well wishes. Folk Mote is at http://www.folkmote.com/ this was posted by Tom Ball he and Kenny Sultan are a wonderful duo. Tom plays harmonica and Kenny plays guitar. http://www.folkmote.com/book-1.html |