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01 Feb 05 - 09:12 AM (#1395549) Subject: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST,star strangled banner inevitable, inescapeable,in our life time ??? |
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01 Feb 05 - 09:25 AM (#1395569) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Pied Piper I think it's unlikely; after all it's never mentioned in Star Trek. PP |
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01 Feb 05 - 09:36 AM (#1395586) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Donuel The major hostilities have come to an end but the original war of the mindsets wages on. |
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01 Feb 05 - 11:16 AM (#1395683) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: McGrath of Harlow Maybe it's more of an American Uncivil War, and it's currently under way? |
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01 Feb 05 - 11:29 AM (#1395696) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Rapparee Oh, fer...! |
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01 Feb 05 - 11:32 AM (#1395699) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Can we do East against the West this time? I hate repeats. |
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01 Feb 05 - 11:38 AM (#1395703) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Jim Tailor 'twill all be staged "virtually" this time. |
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01 Feb 05 - 04:10 PM (#1396018) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: robomatic No thanks, Guest, we already had one, but thanks for the thought. |
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01 Feb 05 - 04:17 PM (#1396020) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Teresa Hmmm. Frightening thought, but as long as we can wage free speech on the Internet and in public discourse, I think folks will vent their spleens in a somewhat-less dangerous way. If speech or action is driven underground, that's when it gets more dangerous. I have to concede that much about the U.S. we still have some semblance of free speech at the moment. Teresa |
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01 Feb 05 - 06:04 PM (#1396124) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST,Frank It's going on now. Pat Buchanan called it a "culture war" and it's very much in evidence. The election of Bush indicates this. It's the smallest margin of victory by any president ever. Don't forget that there are many who live in the supposed "Red States" that did not vote for Bush. The "Red/Blue" thing was a newscaster construction and has no real validity. Frank |
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01 Feb 05 - 06:11 PM (#1396140) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Teresa Thank you, Frank. I live in Nevada and didn't vote for Bush. :> Teresa |
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01 Feb 05 - 06:16 PM (#1396144) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Amos It will be between those who believe in the freedom of memes and those who wish to be held captive by theirs, or to hold theirs captive, qwhichever comes first. A |
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01 Feb 05 - 06:17 PM (#1396145) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Little Hawk Spectacular insight, Pied Piper! Gold star for you! :-) Actually, the American 2-party $ySStem IS a war...one which fights repeated useless and almost meaningless battles for the minds and hearts of America every 2 and 4 years. And the whole exercise is merely to dupe people into imagining that they have a choice and a voice in running their country. They most certainly do NOT. They are a controlled and regulated population, spoonfed on a diet of unreality from the cradle to the grave. Lincoln said, "You can't fool all the people all the time." But if you can fool most of them, that's good enough for the $ySStem to maintain itself in power. The best way to keep them fooled is to divide them against one another through the 2-party $ySStem, and give them a foreign "enemy" to fear and fight. Works every time. |
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01 Feb 05 - 06:20 PM (#1396149) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Bobert Depends on whether or not the Repub ideologues have finally stacked the deck so perminently as to prevent the usual swings in the pedulum. With their illegeal redisrrictings and Election brought to you by Diebold, this may have allready occured. If so, what I see is about 2 more election cycles and Dems will get fed up and become radicalized, much the way the Repubs are now: radicalized... Will this produce Civil War? Probably not, but what may very well happen is assasinations by redicalized lefties against the Repub. idelogues, much the way the right wing offed so many lefties in the 60's... And this should get the stuck pendulum swinging back toward progressive solutions... Sad to have to come to that but, hey, greedy folks don't back away from the trough until they are nudged... Bobert |
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01 Feb 05 - 06:24 PM (#1396154) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Bee-dubya-ell Thank you, Frank. I live in Florida and didn't vote for Bush. I was told in college that America's Civil War is a misnomer. It wasn't technically a civil war. It was a revolution. Don't ask me the difference. I'm sure those academic types know more about such things than a lowly potter/guitar player. Seems sorta like splittin' hairs or pickin' the fly shit outta the pepper to me. Revolution... Civil war... Doesn't make much difference what ya call it if you're on the wrong end of a bullet. |
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01 Feb 05 - 06:33 PM (#1396172) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Little Hawk Yes, you could say it was a revolution, launched by Southerners, who saw their political and financial power being lost to the industrialized and more populous North and wanted out. The revolutionaries lost that one. |
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01 Feb 05 - 06:43 PM (#1396191) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Bobert Ahhhhh, LH, it wasn't strictly a revoultion by Southerners. Lincoln certainluy pushed one button after after another. He could have prevented it but choze, much like Bush has in Iraq, to promote it... And, Civil? As Bee-Dubya-Ell has reminded us, it wasn't. I live 20 miles from Antietum Battlefield where the bloodiest day of the war occured.... Once a year they light a candle for every man who died that day... Nothing civil about it.... Bobert |
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01 Feb 05 - 07:03 PM (#1396226) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: McGrath of Harlow The first American Civil War surely was the war of secession generally referred to as the American Revolution. |
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01 Feb 05 - 07:35 PM (#1396267) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Little Hawk Well, yes, that is also true. No, wait, the first North American Civil War was the French and Indian War...with the French and Hurons on one side, the English and Iroquois on the other (and some other Indians were involved too). |
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01 Feb 05 - 07:41 PM (#1396274) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Richard Bridge As soon as possible please (ducks) |
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01 Feb 05 - 07:48 PM (#1396282) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: pdq Ron Olesko - We can make this a bloodless 'war' if your side will agree to take both Newark and Hackensack. And we want that in writing! |
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01 Feb 05 - 11:27 PM (#1396492) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Auggie Just take Bush and we'll learn to live with Hackensack, Newark, and even East St. Louis |
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01 Feb 05 - 11:37 PM (#1396498) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Kaleea Umm, hows'z about if some of us in the radical center encourage others to join us in the radical center for some nice polite Musical fun. Then maybe some of the folks who are way out in the left or right OOPS I mean red & blue will come in from the hot & cold & play some Music along with us. Pretty soon, maybe folks'd be havin' too much fun to go back out in the hot & cold all the time to stay & they'd just hang around with us in the radical center. Well, I can dream, can't I. |
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01 Feb 05 - 11:38 PM (#1396500) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Little Hawk What about Schenectady? |
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02 Feb 05 - 12:33 AM (#1396545) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Bert Then there's Dalhart and Dumas, we'll give those over without a fight. Might just hang on to Texline though. |
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02 Feb 05 - 01:13 AM (#1396573) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Sorcha Do we get guns for fee? Do we get to shoot at the red states? Uh Oh, the FBI will find me for this. |
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02 Feb 05 - 02:06 AM (#1396590) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: DougR Some folks really know how to start a funny thread. DougR |
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02 Feb 05 - 02:15 AM (#1396592) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: beardedbruce Sorcha, Sorry, the Left has traditionally been AGAINST Second Amendment rights, so only the conservatives get to be armed.... But they can try to talk the Right to death... You will be a victim of unintended circumstances. Bobert, ". He (Lincoln) could have prevented it but choze, much like Bush has in Iraq, to promote it..." So you think that Bush is acting like Lincoln? Next thing you know, you'll be comparing the invasion of Iraq to the sending of Federal troops into the South during the Civil Rights demonstrations... Forcing unwanted laws on a proud and independent people... ( sarcasm) |
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02 Feb 05 - 03:22 PM (#1396932) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Big Al Whittle Don't envy the casting director, Bush as Jefferson Davis presumably, who gets to play Honest Abe? |
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02 Feb 05 - 03:26 PM (#1396944) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Big Al Whittle Don't envy the casting director, Bush as Jefferson Davis presumably, who gets to play Honest Abe? |
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02 Feb 05 - 06:03 PM (#1397154) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Tannywheeler Bert, remember that Dumas is full of Ding-Dong-Daddies. They are famous for NOT giving up without a fight. And the folks in Dalhart (Dumas, too, actually) get inured to hardships because they get serious, Great Plains winters and have to survive them. Don't Mess With Texas, guys. Tw |
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02 Feb 05 - 06:18 PM (#1397167) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: McGrath of Harlow But now that Kinky Friedman is running for Governor of Texas things change... |
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02 Feb 05 - 06:30 PM (#1397178) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Tannywheeler I'm all for Da Kinkster. I know he's doing it (partly) because he needs more closet space. But I have trouble seeing him in the Greek Revival gov's mansion in downtown Austin. It'll be easier when he has to move in, I suppose.... Tw |
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02 Feb 05 - 07:41 PM (#1397259) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Greg F. Bit premature. The first one's still being carried on south of Maryland. |
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02 Feb 05 - 08:02 PM (#1397276) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: mg Little Hawk, you freely insult some decent people. mg |
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02 Feb 05 - 08:19 PM (#1397286) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Bert Just kidding Tw! It's just that you drive through the panhandle looking for a town and when you get there, it's Dalhart. |
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03 Feb 05 - 07:39 PM (#1398391) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Little Hawk I am not against Second Amendment rights, BB, and I am very much on the Left. I would never dream of comparing the invasion of Iraq to the sending of Federal troops into the South during the Civil Rights demonstrations... I compare it to the invasion of Poland in '39. Poland was not all that democractic at the time, but it was innocent of being any real threat to Germany, and it was massively attacked under false pretences by the German armed forces and government. Ordinary Germans (decent people on the whole) were mostly convinced that there had to be a good reason for it... Mary? Really? Which decent people in particular? There are a great many decent people out there, after all... Most people are decent people, I find. They deserve better leadership than they are getting. |
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03 Feb 05 - 07:47 PM (#1398402) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: number 6 tomorrow. Then again maybe not. sIx |
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03 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM (#1398414) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: PoppaGator If there were much of any possibility of a shooting war, it'd already be on. Propaganda war, "culture war," and terrorism/assasination are all so much easier and more effective. Also, we do still have open discourse ("free speech"), and ~ although it sometimes seems feeble in contrast to corporate-sponsored mass media propaganda ~ it cannot be stopped in the Age of Communication. That's one reason I'm basically optimistic about the long-term future, even though I'm skeptical and somewhat curmudgeonly about many immediate issues. |
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03 Feb 05 - 08:13 PM (#1398440) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Peace America may be in the midst of one now. There seems to be a concerted effort to 'win the hearts and minds' (which I interpret to mean the "votes" (I am aware the election is over and that President Bush won)) of the American people. I expect there will be some softening of the Bush pre-election position, and I expect that both parties will give some effort to reach a greater percent of the American people. Regardless of the way anyone voted, I think all parties--and subsequently all people--will have to take a good look at the condition of the United Staes: its social programs and its war footing/mentality. The center cannot hold. The USA cannot keep spending money the way it is, because the American people are gradually becoming unwilling to see their cash wasted in that manner--that is, squandered. The USA, IMO, is a great nation, but the philosophy that got it to greatness has to be looked at again, refreshed and reiterated. Despite one's feeling about Bush/Kerry/Nader, the problems the world faces will require American leadership, and Americans should gird themselves to be compassionate leaders. If they do not, they will face a reluctant enemy that goes beyond the Muslim world--that includes other democracies, because the bully mentality, obfuscation, BS and lies are becoming quite transparent. When a great nation's motives are not clear, people get very nervous. I don't doubt that the US could control most of the world; in fact, it does. But much of that control depends on the willing participation of allies, other countries with similar aims, and the coalition just ain't all that solid and unified right now. If the factions could step back from the vitriol, they might find ways to work together that involve a cooperative approach to problem solving, because the "I have this stick and I will beat you with it if you don't do as I say" mentality no longer cuts it. I think over the next few years that the people of the US will have to face that. Otherwise, there likely will be a civil war that follows not party lines but poverty lines. Is is disgraceful that the richest country on Earth has homeless people, hungry people and people for whom there is either no medical care of poor medical care. Bush/Kerry/Nader should all feel terrible about that. Yes, the election is over, but the things which scar the greatest country in the world continue to exist, and that, my friend, is ugly. |
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03 Feb 05 - 08:20 PM (#1398448) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Tannywheeler Boyhowdy--step back from the vitriol!!!! There's a PLAN -- for living, imho. Tw |
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04 Feb 05 - 05:45 AM (#1398734) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: McGrath of Harlow Boyhowdy? |
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04 Feb 05 - 12:18 PM (#1399035) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Big Al Whittle Good to know TW, hope you're following the plan |
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04 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM (#1399241) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Azizi A friend of mine told me that she overheard two women on the bus talking about the difficulties that they experience. One of them said "Girl, I had a nervous breakdown, but I was too busy to pay much attention to it". I'm no psychologist, but it sure seems to me that the United States is in the midst of an ethical breakdown. And I wonder if this nation is already involved in a Civil War between the rich and poor, but most people are too busy to take notice because their attention has been diverted by Superballs & shopaholic holidays & other 'take-their-minds-of-the-real-deal' stuff.. I'm just sayin... Ms. Azizi |
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04 Feb 05 - 03:31 PM (#1399274) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: DougR No doubt aboout it, Azizi, the sky is truly falling. Some of us just have difficulty recognizing it. DougR |
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04 Feb 05 - 03:35 PM (#1399280) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Peace Doug, ya gotta have somethin' better than a quote from Chicken Little. G A W D. |
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04 Feb 05 - 03:41 PM (#1399283) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Peace DougR, This may come as a surprise: not all people are as fortunate of you. Maybe you think the poverty that happens is what people deserve. I do not agree. Sometimes things are beyond one's control. Most poor people do not have a friggin' choice. Next time you speak with your heart--ask it if poverty is a choice people willingly opt for. Bruce M |
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04 Feb 05 - 03:51 PM (#1399290) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Little Hawk If Doug R had been born as an impoverished black or hispanic or "poor white trash" kid...in a 3 room tenement full of cockroaches...with an alcoholic father who beats up mother and kids on a regular basis...and a mother who's addicted to some drug...and a neighborhood where you join the local gang if you want to avoid getting beaten up all the time...and the local gang trains you to fight, deal crack, mug people, and steal... What would Doug R be doing today? Would he even vote? I doubt it. He probably wouldn't have his mind much on political or ethical issues. Ms Azizi, you have it right. |
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04 Feb 05 - 04:57 PM (#1399372) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Azizi One rather widely used saying in the 1990s which some of you may have heard went like this: "It's a Black thang, you wouldn't understand". I would suggest that "It's a people thing" and that too few understand because they don't have the heart to try. Ms. Azizi PS: Thank you Brucie and Little Hawk for your heartfelt words.. |
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04 Feb 05 - 05:52 PM (#1399418) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: McGrath of Harlow The trouble with Chicken Little is the same as the Little Boy who Cried Wolf. Sometimes there really is a wolf, and sometimes the sky really does fall, near enough. I imagine when Bush was getting all those warnings about how there was going be a massive terrorist assault within the USA, he might have quoted Chicken Little. |
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05 Feb 05 - 04:16 PM (#1400075) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST,wdyat12 Today! Already happening! Go to airamericaradio.com. The Randi Rhodes Show on 870AM radio or the internet. Be part of the civil insurection! wdyat12 |
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05 Feb 05 - 04:55 PM (#1400109) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST,Frank Teresa and B-Dubya-El, Your welcome. I too live in a so-called "red" state and we are very active here in opposition to the current Il Duce Bushoulini. I wish that the next victory will be at the ballot box, that is if we can overcome the tyranny of Diebold. The red state, blue state thing was concocted by the newscasters during the 2001 election as if it meant something. There were plenty of Bush supporters in New Hampshire, a good share in Massachusetts and New York. There were plenty of Kerry supporters in Florida, Georgia, and even South Carolina. There are plenty of Harvard grads working as Neo-cons and many from Southern and Southwestern colleges and universities who were active in the Kerry campaign. The way the news media works today (and it is not a liberal one..it's time to to put an end to that lie) is that they love to create a fight and then hold your coat. Well-meaning liberal folks from the rural US get slammed by cynical anchor men and women. If you ask them for responsible journalism, forget it. Frank |
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05 Feb 05 - 05:10 PM (#1400120) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST yer fighting every other bugger may as well fight among yerselves |
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19 Apr 05 - 04:56 PM (#1465729) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Susu's Hubby Oh....let's bring back this subject. Here's something else that you liberals can tear each other up over. I heard it on your conspiracy theory network.....coast to coast AM. Hubby Here's another viewpoint |
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19 Apr 05 - 10:30 PM (#1466006) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Peace Yo, bro--when ya shoot somethin' down, do it right! Takes about 10 seconds to load. |
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20 Apr 05 - 03:35 PM (#1466506) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: robomatic We did such a GOOD job on our first civil war that we won't need another! The United States IS. Now go play with your Euros. |
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20 Apr 05 - 03:40 PM (#1466511) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Peace Three years. Tops. |
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20 Apr 05 - 05:29 PM (#1466572) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: John Hardly The game is afoot! I heard that one of those grand conspiracy guys who finances political campaigns is already financing informal (practice?) Constitutional Conventions. This time around we're not going to do that blue and grey thing though. I think we're going to have uniforms designed by the "Queer Eye For The Straight Guy" guys. They promise to be far more stylish than the first uniforms were -- PLUS no wool!!!. All that scratchy discomfort won't be adding to the discomfort of war. And we're promised better food this time -- and absolutely nobody gets limbs sawed off with a dull saw. But we'll keep the morphine. We liked that one first time around and it made for some great folk music like Soldier's Joy. And I think we'll fight the war via reality show. We'll have teams of four guys chosen to represent both sides. No guns! The goal will be to shame and embarrass the other side into surrender. It's going to be tough though. How do you embarrass a redneck? ...and have you seen east and west coast fashion? --no way could you embarrass anyone who dresses like that. |
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20 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM (#1466576) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: John Hardly My wife just told me that she won't be wearing a hoop skirt either this time around. |
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20 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM (#1466581) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Once Famous Hey, it's like a rerun of I Love Lucy It's Liberal hand wringing time, brought to you by Al Franken. Airamerica can't even get an outlet in Chicago. Oh, wasn't that a blue state? No one is listening. However, there are 300 radio stations, many 50K watters in big markets thankfully airing Michael Savage. No, thank you Frank. I live in a blue state and this time did not vote Democratic. And thankfully, we do not have Frankenstein for President with his multi-zillionair wife. Maybe I'll vote Democratic next election, if they can get a candidate who maybe will piss off socialists like yourself. |
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20 Apr 05 - 06:20 PM (#1466608) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST Ann Coulter is amongst us! what a pathetic stupid bombastic bitch! |
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20 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM (#1466612) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: DougR I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen. DougR |
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20 Apr 05 - 06:26 PM (#1466617) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: DougR Which reminds me, many of you folkies were predicting prior to the elections in Iraq that the country would be ravaged by Civil War before elections took place. Is it over yet? Yeah, thread creep I know. DougR |
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20 Apr 05 - 10:22 PM (#1466752) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST, Ebbie Better not get into the subject of predictions, Doug. Remember the predictions you made as to the possibility of making war on Iraq? |
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20 Jun 07 - 07:40 AM (#2082020) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Big Al Whittle I'm sure its a bargain, but I wouldn't fight a civil war over it. |
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20 Jun 07 - 01:33 PM (#2082366) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: kendall I don't know how I missed this one. Bobert, how did Lincoln help bring on the Civil War? |
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20 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM (#2082389) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: MMario Neither the French and Indian War or the War of American Independence were "civil" wars as based on the definition. Nor, Was the American Civil War - as it was fought tyo succede (sp?) and to class as a civil war it would need to have been fought to gain control of the whole country rather then form their own independent country. And "Civil" as in war - has nothing to do with "civil" as in polite. they are actuallly two differnt |
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20 Jun 07 - 02:39 PM (#2082433) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: McGrath of Harlow I'd agree about the French and Indian War - but for the others, one side may have viewed it as a war of independence/secession, but the other would have seen it as a Civil War. In these kind of cases it is the outcome that determines what it's called. "War of Independence" if the secessionists win, "Civil War" if they fail. |
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20 Jun 07 - 02:43 PM (#2082435) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: MMario no - technically if one side is fighting for *independent* rule rather then to take over/govern the entire country it is not a "civil" war. |
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20 Jun 07 - 03:47 PM (#2082484) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: McGrath of Harlow But in the American Revolutionary War surely both sides were fighting to control "the whole country". (The Colonies were not part of the United Kingdom.) |
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20 Jun 07 - 04:29 PM (#2082527) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST,TIA "Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:26 PM Which reminds me, many of you folkies were predicting prior to the elections in Iraq that the country would be ravaged by Civil War before elections took place. Is it over yet?" Shall we really answer this now? Hooboy. |
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20 Jun 07 - 05:05 PM (#2082557) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: kendall I'm one of them. If this isn't a civil war, I don't know what is. |
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20 Jun 07 - 05:09 PM (#2082560) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe What if the South had won?? |
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20 Jun 07 - 07:07 PM (#2082664) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Riginslinger If the South had won, there would be more people of African descent in North America today than there are people of European descent. |
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21 Jun 07 - 07:33 AM (#2082947) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe More servants to go round? |
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21 Jun 07 - 07:41 AM (#2082957) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: kendall Strom Thurmond would have been president. SHUDDER |
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21 Jun 07 - 08:01 AM (#2082976) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST,St. Utter I thothought the secession was wowhere you poplay infoformally? |
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21 Jun 07 - 09:22 AM (#2083027) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: KB in Iowa Bobert, where are you? Please see kendall's question from above: "Bobert, how did Lincoln help bring on the Civil War? " I have wondered this as well. |
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21 Jun 07 - 11:22 AM (#2083136) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: KB in Iowa BTW, Bobert, I'm not itching for an argument. I have read several comments by you alluding to this and have wondered about it. I am interested in some specifics. |
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21 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM (#2083247) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: McGrath of Harlow "If the South had won, there would be more people of African descent in North America today than there are people of European descent." How do you make that out, Riginslinger? I don't think there'd have been any possibility of them starting up the Atlantic Slave Trade again, even if they'd wanted to. Slave Traders were classed as pirates in law internationally, and they'd have been treated as pirates. |
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21 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM (#2083413) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Riginslinger Slavery would have spread to most of the western states, at least those where slavery was a workable form of labor. And why wouldn't they have started up the slave trade again? Some 1860's George Bush could have gotten elected, and they would have simply ignored the laws. |
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21 Jun 07 - 06:10 PM (#2083476) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Ebbie I didn't realize -or internalize - until recently that slave importing was against the law all over the US and had been for some time. The law, however, had no teeth (President Buchanan (president preceding Lincoln) said publicly that he would never convict a slaver) and so everybody did pretty much what they wanted. In the South, of course, they perceived a need for the trade- their economy demanded cheap labo(u)r and a lot of it. The industrialized North didn't have that need and evidently the abolitionist movement found fertile ground there. |
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21 Jun 07 - 08:09 PM (#2083574) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: McGrath of Harlow I think it is pretty certain that the British Navy would have made a resumption of the slave trade impossible. Especially since this would have been extremely popular in the country. And in fact slavery, especially the American version, was a very inefficient form of labour. |
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22 Jun 07 - 12:15 AM (#2083700) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Ebbie Inefficient perhaps, but cheap. I've seen some of the slave housing-not much money put into it, trust me - in Virginia, the ones I saw and lived with (one in Stuarts Draft, the other close to Staunton)had packed dirt floors; if all you had to provide was food - and some of the slaves grew their own gardens - and most of the clothing they wore they wove themselves, there wasn't all that much outgo. |
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22 Jun 07 - 04:11 AM (#2083778) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Naemanson There will be no civil war. To have a civil war you have to have enough people who CARE! We don't have it. Most Americans slop up the crap fed to them in sound bites from the TV and think all is well. |
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22 Jun 07 - 12:23 PM (#2084122) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Mrrzy I"m waiting for the war between the reasonable and the fundies... that would test my pacifism to the limit! |
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22 Jun 07 - 04:20 PM (#2084343) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Riginslinger "And in fact slavery, especially the American version, was a very inefficient form of labour." That's true, and it's a lot like the labor of illegal aliens today. In a short period of time, their labor will no longer be needed and the goverment will be stuck with the support of them. |
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22 Jun 07 - 05:34 PM (#2084405) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Donuel For a civil war we would need a tad more strident policies: like putting beer on the controlled substances list or requiring a Christian loyalty oath to work or buy food. |
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22 Jun 07 - 06:00 PM (#2084433) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: GUEST,Spidey Bobe Or Bush getting caught having a blow job?? |
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22 Jun 07 - 08:43 PM (#2084520) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Bobert Ahhhhh, sorry, folks.... I have been way too busy workin' and having busted computer and didn't realize that I was being beckoned... But now that I am beckoned.... Okay, it should be obvious to anyone somewhat familiar with American history that the Civil War (which it wasn't) happened under Lincoln's watch... With that painfully obvious fact, it would have taken a **great*** leader to avert the War for Southern Independence... A leader who was willing to take the trip to Charleston, S.C.... A leader not so full of testesterone and sabre rattling that he wouldn't have made it a ***point*** to try to resupply Fort Sumpter... This is what great leaders do... Lincoln was the Goerge Bush of his time... He didn't make every effort to sooth... He allowed the country to split at the seems... This is not what great leaders do... I do not glorify a single battle of death of this debackle... This was the US's greatest failure... I don't go to the battlefields because it disgusts me... I do not buy into this glory thing... There was no glory in seeing Americans killing Americans... Lincoln could have averted this... He even could have sat down with Jefferson Davis and said, "Okay, let's talk..." He didn't... Just like Bush won't talk with Hammas... Or the Syrians.... Pride??? Yeah... Stubborness??? Yeah... War has never solved any single problem... Thay all end with one side figuring out that it should have talked with the other... No exceptions here... Lincoln made the historically incorrect decison... You folks may want to glorify the heck outta the War for Southern Independence-Civil War but 20,000 Americans were either killed or wounded at Antietam in one day by other Americans... Yeah, anyone who wants to believe in the mythology that Lincon was a great leader, have at it... ...but leave thias hillbilly ouuta the Lincoln/ Civil War worship band wagon... I'll walk, thank you... Bobert |
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23 Jun 07 - 10:17 AM (#2084830) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Riginslinger Bobert - I agree with the spirit of what you say. It was a terrible tragedy. |
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23 Jun 07 - 02:05 PM (#2084972) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: McGrath of Harlow Surely the USA's greatest failure was to go along with slavery at the start. As Jefferson appreciated, when he declared in that context: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; (and) that His justice cannot sleep forever." |
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23 Jun 07 - 10:34 PM (#2085293) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Riginslinger "Surely the USA's greatest failure was to go along with slavery at the start." Maybe, but the USA has experienced other failures. Slavery was pretty much a fact of life by the time the USA become an entity, so it's ability to reject slavery at the start was very much limited. If the king had been able to divide the colonists over the issue of slavery at the outset, the result would surely have been very much different. |
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24 Jun 07 - 01:25 PM (#2085689) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: McGrath of Harlow Different, quite possibly. Better or worse? Interesting to speculate. If the price of "unity" at that time was a terrible civil war a few decades down the line, followed by a century of racist repression, was that too high a price? |
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24 Jun 07 - 09:48 PM (#2086024) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Riginslinger "...was that too high a price?" Hard to know. Things might have gone a lot like other British colonies, like South Africa for instance. |
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25 Jun 07 - 02:55 PM (#2086700) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Uncle Boko Remember that without slavoury and poverty a good proportion of English and USAian folk songs would not exist! |
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27 Jun 07 - 12:19 AM (#2087942) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Ron Davies It is indeed "hard to know". I don't like historical "what-if's"--find them pointless, by and large. But since the topic has been raised, it's not at all certain that if the colonies which became the US had instead stayed with the UK, a US civil war over the issue could have been avoided. It was not just moral outrage which caused the vote to ban the slave trade to--finally--be successful in the UK----after many failures. ( When Johnson made his remark about "the yelps for liberty" he was in fact in the minority in the UK.) But the economics changed. By 1807, the British West Indies finally had as many slaves as the plantation owners wanted--saturation had been reached. There was also the example of Haiti--as to what could happen with a huge numerical imbalance in favor of slaves--and the British and Americans both noted that. In the American South it was a different situation economically--saturation was not an issue----but there was a similar fear of slave revolt--and a corresponding determination to keep slaves "in their place"--and no incentive to change from a slave-based economy. It's not likely that the UK could have continued to refuse representation in Parliament to Americans. And the slave interests in the American South would therefore be represented in Parliament. Since many were quite wealthy, this would be reflected in their power--as it was in the case of the West Indies. Combined with the pro-slavery votes still in Parliament, it's likely the ban on the slave trade would have been delayed--or at least not well enforced--as it was not by the US til 1860. And slavery, supported by UK cotton interests, as indeed happened during the actual Civil War, would have continued. So the possible benefits envisioned by the hypothetical failure of the American war for independence might well not have occurred. Obviously, we'll never know. |
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27 Jun 07 - 10:43 AM (#2088235) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Riginslinger "But the economics changed. By 1807, the British West Indies finally had as many slaves as the plantation owners wanted--saturation had been reached. There was also the example of Haiti--as to what could happen with a huge numerical imbalance in favor of slaves--and the British and Americans both noted that." Ron - These are all good points, and economics change all the time. The same concepts could be used to address the problems of illegal aliens coming into the US now. Haiti is a good example of where we are all likely to end up if something isn't done to curb human migration. |
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27 Jun 07 - 12:17 PM (#2088307) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: kendall Bobert. Are you saying that the lawful head of the US government should have kow towed to the rebels? Did Jeff Davis ever offer to "sit down" with Lincoln? No, they just started shooting at union soldiers. Lincoln said that if he could preserve the union by freeing the slaves he would do it. He also said if he could save the union by NOT freeing the slaves at all, he would do it. The leaders of the south made a bad mistake. The leaders of the north made a bad mistake. The southerners didn't think Lincoln would be elected, and the northerns didn't think the south would leave the union if he was elected. In any case, the south started the shooting war. War. the ultimate failure. |
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27 Jun 07 - 12:37 PM (#2088325) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: KB in Iowa Lincoln would have talked with the southern leaders. The southerners would only agree to meet with Lincoln as official delegates of the sovereign nation The Confederate States of America. This was something Lincoln could not agree to. His position (and there were many who obviously agreed with him) was that the States had no right to leave the Union in the first place, let alone create another nation. Meeting with an official delegation would be tantamount to accepting that the southern states were no longer part of the Union. |
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28 Jun 07 - 06:55 AM (#2088913) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Ron Davies Rig-- In Haiti, the slaves overthrew their oppressors. Do you really think there's a parallel with the US now? Sounds to me as if your paranoia is getting the best of your judgment. As I've said, many whites in the South were afraid of blacks--(under slavery they had some reason for this--do you think slaves should be content?) But some whites still are afraid. We've also had dire predictions with Irish and Italian immigrants, and others. And who could forget that old favorite, the "yellow peril"? Somehow the terrible danger presented by recent immigrants to those who came before has always come to nothing. There's no reason to think it will be any different with the current wave of Hispanic immigrants. Let the rabid Republicans hang out the "Mexicans Go Home" sign. People who think should not be falling into line behind them. |
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28 Jun 07 - 08:29 AM (#2088980) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Riginslinger Ron - I don't think we will ever agree, but we ought to be able to communicate on this issue. It's not the fact that the immigrants are Hispanic, it's just the never ending number of them. |
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28 Jun 07 - 08:33 AM (#2088983) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: Bobert Well, Capt'n, if Lincoln was so interested in "freeing the slaves" why di he wait until 3 years into the war to do so??? And why did this executive order only free the slaves held in "Confederate" states, which BTW, at the time of this order wasn't part of the union??? Little known or remembered is that the border states of Kentucy, Missouri, West Virgina, Marland and Delaware, all union states, continued slavery after the so-call emaniciaption... The slavery issue has been way overplayed to sanitize our nation's greatest screw-up... This isn't history... This is mythology... "Honest Abe", my boney hillbilly butt... Just another liein' politican... But, hey, that's just my opinion... Bobert |
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28 Jun 07 - 09:30 AM (#2089030) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: kendall Then why DID the south secede? I always thought it was a direct result of the Kansas/Nebraska act. Lincoln signed the Emancipation proclamation after the battle of Antietam, and as you say, it applied only to the slaves that were under confederate control. He wanted to open a second front hoping the slaves would rise up and give Jeff Davis another problem to deal with. Lincoln was never the anti slavery zealot that the press made him out to be. His big thing was to preserve the union, and that's why the northern soldiers went to fight. I often wonder what would have happened if the south had won the battle of Antietam, and England had come into the war on the side of the south. |
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28 Jun 07 - 09:35 AM (#2089037) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: KB in Iowa Lincoln made it clear that his main goal was to preserve the Union. To quote kendall above "Lincoln said that if he could preserve the union by freeing the slaves he would do it. He also said if he could save the union by NOT freeing the slaves at all, he would do it." Lincoln believed that slavery was wrong. He also believed that the federal government did not have legal authority to end slavery where it already existed. When the time came that he thought it would help win the war and thus preserve the union he issued a proclamation to free the slaves in those parts of the country still in rebellion. Like you said, it didn't free any slaves anyplace where the federal govt was in a position to enforce it. It was a bold gamble, some thought that half the union army would lay down their arms and go home. I do not worship at the alter of Lincoln but I do have great respect for what he accomplished. He was president during the worst crisis this country has seen and got us through it. He bungled a great many things but prevailed in the end. I also think the crisis was unavoidable though I respect the opinion of those who feel otherwise. I don't see how playing up the slavery issue sanitizes anything. In my mind it makes it an even darker (apologies to Azizi) episode than if slavery were not involved at all. |
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28 Jun 07 - 01:14 PM (#2089236) Subject: RE: BS: How soon next American Civil War ? From: kendall He was/is the greatest republican of all. |