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BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth

11 May 05 - 09:24 PM (#1482899)
Subject: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie

Here is an article- taken from an address to the Alliance for Democracy in Concord, Massachusetts - whose content makes one sick to one's stomach. How do we get our countries back? And yes, I hold the UK also culpable.

Corporate Control of Our Mainstream Media

11 May 05 - 09:36 PM (#1482908)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

And then there are actual letters from the front that contradict all the crap that the media put out too.

From an Assistant Division Commander In Iraq, private letter.

"Dear Friends,

"It isn't over yet, but today there was a resounding victory for freedom and democracy here in Baghdad. Having been here for a while now, many of us have grown weary of the hand-wringers, worriers, pessimists, whiners, and host of others who have been telling us for so long that all is lost in Iraq. Today we witnessed just how courageous the Iraqi people can be and how much they love their new-found freedom.

"After listening to the pundits tell us how terrible the Iraqi Security Forces are, today I watched the Iraqi Security Forces stand tall. They protected, 1,188 polling sites in Baghdad. Although there were a number of suicide bombers who attacked today, not a single one penetrated the perimeter of a polling site. There were several Iraqi policemen, and several Iraqi soldiers who lost their lives today. But they did not lose their honor or their courage; none of the 30,000 plus Iraqi Security Forces on duty in Baghdad ran away from danger today.

"At the site of our first suicide bombing of the day, voters did not lose their courage either. They quickly lined back up at the same site, spitting on the body of the suicide bomber as they passed by in line to vote. A woman came out of line and took the shoe of the bomber and put it on his face - a great insult to an Arab. The same was true at any polling site that had violence. Voters immediately lined up again to cast their vote. How many Americans value their privilege to vote enough to show that kind of courage?

"We have listened to many experts talk about how the Sunnis would not participate in the election. Polling sites in Abu Guyreb were moved to Gasaliya because the Iraqi Election Commission was concerned about security in Abu Guyreb. We watched thousands walk down the highway - Sunni Moslems - on the 7 mile round trip to the polling sites so they could vote. All under the threat that terrorists had been making that they would kill anyone who voted. How many Americans would do that?

"All over Baghdad the story was the same and I could tell a dozen stories of great courage and determination. Despite the enemy's campaign of terror, despite danger, threats, intimidation, and the sporadic incidents of violence and terror today, Iraqis turned out in determined, large numbers to vote. The excitement was moving. Even though the terrorists have said they will kill anyone with a "marked finger" (when you voted your finger was dipped in ink to keep people from voting a second time), voters paraded down the street holding their fingers up in joy and overwhelming pride.

"When I told one Iraqi I was sorry that people had died or been wounded today, he just said `freedom has a price, and this is the price that we must pay.' And every Iraqi I talked to said thank you to the United States for this opportunity, for this freedom, and how grateful they were for our help.

"I am sure it will only be hours until you start hearing all the `experts,' most of which have never been to Iraq, start trying to convince us that today was flawed, failed, or somehow less than a wonderful day and a blow for freedom. They are the same people who say we are failing here, that you couldn't do an election on the 30th of January, and on and on. It is true we haven't `won' here yet. It is not predetermined that we will win, and it will take continued sacrifice and determination on our part. Those who hate freedom and democracy will still fight, many to the death, to try to stop this march to freedom and prosperity by the Iraqis with our help. They are terrified of the thought of a free and democratic Iraq that leads this whole region to a democratic future.

"But despite this, I encourage you from here in Baghdad, for at least one day, to ignore the pundits and experts, to enjoy a day where a blow for freedom was struck. Know that somewhere in the world, because of the sacrifice of your friends, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, and countrymen; good won over evil, freedom over terror, and democracy over despotism.

"Last June 30, Iraq was given its sovereignty. Today, they earned their freedom. And we should all be joyful for that."

11 May 05 - 10:02 PM (#1482927)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

Brigadier General Mike Jones, Assistant Division Commander (Maneuver)
of the 1st Cavalry Division in the Baghdad Central area.

11 May 05 - 10:13 PM (#1482937)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie

Dave, no one is questioning the courage and hopes of the Iraqi people. What you just now posted has nothing whatever to do with the article I posted.

11 May 05 - 10:46 PM (#1482967)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Bobert

Like I've mentioned many times before in other threads, Scott Ritter, a former weapons inspector who was runnin' all over the country trying to get anyone to listen to what he had so say, was ignored by the New York Times and Judy MIller... It's like they had a job to do and they did it: Sell George Bush's war!!!

When I watch the news on TV I do so with an eye and ear toward trying to figure out just what Karl Rove wants the American people to ***think*** at any given time... Yeah, if he knows that thetre is bad news a comin' he'll get his PR boys together an' they will figgure out, thru control an' study groups, just how to present the bad news to make his boy Bush look god... Some great brainwashin' going on here and me hats off to Karl Rove... He would have served Hitler well...

Some things never change...

Bobert

11 May 05 - 10:48 PM (#1482969)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

"Some great brainwashin' going on here and me hats off to Karl Rove"

Doesn't need to brainwash; a light rinse will do in too many cases.

11 May 05 - 11:09 PM (#1482981)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Biskit

Bobert,
you are so eaten up with hate for George Bush you can't see the nose in front of your face, this wasn't George Bush's war as you are oft quoted as saying, but it was a joint struggle to give the Iraqi people a chance at freedom,fought by, and for, courageous men and women against tyranny, and oppression and you know what,?? they are winning! despite you and your ilks effort to distort the truth to undermine the progress that they have made with your damnable lies and half truths, they will win the day. and when that day comes. I hope you choke on every one of your lies you rotten bastard.
Biskit! Gawddamnit!

11 May 05 - 11:22 PM (#1482987)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

"but it was a joint struggle to give the Iraqi people a chance at freedom"

Funny. I recall that the American people were told it was to

1) overthrow Saddam Hussein
2) get their hands on WMDs

Just an observation, because Hussein is gone and so were the WMDs. So why are all those troops still there? And when will they be leaving do ya think?

11 May 05 - 11:23 PM (#1482988)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Ebbie.. The only thing controlled about the media is a bias for sensationalizing trivia; and the ability to generate public opinion in a 30 second misinformation spot on electronic news. The printed media will not print anything that does not agree with the coporate political bent of the editorial staff. (this applies to both right wing and left wing elements). One reason I do not subscribe to any newspapers, and watch even less television today than I did ten years ago. So yes in a way it does apply to your post.

Yours, Aye. Dave

11 May 05 - 11:25 PM (#1482991)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Stilly River Sage

Biskit, you're so blinded by your love of George Bush that you can't see the truth that's in front of you--that not only did George start an immoral war, he is the one who fostered and in his own deluded way encouraged the current "insurgency" that plagues Iraq today. The U.S. is in an extremely perilous position in the world today, thanks to Dubya trying to prove to that world that he has bigger balls than his Daddy did as president.

You will certainly gag when you realize you took Dubya's story hook, line, and sinker.

SRS

11 May 05 - 11:27 PM (#1482993)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,artbrooks

Yes, our soldiers in Iraq are, or at least they were when they started, courageously fighting against tyranny and oppression. Yes, this will eventually give the Iraqi people a chance at freedom they likely never would have had. However, it is also true that Mr. Bush lied about there being weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and he lied about Saddam Hussain supporting Al Quaida or being a threat to the US. So, we now have over 1600 dead heros. Why? Who choose us as the world's policemen?

11 May 05 - 11:28 PM (#1482994)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

IF they fail, it will not be because the servicemen and women from all of the countries who have served in Iraq were not brave enough or did not do their jobs properly. IF they fail it will be because the US never had as its agenda to free the Iraqi people from anything, but to secure the oil for the oil companies. Please don't tell me to choke on that, Biskit, because it's the truth.

But that's not what Ebbie's article is about.

11 May 05 - 11:53 PM (#1483002)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,TIA

Hey Biskit - just a wildass guess...do you watch Fox News?

11 May 05 - 11:58 PM (#1483005)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

In fairness to Biskit, maybe the British people were told something else.

12 May 05 - 12:03 AM (#1483008)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Amos

HUZZAH for the few who can see clearly enough, and speak plainly enough, and think straight enough, to throw off the Great Curved Lie. There ha sbeen more spin per cubic brain cell spewed out of Bush's media machine than in the last ten presidencies combined, including Nixon and Clinton. The man is half-mad and all selfish.

A

12 May 05 - 12:12 AM (#1483011)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

It's interesting that so much 'revisionist' history is out there already. Really.

I had understood--when I supported the war and was pissed at my own government for not supporting the US/UK/Spain/Bulgaria effort--that the aim was to get rid of Hussein (a $.50 piece of lead could have done that) and get WMDs out of the hands of Iraqis. Now, years after the war commenced, I am finding out that the war has been about freedom and democracy for an oppressed people. Wonder why the US leadership didn't say that to begin with?

12 May 05 - 12:17 AM (#1483012)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,TIA

One more thing Biskit: Here's your homework assignment. Go back and read Bobert's posts from the last 2.5 years, and list the "damn lies and half truths". Was he wrong about 100,000 Iraqi casualties? Was he wrong abouth no W's of MD? Was he wrong about house-to-house urban warfare? And how many times has his postion changed? I am sick to F-in death of the selective gymnastic memories of warhawks. Please find one goddam story and stick to it for at least one month.

BTW, I'm sorry. If we met in person, I'm sure I'd like you (although you should reserve the right to think I'm an ass). I even fight with loved ones/relatives over this shitty subject.

12 May 05 - 12:17 AM (#1483013)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST

Because in order to say that, they would have had to clean up their own country first

12 May 05 - 12:19 AM (#1483014)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST

Sorry TIA,I was responding to brucie, there (in case you were wondering...)

:-)

12 May 05 - 12:31 AM (#1483019)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,TIA

I recall damn well - from the speech made on the eve of the invasion - that the reason was mushroom clouds (nucular, of course), aluminum tubes and yellowcake to be given to the "terrists". The quote was something like "Saddam must disarm immedately, or we will invade".

Please correct me. Please go find a citation for a quote remotely resembling "please provide freedom and democracy immediately, or we will invade".

Tell ya what - I'll hold my breath. Aaahhhhhhp..........

12 May 05 - 12:49 AM (#1483024)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Bee-dubya-ell

Television is the most extraordinarily effective tool of mass control that has ever been invented by anyone anywhere.

Amen! The physiological and psychological alterations that one undergoes while watching television are so severe that if they came in a pill, it'd be illegal to sell it.

KILL YOUR TELEVISION!

12 May 05 - 12:52 AM (#1483025)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

I did that years ago, Bruce.

12 May 05 - 12:55 AM (#1483028)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: DougR

Ebbie: would you also accept as truth, editorial opinions that the invasion of Iraq was a positive thing for world peace?

That, after all, is what they are, opinions. The fact that they happen to coincide with yours does not really make them true.

DougR

12 May 05 - 01:10 AM (#1483036)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Amos

Doug:

Did the hypocrisy of the proposition "War is Peace" ever get mentioned to you in a book somewhere?

The invasion of Iraq forced a complex situation into a gargantuan bonfire where everything is fuel and no cost is too great.

It was a reckless and immature solution which has cost the world more than it has given it.

Compared to other coursers of action that might have achieved comparable results without the paralyzing cost ofg human lives and destroyed cities, it was a psychotic course of action.

A

12 May 05 - 01:13 AM (#1483037)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: dianavan

DougR - The invasion of Iraq has done nothing for world peace.

War does not equal peace. Maybe if the U.S. were at war on their own soil, you would realize that. Awfully smug of you to talk of peace when your boys are killing and maiming thousands, not to mention destroying whole cities.

Your arrogance is nauseating.

12 May 05 - 02:14 AM (#1483048)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

"Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one." - Alfred J. Liebling

12 May 05 - 02:22 AM (#1483050)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie

Just in case, Doug R, that you didn't get around to reading the article that I linked, here is a bit of it. Does this sound like OPINION to you? The non-highlighted part is from the perspective of the person who wrote the article; the bolded part is the evidence, both spoken and by photographs, given by someone who WAS there.

"The frustration I feel personally knowing that I and everyone else are being deliberately deceived and misdirected is topped by only one thing: The rage, horror and sorrow I feel when I finally do manage to carve through the crap and get to the truth. Because the truth, friends and neighbors, is so much worse than you can possibly imagine.

"In this mean and meager time of pre-packaged, pre-processed, corporate-controlled infotainment that passes itself off as 'news,' it is a rare and refreshing experience to see and hear a true journalist reporting the facts. I was privileged a couple of weeks ago to share a stage in Boston with Dahr Jamail, the reporter who could not stomach the biased non-news coming out of Iraq after the invasion, and went over there to see and report on what was happening himself.

"Jamail spoke in a calm and precise manner on what he had seen while in Iraq. His words carried the weight of witness, but more devastating than what he said was what he showed the crowd. For an hour, Jamail flashed photograph after photograph from Iraq on a large screen. It is one thing to hear the truth. It is another again to see it, in slide after slide, through the eyes of a man who was there and returned to tell the tale.

"Jamail's photo essay described the current situation in the starkest of terms. Buildings that had been bombed out during the invasion remain today blasted and unusable piles of rubble. One photo showed a blown-out supermarket with a collapsed roof. He took the picture in 2003, but showed it on Monday night because it looks the same today as it did when the bomb first fell. There are many times many such damaged buildings. The ones that remain standing are often pockmarked from machine gun fire.

"In a nation with the second largest proven stores of petroleum on earth, there are today gas lines that make the American gas-line experience of the 1970s seem a picnic by comparison. Iraqis must spend two days in their cars, sleeping in them overnight, to get a rationed 7.5 liters of gasoline, provided the station does not run out before they get to the pump. Jamail interviewed a high-ranking member of the Petroleum Ministry, who reported that the oil infrastructure is stable enough to provide gas to the country. That gas is not being provided, said the Minister, because the Americans are not pumping it, but sitting on it.

"Hospitals in Iraq are in utterly deplorable condition, with few specialists to treat common illnesses and the wounds inflicted on civilians by the bomb and the bullet, and almost no medicine. Almost all the best-trained and highest-ranking medical professionals have fled the country because they are targeted by criminal gangs seeking to extort money from them, leaving undertrained residents to handle the load. A Health Minister interviewed by Jamail said Coalition officials had promised $1 billion in medical aid. To date, almost none of that has been provided.

"The sanitary conditions are almost beyond description; one photo showed a hospital bathroom that was filled from wall to wall with urine and feces, because the plumbing does not work. To make matters worse, ambulances are targeted by American forces because they fear the vehicles are being used by resistance fighters. Jamail showed a photo of one such targeted ambulance that looked as though it had been driven through a blast furnace.

"In the best Iraqi neighborhoods, there is electricity available for eight hours a day. The rest of the nation gets electricity for perhaps three hours a day, if at all. At least two car bombs a day can be heard and felt, and the supposedly-safe Green Zone constantly comes under bombardment. Dead and bloated cattle line the roads, said roads existing in profoundly damaged condition.

"Some 70% of the population is unemployed, leaving a great deal of spare time for despair and rage to take root. A good portion of the violent resistance, reported Jamail, is being carried out by foreign fighters, Baathist holdouts and former Iraqi military personnel. But more and more, everyday Iraqis are picking up guns, he said, because conditions are so despicable. "

How dare we sit over here opining as to conditions over there when we have not been there- and refuse to take as truth the evidence given by people who HAVE been there.

12 May 05 - 08:15 AM (#1483216)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Bobert

The only liberation that has occured as a result of Bush's immoral war are the tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of folks who when the dust settles will have been liberated from *life*.... Throw in even a greater number of folks who will be seriously disabled and this decision will one day be such an immoral one that even the best of the immoral historical revisionist won't get the stains out of it...

Bobert

12 May 05 - 10:55 AM (#1483324)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Perhaps you might consider this. The hospitals are in that condition because the tyrant that ran the country used money that was supposed to go to medical supplies and food, for weapons and to support his military control and lavish lifestyle. Money that the UN was supposed to monitor and control. We now find out that there was corruption involved in the highest levels of UN administration. War damage done to Iraqs infrastructure would be repaired faster if insurgents (some foreign supplied) stop the daily kidnapping and bombing campaigns. Now the war is over, where is the UN? as usual it is proving itself as useless and incompetent as ever in suppling useful assistance to a country that desperately needs it. The USA is at least trying to get some semblance of civil goverment back in control, and for the most part Iraqi's are restoring and developing the country. Rome wasnt built in a day, and neither will Iraq. You can take lots of pictures and provide all kinds of commentary, but it is action and deeds that restore a country after war, not mindless bleeding by international media.

12 May 05 - 12:38 PM (#1483388)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Possibly, Dave. But had the US really had as its goal the liberation of the Iraqi people, it would have followed an entirely different (and much more effective) strategy for prosecuting the war, and the insurgency would not be the problem for reconstruction that it is today.

However, you seem to not have read the article...

A Health Minister interviewed by Jamail said Coalition officials had promised $1 billion in medical aid. To date, almost none of that has been provided.

If the US really even gave a tiny little shit about the welfare of the Iraqi people (which it does not), it wouldn't just promise this money. It would also deliver it.

12 May 05 - 01:07 PM (#1483420)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

Has it stuck people that maybe the US has NO intention of leaving Iraq anytime soon?

12 May 05 - 03:52 PM (#1483551)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,TIA

Of course we're not leaving. If we were leaving, why would we have contractors building 14 PERMANENT BASES
in Iraq?

12 May 05 - 04:19 PM (#1483571)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr

where is the UN dave? the UN pulled out because the US couldnt provide the security. Anyway its not up to the UN do anything, this was an optional war that Bush and the neocons pushed, alienating most of the US's allies, and discarding some of the very reasons that the UN was created for in the first place.

The UN is not some independent entity anyway but forum in which nations can resolve their differences, where war is legally defined and used as a last resort. It was founded by far seeing people who had just lived through the worst great power war in history, and who knew that the next one fought with nuclear weapons - would be far worse.
Bush discarded it in favour of the law of the jungle, essentially what we had in the 19th century.

It was never about terrorism. It was not even about oil.
It was about establishing and maintaining pax americana through military supremacy. The project of the alqaeda islamists collided with and energized the project of the neocons. (THis isnt some secret conspiracy, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfeld and CHeney have all either given speeches and published papers on this topic.

There have been some 23 different reasons given by the administration for invading Iraq. Whats amazing is just how much the american people have bought it. Why is it that more than 50% still believe that Iraq and 911 are still linked?

As occupier it is up to the US to provide security and help rebuilding. One of the dumbest military decisions (probably of the last century) had to be disbanding the Iraqi military and releasing 1000s of idle and embittered young men WITH their weapons.
Instead of putting them to work cleaning up the streets, the plugged up sewers, restoring electricity and paying them for it. THe group in charge before Viceroy Bremer replaced them, had planned and budgeted for it.

With only 2% of the IRaqi population seeing the US as liberators it is only a matter of time and sadly when enough American kids sent over there die, and the MOGADISHU Line is crossed. (that would be the number of US dead, the American population will accept) There is also the high cost borne by the US taxpayer. And unlike Wolfowitz predicted the cost of the war certainly hasnt been paid for by the oil revenues.

As for Pax Americana, see what happened to Britain.
THe US has 4% of the worlds population, and a rapidly declining 20% of the economy. In 30 years, CHinas economy is set to overtake the US,
with India close behind. Right now the European Union and other countries are taking a wait and see attitude, but if the US stays on its unilateral path, the world is going to go back to the old system of alliances and re-armament of the 19th century.

IT may be really surprising but the rest of the world isnt interested in the US being its globocop.

12 May 05 - 05:03 PM (#1483615)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

If the UN was doing the job it's supposed to do, it would be convening a war crimes tribunal against the US and Britain, as well as slapping the US and Britain with some heafty sanctions.

12 May 05 - 05:39 PM (#1483644)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: DougR

brucie: the coalition troops (yes including U. S. troops) will leave Iraq when the Iraqis can provide thir own securty

12 May 05 - 05:49 PM (#1483650)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,TIA

First we were told this departure would be within 3 months of invading. Then we were told it would take 6 months. Then we were PROMISED it would be the following July (16 months). Then it was "admitted" that it would probably be up to 5 years. Now, anyone with a shred of integrity (e.g. John McCain) are saying more like 15 years.

And the pre-invasion protestors were AND STILL ARE ridiculed for claiming Iraq would be (is) a quagmire. Worse, they are branded unpatriotic, unsupportive of the troops - even treasonous for saying this. So, who was correct in March of 2003, and since when is being correct treasonous?

12 May 05 - 06:27 PM (#1483676)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

The troops will remain until there is no more oil to secure, or until there is a regime in power in Iraq that will unconditionally do the bidding of the US government and the oil companies.

12 May 05 - 07:21 PM (#1483717)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

If the UN had done its job, this would not have happened.

12 May 05 - 07:55 PM (#1483735)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST

Dave: what rubbish. the iraq war occured because of an agenda pursued by the bush admin. and cronies. the UN was used and abused in the process. as stated upthread, the reason they are not there now is that the US cannot (will not) secure the area. that is due to insane planning by the geniuses at defense OR to the fact that constant chaos allows the US to pursue its true purpose of building permanant bases and keeping a large military prescence in this key oil-producing area. which one do you think?

12 May 05 - 08:25 PM (#1483746)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr

GBush uses international law only when its convenient..
Cheney 'we dont need a permission slip from the UN to invade Iraq'

GWBush, 'Saddam was breaking International law UN resolutions..'
looks like you can have it both ways..
(its ok except when it applies to the US)..
theres still kids being born in Vietnam with no arms and legs, thanks to Agent Orange. I bet if a foreign power had used a toxic chemical defoliant on US territory in such a way, the US would be looking for all sorts of legal recourse.

The real issue of this thread is the misinformation in the US newsmedia.
Concentration, The right wing bias, the insidious control of public television, PBS and cutting any programs not favorable to the BUsh administration.
Luckily there is the internet, and before long, internet television hich is coming.

you might want to read gwynne dyers articles, www.gwynnedyer.net
for a fairly accurate insight into whats happening.

12 May 05 - 08:30 PM (#1483748)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Dave, the UN was doing its job, until the US forced them to leave Iraq, making it impossible for them to continue doing their job.

12 May 05 - 08:53 PM (#1483755)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,Jon

LOL Dave.

From that leaked memo"


"We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force."

...

"The Prime Minister said that it would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the UN inspectors."

...

Contary to expectations, Saddam allowed this and from then I seem to remember the UN finding no smoking guns and us being sold tales like the 45 minute bit when all along they at least knew long before...

Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran.

...


but of course it was all summed up by...

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action.

and

It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin.

12 May 05 - 08:53 PM (#1483756)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: mg

Are you a tiny bit happy about Afghanistan? Or that #3 Al Queda was just captured? Is there a glimmer of hope anywhere? No oil that I know of, but sure lots of emeralds. Must be why we are there...watch for Laura Bush and Condi Rice to be fabulousy bejeweled at times. mg

12 May 05 - 10:05 PM (#1483767)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Afghanistan is where the route for a very important oil pipeline is supposed to go. That is why the US invaded that country.

12 May 05 - 10:50 PM (#1483782)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST

afghanistan: 3 days of anti-american riots, troops open fire on unarmed demonstrators, several killed. what a sucess story, eh? alqueda#3: debunked by british and american intelligence. the guy was "part of the flotsam and jetsam" (bbc).
glimmer of hope? well, it's one day closer to 2008 when we might be shed of the criminal that now occupies the whitehouse.

12 May 05 - 11:08 PM (#1483789)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Bobert

mary garvey,

Are you collectin' information from any other source other than Fox TV???

I mean, no offense, but your arguments are like charactitures... Hey, there ***are*** other sources other than Fox...

Are you aware of the herion/cokaine industry???

Are you aware that Taliban/warloards still run well over 90% of Afganistan???

I mean, like I said "no offense", but you trivialize your own self by the sources that you apparently use as you ***news sources***...

And are you aware that the Bush administration has shifted its drug inforcement away from herion and crack cokaine toward kids smokin' pot???

Maybe you'd like to explain why Fox thinks this is the way to fight the "War on Drugs'????

Seems to me like an emergency room takin' the case of sniffles over the gun shot victim????....

Bobert

12 May 05 - 11:12 PM (#1483793)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: dianavan

Read this if you think conditions in Iraq are great!

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7818807/site/newsweek/

12 May 05 - 11:36 PM (#1483809)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Well you can read things that claim to be the truth, but I dont accept everything I read in the press as gospel truth. As for Iraq, I state again if the UN had done its job this would not have happened, that I know is fact.

I dont blame Bush for taking action based on what he was told by so called Intelligence; and as far as the vehement anti Bush threads here, I know I'm wasting my time trying to debate it. BTW, just for the record I am no fan of your president either.

Yours, Aye. Dave

13 May 05 - 12:11 AM (#1483822)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie

It seems odd to me that so many say that the UN is no good, it is useless, it need not be listened to - and then they say that the US had to take out Saddam because he didn't obey the UN. ??

13 May 05 - 12:36 AM (#1483829)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: George Papavgeris

Hey, Ebbie, gimme the cause, I'll justify it for ya. Looking for integrity in official US policies as regards Iraq is like looking for logic in Shambles.

DougR challenged us to agree that the Iraq war has benefitted world peace. Sure, it has. That is why we have increased security at airports, and that is why the other day the staff at the White House was scrambled to safety when the Cessna entered Washington airspace. It's because of the increased world peace that these things are happening...right? And for the same reason the Australian engineer got abducted, and 80 were killed in Iraq by suicide bombers yesterday.

And that is why my Mum says: "Next time you come to visit us, why not drive across Europe for 2 days instead of flying?".

It's because of the world peace benefit from the Iraq war.

Sorry Doug, but such an erudite argument deserves an equally elegant response - bollocks.

13 May 05 - 01:26 AM (#1483840)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

As for Iraq, I state again if the UN had done its job this would not have happened, that I know is fact.

Sorry Dave. Not only is that not a fact, it is also wrong. The UN was doing its job. The fact that there were no WMD found in Iraq after the invasion that did not already have the UN inspections team seal on them is proof of that. The US invaded Iraq because it wanted to. That's all.

13 May 05 - 02:18 AM (#1483853)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie

"The US invaded Iraq because it wanted to. That's all. " Carol C

I think that about covers it. And it seems to me that those who still strive to paint a different face on it would find it a great relief just to repeat that sentence as a mantra. Then we can proceed on to the larger subject as to whether a country has the right to act on such a desire.

13 May 05 - 02:39 AM (#1483859)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,Jo McDromney

security in the western world changed forever on 9/11.

Jo

13 May 05 - 03:46 AM (#1483887)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Boab

If Doug R. --or anyone else--- truly are convinced that the U.S. will have no military presence in Iraq 'when the Irqis can provide their own security", they should refrain from criticising anyone who makes a case for the existence of fairies and goblins.

13 May 05 - 03:52 AM (#1483890)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: George Papavgeris

Sort of right, Jo, but not quite. Our perception of security changed after 9/11. The facts of security were what they were already - the day before 9/11 the hijackers were getting ready but (some of) the world was blind to the possibilities of terrorism.

And since 9/11 security has escalated again and again. 9/11 is a landmark date for the awakening of the world, not for security getting worse.

13 May 05 - 11:16 AM (#1484166)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Tell that to the thousands murdered by Saddam CarolC i'm sure they were comforted by the fact the UN had inspectors there checking for his WMD

13 May 05 - 12:08 PM (#1484226)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Tell that to the thousands murdered by Saddam CarolC i'm sure they were comforted by the fact the UN had inspectors there checking for his WMD

This might be a valid point, Dave, if not for the fact that those murders were not ongoing during the time period in question. Most of the large scale killings that Saddam was responsible for (usually with the help of the US) had stopped years before the US began planning the invasion.

13 May 05 - 12:16 PM (#1484232)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: mg

well thank heavens at last there is some good news from Oliver North\, who sees a bit of improvement here and there...it is OK to be a little bit hopeful\, despite the travails everyone over there is going through. http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ollienorth/on20050513.shtml mg

13 May 05 - 12:35 PM (#1484242)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Try again CarolC, he was murdering and so were his two sons who liked to feed people to their pet lions... Nice people eh? pity they were deposed perhaps Saddam should be put in charge of the UN human rights tribunal.

13 May 05 - 12:51 PM (#1484255)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Here's what Amnesty International has to say on the subject of waging war on Iraq in the name of human rights. There is a more detailed report from them on this subject somewhere, and I am trying to find it. However, Amnesty International states very clearly that when weighing the costs to Iraqi civilians of the US waging war on Iraq as compared to the cost to them of the US not waging war on Iraq, the negative costs of an invasion and occupation would exceed and outweigh any possible benefits...

USA/Iraq : Not in the name of human rights

13 May 05 - 01:27 PM (#1484275)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

And please cite sources for your pet lion story. Keep in mind that those incubator stories that were being sold as truth around the world by the US media about Saddam were proven to be lies.

13 May 05 - 01:31 PM (#1484280)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie

Yep. That Oliver North is one guy whose judgment and ethics I would respect. Not.

Lots about Khalilzad

"George Bush has named the disease: Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.

"But rest easy. He has also named the cure: Dr. Zalmay Khalilzad.

"Dr. Khalilzad? Would that be the same Zalmay Khalilzad who oversaw the mobilization, leadership, funding and coordination of, and the media support for, the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who devastated Afghanistan and Bosnia?

"That's the man.

"Dr. Khalilzad is in charge of a large part of Asia and the Middle East for the National Security Council. He has *two* field positions: special U.S. envoy to Afghanistan *and* special U.S. envoy to the Iraqi opposition. [1]

"Why those two? Afghanistan and Iraq aren't even in the same region. They are separated by 1424 miles, Baghdad to Kabul. [2]

"Those miles have a name. It's Iran. Could that be a clue?"

13 May 05 - 01:55 PM (#1484298)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

More from Amnesty International (this is not the more comprehensive report, but it is relevant nevertheless)...

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140112002?open&of=ENG-IRQ

13 May 05 - 02:20 PM (#1484319)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: akenaton

Carol.... How can you keep your cool with these fucking numbskulls.

I think you deserve an endurance medal...Ake

13 May 05 - 02:40 PM (#1484328)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr

Hey dave,..
they US already knew that Saddam and his sons werent nice people back in the 80's when they supplied him with weapons, (including anthrax), satellite reconnaisance and fully backed him in his (8year) war against Iran. (Im sure youve seen the nice clip of Rummy vigourously shaking hands with Saddam back when he was 'their bastard') Of course they also illegally supplied Iran with arms as well.

they didnt go to war to topple Saddam, because his sons fed people to the lions, but because of the threat of WMDs, remember Condi Rice Mushroom Cloud?, and an alleged link to Al Qaeda.
none of which materialized.

13 May 05 - 04:54 PM (#1484442)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Thanks, akenaton. But I don't think Dave (tam) is a numbskull. I think he is a good (and intelligent) person who wants to do what is right. I have a lot of respect for him as a human being.

13 May 05 - 05:18 PM (#1484457)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

"And since 9/11 security has escalated again and again. 9/11 is a landmark date for the awakening of the world, not for security getting worse."

EG, I find usually that your posts are much more considered than this one.

Terrorism has existed in Europe for decades; in the middle east for decades; in the US for a few also. BUT, something happened in the US on 9/11 and all of a sudden there is a terrorist threat to the world. HUH?

13 May 05 - 05:26 PM (#1484461)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

9/11 has turned into a bullshit excuse for the US to have a shot at world domination. Interpreting it any other way is dangerous. The US is trillions of dollars in debt. I figure they must think they have no choice. So, this is the Neocon 'big' play.

13 May 05 - 08:00 PM (#1484553)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: robomatic

It's not over yet.

13 May 05 - 08:08 PM (#1484559)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

IMO, the next big "terrorist" attack on the US will occur just in time for Bush and the crew to declare martial law--about two to two and one half years.

13 May 05 - 08:11 PM (#1484562)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr

bang on brucie, and in so few words too.

the only problem is that in the long term economics trumps all.
and the US is sliding deeper into debt and losing its economic base
(the neocons know,or expect, since the US is the largest economy and everyone would be hurt with a US$ collapse the rest of the world would not allow it to happen) and they may be right.

But remember when the Pound Sterling was the currency of choice?
and that position that Britain enjoyed at the turn of the century.

theres bound to be some big economic changes over the next 30years.
ie. big growth in China and India. Eventually the demographics of North America will make the current white majority into a visible minority.

13 May 05 - 08:42 PM (#1484581)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST

There is no argument from me about Bush using the wrong reasons to do the right thing, and that is to despose Saddam. I said it when the war was first fought my exact words at the time were " We shall have to go back ten years from now and do it all again" You can sum up the stupidity of the UN/USA by reading Theodore Roosevelts words.

"My disagreement with the peace-at-any-price men, the ultrapacifists, is not in the least because they favor peace. I object to them, first, because they have proved themselves futile and impotent in working for peace, and second, because they commit what is not merely the capital error but the crime against morality of failing to uphold righteousness as the all-important end toward which we should strive ... I have as little sympathy for them as they have for the men who deify mere brutal force, who insist that power justifies wrongdoing, and who declare that there is no such thing as international morality. But the ultra-pacifists really play into the hands of these men. To condemn equally might which backs right and might which overthrows right is to render positive service to wrong-doers ... To denounce the nation that wages war in self-defense, or from a generous desire to relieve the oppressed, in the same terms in which we denounce war waged in a spirit of greed or wanton folly stands on a par with denouncing equally a murderer and the policeman who, at peril of his life and by force of arms, arrests the murderer. In each case the denunciation denotes not loftiness of soul but weakness both of mind and morals." -- Theodore Roosevelt

13 May 05 - 08:44 PM (#1484583)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Sorry the last guest was me sans cookie

13 May 05 - 08:45 PM (#1484584)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

I am with you on that, petr, very much so.

And who would be the new head of the World Bank? Geeze, I wonder . . . .

13 May 05 - 09:53 PM (#1484624)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: dianavan

So Dave, if the Iraqis earned their freedom on the day they voted, why has the state of emergency decree been issued for ANOTHER month?

From the Boston Globe:

"The emergency decree, which has been renewed monthly since first being imposed Nov. 7, includes a nighttime curfew and gives the government extra powers to make arrests without warrants and launch police and military operations when it deems necessary."

13 May 05 - 10:22 PM (#1484644)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Dianavan, That question requires a very complex answer. To put it in simple terms: The battlefield known as Iraq has become several wars in one. Outside extremist groups, (including Al Queida) who hate America, are now using it to attack the USA directly, with the advantage of operating in "friendly territory" no pun intended.

Iraqi tribal groups want to disrupt and gain control of the country, or are scared they will lose any share of financial control of assets without greater power. Have to throw in a mention of one National group; the poor bloody Kurds who get shafted by two Bush administrations as well as the Turks.

Criminals who see that it is still possible to encite local gang warfare in order to divert attention from their own agenda's.
Of course there are the religious motivated leaders who want absolute power over the country but they can be included in the tribal section if you prefer.

Then there are the mercenary countries who benefit from America failing to stabilize Iraq and its oil rich markets. They simply support any and all assholes who will get violent and cause mayhem.

Details of why the laws are in place can be obtained, by talking to any security or military experts. Who will gladly flesh out the complex problems facing the new Iraq, and its attempt at forming an elected federal, provincial and municipal form of virgin democratic administration with all this going on. For a price of course ;-)

Yours, Aye. Dave

13 May 05 - 11:58 PM (#1484693)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: mg

They should have had martial law from the very beginning, and they should have retained and retrained and closely monitored the military that was there already with some great purges at the top. They have to have martial law because it is needed there obviously. It will be for a while. mg

14 May 05 - 12:04 AM (#1484697)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

I suspect that someday Canada will also be treated to US martial law.

14 May 05 - 12:11 AM (#1484700)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

It didn't have to happen that way, Dave. Had the US really had as its goal the liberation of the Iraqi people and the nurturing of democracy in the Middle East, it was very much within the power of the US government and military to prosecute the war in a way that wouldn't produce the results we see now. The fact that this was not done could be due to incompetence and stupidity on the part of the US government, or it could be because the US government wants it this way. I tend to suspect the latter.

14 May 05 - 01:22 AM (#1484738)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Well CarolC I suspect you are correct in that they may have wanted a battlefield away from home, they have accomplished that one.
I disagree with your judgement that they had the power to prosecute the war in a different way. Their intelligence agents failed miserably with human intel gathering; and the over reliance on high tech stuff was in many ways an arrogance born of stupidity. I still think Bush was fed a diet of bad information; and I have to say I saw nothing in his planning that wasnt born of genuine shock and revulsion to 911.

Nuturing democracy in the Middle East brings to mind the old prose by Kipling..."A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East." I doubt if it is possible in our lifetime to change the way these countries exist. Several hundred years of induced ignorance, poverty and resistance to change will not be easily wiped out. There is always hope that education and the desire to live a better life will encourage the Middle East to adopt democracy. Opening the door to education and equality for women would be a good start. But like Kipling said:-
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear: "A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East."

there will be a lot more tombstones before we see the end.

14 May 05 - 01:32 AM (#1484741)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

They could (and should) have kept the Iraqi military infrastructure intact, instead of completely disbanding it. They could have weeded out the Saddam loyalists and kept the people who could be of use. They could have done a much better job of winning the peace. Much of the problems with insurgents stems from the way Iraqi civilians have been treated (very badly) by the US military. Many things could have been done to show respect for the people of Iraq that were not, such as securing the places where Iraq's national treasures and historic artifacts were kept, instead of allowing them to be completely ransacked. There are just so many ways in which the US government and the Pentagon in particular have shown absolute and utter contempt for and to the Iraqi people.

These things are just as much, if not more responsible for the state of affairs in Iraq as anything else. And combine that with the fact that the US government is not delivering on the reconstruction money it promised and the fact that people aren't getting their basic needs met, and you couldn't have a better recipe for the kind of problems that we face in Iraq right now.

No, this was done on purpose so that the US would have an excuse to keep its military in Iraq indefinitely.

14 May 05 - 01:51 AM (#1484745)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Trying to control a country and a military that fell appart so quickly would be beyond any capability of the US Army. As for treating the Iraqis better, lets just say the military are not social workers and policemen. It is very difficult to weed out the decent from the bad when everyone is yelling in a language you dont understand,and waving and shooting guns. As for protecting sites of national importance, they did take out explosives from shell casings using solid shot to disable the guns so as not to destroy the Mosques that Iraqi tanks and artillery were placed in and around.

Yes there are things that could have been handled better, but if given a choice I would rather surrender too, or be captured by a US soldier than a terrorist.

14 May 05 - 02:34 AM (#1484759)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST

"Trying to control a country and a military that fell appart so quickly would be beyond any capability of the US Army."

more rubbish from dave. do you recall that gen. shinseki (head of the army at the time) testified before congress and said that we would need at least 300,000 troops on the ground to handle the postwar responsibilities (this before the war began). he was marched off to a quick retirement with a push from rumsfeld who is responsible for the undermanning and wretched performance of our forces.

"As for treating the Iraqis better, lets just say the military are not social workers and policemen. It is very difficult to weed out the decent from the bad when everyone is yelling in a language you dont understand,and waving and shooting guns."

when you invade someone's country there will be waving and shooting of guns. if we had planned properly to secure the country the UN would be operating the peacekeeping forces a job they are designed for. we, unfortunately, abused the UN and the WMD inspectors to promote the bush admin. agenda and have failed to provide enough security to allow them to operate.

"I still think Bush was fed a diet of bad information; and I have to say I saw nothing in his planning that wasnt born of genuine shock and revulsion to 911."

absolute rubbish here. have you read the downing street memo? google it up. it is the official minutes of a meeting in britain several months before the war outlining to blair and his people how the US was fixing the intelligence to fit the scenario they wanted. an attitude of pure cynicism and evil carried out in our names. bush is a war criminal.

14 May 05 - 10:16 AM (#1484906)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,Amos

The Downing Street memo can be found here.


A

14 May 05 - 12:32 PM (#1484946)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,CarolC

This part right here is the part to notice, Dave:

There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

To not discuss, thoroughly and in great detail, the aftermath of the invasion, and to neglect to plan for it, you would have to be either very, very stupid and incompetent, or it would have to be your intention to not win the peace. One or the other.

Everything is going exactly according to plan. The oil is secure, US military bases are being constructed, and everything else is in chaos. That's exactly the way the US government wants it.

14 May 05 - 12:51 PM (#1484950)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,Amos

Carol:

You may be giving them too much credit. Bush is a stupid sonofabitch, even though he tries hard to be clever. Very stupid people can be crafty and artful in their colossal stupidity, just as some very intelligent people can be inept at social manipulation, because their deceit index is too low. Bush's index of deceit -- the amount he can tolerate generating without suffering qualms or psychosomatic illness -- is very high; he is not only stupid, he is a hidebound stupid sonofa bitch, a snake in the grass with body armor.

A

14 May 05 - 03:02 PM (#1484978)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,Clint Keller

Just found this:

QUOTATION OF THE DAY

"We wanted to reflect the real atmosphere of life in Iraq. You could get kidnapped here any time. Or a bomb could kill you. This is our life."
JAMAL ABED JASSIM, director and chief writer of "Love and War," a black comedy filmed in Iraq.


clint

14 May 05 - 04:45 PM (#1484993)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST

"Bush is a stupid sonofabitch"

I agree. However, it also doesn't matter since he does what he's told to do by Neocons.

15 May 05 - 02:24 AM (#1485184)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

I agree with Amos, the whole thing was very poorly planned and executed from the begining. When you analyse the UN inspectors track record you will find that they were:-

1: Restricted from visiting any sites that might have housed military hardware on a random basis.
2: Allowed controlled access to certain sites, but on a time table dictated by Saddam.
3: Prevented from interviewing alone anyone connected with military programs who might have had information on WMD's.
4: Sent out of the country and refused access until threats of direct action were made.
5: Allowed to return only when it suited Saddam to prevent any direct action being instigated.
6: Were not allowed transport without certain restrictions on movements within Iraq.

All in all a very unsatisfactory program that did not delay the removal and disposal of evidence. My comments on the inability of the US army to control Iraq and its military after the initial invasion stand. If the Guest who contends that what I have said is rubbish is here. I suggest you take some lessons on military history and tactics. Then come back with a name and debate with me in person; otherwise your comments are just cheap sniping remarks with no substance to them.

15 May 05 - 02:44 AM (#1485193)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Sorry, I forgot to mention. The US forces have done, and continue to do an outstanding job in an impossible situation. Even if they had put 500,000 troops into Iraq they would still be hard pressed to try and control the country. There are a lot of foreign mercenary interests who are determined to see the USA fail in Iraq; that is one major factor that makes it a no win situation. I reiterate that it should have been accomplished the first time, when Iraq invaded Kuwait. The only way the US army will be able to establish control is if Iraq can establish reasonable government, and reform its military and police. Since this is unlikely to happen quickly, they must plan for a long term stay.

15 May 05 - 04:06 AM (#1485206)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Boab

Dave, it seems from the reading of your views on Iraq that you are all alone in the [sane] world in your continuing belief in the originally-stated reason for attacking that country---the existence of weapons of mass destruction. When do you reckon they'll be discovered?
   And a long-term stay is already planned, no matter what government is elected, freely or otherwise, in Iraq. I see two scenarios which can achieve a decisive end to the cruel chaos in the Mid-East; 1) the rejection by the American people of the unholy gang which is now trying --and unfortunately succeeding---to spread its acquisitive tentacles across Asia, and 2) a realisation that the cost in U.S. lives and wellbeing will be ever-present and possibly increasing if the present course is maintained. It will be a blessing if the former scenario prevails. I think [and I hope] that the glory-seeking lapdog who is Premier in the UK will be among the first to notice his clay feet crumbling. Mr Bush should surely follow---for if the incumbents in the White House keep on keeping on, there could well be some very serious rumblings among the very high [and getting higher] proportion of Americans who abhor the lies and warmongering which have been the hallmark of this administration.

15 May 05 - 09:16 AM (#1485319)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ron Davies

Also (joining the discussion late) re: criticism of the UN's role:


As I've said several times on other threads (starting in spring 2004), the UN pulled Bush's chestnuts out of the fire in Iraq, by acting as honest broker between the various factions, thus making possible an Iraqi face on the opposition to the insurgents.

Without the UN, there's a good chance the many predictions, by Mudcatters, of Vietnam Part Two, would have come true.

As many other posters have already noted, Bush and the more fervent Bushites on this forum have wonderful chutzpah in claiming the violation of UN resolutions as justification for invading Iraq.

As has been pointed out ad nauseam by many others, the UN never authorized the invasion.

Re:   oil for food----under Cheney, Halliburton had absolutely no moral or ethical problem with evading sanctions.

For Bushites to try to claim the moral high ground now smacks of more than a little hypocrisy.

15 May 05 - 09:37 AM (#1485332)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: robomatic

I can't improve on the posts of Dave (TAM). Especially the quote from President Theodore Roosevelt, which puts in a nutshell the perceived weakness of the Democrats in the US, and the reason I think they lost the election.

I think we (the US and GB and 'coalition') are 'trying' to do the right thing against some very nasty bastards. I think we are in an era where we need a very with-it and savvy President, an above average President. President Bush is NOT stupid, but he is, unfortunately, too close to average. I think he may be doing the best he can.

The only other major thing (besides a more connected Administration) that would improve things is getting the world to assist. I think NATO or UN peacekeepers would have a more 'world-bearing-down' influence on the insurgents, but how much is anyone's guess, given their propensity for blowing up their own people in large numbers.

I here re-iterate a comment that I've made several times in various forum venues: that France, Germany, and Russia did themselves no favor and Europe no ultimate good by countering American involvement in Iraq. I think they left 'W' feeling lilke Gary Cooper in "High Noon" (whereas he is really Captain Queeg in "The Caine Mutiny").

I am continually impressed by Tony Blair's eloquence and political dexterity. I'm wondering if we'd fare better if he was boss of the show.

15 May 05 - 11:16 AM (#1485369)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Amos

Let me point out that Captain Queeg was starkers and psycho. I think the analogy is apt. It my be Bush himself, and it may be the trolls and warts he takes on for an entourage, but it is still his responsibility; he has unleashed murder and chaos on the strength of an empire-mad whim. The counter-forces being marshaled against him are no better, but both sides have left body parts and dead parents and wounded orphans all across the Mesopotamian sands, and it is a disgusting demonstration of human failure, greed, and destructiveness at its very worst. The fact that he can parade around posing as a political leader with this chaos on his hands, lying and butchering the English language as badly as his war-dogs have butchered the lives of so many people across the sea just redoubles his despicability rating. And his disrespect for the REAL construction of the American experiment, including his frivolous attitude and manipulative undermining of the constitution, simply demonstrates he is just as psychotic domestically as he has been internationally.

What he does do well is ruthless power games. But so does any two-bit dictator.
Don't tell me he isn't stupid. His solutions have lead to a morass of death and struggle. How smart is that? He has the brains of an iguana, and the personality of a horned toad. If you are fooled by his artificial twang and his posturing, shame on you. He's a lousy snake, and a lousy leader, and an incompetent President.



A

15 May 05 - 11:24 AM (#1485377)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: artbrooks

I recall saying to my wife early on, "ya know, if they never find any WMD, I expect that he will be impeached." Alas for my misplaced faith in our elected representatives.

15 May 05 - 12:28 PM (#1485417)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

Amos, he is all of that. However, the only part on which we differ substantially is this: he is not the leader, he is just the figurehead. He's too stupid to be a leader in anything but name. He's been easier to lead than a calf with a ring in its nose, and there is no doubt in my mind that he IS being led. When he will best serve the Neocon purpose by being out of the picture, that's what will happen.

The US has little choice but to impose martial law on its citizenry before the next election. The next election can not be allowed to happen in the US, and I think it won't. Look at recent times and connect the dots: the US is in massive debt (six TRILLION for a figure--about $17,000 for every man, woman and child in the country) and it's currently spending about a billion a day on a war where its stated purpose is to bring democracy/stability to Iraq. True, much of that money is being kept in the American economy by soldiers and companies paid with American tax dollars, but the war allows for troops to be available 24/7 in both Iraq AND the US.

Oil is getting scarce. Call that one the way you want--and yes I have read the various studies that show it will become scarcer and scarcer until in 2050 (the most optimistic estimate) when it just isn't available to the average guy anymore.

The world itself is on the brink of a totally new economic 'system', and that has been coming for at least 200 years now. The gold-based and silver-based dollar is a myth. The US doesn't have enough of either metal to back its currency. Enter a new leader of the World Bank who also helped write the US blueprint for the 21st century. Indeed, the times they are a-changin'.

I think that 9/11 was engineered. However, whether or not it was an intentional or simply convenient event, it did allow the passage of bills (laws) that have fundamentally changed America. I have wondered since 9/11 why the Twin Towers and the Pentagon were targeted. (I don't know what the fourth target was supposed to be.) A larger loss of life could have been accomplished by hitting a nuclear reactor; larger economic loss could have been achieved by hitting oil refinery complexes in New Jersey (just a few minutes away). So I'm left with the conclusion that the attacks were meant to stun, shock and awe the American people. Whether or not that was the purpose, the events DID stun, shock and awe the American people, enough so that the people have allowed the passage of bills that trade their freedom for a perceived security--and on paper it looks good. But the question that remains is this: Why were the attacks 'symbolic'?

Some questions that have plagued me since 9/11: Where did the debris of the Twin Towers end up? Why were there no independent chemicla tests done on the debris to determine precisely why the buildings collapsed as neatly as they did? Why do we hear nothing about building 7? It too came down perfectly, and on purpose. However, the decision to take it down was made one minute and the next, boom, and down it came. I do NOT believe that the charges to drop that building were installed in six or seven hours.

Scenario as I see it: About two years from now there will have to be another 'major event' in the US. I think two factions are fighting in Washington to control the future of the country and indeed the world. One is the Neocon faction, and the other is deeper, darker and more entrenched than that. I do think that Bush is part of the Neocon group. They are simply immoral money people. It's the other group that is scary. Mostly because they are so elusive.

Some of this stuff plays out like a Tom Clancy novel. That is interesting. A scenario that Clancy portrayed in one of his books has a nuclear weapon misfire in Colorado. Another scenario has the Congressional buildings hit by a plane heavily loaded with fuel. OK, so that's fiction, as was the release of an aerosol Ebola strain. But what isn't fiction are the repercussions. The Ebola scenario allowed the shutdown of interstate travel and the imposition of martial law. The people accepted it willingly for the most part because it was for their protection. In two years, what will the US people be willing to accept?

Wheteher the camps that were discussed on another thread are for the internment of Americans or not, what fascinated me was this: NO ONE disputed that the camps are there. People only disputed the end-purpose of the camps. Interesting.

In the words of some guy in a movie, "Add it all up and I don't know what the hell ya got." However, no matter how ya add it up, the US government is going to TELL you what the bottom line is.

I think your country is facing a 'coup d'etat'. And I think the American people are going to allow it to happen.

BM

15 May 05 - 12:35 PM (#1485423)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Boab, I am not alone in my thoughts on the WMD issue. There is no doubt in my mind that Saddam held, and had in his possesion reserves of poison gas; with the ability to construct and deliver biologcal and chemical weapons. The UN gave him adequate time to dispose of them; in fact there is some evidence (Israeli Intel) that stuff was transfered to Syria and buried. Complicity is something that you have ruled out completely in your arguments, there are many countries (bordering on Iraq) that support anti USA groups. Such activity is not only likely, it would be in Saddams best interests to support such groups; and therefore very likely he had willing contact with them.

yours, Aye. Dave

15 May 05 - 12:54 PM (#1485436)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: dianavan

Dave -

We can think anything that we want to think. Without proof or evidence its only imagination.

I think the U.S. administration continues to develop WMD's. Does that give Canada and its allies, the right to invade? I also think that the U.S. imprisons too many non-white people. Does that justify invasion? I also think the U.S. continues to manipulate freedom of speech. Should we invade?

Going to war without proof, evidence or support; is foolish in the extreme.

15 May 05 - 12:58 PM (#1485439)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

Not having had weapons of mass destruction and not having found weapons of mass destruction are two different things. However, go with this scenario: it is a good reason to tuck away for the future to invade yet another country. Follow the bouncing ball, if you will.

15 May 05 - 01:09 PM (#1485445)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: artbrooks

Brucie, you may want to go back and revisit the "camps" thread. Several people, myself among them, disputed the existance of individual camps, based upon our own personal knowledge.

15 May 05 - 01:10 PM (#1485446)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

OK.

15 May 05 - 01:14 PM (#1485451)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

Art, instead of 600, I'm willing to say that 200 are real military bases, renovations because they need to be renovated, etc. So then there are only 400. The point wasn't the number; rather, the point was the purpose.

BTW, I have no intent to get into arguments with anyone over my views. Most folks will think I'm crazy or paranoid or stupid or whatever. In this instance, I hope they're right. Nothing would please me more.

BM

15 May 05 - 01:31 PM (#1485468)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,you can call me al

"There is no doubt in my mind that Saddam held, and had in his possesion reserves of poison gas; with the ability to construct and deliver biologcal and chemical weapons."

dave, you can call me al. According to all the evidence presented to us in the media (the David Kay report and the recently closed CIA report) not only were there no WMDs, there is no evidence of anything being moved to syria or anyplace else. but you have no doubt. do you have info that we average americans can't get or are you just imagining things?

"in fact there is some evidence (Israeli Intel) that stuff was..."

where do you get your info on israli intelligence?

15 May 05 - 02:01 PM (#1485486)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

"and had in his possesion reserves of poison gas;"

The above is a pretty good bet, you can call me al> (You can call me Bruce.) Hussein had used the stuff on the Kurdish population. That we know for fact. So, indeed he had WMDs. He was also working pon nuclear capability. That too is fact. He had a cyclotron way the hell out in the desert, and unless he was doing blood separation, the likelyhood is he was using it to do isotope separation. However, Hussein is gone now as are whatever WMDs might have been there. So the question remains: When will the US leave?

15 May 05 - 02:05 PM (#1485487)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

Oh, yeah. I have been meaning to ask: Does anyone know about how many nuclear weapons the US still has in its arsenal? To the nearest hundred would be OK. Thank you.

15 May 05 - 02:53 PM (#1485511)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

The poison gas had passed its "use by" date. All of Saddam's chemical weapons were too old to do much damage to anyone, and they had been accounted for and put under seal by the UN inspections teams.

15 May 05 - 07:53 PM (#1485695)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Dear Guest Al, Google it and you will find many sources of information on the subject. Here is one to save you the trouble of looking. http://www.2la.org/syria/iraq-wmd.php

15 May 05 - 08:07 PM (#1485700)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Dave, that's exactly the same kind of "intelligence" (from expatriates with an axe to grind) that got the US and Britain on that wild goose chase for WMD in Iraq. Many members of the real intelligence community (not the "Office of Special Plans" from which the Bush administration got their "intelligence") know that you need to take what the ex-pats have to say with quite a large grain of salt.

15 May 05 - 08:15 PM (#1485703)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Very true CarolC, but coupled with the fact that at the same time this was being released by the Dutch, Israeli media were also stating the same thing by other sources. I think it is difficult to believe anything put out in the media, but one has to remain objective and view the possibility of this being true. If Saddam had nothing to hide, why was he so elusive and belligerant with the UN inspectors?

Yours, Aye. Dave

15 May 05 - 08:20 PM (#1485706)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST

Someone knocks on your door and says " We are going to search your house for a three legged giraffe, then blow the s**t out of the neighbourhood." Wouldn't you be beligerent?

15 May 05 - 08:27 PM (#1485709)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

If the someone who knocks on my door has the superior firepower of the USA or UN then I would hand over the three legged giraffe in the basement; or make bloody sure they got access to every room in my house.

On a personal note Guest, very few people who knock on my door have superior firepower; and very few who would be inclined to get beligerant with me when I opened the door. *BFG* ;-)

15 May 05 - 10:11 PM (#1485757)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

I tend to trust the people who were assigned to make those assesments, and who have established that there were no usable WMD. Like I said before... those chemicals were too old to be of much danger to anyone.

15 May 05 - 10:43 PM (#1485768)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

CarolC let me tell you an old story about experts who had to take war seriously. Italians decided to surrender peacefully and not support the Nazis after the allies invaded. There were thousands of Italians who owned military firearms that never surrendered them. The USA and Britain held an amnesty to recover privately held military firearms. Thousands of old shotguns,bolt action rifles and revolvers were handed in to the "Expert weapons collectors"   while many thousands of sleek, modern semi automatics and machine guns were greased up and hidden away. They were never found.

Yours, Aye. Dave

15 May 05 - 11:08 PM (#1485779)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Except that in this case, Dave, the aggressor nation is the United States of America.

15 May 05 - 11:10 PM (#1485781)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Plus, we know where he got the chemicals. He bought them from us.

15 May 05 - 11:33 PM (#1485794)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

CarolC, My point was that sometimes Experts find what they are supposed to find, and make their assesments from flawed information. As for purchasing chemicals, it would be too simplistict to say that the USA is/was the only source of chemicals. Far more dangerous substances can be purchased from mercenary suppliers worldwide, and we know Iraqs former leader had no scruples in using illegal weapons. Quite frankly the military surplus store formerly known as the Soviet Union scares the hell out of me even today.

15 May 05 - 11:59 PM (#1485808)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

It scares me too--but then so does the USA.

16 May 05 - 12:48 AM (#1485824)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Maybe, Dave. But the US sold them to him so he could use them (as our proxy) to kill people the US wanted killed, on behalf of the US. And therein lies the difference.

16 May 05 - 03:09 AM (#1485849)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Ebbie

"while many thousands of sleek, modern semi automatics and machine guns were greased up and hidden away. They were never found." Dave AM

But you know they were there, right? How?

16 May 05 - 08:49 AM (#1485975)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Ebbie, Look at the IRA, in 500 years the British could not disarm them, why? (a much smaller population and landmass than Iraq) You could also look into US history, something tells me it was almost similar in 1776. :) The British had the same trouble in Afghanistan

The Italian example I used was from personal knowledge, related to the experiences of some of the officers involved in the collection of these weapons during WW2. You might find some documented evidence of what I say, but I do not have any source to direct you too.

CarolC, I am not arguing with you, what you are saying is not the issue. The fact remains Saddams supply was not limited to those chemicals. Let me give you a reference to a modern day arms smuggling problem to illustrate how easy it is to obtain weapons.
http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsJuly2001/newsbeat1.htm

16 May 05 - 12:38 PM (#1486061)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: mg

They don't need the weapons per se. All they need is the money to buy them with or fanatics who will somehow concoct them, steal them, liberate them etc. mg

16 May 05 - 12:55 PM (#1486067)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

And the point I'm making, Dave, is that the US didn't regard Saddam as a "bad guy" as long as he was killing the people we told him to. And even when he invaded Quwait, he thought he was doing it with our blessing. We set him up as a straw man so we could use him to do our dirty work and then knock him down when we had enough dirt on him to "justify" invading his country, appropriating its natural resources, and using it as our strategic military base in the Middle East.

One of the members of the Bush administration was quoted as saying "we are an empire... we make reality... people will be studying us and our methods".

We don't need to study their methods in retrospect. We can observe them right now, as they are happening. The patterns are more than obvious.

16 May 05 - 01:24 PM (#1486089)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Peace

Sorry, folks. I don't mean to be a bigger pain in the arse than I usually am, but does anyone know about how many nuclear weapons remain in the US arsenal?

16 May 05 - 01:27 PM (#1486090)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Oops. Correction... *Kuwait*.

16 May 05 - 01:39 PM (#1486099)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr

dave.. you actually believe in the wmds? and that bush was fed bad intelligence?..
I would have thought that Wolfowitz's Vanity Fair interview would have made that clear..
wolfowitz ... 'for bureaucratic and other reasons we finally settled on the threat of wmds as a justification for invading Iraq..'

Paul O'Neill secretary of the treasury, said Bush wanted to go after Iraq as soon as he came into office.

Richard Clarke, the day after 9/11, Bush said '9/11 - Saddam Hussein find me a link'

I dont believe that Bush is just a useful idiot for the neocons, he isnt intellectually engaging, however he is politically astute, and along with the evil genius Rove (who has a record of winning elections in any way possible) they all make a team.
..
for a good long term analysis, I would recommend Gwynne Dyers FUTURE TENSE, he correctly predicted that it would turn into a quagmire for the US.. (You may not be aware of it, but Rove had planned for George BUsh to start his re-election campaign with an appearance in Baghdad.
in the spring of 04, boy was that ever optimistic).

16 May 05 - 01:53 PM (#1486106)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

I think that the west has always played off different leaders of these countries for years. The very borders of these countries were set up by the western powers and they made bad choices.
We cannot blame Bush et al for all this trouble, much of it was inherited. Now we are reaping the whirlwind so to speak. My only concern is that the battle being joined, we have to win it. Restoring decent living standards in Iraq will stabilize some of the situation I just don't see it happening soon. Bush has become a legend in his own mind, and that is unfortunate fact. Lets hope sober minds and decent people of the world gain more control of international politics in the near future. I won't be holding my breath while waiting thought ;-)

16 May 05 - 02:55 PM (#1486149)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

I don't blame Bush at all. He's just a puppet.

16 May 05 - 02:59 PM (#1486153)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: CarolC

Oops... forgot this bit: I don't know the answer to your question, brucie, but the people in charge here are creating a new class of nuclear weapon that they intend to use in conventional war situations as "bunker busters", etc. So I would say that our nuclear arsenal is getting bigger rather than smaller.

16 May 05 - 05:06 PM (#1486206)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST

That's not true Carol, but I'm not going to go 'nuclear' in this thread. You should do some research before you write up your assumptions.

16 May 05 - 05:31 PM (#1486213)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,CarolC

Which points, specifically are you disagreeing with, GUEST, 16 May 05 - 05:06 PM?

16 May 05 - 05:46 PM (#1486220)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,petr

its no secret the US is working on mini-nukes, to be used as bunker busters etc, if thats what GUEST is trying to deny..

but to all those that claim the war will bring democracy to the Iraqi people, how do you feel about the latest news from Uzbekistan.
5000 people demonstrate, 500 die at protest after Uzbekistans military opens fire at a demonstration last week.
Remember that Islam Karimov (president for life) is buddies with George W. Bush, because Uzbekistan is one of the allies in the war on terror
since providing an airbase in 2001. Karimov also received 500$million US in aid (10 times the amount he received in 1998)

16 May 05 - 06:21 PM (#1486233)
Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Conditions GREAT- the Damning Truth
From: GUEST,CarolC

Here's some background on the development and production of the "mini-nukes"...

http://www.brook.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/lasg.htm

http://www.nukestrat.com/us/afn/B61-11.htm

And various members of the Bush administration have been very vocal about advocating for the use of these weapons in a first strike pre-emptive capacity.