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26 Apr 05 - 11:39 AM (#1471265) Subject: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: dwditty About a week ago, I started a thread about the newly released Dave Van Ronk autobiography. Since DVR was about as influential as anyone, at least as far as the Greenwich Village folf scene goes, I thought mudcatters might be interested. The thread did have 3 responses over a few days before dropping off the list. No big deal, just the fact...although I was a bit surprised there was not more interest as it seemed somewhat "on-topic" for a site such as Mudcat. Well, yesterday, I decided to start a thread on a topic I considered inane - the Why Left Nut thread. In 18 hours over 30 responses and counting. Don't get me wrong....I am not complaining...I still like Mudcat fine. It does seem, though, it has ceased to be a music site. ANy thoughts? dw |
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26 Apr 05 - 11:42 AM (#1471269) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: GUEST,MMario Not a valid experiment. A music topic - versus a BS topic. BS has a much higher response rate because it is BS - and because people occupy themselves with the BS while they wait for music threads to which they can make a meaningful contribution come around. |
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26 Apr 05 - 11:46 AM (#1471278) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: wysiwyg Right. I'm down here screwing around while waiting for a document to open. It's a HUGE index I've built over the years, of Spirituals in Print. I'm about to do sonme maintenance work on it in prep for posting it-- in the Music Department. Yesterday and the day before, I screwed around similarly while doing extensive and minor edits on the Spirituals Permathread. Your thread was just the break I needed-- I even got PMs complimenting me on my post there! :~) If you are bored, please take a moment to check out the permathread. It now has almost 500 song titles, links to threads or DT songs, where a blues connection would be deeply welcome in their threads. Cruise the index-- it's all links to those threads. ~Susan |
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26 Apr 05 - 11:47 AM (#1471279) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Ebbie "Ceased to be a music site"? Compare the lengths of the lists above and below the line. |
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26 Apr 05 - 11:48 AM (#1471282) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: GUEST,MMario second point that invalidates your "experiment" - the post re: VanRonk is basically just an announcement with a link - though you titled the thread "review" you didn't do any reviewing. So most poeple probably just opened it up, clicked on the link and never bothered to post. |
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26 Apr 05 - 11:51 AM (#1471285) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Bunnahabhain And BS normally only requires an opinion, whilst most of the music threads you have to know a fair bit about the topic before you can make a useful contribution. For instance, the only musical instruments I have ever played are one note things- Brass or Woodwind. Add a lack of knowledge of music theory, and chords are a mystery to me. On the other hand, BS threads, such as 'today is a good day because..' draw on everyday life, or aspects of it which many more people share. Bunnhabhain |
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26 Apr 05 - 11:53 AM (#1471287) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Stilly River Sage I agree with MMario and others. You're comparing apples and oranges. I read the music threads, but I don't post unless I have something that will be useful, or a question that I need help with. Down below the line, the chat flows freely. SRS |
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26 Apr 05 - 11:54 AM (#1471289) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: CarolC Yes. I am completely unfamiliar with the music of Dave Van Ronk. I have no idea who he is. Why don't you start a thread about someone I care about? I like Taj Mahal a lot. And Mississippi Fred MacDowell. That would be an interesting start. P.S. I chose to ignore your "left nut" thread because it was already done a year or two ago, and that one was only interesting for the first couple of posts anyway. |
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26 Apr 05 - 12:00 PM (#1471296) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: George Papavgeris I can't say that I am surprised, dw. But I don't mean that in a bad way either. I have only been a member for 3 years or so myself, so I only know about the "glory days" of Mudcat second hand. But it strikes me that the Mudcat community has evolved over the years: From a web-based community, whose members mostly had not met each other, to a mixed group, many of whom have met each other (at Getaways, MudGatherings etc), several of whom have formed friendships and relationships and have even married. That puts a whole different context on Mudcat as a forum: Not simply a resource dedicated to music, but also a meeting place for friends, with frequent announcements of gigs for members, of CD launches, of reviews of events jointly attended etc etc. Where it once was like a "temple" dedicated to music, it is now more like a Community Centre that serves other social needs as well, for its members - the need to share a joke, to discuss a problem, to just be with each other (albeit in a virtual sense). I think the separation of BS from mainstream music threads is a good thing. But I don't begrudge the number of BS threads or the interest of some members in one section only. It simply mirrors us and our needs and characteristics as a community, and a particularly diverse one at that. Dave Van Ronk, for example, means little to me (no offense to anybody, the loss is mine) and so I opted out; I had little to add. At least I kept out of the Why Left Nut thread... pheww! |
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26 Apr 05 - 12:06 PM (#1471300) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Wolfgang And BS normally only requires an opinion, whilst most of the music threads you have to know a fair bit about the topic before you can make a useful contribution. (Bunnahabhain) Good observation. Wolfgang |
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26 Apr 05 - 12:09 PM (#1471304) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Clinton Hammond Seems to me all too many people say "I am completely unfamiliar with the music of..." and seem to be happy about their lack... Like the people who talk about not knowing how to use their PCs like that's a good thing... Seems typical for Mudcat |
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26 Apr 05 - 12:11 PM (#1471308) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: CarolC Are you familiar with the music of everyone in the world, Clintion, and do you care? To suppose that everyone is familiar with what you are familiar with is just arrogant. And to suppose that they should care is also arrogant. I play the accordion. Do you think everyone in the Mudcat is enthralled with all of the same artists on that instrument as I am? Of course not. Should I care? No. |
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26 Apr 05 - 12:15 PM (#1471311) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: dwditty One of my favorite rooms on Paltalk is called Accordians of the World. Wonderful people there and great music. |
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26 Apr 05 - 12:19 PM (#1471312) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: CarolC Thanks, dwditty. Got your PM. Response on the way. |
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26 Apr 05 - 12:20 PM (#1471315) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: George Papavgeris Wh wants to discuss Branduardi or Flairck with me? Or to stay in English language folk, the merits of New Gravel? We are too diverse a community for your argument to have any standing, CH. |
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26 Apr 05 - 12:23 PM (#1471318) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: GUEST,MMario hell Clinton - I can't keep up with the music I already know and like! |
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26 Apr 05 - 12:32 PM (#1471326) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Peace I post to music threads when 1) I have something new to contribute 2) I can help someone find stuff 3) I met Dave--and Terri--a few times and heard him sing in The Village and Montreal a few times, but nothing I know about him would have fit in that thread. 4) I have a left nut that is very dear to me--it and the right make a matched set. I do not contribute to every BS thread either. Just the ones I want. BM |
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26 Apr 05 - 12:41 PM (#1471338) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Clinton Hammond "Are you familiar with the music of everyone in the world, Clintion, and do you care?" Not yet... but I'm working on it... That's ONE of the things Mudcat IS good for... finding new music... some of it, I don't like and I dismiss... some of it I do like, and I keep... "I can't keep up with the music I already know and like" That's sad... " We are too diverse a community" No... we're too diverse and CLOSE-MINDED a community... most seem wrapped up in their own little world and show little if any desire to raise their eyes above their feet (I'm guilty of it too... especially when others go on and on about a festival that was WAY too far away for me to even care about... ) It's a world FULL of wonderful music... why listen to the same 20 CDs... the same 200 somgs your whole life? |
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26 Apr 05 - 12:55 PM (#1471350) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: George Papavgeris Some are close-minded, CH, but I wouldn't venture to suggest that they represent the majority. I change the 6 CDs in my autochanger every couple of weeks, circling through some 800. MoorleyMan has at least 3000 CDs and he's listened to almost all of them. It's also a case of opportunity. A friend who lives in Barcelona recently introduced me to Felpeyu (who? I hear you ask - though Aussies know them well, as they tour there). I fell in love with their mix of celtic and mediaeval European. Go buy their album "Ya!", and you will not be disappointed. I will agree with you on your last statement 100% though: "Were I to leave now, only one thing I will regret: not hearing those songs, that nobody has written yet..." |
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26 Apr 05 - 01:04 PM (#1471358) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Clinton Hammond "recently introduced me to Felpeyu... you will not be disappointed" I'll try anything once... But I'll also wager that the majority of people here won't even bother... Ta fer the heads up! :-) |
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26 Apr 05 - 01:57 PM (#1471424) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: John Hardly The music threads are hard work. It's true that the least friendly people on this site are those who do the "music only" thing here -- but it's probably not because they are unfriendly people, rather, they are here taking advantage of a different function of this site. Once answered, most music threads are done. Stick a fork in 'em... ...and that means, essentially, most music threads have died a-borning because I'll just betcha that a good 90% of all folk-related questions were answered in the first two years of this forum's life. Now all that is required to answer a question is a link to a previous thread. Of course I'm exaggerating a bit, but I think that is the dynamic. Music threads can be designed for more sharing, but in reality, that's a really tall order too. It's hard to communicate music without sound or without some ready-to-post means of communicating musical ideas (I used to get such a kick out of Rick Fielding's exceedingly patient descriptions - "take your index finger and put it on the third string, fourth fret and then...."). A couple of weeks ago I was kinda stumped on a really well-known swing chord progression -- one that has just all kinds of directions it could go. I figured that if I posted the first part of the progression here, I'd get a few guitarist's interested in putting their favorite endings to the progression. In retrospect: 1. many of the guitarists who used to participate in threads like that are either dead or long gone. 2. It takes TIME to post chords, 3. I gave the thread a do-or-die title -- I tried to entice by mystery rather than being straight-forward. I guessed that others might be like me and see chords and curiosity would make them pull out their guitars to see what it was and then they'd know exactly what the thread was about. I was wrong. C'est La Vie. But I've said it before and I'll say it again... ...on second thought, no I won't. |
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26 Apr 05 - 02:58 PM (#1471515) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: CarolC Broadening your musical experience is a good thing, Clinton. I like to do that myself. Criticizing people for not being familiar with the same people you are is another thing altogether. I don't feel guilty for not being familiar with everyone, and I have no problem with saying that I am not familiar with someone. And while I like to find new kinds of music to enjoy and appreciate, I will happily admit that there are many kinds of music I just don't like and I don't want to listen to. Fortunately for me, there is no shortage of music that I do like. And I can also, if I want, make music for myself that I thoroughly enjoy. |
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26 Apr 05 - 03:30 PM (#1471563) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: PoppaGator I read DW's Dave Van Ronk posting, but had nothing to contribute. I was disappointed that not too many others had much to say, either ~ I was keeping an eye out for interesting new stuff. (I opened the left-nut thread, read one or two contributions that I found only mildly amusing at best, and abandoned it.) I used to scorn and avoid the BS section entirely, but as my Mudcat addiction has developed, I'll wander down the page whenever there aren't enough new music postings to keep me interested and involved "up there." CarolC, if you like Fred MacDowell, and especially if you like Taj Mahal, you owe it to yourself to check out DVR. Dave was a hugely important figure in the folk/blues revival, researching and preserving all kinds of folklore including (especially) the legacy of the blues, and was also a great singer and player. And, oh yeah, a notable guitar teacher, too, and a great infuence of many more recent and more famous artists. If there were no Dave Van Ronk, there may or may not ever have been a Taj Mahal, one of many modern folk/blues artists to have come along since that first "revival" era. Taj was/is a college-educated, self-conscious artist who learned his traditional music from books and recordings, just like you and me, and Dave was as important a factor in the emergence of those books and records as any single individual. Taj was certainly influenced by both Fred McDowell and Dave Van Ronk, but he surely has much more in common with Dave musically, and Dave's influence upon him was much more immedidate. |
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26 Apr 05 - 03:38 PM (#1471576) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Clinton Hammond "Criticizing people for not being familiar with... is another thing" Who was doing that? |
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26 Apr 05 - 03:51 PM (#1471584) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: CarolC Thanks PoppaGator. Someone has kindly offered to introduce me to some of DVR's music, so I guess I'll be finding out what he's all about at some point in the future. Taj was/is a college-educated, self-conscious artist who learned his traditional music from books and recordings, just like you and me This is a very interesting statement, and one that I don't quite know how to respond to. I never learned anything about any kinds of music in college, and most of the music I play these days, I got online (JC's Tunefinder, mostly - Finland search, and from sheet music and self-recorded tapes sent to me by another Mudcatter who plays accordion). The traditional music I was playing prior to taking up accordion was mostly music I learned by ear at jam sessions (along with some sheet music given to me at those sessions). |
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26 Apr 05 - 03:56 PM (#1471592) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Once Famous I have pointed out before that much of the music threads are British in nature. I do find some music threads that are American music based in nature, but they are a minority as a Dave Van ronk thread would be. There are two separate folk music worlds here, overall. |
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26 Apr 05 - 04:00 PM (#1471597) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Clinton Hammond Ya... 'Hull', and everybody else... :-P |
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26 Apr 05 - 04:20 PM (#1471615) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: PoppaGator CarolC: I never took a college class in music, but like many folks in my general age group, I learned songs, and learned to play, in the context of an educated and technologically-advanced society, i.e., by having access to recordings and songbooks, etc., and by jamming with peers who enjoyed the same access and the same surfeit of leisure time. Many of us had the same experience whether we were college students or college dropouts; I never meant to refer to any classroom experience, only to our very modern and somewhat privileged existence. My point was that Taj Mahal, Dave Van Ronk and I, and presumably you as well, enjoyed an entirely different lifestyle and a different kind of exposure to music than someone like Fred MacDowell. Fred was a wonderful musician, of course, and quite a guy too, for that matter ~ I don't mean to denigrate anything about him. But the musical horizons and experience available to an illiterate sharecropper in Como, MS, were pretty narrow when Fred was a young man; of course, that was probably a contributing factor to how DEEP into that groove he could get... There are many places you could start exploring Dave Van Ronk, but one you might consider would be the recently-released live recording of his final concert. I've been meaning to buy a copy and haven't done so yet; the information is referenced somewhere in some Mudcat thread, and I assume it can be found out on the web by a Google search. Maybe someone will post info on this CD (or anything else they might recommend) here. |
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26 Apr 05 - 04:45 PM (#1471645) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Once Famous Hull as in Dull. |
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26 Apr 05 - 04:51 PM (#1471653) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: dwditty As a matter of fact, Taj attended the Univ of Massachusetts - I only know because I took a music course as an elective one year, and the professor had had Taj in class a couple of years prior. I am guessing he did not graduate though. So PoppaG is right on the money. I have mentioned before, but for a really close look at country blues as reported by one of the creators, see The World Don't Owe Me Nothin' - Honeyboy Edwards' autobiography. Van Ronk has a long discography, yet there is still not enough. The CD of his last concert - The Song Ended and the Tin Pan Bended - is a wonderful example of a DVR show. I also understand that he had learned of his cancer just before this show, but that fact surely does not show up in the recording. Another wonderful document is his show (DVD) at the Bottom Line from June 2001 (Dave died in Feb 2002). This is also a good look at just how Dave played, and I have stolen much! As far as being a teacher, Van Ronk taught a good friend of mine for several years. My friend made the weekly trips into NYC as much for the hour or so of Dave's company as for the lessons. He also became a great blues guitar player in the process. Years ago I purchased an audio cassette course (that is now available on CD from Stefan Grossman's Guitar Workshop) in which DVR takes the student through a note by note, fret by fret, string by string lesson for a bunch of songs. Such patience. |
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26 Apr 05 - 04:52 PM (#1471656) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: George Papavgeris Hull is a world unto itself, it deserves its own prefix - say, "hUll" or "h9ll" or something. |
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26 Apr 05 - 05:01 PM (#1471663) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: CarolC Interesting post, PoppaGator. I think maybe I am a bit of a hybrid when it comes to your categories though. I was inspired to learn to play accordion by someone from Belgium who showed up at one of the jam sessions I was attending. He played in a continental European style, and I was smitten. I'll bet there were many experiences very similar to mine back in the 1800s and early 1900s, for instance, when immigrants to various countries in North and South America (or captive peoples brought to those places) shared the music of their home countries and their people with the other peoples they encountered in their new homes. And I'll bet that this sort of cross-pollenation of cultures is a big part of what gave rise to some of the traditional musical genres in countries in North America and South America, like the blues, for instance. |
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26 Apr 05 - 05:06 PM (#1471671) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: CarolC We crossposted, dwditty. Your post is interesting, too. |
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27 Apr 05 - 03:32 PM (#1472636) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: dick greenhaus Aw, c'mon fellers. The Mudcat Cafe is an experiment that's been running fairly successfully for quite a few years now. By now, I feel safe in saying that it works. |
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27 Apr 05 - 04:17 PM (#1472667) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Leadfingers Dave Van ronk was a 'big' name on the UK BLUES scene rather than the folk scene and not of any interest to ME as I was only just getting into actually playing ! I looked at the thread , thought 'YES- Fine bluesy man' and moved on to other things ! Clinton - I wish I could afford to buy ALL the music I would like to listen to , and that there were enough hours in the day to listen to it , as well as rehearsing , practising , and Gigging ! |
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27 Apr 05 - 04:32 PM (#1472685) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: dwditty Yes indeed, Dick. "Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: dick greenhaus - PM Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:32 PM Aw, c'mon fellers. The Mudcat Cafe is an experiment that's been running fairly successfully for quite a few years now. By now, I feel safe in saying that it works." As a result of all this, I have made a new friend and been given the opportunity to share some music. Yes, Mudcat works! |
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27 Apr 05 - 05:08 PM (#1472732) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Amos No question. It has it's glory-moments, and it has it's infernal ones, but by and large it continues to work. A |
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27 Apr 05 - 05:25 PM (#1472743) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Experiment Works From: Bunnahabhain Income tax is also, technically, an experimental measure still. Someone introduced it to fight Napolean. I'm sure he's a pressing threat still... I think I prefer Mudcat |