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01 May 05 - 10:40 AM (#1475677) Subject: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: akenaton The truth about the Blair Govts' conduct prior to the start of the Iraq war continues to drip out. It now seems clear that the decision for war was taken as early as the beginning of 2002, when Mr Blair met George Bush and decided to carve out a place in history for himself on Americas' coat tails. This also served Bushes purposes, as it meant at least one other member of the coalition. Given the position of Labour in the latest opinion polls, it would seem that the UK electorate do not fully realise the implication of these leaks. We are in fact led by a group of people who manipulated facts and information to take the UK into an illegal and unnesessary war of agression, leading to the deaths and mutilation of thousands of innocent men women and children. Either the UK electorate are extremely stupid, or they just dont care. On the Frost programme this morning, Blairs excuses had shrunk to a simple, " Saddam was a tyrant,he had to be removed, I decided to remove him. Would you rather see Saddam still in power?" Actually Mr Blair was wrong. There was an alternative for the UK. The USA had declared that they would remove Saddam unilaterally,so Blair could have taken the course of Harold Wilson, who refused to commit troops to the Vietnam war, although under extreme pressure to do so. Instead Blair decided to "go for glory" in what was perceived to be an easy war, and in doing so made us all complicite in the murder and mutilation. I find this issue more important than any domestic or economic one, and I find it inconceivable that some on these pages can overlook the crime that has been committed in our name. Have we as a nation, fallen so low, that any conduct is acceptable as long as we appear to be better off materially. Any who mark the box of liars cheats and murderers,should hang their heads in shame.......Ake |
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01 May 05 - 11:20 AM (#1475694) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: robomatic I think this presents Prime Minister Blair in anything but a subservient role, as he has been cast by detractors in his own nation. Rather than wait for events to rule him, he got his ducks in a row in advance of the matter. He has proven himself downright eloquent , especially in contrast to the President. I think he is intelligent, resolute, and courageous. You are lucky to have him. |
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01 May 05 - 11:55 AM (#1475724) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Robo, We'd be happy to give him to you, if you like him so much. The only difference between an inarticulate liar, and an eloquent and erudite on, is that the latter is infinitely more dangerous. Ask yourself this. Who is next on their list of victims? If you still want him, take him with our compliments. I'm with Akenaton on this subject. Don T. |
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01 May 05 - 11:58 AM (#1475728) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: kendall "Time wounds all heels." |
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01 May 05 - 12:00 PM (#1475731) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: robomatic Don: How's his Korean? Robo |
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01 May 05 - 12:14 PM (#1475749) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Lousy, I hope, as I'm not too keen on mushroom clouds. Don T. |
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01 May 05 - 12:19 PM (#1475758) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: DMcG Either the UK electorate are extremely stupid, or they just dont care. If only it was that simple ... |
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01 May 05 - 01:30 PM (#1475814) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: heric I don't know the British political issues to assess or form an opinion on any of them, but I have been rather impressed by the rancourous opposition to Blair as an indication that the electorate can largely discriminate between substantive issues and mere personality. For to say that Blair is "articulate" is an understatement in the extreme. His combination of charm, eloquence and debating skill is unmatched by any public figure in my memory. I never miss a chance to watch him perform, always with total fascination. If he is deceitful, I would understand the fury of the opposition, but I would be even more impressed by his skill. |
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01 May 05 - 01:35 PM (#1475817) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: Peace The US doesn't have the legs to take on Korea without the use of nukes. |
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01 May 05 - 01:50 PM (#1475833) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: robomatic heric: I agree brucie: I don't think we'll need either nuclear or substantial conventional US armed forces to deal with N. Korea. |
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01 May 05 - 01:53 PM (#1475835) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: gnu And the Koreans won't back down... I hope the US leaves them alone. Ya know, I watched Fahrenheit 9/11 a couple of nights ago and it completely changed my view of the US and Britain's approach to the Middle East. I am ashamed at some of the things I said and thought about Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan,... |
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02 May 05 - 01:38 AM (#1476233) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: GUEST,Jade G It was sensible and competent to analyse the other options, including war, at the same time as going for yet another UN resolution. |
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02 May 05 - 01:40 AM (#1476234) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: Boab Akenaton---I am no longer resident in the UK, though still hold membership of the Scottish National Party. As I see the UK election. it is to be hoped that genuine Labour voters hold their noses against the Blair stink and VOTE. Any faint chance of a Tory administration fills me with dread.My kids still live over there, and in England mostly. |
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02 May 05 - 03:07 PM (#1476656) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: akenaton Boab...I understand your concern over the return of a Conservative administration....I think you and I are not that far apart politically. However the crime committed not just by Blair, but by Straw, Hoon, and others in the cabinet,means that regardless of the outcome of the election,every soul who cares for truth, goodness and protection of the innocents must withold their vote from people whom I would describe as evil. In my opinion, the act of going to war was a cynical attempt by Blair to cover himself in glory, much as Thatcher did in the Falklands war. The difference lies in the fact that Blair and his accomplices lied to the British people and the UK parliament to achieve their aims. Blair should be asked to answer for this crime, not only in the election, but in a court of law. As I have said before, I am still haunted by the sight of blind and limbless children, some only 4 or 5 years old, lying in an Iraqi hospital, their injuries caused by coalision air strikes. All for the glory of a gang of thugs. How could any decent person endorse such creatures?? My advise is dont vote. Instead, join a protest group,whatever your interests may be. Show the bastards that some of us still have a conscience....Ake |
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03 May 05 - 03:49 AM (#1476840) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: Boab Ake, I am with you all the way in your sentiments. But I think , in this election, tactic should be--get out and vote, in spite of your detestation of Tony Blair. I believe that so many marginals will go to the other parties that the Labour Party will be at last brought to its senses, and be rid of the Blairite scourge. That would be the ideal outcome. What makes the prospect of a Tory victory so horrifying isn't just the fact that Howard is as bad or even worse than Blair, but that EVERY Tory m.p. would enthusiastically back every warmongering flagwaving idiot on the face of this poor old Earth. Let's have a final end to Thatcherism. D'ye think that if Britain had been under a real Labour Prime Minister, she'd have been so contentedly quiet in her retirement? |
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03 May 05 - 03:56 AM (#1476843) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: Liz the Squeak As I posted in another thread today... Another British soldier was killed at the weekend; he was married, father of 3. Tony Blair sent his "profuse apologies"... wonder how that family will vote on Thursday. I'm actually ashamed that I voted for this man... but remember, the election was 4 years ago, before Iraq was a big news item. The Government may have decided to go to war in 2002, but they didn't tell the People that, until they had dreamed up a suitable excuse to go. LTS |
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03 May 05 - 04:59 AM (#1476849) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: GUEST You have very short memories, I remember the atrocities the conservatives caused in all areas and they will be with me till the day I die. |
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03 May 05 - 07:11 AM (#1476878) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: George Papavgeris I am with you 100% Ake. Taking the country to war using lies should be an indictable offence. The fact that there have been no moves to punish Blair for this first from within his party, condemns the whole party in my book. Sorry - this is not Labout in any shape or form. It's a bunch of self-serving liars. The more honourable ones resigned already. Neither would I vote for the Tories. Apart from their history, Howard's worrying comments on immigration, gypsies etc, his tax promises based on maths that doesn't add up, his party was also complicit in the war. And so the only one who makes sense is the LibDems. Blair has lost 3 votes to them, in our household, and that may well be for more than just this election. Neither do I believe Blair's threat about the Tories getting back in "if just 10% of Labour voters abstain". If Blair lied to take us to war, will you believe him on this? Just do the maths yourselves - the data are available on the BBC website; the "10%" claim is pure hokum. I do believe in the civic duty to express one's wishes through their vote. And I never believed in "tactical voting". Every time it was used as a threat it subsequently proved to have been an empty one. If we, the people, don't register our disgust at having been lied to so blatantly, then we deserve all we (will surely) get. |
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03 May 05 - 07:12 AM (#1476879) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: George Papavgeris WORSE - we become like them... |
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03 May 05 - 08:04 AM (#1476895) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: GUEST "Paul Ekman, the world's top expert in reading facial expressions, has a favourite video tape that shows Margaret Thatcher denying she had given permission to torpedo the Argentinian cruiser General Belgrano. This later proved to have been a lie" |
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03 May 05 - 12:19 PM (#1477111) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: Liz the Squeak Guest - there is nothing wrong with my memory.. I grew up with Maggie Thatcher as the Prime Minister, but I also remember the 'Winter of Discontent', 3 day working weeks, enforced power cuts for several hours a day and the first vote of no confidence for 50 years with Sunny Jim Callaghan, a Labour minister who was Prime Minister after Wilson resigned. "Social amnesia - memory driven out of mind by the social and economic dynamic of this society... The intensification of the drive for surplus value and profit accelerates the rate at which past goods are liquidated to make way for new goods; planned obsolescence is everywhere, from consumer goods to thinking to sexuality. Built-in obsolescence exempts neither thought nor humans. What is heralded as young or new in things, thoughts or people masks the constant: this society...Exactly because the past is forgotten, it rules unchallenged...Social amnesia is society's repression of remembrance - society's own past." (Russell Jacoby — Social Amnesia). LTS |
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03 May 05 - 02:48 PM (#1477221) Subject: RE: BS: Drip, drip, drip. From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Social amnesia also seems to have wiped out of the national memory the inflation rate of 21.9%, and the billions of pounds owed to the International Monetary Fund, in 1979 under the same smiling Jim Callaghan. Two problems that Maggie DID manage to solve in a remarkably short time, albeit with a severe rise in unemployment. It should be remembered that Tony inherited the current inflation rate, which had already been stable for some time, as a direct result of Maggie's policies. Hasn't done much with that head start, has he? I suspect that, if Maggie Thatcher had stepped down in '88, when her policies began to come unglued, we might have had an acceptable Tory party now, either as a good opposition, or more likely as a moderate government. Food for thought? Perhaps Tony should think about that. Don T. |