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30 Apr 05 - 10:41 AM (#1474973) Subject: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,mukeychris Hi guys, I'm writing about Ewan MacColl's songwriting techniques, specifically with regard to the tradition in my dissertation, but have been searching in vain for a quote as to why he chose to do this: i.e. he wanted folk song to be an evolving tradition, it was left-wing propaganda etc. Can anyone point me towards an online source? Or tell me yourself and I'll quote you as folk experts?! Much appreciated, Chris ------------------- Ewan MacColl might get played on Cool as Folk! www.coolasfolk.co.uk |
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30 Apr 05 - 11:15 AM (#1474984) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Ewan me & a dog named boo "Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs?" yeah.. and why isn't he writing any new ones ? |
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30 Apr 05 - 11:30 AM (#1474995) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST Why don't you just ask Peggy Seeger? You can reach her via her agent, Josh Dunson. His email is |
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30 Apr 05 - 11:31 AM (#1474996) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST Josh's e-mail: Rpmjosh@aol.com |
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30 Apr 05 - 11:33 AM (#1474998) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: nutty The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook published by Peggy Seeger contains Ewans songs with some explanation of his life and what inspired him to write them. The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook Sixty years of Songmaking Published by Oak Publications Order No. OK 64986 US IBSN 0.8256.0321.8 UK ISBN 0.7119.6292.8 |
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30 Apr 05 - 12:47 PM (#1475041) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: MurkeyChris Cheers guys, Do you know if notes from the songbook are online? I'm in rather a rush to get it done! Chris |
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30 Apr 05 - 01:20 PM (#1475061) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: nutty You could try Peggy Seegers website www.pegseeger.com |
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30 Apr 05 - 05:39 PM (#1475240) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Tannywheeler Ewan me & a dog named boo -- just in case the last question in your post was a serious question -- Ewan M. is deceased. It seems to me he wrote because he had something to say (and said it well). Tw |
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30 Apr 05 - 06:10 PM (#1475261) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Malcolm Douglas Rush or not, dissertations require proper research, and that means libraries. Presumably you've read MacColl's autobiography? |
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30 Apr 05 - 06:59 PM (#1475301) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: greg stephens Library? Oooooh, you're such an old fogey Malcolm. You'll be telling us you look things up in books next. |
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30 Apr 05 - 07:02 PM (#1475305) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: ElwynnMaxon Did he write new songs be cause he found it impossible to write an old one? E.M. |
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30 Apr 05 - 09:55 PM (#1475385) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Susan of DT (dick greenhaus here) Probably because of the same reason that led him to breathe. |
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30 Apr 05 - 10:44 PM (#1475414) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Francy Every song written is in fact a new song and time takes care its' ability to be old.......You must be talking about subject matter...Ewan MacColl was one of the finest writers of social songs and issues of vital importance during his lifetime.........Frank of Toledo |
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01 May 05 - 04:50 AM (#1475529) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Bob Bolton G'day MurkeyChris, In 1932 the Manchester walkers wanted the right to walk in their countryside ... and Ewan wrote Manchester Rambler as part of the protest - and now it's the theme song of those walkers (social activism?). In 1949 he needed to cover an awkward set change ... and Ewan wrote Dirty Old Town - and now it's a song claimed by towns all over the British Isles ... and beyond (theatrical needs?). In 1957 he was wooing this Yankee lass ... and Ewan wrote The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face by way of a long-distance telephone call to Peggy Seeger - and it (much) later, became a successful "pop" song (the needs of life?). For the Radio Ballads he wrote songs formed from the words of the people the Ballads told us about ... and many have become almost the anthems of just those people (social reportage - but much more?). Every folk song, ancient or modern, was written by someone ... why would you question the right of anyone to keep up the tradition? Regards, Bob Bolton |
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01 May 05 - 07:02 AM (#1475562) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: MurkeyChris Hi all, Thanks for the help. Just to clarify, I think my title might have been a bit misleading. I was really looking for a quote, preferably from the horse's mouth, that explained MacColl's decision to compose songs in the folk vernacular as opposed to doing what most other people were doing and just singing 'traditional' songs. Cheers, Chris |
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01 May 05 - 07:31 AM (#1475574) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Hootenanny We all have to do something to earn a crust and keep the wolf from the door. Living the fantasy life as a Scot with a false name and singing traditional bothy ballads in a phoney accent didn't bring in much, but Jimmy found success as a song writer and I guess that is a good enough reason. Hoot |
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02 May 05 - 03:20 AM (#1476275) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Les in Chorlton MacColl was first an actor and did what many actors do, adopt a stage name. As for the phoney accent, he learned songs from his mother, who was scots, and he probably sang them as she did. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong. Singing songs that come from other places is always difficult because the rhymes don't always work if you sing them in your own dialect. MacCall used a number of voices, on 'To the begging I will go', collected from Beckett (?) Whitehead in Lancashire, he uses a Lancashire accent and it does sound odd after the strong scots accent but he was very early in the field of revival folk singers. MacColl had a number of faults but singing and songwriting were not amongst them. |
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02 May 05 - 04:55 AM (#1476301) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Dave Hanson I'll give you a quote Chris, from Ewans autobiography, Journeyman, " I never considered myself a composer, I just made up some somgs. " eric |
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02 May 05 - 05:10 AM (#1476304) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Bernard You may find this useful... |
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02 May 05 - 09:33 AM (#1476397) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: MurkeyChris Oh another quick question: did Ewan MacColl actively collect folk songs or just learn them from books? Cheers, Chris |
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02 May 05 - 09:39 AM (#1476399) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Dave Hanson He collected, he did a series for the BBC called Song Collector, in which he travelled round collecting songs. eric |
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02 May 05 - 09:46 AM (#1476403) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: MurkeyChris Thanks Eric and everyone, One last question (possibly) - anyone know if 'The First Time' is available on CD sung by Ewan? I know it's from New Britton Gazette 2 with Peggy Seeger but I think that's out of print, and can't find anything on Amazon with it on. Cheers, Chris |
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02 May 05 - 10:02 AM (#1476410) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Cockney The man was a wanker who pretended to be scotch, stole songs from tinkers and seamen and pretended they were his. Why bother writing about such talentless scum. Why not do something worthwile and study a true genius - Bob Dylan. |
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02 May 05 - 10:22 AM (#1476417) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: MurkeyChris Ha ha, I might quote you on that! |
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02 May 05 - 12:54 PM (#1476542) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Big Al Whittle From my own experience I can tell you Ewan and Peggy had a profound respect for the creative process. Not only did they compose songs themselves, they used to encourage others to do so. They used to run a magazine called New City Songster that songwriters who weren't likely to be picked up by the mainstream music industry could send their songs to. I was very proud when they put one of my songs in their magazine - it was in the same issue as The Band Played Waltzing Matilda by Eric Bogle. Both Peggy and Ewan were ethnologists by instinct, but first and foremost Ewan was, and Peggy still is, great creative artists both. The tradition was, from their point of view, a great creative opportunity, and I think many of the artists who followed in his footsteps, like Martin Carthy probably still see it as such. Ewan was also a playwright of great consequence. His works were performed with great frequency during his lifetime behind the Iron Curtain. Another person who knows lots about Peggy and Ewan and will give you great insights is Ian Campbell, who took part in the Radio Ballads project - and afterwards formed a very successful Birmingham based folk group. Best of luck with your studies, I really cannot imagine what it must be like to be studying Ewan. he was a very great man (we all knew that at the time), but I never really thought of him as a subject for university students to study - he was too much fun - he wore his great achievements and knowledge VERY light heartedly. all the best big Al Whittle |
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02 May 05 - 01:58 PM (#1476605) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Les in Chorlton 'The man was a wanker who pretended to be scotch, stole songs from tinkers and seamen and pretended they were his. Why bother writing about such talentless scum.' Is this called trolling? It is certainly untrue. 'Why not do something worthwile and study a true genius - Bob Dylan.' Intersting point. Dylan is a true genius. He did most of the things MacColl is accused of above. He changed his name, was at least confusing about his origins and he based some of his songs on traditional songs and in some cases other peoples songs |
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02 May 05 - 03:42 PM (#1476683) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Uncle_DaveO The troll has some factual background for the things he says (all the best lies are that way), but the end charges he comes out with are still departures from the essential truths of McColl's life. "Wanker" and "scum", of course, are mere pejorative namecalling, and reflect at most the troll's attitude (if indeed they are even reflective of his own thoughts and not merely trollisms). And even if the troll's substantive charges against McColl were both true and unique to him, it would be a FAR stretch to call him "talentless"! Wow! Talk about untruths! Dave Oesterreich |
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02 May 05 - 04:09 PM (#1476710) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Dave Sutherland Big Al, in his usual eloquent manner, sums up most of the things that I was about to say re Ewan MacColl that is conducive to this thread. In mentioning "The New City Songster" there is a quote from the January 1972 edition which might be what Murkey is looking for:-"How is it possible that so many old songs not only lasted over centuries of social chaos and geographical transplantation, but still fascinate the most creative and receptive elements of our urban society, the young people? In answering such questions and analysing folksong styles, language and melodies we can find logical criteria for creating new songs which, we hope will ALSO last." I consider MacColl and Dylan both to be writers of equal genius and my only regret about MacColl was that he chose so often to dismiss Dylan's work. A similar regret is that the likes of Hootenanny and Cockney seem only to exist in order to deter people posting interesting queries such as this one. |
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03 May 05 - 05:11 AM (#1476852) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST Murkey Chris, Ewan never sang The First Time Ever, he wrote it for Peggy, incidently, over the telephone in 7 minutes. As the troll guest calls himself ' cockney ' he ought to have called himself ' tory banker ' eric |
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03 May 05 - 08:05 AM (#1476896) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: pavane I understand there is a possibly that some songs which Ewan MacColl 'collected' were in fact written by him. This does give a false view of the tradition, and previous collectors who did this are now regarded as forgers, I believe. (PS why can trolls never spell? Or are they too keen to send, and just mistype words) |
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03 May 05 - 08:20 AM (#1476914) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Greg F. Be sure to your to explain to your profs., Murkey, how other people researched and wrote your dissertation for you. I'm sure they'll be impressed- I know I am. |
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03 May 05 - 08:24 AM (#1476916) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Bee (PS why can trolls never spell? Or are they too keen to send, and just mistype words) I think you'll find that Mudcat members are no better or worse at spelling than those you attack. BTW, you might want to take a lesson or two in punctuation and grammer. You question should have read as follows: (P.S. Why is it that trolls never spell correctly? Are they just too keen to send and just mistype their words?) |
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03 May 05 - 09:15 AM (#1476938) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: MurkeyChris Thanks for the help everyone, especially Dave S, that's perfect! I should point out that the dissertations on contmeporary songs in the traditional idiom and only touches on Ewan alongsdie a lot of other people. Onto Fairport's 'Crazy Man Michael' now. Cheers, Chris |
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03 May 05 - 09:29 AM (#1476949) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: MurkeyChris Hmm sorry about the spelling above! Chris |
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03 May 05 - 09:29 AM (#1476950) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: The Borchester Echo Ewan never sang The First Time Ever He did, but rarely. Once at the Singers Club he just lauched into it without a word of explanation. The next time I heard it was some years later on the soundtrack of Play Misty For Me. |
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03 May 05 - 11:36 AM (#1477077) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Lighter at work Were there really any songs that MacColl wrote himself but tried to pass off as "traditional"? I thought quite the oppposite, that a few of the songs he acknowledged writing from the start were later thought to be "traditional" by others. "Shoals of Herring" is the prime example. It was quite openly based on quotations from fisherman Sam Larner, but MacColl made a song of them with additional material and a tune I believe he composed. MacColl often collated texts or otherwise slightly altered them, always with great respect for the originals and always, I think, with an indication of what he'd done. "The wild and wasteful ocean" line, however, is Shakespeare's. |
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03 May 05 - 01:25 PM (#1477172) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: shepherdlass GregF - there's no need to be so grudging. If you want to research something but have no idea where to start, why not ask people who may have a bit more experience than you? Anyway, I'm with DaveS on this one - MacColl wrote lots of truly great songs and he wrote some poor ones. Ditto Dylan. Here we come to the processes of tradition again - it tends to be the good ones that get picked up and reworked again and again, and both MacColl and Dylan are responsible for a large number of these. MurkeyChris - I'm wondering if you are querying why the self-appointed arbiter of things traditional chose to write new songs? That's an interesting debate. MacColl is so fascinating because of this - you can love the songs and the radio ballads but dislike his prescriptive approach to authenticity. The contradictions in his various approaches might make a dissertation in itself. There's an online resource called the Working Class Movement Library that has loads of info on MacColl. And to reiterate previous comments – you should definitely get hold of MacColl's autobiography, "Journeyman" if you haven't already done so - one trip to the library could save you loads of time online. |
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03 May 05 - 02:41 PM (#1477215) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Hootenanny To Dave S. Sorry if you don't agree with me but if you could make more money from writing and copyrighting your own songs than by singing and recording traditional non copyright material would you not do so? Joe Public in general I'm sure knows or has heard "The First Time Ever", but ask him/her about any of the bothy ballads or "The Day We Went To Rothesay-O" which Ewan used to sing regularly over the period of about three years during the late 50's early 60's when I used to see him virtually every Saturday night and you will get a blank look. Personally I found him a man very difficult to warm to. Yes he did encourage younger performers but he also discouraged some. However he did some very good work and wrote some very good songs AND they made him money - lots of money in one case. Good for him. I didn't post to deter other people from discussing the question. I posted giving what I believe to be a good enough reason for writing: financial reward. I suppose I should have realised that he only did it for the sake of art and to further the cause for us left leaning folk. As I said above we all have to earn a crust one way or another. Someone above mentions Ewan's plays being performed behind the iron curtain. Well I'm sure that made him rich too!!! Hoot |
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04 May 05 - 03:05 AM (#1477612) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: pavane Guest bee: Grammer? Surely GRAMMAR |
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04 May 05 - 04:48 AM (#1477657) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Dave Hanson Hootenanny, you should read Ewans autobiography ' Journeyman ' until Roberta Flack had a top ten hit with ' First Time Ever ' Ewan never had two pennies to rub together . eric |
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04 May 05 - 05:27 AM (#1477667) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Hootenanny So Eric, what you are saying is that Ewan made money from writing songs, isn't that what I said? Hoot |
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04 May 05 - 08:29 AM (#1477774) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Dave Hanson No, only one. eric |
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05 May 05 - 03:06 AM (#1478566) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Keith A of Hertford Er, because he could. |
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05 May 05 - 04:11 AM (#1478581) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Meerkat If MurkeyChris simply started a new thread using the full title of his dissertation I suspect that Mudcatters would collectively write it for him, saving him from ever having to visit a library! |
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05 May 05 - 04:21 PM (#1478916) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Hootenanny Eric, You seem to be implying that the BBC didn't pay him for his writing for the Radio Ballads, or for repeats of the broadcasts, or that Topic Records didn't earn him any royalties for his written work. I would agree that "First Time" was almost certainly his biggest earner but it wasn't the only one that brought in any money. Not "having two halfpennies to rub together" was/is not unusual for many of us and often depends on the life style which we chose. I can sympathise with that. Hoot |
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05 May 05 - 04:25 PM (#1478919) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Allen Personally, I don't think it was for money. He was a talented, opinionated individual who always had something to say, and said it. Don't think in the seven minutes over the phone, he thought wow, I'm going to be rich. A Scotsman on the make is proverbial, but let's not get carried away here. Anyway, listen to the Moving On Song and tell me THAT was written for money. |
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06 May 05 - 04:20 AM (#1479215) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Dave Hanson Hootenanny, if you know anything about Ewan you would know that thereis a great body of his that will NEVER get played on the BBC because it is very political and quite a lot of it is controversial, most of it never recorded, are you trying to tell me he did this for money ? eric |
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06 May 05 - 05:14 AM (#1479232) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Hootenanny If Ewan MacColl didn't write whether it be plays, songs or radio programmes in order to earn a living then it is no surprise that at one stage in his life he wasn't too wealthy. I had the pleasure of working with many people from inside and outside the far left who were idealists and did work to further the cause but I met none who did not expect to be paid at the end of an evening's work, and I can't think of any that didn't copyright their own material or fail to add 'arranged by' when they performed material in the public domain. It isn't a crime or a sin to get paid for what you do well. Hoot |
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06 May 05 - 05:17 AM (#1479233) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Allen Yes, but getting paid for something isn't the same as doing it for the money. |
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06 May 05 - 05:31 AM (#1479241) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Betsy Cos the old ones had all been written already |
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06 May 05 - 02:04 PM (#1479519) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Dave Sutherland Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger always charged more than other folk singers around the folk clubs during their performing years and in return they always gave full value for money. In one of the coversations with MacColl when I was present he defended their fee by saying that he was a union man and therefore he worked for the best union rates - something I'm sure we all strive to do. I certainly never complined about paying to hear MacColl and Seeger(I paid twenty odd quid for my wife and I to see Peggy last October)or paying him his fee at the end of a night. But songwriting for money? I don't think that he wrote "Fields of Vietnam", "China Rag" or "Brother Did You Weep?" with one eye on the dollar. |
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06 May 05 - 02:35 PM (#1479543) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Hootenanny "Yes but getting paid for something isn't the same as doing it for money" Pardon ? I'm sorry but you will need to explain that for me. |
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06 May 05 - 02:59 PM (#1479553) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Allen Let's see if I can explain this. I'm writing a novel. I would be delighted if it were published, I'd get paid of course, but that's not why I'm writing it. It's because I feel I have a story to tell. |
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06 May 05 - 03:03 PM (#1479559) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Kim C People who write songs do it for the same reason they have to pee - i.e., there's something in there that has to come out. |
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06 May 05 - 10:17 PM (#1479786) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Tannywheeler Amen, Kim C. Absopositiv-eye-lootly. Hit THAT nail square on its head. Tw |
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06 May 05 - 11:24 PM (#1479826) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: Sorcha Because he wanted or needed too? |
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07 May 05 - 09:18 AM (#1479986) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Hootenanny Alan If you write a book because you have a story to tell and it gets published then you are doing it for money. If you write a book not wanting monetary reward and not expecting to get it published then the story will not get told. This means I guess that you are doing it for self satisfaction. Now isn't that what a certain cockney above suggested with regard to MacColl? - not that I agree with him I might add. Hoot |
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07 May 05 - 11:08 AM (#1480030) Subject: RE: Why did Ewan MacColl write new songs? From: GUEST,Allen The story gets told by getting out there on paper. If I get paid- marvellous, I won't complain. It's not the motive though. |