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02 Apr 05 - 10:18 PM (#1450575) Subject: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: dianavan "Influential Sunni clerics who once condemned Iraqi security-force members made an unexpected announcement yesterday, encouraging citizens to join the nascent police and army. If heeded, the announcement could strengthen the image of the officers and soldiers trying to take over the fight against the Sunni-led insurgency." Sorry, didn't mean to perjure but I forgot where I copied this from. Since it can be found anywhere, nobody should mind that I have failed to cite the source. I think the conclusion is comical. Sunni security forces fighting a Sunni insurgency? I doubt it. More like the Sunnis will control the country by force of arms. As soon as they swell the ranks of the security forces and the U.S. finally withdraws, it will be an easy step to gain control of Iraq. How can anyone be so dumb as to think that this is a step in the right direction? Then again, maybe this is what the U.S. wants. After all, it is highly unlikely that the U.S. can control a Shiite majority. It is far easier to corrupt the Sunnis. Hey, doesn't this put us right back to where Iraq was before Bush decided to force democracy down their throats? The only difference will be that it won't be Saddam. Eventually it will be another dictator with a different name. Thats the history of the Middle East and GWB would have been wise to do a little homework before he decided to risk so many lives. I hope there is a God and that he sends GWB straight to hell. |
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02 Apr 05 - 11:20 PM (#1450599) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Ebbie I was kind of with you, dianavan, until your last sentence. That kind of thinking is no better than that of any zealot in any cause. Btw, I expect you mean "plagiarize", not "perjure". |
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03 Apr 05 - 04:27 AM (#1450659) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: George Papavgeris Not sure that I agree with you, dianavan. If you have a minority (Sunnis) that harbours a number of insurgents (presumably a minority themselves within the Sunnis), it is common sense to recruit within their brethren for the fight against the insurgents. In the UK, partly to combat black-on-black crime (and partly to ingratiate themselves with the black and Asian communities), the police went on a campaign to recruit more non-Caucasian officers. Their campaign didn't bring as many of the "right" recruits as they hoped, but nobody thought that it was a bad idea to try. It's not that different from recruiting ex-hackers as IT computer security experts. They know best how to combat the specific crime they are targetted against. Also it's all part of the "hearts and minds" effort. And no matter what we think of GWB and the Iraq war, surely we all want the situation in Iraq to improve, for the sake of the Iraqis themselves first of all. I wouldn't condemn anyone to hell - that's God's job and he has had more practice at it than any of us. I'd happily slap GWB given a chance; but that doesn't mean that every thing he does is bad. We should beware of the baby-bathwater syndrome. I wish GWB wasn't in the post he occupies. But while he is there, I would be a traitor to my conscience if I didn't applaud his correct moves, even as I deplore the incorrect ones. |
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03 Apr 05 - 06:33 AM (#1450705) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Keith A of Hertford I saw the same report Dianavan, and saw good news. Are you so desparate for things to go wrong? The principal target for the insurgency attacks has been the security forces. This announcement just shows how little the insurgents represent ordinary Iraquis from either community. Can a minority take control of a nation's security forces simply by joining? All people who love their families desire an end to violence and a restoration of law and order. |
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03 Apr 05 - 01:17 PM (#1450891) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: dianavan Ebbie - I did mean plagarize. Keith A. - I am not desperate for things to go wrong. I just don't think that what works in Western civilization, will work in the middle east. When the Sunnis are legitimately armed, its a hop, skip and a jump to a major coup. Don't forget that Saddam was a Sunni. Maybe this is what Bush wants. To Western politicians, a Sunni in power is preferable to a Shiite. Its far easier to corrupt a secular govt. than a religious govt. I take it back about Bush going to hell. He makes his own hell on earth. He doesn't need to go anywhere. What has he done that is correct, El Greko? |
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03 Apr 05 - 01:35 PM (#1450906) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Ebbie And yet, dianavan, if the Sunni do not participate in their government there will be civil war. If a balancing act between the three facets - the Kurds, the Shiites and the Sunni - can be contrived there is at least a chance that the country can begin going forward. |
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03 Apr 05 - 02:55 PM (#1450955) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: DougR No source required dianavan. It was a story in the local newspaper. DougR |
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03 Apr 05 - 03:10 PM (#1450976) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: DougR And why shouldn't the Sunnis fight the insurgents dianavan? DougR |
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03 Apr 05 - 03:22 PM (#1450989) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: dianavan Doug R - The insurgents are dominated by Sunnis, or so we have been told previously. If they are so anxious to become involved with building a new Iraq, why not involve themselves in forming the new government instead of enlisting in the security forces? Seems an easy way to obtain arms and infiltrate the existing forces. All with the blessing of the world, it seems. |
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03 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM (#1451145) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Rapparee It's their country, as well as that of the Shiites and the Kurds. And I wouldn't think that all Sunnis march in lockstep to the commands of their leaders any more than all Catholics do everything the Pope says or all Canadians follow ever dictate from Ottawa. |
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03 Apr 05 - 07:16 PM (#1451192) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Ebbie Rapaire, are you sure? Are you serious that not all Canadians follow the dicta from Ottawa? I'm shocked. |
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03 Apr 05 - 08:26 PM (#1451249) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Peace " . . . or all Canadians follow ever dictate from Ottawa." We do, Rapaire. Ottawa tells us it's winter and guess what? We believe 'em. They tell us to dress warmly in 40 below and we do. Very compliant country is Canada. |
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03 Apr 05 - 09:05 PM (#1451280) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: dianavan Ottawa dictates? I thought they politely requested and everyone politely complied! Or is it the other way around? |
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03 Apr 05 - 09:07 PM (#1451281) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Peace Actually, we comply before they ask. Just means we don't have to listen to Ottawa. |
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03 Apr 05 - 09:23 PM (#1451291) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Rapparee It must make governance a whole heckuva lot easier, that there ex post facto governing. |
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03 Apr 05 - 09:31 PM (#1451301) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Little Hawk Most Canadians are so busy hating Toronto that they don't really have much energy left to bitch about Ottawa. :-) |
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03 Apr 05 - 09:34 PM (#1451305) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Peace Damn right, both of you. In fact, we aren't even sure that we actually HAVE a government. It has long been known in Canada that if every single (or married hehehehe) member of parliament and senate and cabinet were to pass away tomorrow, the bureaucrats would keep things going until the next election, even if that was five years away. As to Toronto--ah, wot's the use. |
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04 Apr 05 - 07:35 AM (#1451546) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Wolfgang Realism is Taking Hold in Washington (Interview with BRENT SCOWCROFT) I think I'll just post that link to this thread about Iraq. Interesting but not worth an extra thread. Wolfgang |
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04 Apr 05 - 08:16 AM (#1451568) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: George Papavgeris Dianavan, you ask "What has he done that is correct, El Greko?. I was referring to this move - the recruiting of Sunnis into the army. I believe this action to be correct. Alienating any minority - even one that has caused so much trouble in the past - is a surefire recipe for disaster; you just turn them into enemies and potential "insurgents". |
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04 Apr 05 - 08:34 AM (#1451579) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Bobert Think "Trojan Horse" here... And yeah, dianavan, I agree about Bish creting his own Hell right here on earth... But with that said, I'd be perfectly happy if the Iraqis could come together as one voice and tell Bush to send our troops home where they belong and don't bother leaviny any military bases on their soil and to expect to have to, ahhhh, pay for the their oil... Yeah, that works for me just fine, though it is an unlikely scenerio... Bobert |
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04 Apr 05 - 11:19 AM (#1451719) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: dianavan El Greko - I don't thin Bush is responsible for the recruitment of Sunnis. It was a directive from their religious leaders. |
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04 Apr 05 - 11:30 AM (#1451727) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Rapparee I think that right about now Bush will take whatever help he can get. |
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04 Apr 05 - 09:20 PM (#1452226) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Peace Ever hear the song, "Waist deep in the big muddy"? |
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04 Apr 05 - 09:39 PM (#1452235) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Bobert Yeah, it's on Bruce's (the other Bruce) "Lucky Town" CD... Great song and very appropriate when it comes down to why Bush got us in Iraq in the first place when Bruce sings, "Sooner or later, it all comes down to money...) Bobert |
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05 Apr 05 - 05:27 PM (#1453010) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Susu's Hubby The Bush bashing was expected whenever I clicked on this thread but what really surprises me is the acceptance of letting the creator of this topic get by with such blatant stereotypical racism towards the Sunni's. dianavan, aren't you being a bit untrue to yourself when you show this type of seething rage towards one particular group of people? Hubby |
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05 Apr 05 - 05:42 PM (#1453022) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Once Famous [bleep - for antisocial behavior]Nice to see dianavan ripped on a lot of things here. Makes me want to sing that old Carter Family song: Keep on the Sunni side Always on the Sunni side Keep on the Sunni side of life. It won't happen in a week But Democracy they seek If you keep on the Sunni side of life. |
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05 Apr 05 - 10:53 PM (#1453247) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: dianavan Susu's husband - Sunni is not a race. Besides that, I feel no rage toward them. I'm just saying that Bush doesn't know his Middle East politics very well. He may have his forces in Iraq at present, but when the Sunnis eventually control the security forces, there's not alot the Kurds or the Shiites will have to say about it. In the long run, the war in Iraq will look like an exercise in futility. Seems the people of Iraq have a choice between Facists and Theocrats. Democracy is a long way off and Bush has only made the situation worse. He had no business there in the first place. There is no silver bullet and he is not their saviour. |
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06 Apr 05 - 09:47 AM (#1453570) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Susu's Hubby I think it was a good move. To assume that "all" Sunni's are for the destruction of the new government is being a little presumptive in your ideological wishful thinking. It was a good move for nothing else and I think that we can all agree on this premise....keep your friends close but keep your (suppossed) enemies closer. Hubby |
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06 Apr 05 - 12:39 PM (#1453619) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: GUEST, Ebbie I don't follow the reasoning here, dianavan. The Sunni are a minority- why does it follow that if they were in the security force they would dominate it? |
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06 Apr 05 - 03:38 PM (#1453730) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: George Papavgeris Sorry Dianavan, I didn't know whose decision it was to recruit the Sunnis; I assumed from your initial post - perhaps mistakenly - , because you finished with the sentence about GWB that he was linked to that. If indeed he wasn't, I claim back the credit I gave him for the decision, and he's back to a zero balance in my book. |
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06 Apr 05 - 09:58 PM (#1454052) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Once Famous Then there was that popular song by bluegrass great Jimmy Martin "On the sunni side of the mountain." |
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06 Apr 05 - 10:38 PM (#1454070) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: dianavan Hubby: To assume that "all" Sunni's are for the destruction of the new government is being a little presumptive in your ideological wishful thinking. I never said that. Do not attempt to put words in my mouth. Sunnis are more secular than Shiites but they are still Iraqi Moslems. Yes, they are a minority in the country but if they swell the ranks of the security forces, they may well be the majority with guns. I just think its laughable that the U.S. overthrows a Shiite govt. and then arms a Shiite security force. Now that Iraq has a kurdish pres. and a Sunni and Shiite vice-pres, I am more hopeful for a balanced govt. We will have to wait to see what happens after the U.S. military leaves. |
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06 Apr 05 - 11:12 PM (#1454080) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Ebbie "I just think its laughable that the U.S. overthrows a Shiite govt. and then arms a Shiite security force." dianavan ?? |
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06 Apr 05 - 11:39 PM (#1454091) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: dianavan sorry - ...overthrows the Sunnis and then arms them. Big oops. |
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06 Apr 05 - 11:41 PM (#1454093) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: mg If the insurgents can be controlled, and terrorists quit blowing up the oil lines etc., think of the country that can emerge in Iraq. I am sure the Sunnis recognize this and were holding back for various reasons. It is their responsibility to help protect their country, and send messages to any insurgents who might come from their ranks...this could be one of the most prosperous, amazing countries on the face of the earth. Well, until we switch from oil to wind but even after they should be OK. They are, from what I have heard, educated, secular in orientation (not totally of course)...they seem to be doing very well except for security issues. I think we should be rejoicing, realizing things could still happen bad but less so every day. And there is a ripple effect..could be good ripples and could be bad ripples in other countries...but there is a huge tipping toward the good. mg |
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07 Apr 05 - 12:23 AM (#1454112) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: dianavan Yeah - Now all we have to do is figure out how to feed them. Which puts us back to where it all began. |
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07 Apr 05 - 12:48 AM (#1454119) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: mg No, we do not have to figure out how to feed them. We have to help them, and pull out as quickly as possible, with the security situation. When things are secure, and a modest amount of oil is flowing, they will feed themselves. First some of them will get a goat, then some chickens (the country ones..)...then the farmers who were so worried about getting their tomatoes to market during the war will sell their tomatoes...then the incredible number of engineers in that country will put together small irrigation projects. Roads will be fixed here and there. More and more people will have computers. If there is money, and there are roads, there will be food flowing every which way. The key is always security. Even if there were nothing but arid land, as long as no one was shooting the delivery persons, food could get to them. We are not the problem; we are the cure. mg |
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07 Apr 05 - 01:56 AM (#1454153) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: dianavan Mary - It has been a long time since the Iraqis have been able to feed themselves. I hope you are right. |
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07 Apr 05 - 12:06 PM (#1454471) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: mg If the security problem disappeared overnight, how long would it take? I am not saying exactly grow all their own food, although I have heard they could feed the mid-East..from what I have seen of their farms it looks more like gravel than farmland, but they manage to eke out a living even now...but things will happen so fast it will make our heads spin. And wait until Afghanistan is rebuilt..they used to have incredible gardens, orchards etc. there from what I read. mg |
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07 Apr 05 - 12:26 PM (#1454494) Subject: RE: BS: Sunnis urged to join Iraqi army From: Once Famous Anyone ever heard the song "Sunni" sung by Bobby Hebb? |