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11 May 05 - 11:35 PM (#1482998) Subject: Rise Up Singing Book II From: GaryD A couple years ago I started a thread about a grand publication "Rise Up Singing", produced by Pete Seeger & friends at Sing Out!.. It has lyrics, origins, chords, etc for hundreds of songs.. They were talking then about Book II, but were having turmoil getting permission from scores of artists who sang versions of the songs.. Did they ever get a 2nd book printed? Any help would be appreciated.. I've been away from mudcat for a very long time..it's good to be back.. I have a personal page, too, if you'd like to respond there.. Keep on the Sunny Side!..... Gary |
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11 May 05 - 11:56 PM (#1483004) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: open mike you can check singout.org that magazine publishes R.U.S. I subscribe to it and I am sure I would have heard if there was a RUS 2. Sing Out! Magazine |
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12 May 05 - 02:13 AM (#1483047) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer Welcome back, Gary! It's been a while since we've heard anything from Sing Out! about the new book. Last we heard, they were still working on it. The Rise Up Singing page at Sing Out! says that the 15th Anniversary edition of Rise Up Singing came out in fall, 2004, "completely retypeset to make it easier to read, with corrections and track icons to match the Teaching CDs." It's $17.95 if you order online. I've seen the new book - it's the same size and same number of pages, but the typeface is much easier to read. I haven't seen the larger "Leader's Edition" ($24.95). That one may have type big enough for a guitarist to read while playing. That would be nice. But as for Volume II - no word. I participated in the committee that selected the songs, so I'd sure like to see it published. -Joe Offer- |
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12 May 05 - 02:48 AM (#1483056) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: biglappy Didn't Peter and Annie Blood have something to do with R.U.S.? Somehow I didn't remember Pete Seeger being so involved. |
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12 May 05 - 03:59 AM (#1483078) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer No Pete Seeger involvement that I know of. the book was edited by Peter Blood and Annie Patterson Blood. There was an earlier book, Winds of the People, in very much the same format. I understand Winds was not done with copyright permissions, so it got into trouble. Winds is 161 pages, RUS is 281. -Joe Offer- |
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19 May 05 - 11:12 PM (#1488798) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: GaryD Good to hear from you guys again..epecially you, Joe.. yah, sure, that is a good book.. I'm going to check out that other book you mentioned, too.....where can I check out Winds, and as for the Anniversary Edition of RUS, does it have any new or different songs than the original?.... I kind of like the convenient size for carrying around, and the spiral binding keeps the pages easy to keep flat... Take care you all.. meanwhile, what can you tell me about Ed Trickett, Ann Mayo Muir & Gordon Bok? I have been frequenting Folk Legacy and I love their music, individually and collectively... |
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19 May 05 - 11:50 PM (#1488812) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ebbie Ah ha! I can answer part of that. Ed Trickett was at the Getaway last year and did a workshop. Good man. |
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20 May 05 - 12:26 AM (#1488828) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer Hi, Gary - no new songs in the anniversary edition of Rise Up Singing - just typesetting that's easier to read. Bok and Trickett are still performing (not together), but I think Ann Mayo Muir is retired and living in Europe. I thought she was in Scotland, but this page says she's in France. Ed Trickett performs only occasionally - I think he's teaching school. As Ebbie said, he was an invited guest at the annual Getaway of the Folklore Society of Greater Washington last year, and it was a pleasure to hear him. Gordon Bok is the only one of the trio who is performing regularly. You can get more information about Gordon at http://www.gordonbok.com/. -Joe Offer- |
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20 May 05 - 03:47 AM (#1488912) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: open mike i often wondered if Christina Muir from http://www.hotsouptrio.com/ was any relation to Ann Mayo Muir? |
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20 May 05 - 04:04 AM (#1488921) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer Christina is Ann's daughter. -Joe Offer- |
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20 May 05 - 09:44 PM (#1489695) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: yrlancslad As A folk singer of some 50 years standing, singing all over the world in pursuit of my day job-if I was ever tempted to burn a book it would be Rise Up Singing. A second one would be too much! |
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20 May 05 - 10:48 PM (#1489719) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Q (Frank Staplin) Joe is correct. "Rise Up Singing, Words, chords and sources to 1200 songs," 2004, 1992, 1988, ed. Peter Blood and Anne Patterson. Often listed as ed. by Pete Seeger, who wrote the introduction. The large print ed. is $19.77 at Amazon. 9.5 x 11.8 inches. My standard is 7 x 10 inches, so little advantage? Two issues of collected songs, which are scarce and rarely found. |
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20 May 05 - 11:36 PM (#1489769) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: GUEST,Fiona Just curious, why would you burn it? |
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21 May 05 - 12:56 AM (#1489800) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Barry Finn Forgive my father I'm about speak blasphemy. Are we talking about the folkies bible, the 1st testament? I wouldn't actually burn the book but it would collect an awful lot of dust before I'd use it, there are far better reliable & easliy available sources. I was asked to stop singing a song & was told that the words I was singing was not the same as RUS & to top it off was told I was singing it in the wrong key & could you sing it the right way like in the book so we all could sing along. I would definitely not recommend it as a reliable source. I don't throw all the blame on RUS but they share it with those that use it as the end all to beat all. Maybe RUS could've included a disclaimer. Something like, this not the folksingers gospel, don't take it as a proper source, expect there'll be errors & "do not burn this book even if you're freezing to death". I got so pissed to see & hear others talk about otherwise once decent singing sessions going downhill to find a level that would be a common denominator that I wrote the song below. It may well be I was a bit to harsh at the time, I hardly hear about the bible anymore. Barry Rise Up Screaming (tune: Jack In The Green) A pub session or a party is a very strange thing They're all out of fashion no more do they sing For they read from a book or copy a tape They imitate sounds no mortal should make There's no sound in the kitchen, no sound in the hall There's a murderous screech that plays off the walls Where is the music, where are the songs In the mouths of monsters where no sound belongs Dead pan they look as they sing in your face They'll spit out the words and the tunes they'll disgrace A song will be beat o'r and over to death And in a round robin they'll resurrect it again No more will be heard a version that's lost Or a variant that's rare or two songs that were crossed The borrowing or sharing of a tune or a song Will be according to the Bible all else will be wrong And now for the future, it's bleak for the song No young mortal will dare to carry it on They'll be none around who without books can sing Or swap without tapes or rise up singing |
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21 May 05 - 02:11 AM (#1489822) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer I put a plain brown wrapper on my Blue Book whenever I'm around Barry. He's really a nice guy, but that Blue Book makes him livid. With the brown wrapper, Barry thinks I'm reading Playboy, and that's OK with him. I DO sing out of the Blue Book, but I have had people who get nervous when I want to do one that isn't in the book. And they want to sing all the verses of sea chanteys, all together. They don't trust this call-and-response singing.... -Joe Offer- |
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21 May 05 - 06:27 AM (#1489912) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Peter T. Every good thing can be abused (even Mudcat). One reason why RUS is so widespread is that it is amazingly good in its selection from a number of pools of folk and neo-pop music of a certain era. Any book that contains John Riley, Pollution, and Up on the Roof in the same book is doing something right. As a vade mecum it is terrific. There are parts of it I hate -- like the Men section -- and it is inaccurate here and there, but all it takes is a piece of paper and some glue and you can fix that. My only real complaint is that they should have put some blank pages in at the end so you can add your own extras -- after I pasted over the Men section with other stuff, there wasnt much room left. yours, Peter T. |
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21 May 05 - 08:12 AM (#1489945) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies RUS is a fine book, with a lot of good songs. However it should be recognized that it is in fact not a folk hymnbook, should be used as one of many sources, and should always be left AT HOME. It is basically a snapshot, with no pretense to ultimate truth in either tune or words--and even if it were more than that, the folk process can change either or both---and that is absolutely fine. I think all what those who actually like to sing are saying is "Spare us from 'Let's turn to page 34 and sing the second one from the bottom"-----when there is no guarantee that anybody in the group has an inkling of either the tune or the words. Another hazard of RUS in a mixed group-- (that is, some people who actually have learned some songs, and some people who only show up at the "sing" with RUS in hand, and have made no effort whatsoever to learn any)-- is that if a song led by one of the first group is by some dreadful chance in "THE BOOK", the latter group have an endearing habit of pointing out that the leader who does not use the book has sung it "wrong". Yet another phenomenon I have noted in RUS "sings" is the compulsion to plow through the last 7 verses of a song, stumbling through the last 5--since after all the leader singing from "THE BOOK" has never himself or herself seen those last verses. I have unlimited empathy for somebody singing without THE BOOK who forgets words--but none for the leader singing from THE BOOK who stumbles over the words. It's even better to lead a song with a piece of paper in your hand--even as a talisman, that works--(and glancing at it from time to time if you have to, but obviously the goal should be being able to sing with no crutch)---than to sing from THE BOOK. I'm sorry if I'm being too subtle. |
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21 May 05 - 08:33 AM (#1489955) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies There are so many wonderful songs, both in and out of THE BOOK--a far better approach than using THE BOOK at a sing is just to pick songs with good choruses. Then the leader just teaches the chorus--and he or she sings the verses by him- or herself, with the group coming in on the chorus. Also: regarding Anne Mayo Muir--I just saw her at a party recently at the Cooks' (in the US). She sounds as wonderful as ever, and is also writing really great songs, one of which she was generous enough to give to me and my wife. . She's also a multi-talented instrumentalist. If you ever get a chance to see her--even without the others of the trio, both of whom are also just great as solo performers--do it. |
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21 May 05 - 03:39 PM (#1490184) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer I think part of the controversy is the type of singing involved. Our song circle in Sacramento is oriented toward group singing - ordinarily, everybody sings every song. If you're going to sing as a group, you need some sort of standard source so that everybody's singing the same thing. You do need to make an effort to keep that sort of group from getting stale or getting slavishly tied to the "Blue Book," but that's possible. We have a few people who bring photocopied lyrics for songs that aren't in the book, and I usually try to lead songs that you don't need a book for. But I'd say eighty percent of our singing is from "the book." Several of us in the Sacramento Song Circle have sung with the Sacramento Labor Chorus, so we're likely to sing more "activist" songs than you'll hear in the folk music clubs in San Francisco and DC. You'll also hear more Broadway songs - because we have a great time hamming it up on Broadway songs. We also get carried away singing "girl group" songs like "Soldier Boy," with the guys singing falsetto. I'll admit that the musical quality of our song circle doesn't match what I've experienced in San Francisco and DC, and it's a disappointment that some of the "better" musicians who have been with us tend to lose interest in our group. Sometime-Mudcatters DADGBE and Mark Roffe come to our sessions only occasionally. Frankly, they're too good for us, although they're always very gracious about fitting in and trying not to show how good they are. Their occasional visits tend to bring up the quality of our singing, and I'm always glad when they come. We try to be egalitarian in our song circle, and we don't have a leader; but I guess I have to admit that I'm the dominant force in the group - the "Alpha Male," if you will. Legend has it that I know all the songs in the Blue Book. We take turns choosing songs, but I'm usually the one who starts the singing. I let accomplished singers start their own songs and give a moment or two for everybody to start the song he or she has chosen - but it usually ends up that I start the song. I cut back on the volume of my own singing once the song gets going, so I don't dominate or "lead" the singing if I can help it. I've been to song circles all over the U.S, several in the UK, and even a couple in Ireland. Most of them are more challenging than what you'll see at our Sacramento Song Circle - but at most of them, the only singers are accomplished musicians. If there are nonsingers present, they're there as polite observers, and they rarely get a chance to sing. The music is wonderful in sessions like these - but it rarely serves to draw in those people who tend to think they can't sing. I love to attend really good singing sessions - but I think there's room for sessions that include and invite nonsingers. I've also found in some of those "better" sessions that there are people who are quite obvious in showing that they don't like my style of singing and that I'm not really worthy to sing in their presence - they try to lead me to their view of what's correct by trying to overpowering me with their voice or their guitar, even when it's my turn to sing and I've only sung one song for every three they've sung. I don't think I'm much of a solo singer. I'm OK, but I much prefer to sing with a group. I've led singing all my life, since the time when I led campfire singing when I was a camp counselor in college. I've learned to get a song going, and then to sing under the group to support it and give the singers confidence. I do the same thing in church. I can sing louder than the rest of the congregation combined, but I try to sing in a way that my voice can't be distinguished from the singing of the rest of the people. So, anyhow, before you condemn Rise Up Singing sessions, think again. This is a different kind of singing from what you're used to. It seeks to involve everybody, not just the people who are good at singing. Community singing sessions like this can be very bad, but they don't have to be. We've had sessions in Sacramento that were downright wonderful, and even the worst of our sessions are usually pretty good. -Joe Offer- |
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21 May 05 - 05:41 PM (#1490251) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Peter T. Whatever everyone else says, Joe, you will always be an Alpha Male in my book! (Of course, I have only seen you in action at the Swan circle, which is in a league of its own). yours, Peter T. |
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22 May 05 - 09:48 PM (#1490885) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: yrlancslad Ron Davies says it all for me so I won't repeat it here. I don't mind listening to "bad" or beginner singers singing songs I personally think are trash, thats part of the folk club tradition, but if a song's worth singing its worth making the effort to learn the words and having done that and lived with the song awhile maybe you can put some feeling into it which in my book can make up for a lot of "bad" singing. BTW went to a couple of Sac. song circles some years ago-too cultish by half for me! |
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22 May 05 - 10:46 PM (#1490930) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies It's even fine to use Rise Up Singing at a sing-- by memorizing exactly the words for a song, as given in RUS, and singing that version by heart. THE BOOK itself is left at home. When you are singing a song from memory and you are the leader, your version by definition is the right one. |
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23 May 05 - 12:19 AM (#1490985) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer Yes, but what do you do for community singing, for people who want to sing together without a leader or who want to try out new songs as a group? -Joe Offer- |
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23 May 05 - 01:11 AM (#1491003) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Stilly River Sage Excellent thread! The Seattle Song Circle folks dismembered and ritually shredded a copy of RUS at the potluck/song circle we did after my father died, as they do for various members. Others here have eloquently said it all. Leave it at home. Learn the song, through whatever means, before trying to sing it in public. It's so much easier on everyone. SRS |
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23 May 05 - 01:24 AM (#1491008) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: mg For community singing..maybe the old purple hectographed stuff..the old Mitch miller standards maybe..the old American/Canadian whatever songs..the songs they remember some or most of...it basically boils down to do what you want as a group or community..it is not up to any of us...but know that you will probably drive out the best singers in inverse proportion to the amount you use that book. You could pass out song sheets the week before and run through the tune a couple of tiems and say next week we are going to sing the lambing to the wool so see how many verses you can memorize..and do have someone lead it..this consensus stuff is only good when you are getting paid by the hour. mg |
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24 May 05 - 01:48 AM (#1491711) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: biglappy I love the principal authors of the RUS project like family as they are dear family friends. I'm not into changing the words of folk songs to reflect a more equal role for women or new standards for referring to other races. If I don't like a song for political reasons I usually just quit singing it. RUS has some wording changes that disturb me. I don't doubt the right of anyone to change all the words of a folksong that they wish, but I also respect my own preference for authentic folk sources and my consequent preference for the language those sources used. |
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24 May 05 - 07:08 AM (#1491808) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Jeri I don't much like people using the book in folk sings. When I wanted to be a singer, I looked at the ones that were, and thought, "I wanna be able to do that!" Of course, it was just a dream, since I'd never be able to sing in front of people. The thing was, part of 'that' I wanted to do was to learn a song until it belonged to me, until it was in my head and my heart and traveled wherever I went, inside me. You don't get that reading lyrics from a book. What you get from a book is a bunch of folks being able to sing a song together that they've maybe never heard. It works just fine in church and nobody complains. Folks singing that way don't mind leaving the song behind when they close the book. If that's what they want, there's nothing wrong with it. The problem is that people may not understand that folk singing sessions and circles are different, how they're different and why. No - not understanding is something we all do simply because we don't know everything. What's obnoxious is when people don't understand and don't realize they're missing something, know they are but don't try to figure it out or expect the world (and your session) to work the way THEY want it to. |
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24 May 05 - 05:51 PM (#1492311) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: radriano I don't care for the RUS book simply because it is misused so much. I have a notorious memory and I always carry a loose-leaf binder of songs with me. I may glance at the words while I'm singing but if I sing the song in public I've already learned the melody. The only way to deal with the "blue book" for me is to avoid those sessions that use it exclusively. I don't get the need, as in some sessions, to sing along on the verses as well as the chorus. And a call and response work song like a shanty only works when sung properly. Would you insist on singing along with the soloist in a choir? And the RUS book is not the only thing out there either. Some time ago I participated in what was called a "traditional Irish song session." Everyone who came to the session had these four little books titled "Folk Songs Popular in Ireland." The group went around in a circle. The first singer said, "I'll sing Four Green Fields. It's on page 40 of the third book." All turned to page 40 and everyone sang on every verse and every chorus. And on it went around the circle. I glanced at one of the books' table of contents and noticed a song I knew. Unfortunately the verses were all different! When my turn came around I asked if the group would be willing to learn a song that was not in the books. Reluctantly they agreed but I ultimately felt that I should just not frequent that session. Everyone there liked what they were doing and I just did not fit in. All songbooks are just collections of certain versions of songs. If you restrict singing to the contents of one book you miss out on different variations. And it's ludicrous to insist on using the same key that's in a book if you can't sing well in that key. People have different voice ranges, you know. |
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24 May 05 - 09:35 PM (#1492437) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: GUEST,Dave'sWife at Work Wow. What a hornet's nest! So if you don't own a copy of RUS.. should you risk buying one? I don't own one and always figured I ought to if I want to brush up on things before going and trying find some group to hang with in Southern California? I probably won't bother. I started making my own songbook plus some reference Audio Tape mixes of the songs I really like but I got distracted after the workbook exceeded 100 pages. I never did get around to finsihing those audio tapes. |
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24 May 05 - 09:52 PM (#1492446) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: WFDU - Ron Olesko I hope some of these stories about RUS are exceptions, not the rule. Do we have the same problem with people who use the Sacred Harp? Sounds like that is a very rigid set of rules concerning group singing, but I really don't hear people complaining about it. Personally, I applaud Rise Up Singing because it does get people to rise up in song. I think if you are going to teach someone how to make a cake, you need to give them instructions to follow. Once they become comfortable they will experiment with the ingredients, try a new recipe and maybe even come up with some of their own. The same can be said for singing. RUS is a great way to get people back to singing. If you find yourself in a session that uses the book exclusively, perhaps you are in the wrong session - or maybe you just need to step back and think about why people are using it. |
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24 May 05 - 10:49 PM (#1492473) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies No, no problem with Sacred Harp, for many reasons, none of which apply in the RUS case. 1) There is a long tradition of using the Sacred Harp book exclusively--I mean over decades long, if not over a century. (Some groups may have their own traditions, also long-standing (e.g.--sing from Christian Harmony after the potluck supper, also sometimes a tradition, depending on the group.) 2) Sacred Harp has a specific sound, which cannot be attained unless only the notes in the book are sung. .For my money, it's a good, gutsy unpolished sound,--( perhaps because of its pentatonic aspects, and due to the fact that it is truly "folk music",sung by untrained voices, and usually full-throttle all the way)-- which is hypnotic for the singer (I actually also like to listen to it, particularly live.) The words too, are very evocative of 19th century America--you can easily sense the Hobbesian view a lot of poor people probably had--and most of the really ecstatically upbeat songs are about death. There are very few musical experiences as unearthly as being in the middle of a big Sacred Harp group belting out Babylon Is Fallen, Exit, or another aggressive song. The slower ones are great too. 3) RUS has absolutely no claim to ultimate truth in either words or music. In fact it irks a lot of serious singers when anybody seems to claim that mantle for RUS. 4) Sacred Harp is full of songs which otherwise would never be heard. Some are actual classical-style compositions, with all the parts written out, (particularly the Billings entries.) Only a few of the songs in Sacred Harp, like Wondrous Love, and Rose of Sharon are famous. RUS has a fair number of songs which can be heard on oldies stations, in church, around campfires etc. As I said earlier, RUS is a fine book, full of (mostly) good songs, and is a good source, among many others. But it is not a hymnbook, nor remotely in the league of Sacred Harp in musical value. I'm sure others can come up with other reasons why there is absolutely no comparison. Actually, to be blunt, any attempt to even mention RUS and Sacred Harp in the same breath is "fightin' words" (especially down south, I bet--but I agree.) |
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25 May 05 - 03:36 AM (#1492606) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: GUEST,Dave'sWife without her cookie I don't see any comparison between the two myself except in the minds of people who want to bash RUS as an erzatz 'bible' of Folk. Sacred Harp is such a different thing altogether. This does, however, remind me a little bit of the arguments I have gotten from Pan-Celts who yell at me that 'Clannad does it the right way' about a particular song they assume is Irish when in fact, the song in question is sometimes American such as 'Two Sisters." For this subset of listener or singer, there are five or six 'sacred' groups or musicans whose renditions of an acknowledged group of songs have become canonised (in the actual sense of the word). I don't think it's any given book or body of work that's the problem - just the dogmatic way that some folks cling to them. I personally object to the term 'Celtic' since it doesn't mean what people think it does and derives from a derogatory Greek word (Keltoi) used to describe a wide variety of peoples. It's adoption in the latter half of the 20th centuray as a generic term for Gaelic peoples annoys me. I could probably go off on the word they way people go off on RUS! I'll stop now before I'm even tempted. Time to go look at Meg The Wonder-Pup's photos and feel the claming effect of her sweet widdle gaze! WOOF! Meg should run for Office. |
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25 May 05 - 09:23 AM (#1492796) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: WFDU - Ron Olesko The point I was trying to make is that I have yet to meet people that refer to Rise Up Singing as "the bible" or the ultimate authority on any song. Like any reference book, that is all it is. It is one of the more "commercial" books available and it's popularity is due to the fact that it mixes in many popular songs that people are familiar with along with some more esoteric songs. It is a great introduction and tool for people that are trying to promote group singing. Ron Davies - you took my mention of Sacred Harp completely out of context. Every point you make about Sacred Harp is valid and I agree with you. The comparision is that there are reasons why Sacred Harp is used and there are reasons why Rise Up Singing is used, both in different situations of course. There is a purpose to Rise Up Singing, and aside from the comments made above, I have not witnessed anyone treating RUS as such a dogmatic source book. It is merely a tool, a very good one, but just one of many. |
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25 May 05 - 11:58 AM (#1492910) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: dick greenhaus IMO RUS set out to be a campfire songbook for the '70s. It's succeeded admirably. For those who would rather not participate in a '70s campfire singalong, though, groups that rely on RUS are deadly. It's not really focused on folk music, and represents a really limited and unreliable authority on the subject. |
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27 May 05 - 05:23 PM (#1494585) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: GUEST,David Ingerson Joe has a good point about community singing. Rise Up Singing is probably the best resource for that sort of song circle. However, the song circles in Portland (Oregon) have been mostly folk and traditional and have suffered from an influx of blue book singers. Our weekly song circle was essentially taken over by them--that is, we let the culture of our Monday night session drift toward the blue book and did nothing to change that drift. In fact, the better singers--and by that I mean the singers who are most deeply invested in their songs(some of whom have a hard time carrying a tune)--basically abandoned the Monday night sessions. I don't know if it's even happening now, but my impression was that they had no leader and really needed one. Joe? A little over a year ago it was suggested I write an article for our local newsletter about the negative aspects and dangers of an over-dependence on Rise Up Singing. Here it is, for what it's worth. As I point out, I want to start a dialogue about the topic. It's become an important part of our organizational culture and needs to be addressed. Since the article came out things have improved. We don't allow a song from the blue book now unless someone knows it well enough to lead it all the way through. SOME THOUGHT ABOUT RISE UP SINGING by David Ingerson davidingerson9@yahoo.com Rise Up Singing is used so frequently at song circles that we refer to it as The Blue Book, The Hymnal, or simply The Book. Yet a number of singers fear it has changed the culture of our song circles for the worse. Here are some of my thoughts about the issue, presented as a starting point for a community discussion. It seems to me that the more we depend on Rise Up Singing, or any single book, for that matter, the more we lose the qualities that make song circles the invaluable experiences we have come to expect. We lose value in three areas: musical, communal, and personal. MUSICAL LOSSES We lose the joy of singing well. Good feelings spontaneously arise within many of us as we sing. This upwelling of joy is, for me, one of the important pleasures in life. It is enhanced when we are familiar enough with the song to sing with confidence, verve, even abandon. In this way the song flows naturally from the center of our beings--an experience that can touch us deeply. When we have to struggle with a song, however, the joy leaks away and leaves frustration. All too often this is what happens when we sing from Rise Up Singing. A song is requested but no one knows it well enough to lead the singing. The group stumbles through the song anyway, with frequent mis-scanned lines and usually at a funereal tempo. There is a palpable deadening of the spirit in a song circle when this happens several times during an evening. When we depend on Rise Up Singing we also lose a large amount of the variety that enlivens folk singing. The many differences among song versions and the variety of performance styles is the very soul of folk singing. Yet if we depend on Rise Up Singing, we have only one version of each song, a pitiable musical poverty. In addition, a book--any book--can only hint at the possible styles for singing a song. A book can only point to performers and recordings as sources for those stylistic varieties. If we don't go beyond The Book, we are left with white bread singing: bleached, doughy, bland, and pre-cut. A number of singers have also complained that singing from the Blue Book becomes repetitious and eventually boring. We lose the musical energy and momentum that electrifies the best of song circles: confidence falters, tempos slow, ownership of the songs slips away, and tentativeness sets in. As a result, feelings droop, the fires die down and we might as well be sitting at home in front of the TV. COMMUNAL LOSSES This loss of energy directly affects the feeling of community in the song circle. Helping create and partake of that energy binds us into a community. But people with their heads in a book, struggling through a song they don't know well, and singing tentatively, are less likely to feel bound together. This loss of communal energy has created a downward spiral at some song circles. As more and more songs are sung from the Rise Up Singing during an evening, it becomes more difficult to break away and sing something not in the book. I have seen "anti-Blue Book" singers pick a song from Rise Up Singing when the culture of a particular circle is dominated by The Book. We lose leadership. We lose the forward direction provided by individuals who know a song, who have made it their own, who can lead it or sing it with confidence. We lose the regional flavors of local songs and songs composed by members of our community, which are absent from the book. Instead, head-in-the-blue-book breeds a conformity, a timidity, a backing away from taking risks. This brings us to the personal losses we experience from over-dependence on Rise Up Singing. PERSONAL LOSSES The level of risk-taking in the group seems to have dropped. Relying on the crutch of one wide-ranging source offers a level of comfort that, in my opinion, too many people seem to be accepting. Fewer songs are coming from other books or recordings. Fewer singers are learning new songs. After all, why go to all the trouble of transcribing or looking up the words to a new (for you) song and then all the work of memorizing the words and making the song yours if you can just turn to page 275 and sing the same old favorite once again? We lose ownership of songs. When you learn a song well enough to lead it or sing it solo, you have put your own stamp on it. It becomes yours. There is a different feel to a song sung out of a book than to one owned by the singer. The former is usually tentative and bland; the latter more vibrant and distinctive. So we lose the new blood of singers learning new songs. We lose the stimulation of singers venturing into different styles of folk song. We lose leadership. We lose ownership. WHAT I AM NOT SAYING Let me be clear about what I am not saying. I am not against Rise Up Singing or using it at song circles. It is a valuable resource for words, chords, discography, and sometimes a little background. I am against depending on it alone. I am not against including people who use the only Blue Book. I welcome anyone who wants to sing. I am against using the Blue Book when no one knows a requested song well enough to lead it. I am not against people coming to song circle not knowing a song to sing. Nor am I against people requesting a song from Rise Up Singing. It has a huge number of wonderful songs. Let's just make sure someone can lead the requested song. If not, let's pick a different song that can be sung with gusto (and maybe someone can learn the other requested song!). In the end we are involved in an oral activity. We sometimes need a written crutch. The more we depend on that crutch, however, the more crippled that oral activity seem to become. Do you disagree? Good. Let's talk about it at a song circle. Have I left something out or gone off in a wrong direction? Write your ideas and send them to Local Lore. We need to bring this issue out in the open and make our culture more explicit. |
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27 May 05 - 05:30 PM (#1494593) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: radriano Very well stated, David! This is pretty much how I feel about "Rise Up Singing" - it's not a bad book but sometimes the way it is used diminishes a song session. |
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27 May 05 - 07:13 PM (#1494665) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: yrlancslad Must say I'm surprized and pleased to find so many people with similar feelings to my own about that blasted book, and who have put them up here in much clearer fashion than I could have. Just a couple of comments and then I'm done: Joe asks "what do you do for community singing....... well you form a choir of course, choose a song and make the effort to learn the words and tune. Community building, like team building, succeeds when members enjoy success in overcoming problems together ie. succeed in singing a song well -together, in tune and without stumbling over the words or music. All Blue Book song circles are, are SLOPPY choirs, without the energy, cohesion or motivation to make the effort to do something well and the results frequently far from being community creating or building,are quite depressing for everyone involved David ends his article by saying that he is not against the use of the book at song circles nor people who only sing songs from the book, or people who don't have a song to sing making a request from it, and with these comments I only partially agree.I have nothing against people singing songs from the book at song circles but LEARN THE SONG AND LEAVE THE DAMN BOOK AT HOME! If people want to diminish their options by only singing songs from the book I feel sad at their self impoverishment but have nothing against it as long as they LEARN THE SONG AND LEAVE THE DAMN BOOK AT HOME!As for people who arrive without a song to sing, we used to call 'em audience until they did turn up with a song they could stagger through.If they feel they don't ever want to inflict their musical "talent" on us then it's fine by me for them to make a request for a song provided THEY KNOW THE SONG AND HAVE LEFT THE DAMN BOOK AT HOME and that some idiot who isn't sure of the tune and only knows half the words doesn't try to fulfill that request! Having had my last word on the subject let me just say that with all the great written sources there are around right now for every type of folk song imaginable I feel strongly that a Blue Book II would be a serious waste of our woodland resources. |
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27 May 05 - 10:00 PM (#1494750) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies As I think the vast majority of us have said several times, we have no objection to RUS as one of many sources for songs. But quite a few of us, including me, believe it should always be left at home. Main reason: it's just too tempting for somebody who has made no effort whatsoever to learn a song to "call one". If there were no RUS at "sings", everybody would have a powerful incentive to actually learn songs----and experience the joy that comes of doing so. I'm sure people in the Sacramento song circle and other groups that are now addicted to RUS are every bit as intelligent and have every bit as much passion for music as folkies do elsewhere--all it takes is a bit of incentive---making learning songs a priority. And the more you do it, the easier it becomes. You don't even have to necessarily start with" real folk"--I bet the Sacramento group already knows quite a few songs by heart--just by dint of repetition--if they would only just try to wean themselves off THE BOOK. I can't recall exactly who was there--but one of best times at last year's Getaway, as far as I'm concerned-- (admittedly one of quite a few good sessions)-- was when a bunch of us just stood around in the dining hall and sang Everly Brothers, doo-wop, "You Belong To Me" (led by Elizabeth LaPrelle), etc., for an hour or so. We did it all by institutional memory--you might be surprised at the variety of songs folkies are hard-wired to sing. It would also have the added benefit of attracting back the better singers--who are both bored and frustrated by a RUS session. Otherwise, "open sings" are likely to become " closed sings"--with people inviting to their houses only those who are guaranteed not to use THE BOOK. This is definitely an undesirable development----and it's already happening. |
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28 May 05 - 03:39 PM (#1495104) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: mg watch it happen in the music camps too....the people who prefer not to use the book, and forgive me for saying so but they tend to be the best singers in my opinion, sneak out when the books come out. Then they have to have these horrid flourescent lights shining at full blast in the middle of the night so that heaven forbid someone is unable to read the .....book....humbug...if someone needs light that strong let them bring a flashlight, or pass a flashlight around but turn off the damn lights at least and have kinder light that is more conducive to singing....candles, lamps, solar candles, firelight...whatever...mg |
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28 May 05 - 06:33 PM (#1495187) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer I think it's not so much a matter of the book. I think it's more about the problems of accommodating both accomplished singers and duffers in the same session. Or maybe it's about people who think they're accomplished singers, and their prejudices against those they think of as "lesser mortals" because they don't have lyrics memorized. Maybe, it's an issue of tolerance, and an issue of inclusion versus exclusion. I don't know where I fit in. Most non-singers seem to think I'm a very good singer, and many people I encounter at camps like the Getaway and San Francisco's Camp Harmony probably think I'm a duffer. I know lots of songs from Rise Up Singing - and I sing them pretty well, hardly needing to look at the book. I also know lots of songs that aren't in the blue book, although I suppose I have to admit that I know songs mostly from recordings rather than the purer traditional forms of songs. I do feel more confident if I have lyrics in front of me, in case I need them. When I attend something like the Getaway, I have a folder of large-print lyrics of songs I want to sing - but there are times I'd like to sing a song I know "from the book" that fits a situation. It shouldn't matter if I use a book or a cheatsheet or my memory - the only thing that should matter is the song, and my singing the best I can when it's my turn to sing. The only way I'm going to learn to sing better is by singing - and for most of us, we best learn to sing when there's somebody to listen to us and to respond to our singing. Some people just don't remember lyrics, and I'm one of them. I admire people who can remember hundreds of songs, but I don't think I should be excluded from the singing because I don't. If I'm stumbling through a song I don't know, that's another matter. I think the same thing should apply to people who sing from memory - some people refuse to use a book or a "cheatsheet," but they can't get through a single song without stumbling on the lyrics. It's really frustrating to listen to an interesting song, and then not be able to hear the end of it because the singer has forgotten the lyrics. I went to a Gordon Bok concert in San Francisco, and he blew the lyrics on at least half of the songs he tried to sing. I really wouldn't have minded it he had a music stand with lyrics close at hand if he needed help, but it sure was disappointing to have him stop dead in the middle of so many songs. I think that if we truly believe in folksinging, then we have to truly believe in allowing the folk to sing, no matter how they choose to do it. -Joe Offer- |
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28 May 05 - 07:55 PM (#1495232) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer I had to step off my soapbox to correct a History exam, but I ain't done talkin'. I will admit to really screwing up a song once by using Rise Up Singing. I was in a dimly-lit tavern in Whitby, and it was my turn to sing. I decided to sing Stephen Foster's "Hard Times Come Again No More," a song I know well and have sung many times. But the formatting for that song in Rise Up Singing is a little strange, and the dim lights made it hard to read - so I screwed the song up royally. I made sure to add a "cheatsheet" to my song folder for that song, so I can sing it with no problem next time. I actually need to look at only the first word or two for each verse - but it has to be in context, with all of the words there in case I need them. So, that's one time where I admit that my use of the Blue Book was a problem. To be fair, I guess I should give an example of intolerance on the part of people who rely on the Blue Book. When it's my turn, I try to teach or lead a song without printed lyrics. A number of people bring photocopied songs to the Sacramento Song Circle. Usually, these "away from the book" experiences are pretty good, and add variety to our singing. However, there are times when a significant number of people just don't join in if the song isn't in the book, and their lack of participation can kill a song - expecially if they decide that the song is an opportunity for conversation. Then there's my attempt to lead the sea chantey "Rio Grande" this month. The Sacramento people tend to want to have all the people sing all the verses of sea chanteys, and they don't quite understand that this sort of song works best in a call-and-response format. As a result, we don't sing many chanteys - but I chose to sing "Rio Grande" from the book this month, and insisted on call-and-response format. Well, I started singing, and about the third vesrse, somebody stopped me and demanded to know why I was singing "RYE-o," when obviously it should be pronounced "REE-o." So, I decided I need to invite Chanteyranger and Radriano and Dick Holdstock to Sacramento to conduct a remedial chantey-singing session. But while I'm on my soapbox, I wanna talk about Guys With Guitars, and Women Who Sing Loud To Correct Others. The worst Guys With Guitars are the Singer-Songsmiths, because they think their songs are so much more innovative than familiar songs, so they one to sing one of their songs for every song that the entire rest of the group sings. And the Guys With Guitars can always jump in quicker than us a cappella folks, because they can strum a chord any old time and we a cappella singers often have to have a moment of quiet so we can hear the beginning of the melody in our heads. And then when we do fit a song in, the Guys With Guitars and the Women Who Sing Loud To Correct Others all do their best to take the song away from the us, to places where the we may not want to go. Because, of course, the Guys With Guitars and the Women Who Sing Loud To Correct Others are so much better than us meeker sorts. Now, I'm sure that many of you know that I, Joe Offer, am no shrinking violet - but I have to say that I am sometimes intimidated by the Guys With Guitars and the Women Who Sing Loud To Correct Others and the People Who Condemn My Use of a Songbook or Cheatsheet. Makes it damn hard to sing a song sometimes, with all those intolerant jerks in the way. -Joe Offer- |
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28 May 05 - 09:11 PM (#1495278) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: mg Well, there probably are visual people and auditory people when it comes to music. And it truly does not seem to matter to some people how the music sounds. I know I am more an auditory because I really don't know what the words are half the time..even songs i have heard hundreds of times...to me the sound that is produced is what is the most important...pretty songs sung by pretty voices is my favorite. I know i am shallow but that is the truth of the matter. and how prepared do you have to be to hum along wi th the tune, or sing a simple chorus or chime in with the few words that you do know? We don't always have to find the lowest common demoninator.... sometimes not always, it's good to sit back and forget about consensus, forget about democratic ideals, forget about the message of the songs and the community spirit and let the true leaders lead and the rest of us follow or get out of the way.... mg |
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28 May 05 - 10:19 PM (#1495315) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies I'm pretty sure all we intolerant jerks have an amazing amount of understanding for people who forget words. Why, we've been known to do it ourselves. Even a "cheat sheet" is not the end of the world. RUS is also not the end of the world--but, as they say, you can see it from there. Your choice--if you want to separate serious singers from people who want a folk "hymn sing", that's what's happening. |
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28 May 05 - 10:21 PM (#1495318) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: WFDU - Ron Olesko My only concern, and I do not mean any disrespect to anyone who has posted their thoughts, is that these "rules" seem to be a roadblock to anyone who is trying to join in on the singing. Several of these posts would discourage anyone who has never joined in a group sing and had some interest. I doubt it was the intent, but the impression given with some of these posts is that unless you know all 180 verses of an obscure ballad - stay home! I love to hear "pretty voices" joined in song as much as anyone, but I really get a bigger kick out of the person who joined for the first time and nervously leads a group in a song that they feel somewhat comfortable with. I realize many of you have been singing in song circles since before Barbara Allen's lover began looking under the weather, but what do you do to encourage new voices to join in? I can't see a lick, and I can only hum along (softly) so as I don't interfere, but I think it is important to perpetuate the tradition. If Rise Up Singing becomes an introduction, is it really that bad - bad enough to cause others to walk out in disgust????? |
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28 May 05 - 10:23 PM (#1495320) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies It's a question of priorities--either learning songs is a priority or it's not. |
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28 May 05 - 10:27 PM (#1495322) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies 180 verses of Barbara Allen is not the norm in my area--(sorry if it is in yours)-more like chorus songs or humorous songs. A long ballad has to be awfully well done to hold a group's interest---so they're not often done. |
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28 May 05 - 10:48 PM (#1495329) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Peter T. It is a wonder everyone has not just walked away from this, given the ridiculous bad behaviour and absurd officiousness going on. I am certainly fortunate to have known nothing but nice people in the folk universe, but never thought it was particularly exceptional. yours, Peter T. |
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28 May 05 - 11:04 PM (#1495331) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies At the Getaway, for instance, everybody seems to have a great time, and makes lots of great music----but RUS is not seen. |
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28 May 05 - 11:23 PM (#1495336) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Stilly River Sage Pronouncements about "absurd officiousness" and exaggerated examples of 180-verse songs may bring an unappreciated conversation to a standstill, but they do nothing to truly illustrate a need for the book at public performances. And it doesn't show an understanding of why people object to it. If you're going to perform in public, then be prepared, and understand that there are those who don't appreciate watching the top of someone's head as they read the words from the page of a book when they're supposedly "performing." Eye contact and a spontaneous performance are desirable. To perform, you need to know what you're doing, which means the words need to be yours, they're internally lodged and understood, and they spring to life when you perform. If you're not confident about leading the song, then take the book and sing along in the background. This observation of mine is based upon the understanding that any kind of public performance, spoken or sung, is going to work best if you already know what you want to sing or say. SRS |
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28 May 05 - 11:26 PM (#1495338) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: mg No not walk away in disgust. At a camp, they will find a secret spot and sing what they know. Look around and see who is missing...if it's more than three or four they have gone away....In song circles, people just won't come back. I have been to some that I wouldn't go back to for the music, that's for sure...maybe for the company...and I am not really a good leader of songs anyway so I am one who sings the choruses etc...and I have never discouraged anyone in person from using the books but I will refuse to be told to use it by them... or sing from the xeroxes they love to pass out. mg |
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28 May 05 - 11:36 PM (#1495346) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies Come to the Getaway, Mary--you'll find none of that nonsense. |
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29 May 05 - 11:51 AM (#1495501) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: dick greenhaus The warm emotional experioence of everyone singing together--no matter what they sing or how well they sing is--is one thing. Music is another. I sort of wish singing groups/circles/singarounds/hoots would adopt a labeling system (like the movies) to provide some advance warning as to what to expect. It's not that one approach is better than another; it's just that some of us are disappointed when we attend a new group and find that it's rated RUS. |
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29 May 05 - 12:26 PM (#1495510) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Big Mick I will generally just stay away from these circles. I don't begrudge folks the ability to sing, I just don't belong in a circle that requires one to use a particular version or lyric. As those that know me can tell you, I have my own way of singing based on what I hear in the song, or the message I want expressed. Usually that means that folks that are locked in to a particular version have a hard time. Let me tell you about group singing from another perspective, though. I was the subject of an interview, and one of the questions had to do with my favorite moments. I told them what it was like to sit in front of a very savvy and talented bunch of folkies, doing my version of a song. I described how they listened carefully, figured out what I was doing (which was off the "beaten path" a bit), came up with a perfect harmony for the chorus, and chimed in at exactly right time. I will never forget the feeling while those wonderful voices came back at me, interpreting the song with me just as I intended. This occurred at the FSGW Getaway, and has happened several times. I can hear the wonderful voices as I type this. I will go to my grave remembering this very powerful moment. I think my friend Dick Greenhaus has the right of it. RUS is fine as long recognizes it for what it is. I have never felt the need to buy it, as I have better sources. BTW, if I were going to recommend a couple of song compilations to someone, it would probably be the collected reprints of Sing Out. I have both copies, and use them as a starting point for many songs. All the best, Mick |
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29 May 05 - 11:11 PM (#1495845) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Stewart I used to be a regular member of the Seattle Song Circle (hardly missed a session), but now have more-or-less given up on it. I have my own thing about using RUS - a fine collection of songs to sing in groups, but not to be used in group singing. You can see my thoughts about that HERE. People would come to Song Circle without the faintest idea of what they wanted to sing (and certainly not prepared) and open the book to plow through a song they didn't even know. Or they would sing the same song for the umpteenth time always from the book (you would think they might know it after singing it that many times). Instead I became interested in playing Irish fiddle music and joined a session that meets at roughly the same time. Now there's something about playing in an Irish session that might relate to a song circle. When I first started to play in sessions I didn't know many tunes. I played on the ones I knew and listened on the others. On rare occassion a newcomer would bring a music stand with sheet music, but that was a pain to set up and didn't usually last long (besides it's not a cool thing to do at a session). I slowly learned more tunes at home, but also by just listening during the session. Often I am amazed to all of a sudden be playing a tune that I never really sat down to learn - it just was absorbed unconsciously and then I knew it. And you can't really play Irish music from the notes anyway since it's an oral tradition and the notes are only an approximation of the way it should sound. There's no disgrace sitting out a tune you don't know - much better than ruining it for the others by trying to play something you don't know - even the best players don't know all the tunes. But if you use that time to listen intently, pretty soon you learn the tune. So I think a lot of what we do at Irish sessions (or any tune sessions) could apply to singing sessions. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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30 May 05 - 12:40 AM (#1495874) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer Well, I guess I have to admit that I've been a bit disappointed at those few workshops at San Francisco's 6-day Camp Harmony when people get too dependent on the "blue book." I usually lead a group singing or camp songs workshop at Harmony, and encourage the use of the "blue book" for that one session. For a community sing with good singers, it can work amazingly well. And usually, a number of people come up and thank me because they've felt lost at other workshops, and haven't had the opportunity to sing. But in other workshops, it can get to be a drag when too many songs are ones I know already from the "blue book." So, I guess I'd agree that if you're going to use the blue book, it should be used in moderation. I go to workshops to learn new songs, and it can be a drag if all the songs are songs I know, in versions I've heard a thousand times. -Joe Offer- |
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30 May 05 - 01:24 AM (#1495882) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: mg I think you ahve a good plan...have some sessions where it is welcomed...mg |
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30 May 05 - 03:46 AM (#1495910) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: GUEST,David Ingerson Someone above suggested that the "better" singers will go off and form their own group. That has already happened here in Portland. The "Pub Singers" have been meeting twice a month and do not allow any books at all. That's a great idea. The unfortunate thing is that they are exclusive: participation is by invitation only. (After waiting several years for an invitation, I found they have some exciting, memorable sessions--but I still feel uncomfortable about their exclusivity.) Of course, they have every right to determine their own membership. In effect, every group determines their own membership--some are more open than others, some are more explicit about their content and "rules" than others. At this point, I think that one of the answers to this "problem" is to make the culture of each group explicit and clear to all. For instance, the second Wednesday group is a teaching-learning group: they share songs and sometimes work on songs together. The second Saturday group is open to all, but if you want a song from RUS, then someone has to know it well enough to lead it all the way through. Just make the content and format clear. After all, you don't want someone singing Broadway songs at a Sacred harp session. But that wouldn't happen because the name of the group clarifies what happens there. People just need to clarify what is acceptable or expected at each session. David PS It just struck me that maybe there is a fundamental difference between people who just like to sing and those who treat singing as an art. I'm not intending to be judgmental here, just trying to draw some distinctions. Does that distinction make sense to any of you? |
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30 May 05 - 09:50 AM (#1496051) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: GUEST,Joe_F David Ingerson says: > Just make the content and format clear. After all, you don't want someone singing Broadway songs at a Sacred harp session. Of course. But it would also be gratifying if there were venues whose purpose was not restricted to singing one or the other or even to singing per se -- where a Broadway song, or a party game, would provide the fastidious with an opportunity to go the kitchen, refresh their drinks, and hobnob about the foolishness of this world. > It just struck me that maybe there is a fundamental difference between people who just like to sing and those who treat singing as an art. I'm not intending to be judgmental here, just trying to draw some distinctions. Does that distinction make sense to any of you? Indeed it does, and I am even willing to be judgmental in moderation. Without wishing to call the police, I judge that there is far too much art in recent popular culture, to the extent that it has become a pest. --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: We have struggled to beggar our neighbor in one little lighted corner of a great dark store of wealth and grace. :|| |
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30 May 05 - 11:51 AM (#1496099) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies At music parties I go to or have, we're likely to sing absolutely anything, from sea chanteys or country to doo-wop or a bit of Broadway. The one common factor is that RUS is never seen. We don't treat it as an art form--we just sing because we like to, because we feel like singing a particular song--sometimes we stumble on a theme and stay with it for a while, just for kicks. We make up harmonies all the time, we welcome (mostly acoustic) instruments. Sometimes the party might be ostensibly country music--but that may include Hawaiian, songs from the 20s and before, country rock, doo-wop etc., or something somebody has written. And it doesn't bother us in the least if somebody forgets words. And it's great fun. But no RUS. |
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03 Jun 05 - 06:41 PM (#1499680) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: GUEST,David Ingerson Hey Ron, That's the way our song circles used to be--quite a bit of variety, lots of made-up harmonies, and big enthusiasm. Then they drifted toward more use of the blue book, less variety, less enthusiasm. How did you folks manage to keep your group from "going blue book?" I would love to get back what we had. Every once in a while we have a great song circle like we used to, but it happens less and less often. What's your secret? David |
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04 Jun 05 - 12:31 AM (#1499901) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: mg I'd say the only hope is to start a song circle where blue books can only be used by the leader, and then reluctantly and dim the lights. If you have a totally defunct song circle, then maybe resurrect that one. I wouldn't suggest trying to change one that has already gone to the blue books back to bookless...just start fresh...be polite and have the other song circle to direct the book lovers too..oh but my photography class meets that night... mg |
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04 Jun 05 - 12:33 AM (#1499902) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: mg and might i suggest coming to Camp Alexandra in Vancouver B.c. if you can make it up from Portland...if you haven't been, it is an ear-opener..really great singing. I am going to try to make it but logistics are difficult...very very good singing..but even there I have seen blue books imposed...when some of the finest singers onthe planet were singing...mg |
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12 Dec 12 - 03:04 AM (#3450827) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer Well, finally it looks like we will have a new book - in a couple of years. Peter Blood and Annie Patterson gave up on getting Sing Out! Magazine to publish a second Rise Up Singing, and they've signed a contract with Hal Leonard. Here's an e-mail from Peter Blood, dated 7 Dec 2012 (posted with permission):
Many of you have been asking us for years: when is the new songbook coming out? Well, we finally have some good news: we just signed a contract with Hal Leonard (which already distributes RUS to music stores) to do a new book with 1200 new songs for those who use & love Rise Up Singing! We hope all of you will help us revisit the list we put together nearly 15 (OMG) years ago for another book. We attach a list of "criteria" to keep in mind in sending in suggestions. In other news: 1. We are in the process of building a new website. It will be regularly updated with information about the new book as well as serve as a common ground space for people committed to grassroots participatory song in the tradition of Pete Seeger & Rise Up Singing. We are looking for a web developer to help us with this major project. Stay tuned. We'll let you know when it launches. 2. We are offering a holiday sale this year on our current website http://www.quakersong.org/ - free shipping on all orders & 20% off all orders of 5 or more CDs between now and January 6th. Help us clear out some inventory and raise money to help support us in the next two years of intense work bringing out the new book! If you can let the singalong folk in your area know about this we would appreciate it. Please let us know if you need any changes to the notice for your singalong group at http://www.quakersong.org/singalongs/. Thanks for all you are doing to keep people singing!! In song, Annie & Peter And an attachment: Announcing a new songbook by Annie Patterson & Peter Blood (the creators of Rise Up Singing) Rise Up Singing has helped create a singing movement around the world far beyond what we dreamed was possible when we first created it in 1988. Over the years it has become a beloved and valued resource for hundreds of thousands of music lovers and has helped people in many walks of life realize that their voices matter. We are proud of the journey that this grassroots songbook has taken over the years. Its success wouldn't have been possible without the help of so many friends who have either been there from the beginning or who have joined in along the way. Today, people sing together on a regular basis using our songbook as a resource in each other's homes & places of worship, libraries & community centers around the world. We feel grateful & humbled that our songbook has played a significant role in what Pete Seeger has called a quiet singing revolution in this new century. Over the years songbook fans have often asked us: "When are you going to make another songbook with 1200 new songs for Rise Up Singing lovers?" The answer is…drum role, please…"NOW!" It's official. We just signed a contract with Hal Leonard Music and the work on the new book has begun. You can help us make this new songbook just as great as the original book. We want you to help us identify your favorite songs that are not in RUS. When we created RUS our years of songleading experience gave us a clear concept of the kinds of songs that would and wouldn't work well in the book. This time, we have a similar vision but will include more genres, different themes, and especially seek to include songs that are familiar and loved by young people today. If you want to send us your suggestions, please pay close attention to the following important guidelines and, above all, have fun! Much love & thanks ~ Annie & Peter What are the songs that: • You always thought should have been in RUS? ("How did that one get left out?!") • Are among the greatest easily singable RUS-type songs written in the past 30 years? • Are often requested or you wish you could lead when you get together to sing with others? • Are right "on the lips" of you & your friends? • You've been dying to get words & chords for to sing with family & friends? If you want to send us a list, PLEASE include along with each song the following: 1) A way we can try out the song easily: • An email link to a Youtube video for the song (preferably one of good audio quality & by the song's composer or at least a well-known performer) • An emailed mp3 file • Mailing us a disc burned from your i-tune and CD collections, along with list • CDs that include one or more song recommendations You can also cite a Sing Out! issue in which a song appears or copy the song from a leadsheet or songbook, but this is not the best method as it's harder to get a quick feel for the song from a leadsheet than an audio recording. 2) Background information you have about the song, (e.g. composer(s), artists who have recorded it, etc.) 3) Any evidence for including the song you can offer, such as its being widely "covered" by other artists, often sung in your circle of friends, requested at parties / singalongs, "known by all my friends", etc. Selection Criteria. We're looking for songs that: 1. Have easy-to-remember tunes (where you can sing the song successfully with just the lyrics & chords). Some factors that contribute to this "sing-ability" are: • Consistent musical structure (e.g. the melody repeats in a pattern of verses & choruses) • Steady, clearly defined rhythm • Relatively simple "catchy" melody • Easy and catchy chorus that has the same structure and lyrics each time Good examples are: This Land Is Your Land, With a Little Help from My Friends, If I Had a Hammer, O What a Beautiful Morning, Michael Row the Boat Ashore, Over the Rainbow. 2. Are not too difficult for your average "lay" singer & guitar player to pull off • Relatively easy chords • Not too wide a vocal range (e.g. more than an about 10 steps or an octave & a half) 3. Lend themselves well to group singing – e,g, songs that are • Used by songleaders that like to lead their audiences in songs • Not primarily "performance" (as opposed to participatory) type songs • Ones where audiences often join in when the song is performed • Not too lengthy (Turning Towards the Morning & I Wanna Be an Engineer are very long) 4. Are widely known - e.g. songs that • Were written or recorded by well-known musicians • Are frequently "covered" by other musicians (at performances, on CDs) • Appear in many songbooks (e.g. in collections of best-known songs of that particular genre) • Are often sung by people you know Once again: We are very interested in songs from genres that were weakly represented in RUS – Examples include well-known, singable standards from country music, blues, bluegrass, jazz, "rock & roll", drinking songs, bawdy songs, and contemporary and African-American gospel. And we're especially looking for songs that are well-known and loved by young people under 30! Send email submissions to: annie@quakersong.org or peter@quakersong.org (Please include "song suggestions " in the subject line.) If you want to mail us burn discs or other "hard" items, send them to: Annie Patterson & Peter Blood 42 Jenks Street Amherst MA 01002 |
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12 Dec 12 - 08:47 PM (#3451183) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: ChanteyLass I look forward to buying it. |
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12 Dec 12 - 09:58 PM (#3451196) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Bill D I don't see a request for accurate lyrics. That was a major problem with book 1... glaring errors. |
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13 Dec 12 - 12:03 AM (#3451222) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer Right, Bill - but now they can get the lyrics from Mudcat ;-) |
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13 Dec 12 - 11:50 AM (#3451398) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Stringsinger Glad that the typeface is larger. We were calling the book "rise up squinting". If at all possible, it's important to memorize the words of the song that you are doing especially in a group setting to that your nose isn't in a book but aware of the people around you. There should be a book on how to memorize song lyrics. |
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13 Dec 12 - 01:23 PM (#3451438) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Leadfingers My MAIN concern with people using ANY song book , wether RUS or their own note book is the way SOME people hold the book in front of them , so they are singing AT the bloody book and not to the audience . And I still believe you cant do a song justice unless you KNOW the song WELL !! |
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13 Dec 12 - 01:27 PM (#3451441) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies Ah, but memorizing lyrics requires some work. And it means making that a priority. Much easier, in this labor-saving age, to just open the book and sing the 2nd from the bottom on page 34. Never mind that actually memorizing a song gives a sense of accomplishment--and another friend for life. Much more important to save time and effort. |
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13 Dec 12 - 03:47 PM (#3451485) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Stewart One of my first song books was Song Fest, by Dick and Beth Best, published by the Intercollegiate Outing Club Assoc. (I.O.C.A.) in 1954. The preface to the original collection had some interesting words of wisdom: "Because the fires of enthusiasm kindled at a rousing songfest, roaring most heartily… can't be artificially preserved for I.O.C.A. posterity, this song book is inevitably a mere woodpile. The motley crew who haphazardly, and with occasional splurge of energy, have thrown the pile together, haven't bothered about a few knots and flaws in the grain. They've gone out of their way to select good rough logs, which haven't been cut up, dried, and neatly sorted like those you find on any standard woodpile. They've tossed the big timbers in next to the small ones, but have tried to stack them up for easy reference. You'll find some of them won't burn very easily unless you corral an expert hand to touch them off, but plenty of room has been left on the pile for wood of you own choosing. In brief, the woodpilers herewith toss you the torch – and the tip that, not withstanding a random shot of smoke-in-the-eyes, which you may get in the early stages, no fire will burn more brightly than the one you concoct yourself." The following P.S. was added: "A reward of one left-hand dungaree patch, guaranteed not to rip, run, rust, tear, split, melt, break, etc. is hereby offered for the pelt of the first bohunk caught surreptiously using this book at a songfest." Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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13 Dec 12 - 04:29 PM (#3451503) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer Well, I have to admit that when I was a Cubmaster, I fought hard against the Den Mothers who wanted printed lyrics sheets for campfires - and I never gave in and allowed them - but t campfires, I was there to teach the kids what I wanted them to sing, and teaching and learning was part of the process. On the other hand, I've been a choir singer since fifth grade, so I use hymnals a lot - even though I rarely look at them. Still, I have to sing a song twenty times before I even begin to be able to sing it by memory, and I'm often expected to sing new pieces I've sung fewer than five times. We use Rise Up Singing at the Sacramento Song Circle, and I'm often the only one not looking at the book. I know those songs well, but I keep the book on the floor in front of me so I can look to see the first word of a verse, and the like. My opinion is, that the people whose use of a songbook is annoying, are people that are not very good singers. It doesn't have anything to do with whether they use a book or not - it's just that inexperienced singers tend to need books as "crutches." So...I think what the book-bashers are saying is that people who aren't at the bashers' level of accomplishment, shouldn't sing. I don't buy it. It's a damn snooty attitude. I think everybody should be encouraged to sing - and it they need to sing from a book, so be it. -Joe- |
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13 Dec 12 - 06:56 PM (#3451544) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Leadfingers No Argument with any of you !! Ron , Stewart and Joe . No problem with a new song needing a reminder at all , but DONT hold the words between you and the Audience. |
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13 Dec 12 - 07:50 PM (#3451565) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies Joe, we've been over this before--even on this thread. Those of us who criticize the use of RUS in singarounds do not say users of books should not sing. That's a straw man. My gripe, for instance is only with RUS as a crutch--only that particular book. I would say that any book the singer has actually put together personally of his or her own songs--or just a piece of paper-- is just fine. The likelihood of somebody who has put such a book together knowing the song well enough to put it across convincingly is quite high. The likelihood of somebody---who has spent $14.95 or whatever RUS costs and brought RUS to the sing--knowing the song is hugely less. RUS just makes it too easy to never really learn a song. That's why it's a good resource, among many----and should be left at home. It's possible that you may even consider yourself a non-singer. That's selling yourself short. I've heard you sing songs--with no paper at all in front of you. It was great. For so many people it's just a matter of confidence. I can't speak for all, of course, but for me RUS is far, far worse than any other aid at a session. It is the most likely aid of all; there is likely to be more than one of that book, and it just makes it too bloody easy to avoid ever learning a song--gee, is there an echo here? Not only that but with the number of verses often printed for a song, the rest of us must listen while the "leader" stumbles through every blessed one in the book--even if said "leader" has never seen some of the verses before. That is the opposite of a satisfying musical experience. Again, I can't speak for all but I have unlimited empathy for somebody who considers himself or herself to be a non-singer actually trying to get through a song without RUS--forgetting words, leaving out verses, radically changing the tune, etc. That person has made an effort. I have zero sympathy for anybody who uses RUS at a sing--that shows no effort whatsoever. And it seems crazy that everybody should insist on singing every word of every song--another excuse for using RUS, AKA the Blue Book of Death, at a sing.. i love to sing, but i'm completely fine with listening to somebody else sing verses, and just joining in the chorus. If there is no chorus, that puts a huge burden on the singer to keep the interest of the listeners--so in general I don't sing ballads--none without refrains. Also if you want a sense of collaborative music-making, a chorus or refrain can virtually always give that---you don't need to sing every word. I will even leave a sing if RUS is used--it's just that visceral. And I think i'm not alone. I in fact have left our local open sing for that reason--years ago. And not regretted it. I go to jams and music parties. Nobody would even consider bringing that book to such an event. I am a huge and hopeless music addict. There are far too many opportunities for great music-making--of any number of types of music-- to spend time in a RUS session. Only if there are great non-musical benefits to staying at a RUS session will I be there--and hoping the RUS portion of the program ends ASAP. Consider for instance how many times RUS was used in the Peace Cabin this year---i believe it was zero. If anybody wants "community sings" and requires that book, then fine. Such a sing is the opposite of a jam or music party. And those of us who feel that way will therefore go to the jams and parties--only. |
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13 Dec 12 - 07:54 PM (#3451569) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies "his or her own songs" i.e. songs he or she likes to sing. I actually hope the person has not personally written all the songs--unless perhaps it's Randy Newman or John Prine. But when either of these come to an open sing they are welcome to sing only their own songs. For some reason they don't usually seem to bring a book to sing from. |
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13 Dec 12 - 07:57 PM (#3451570) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies Hey i got lucky 77! 77 Sunset Strip---you'll see the highbrows and the hipsters....Now that was a great theme song. |
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13 Dec 12 - 08:55 PM (#3451584) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe Offer Well, Ron, maybe I find your attitude condescending because actually I think I'm a pretty darn good singer. This week I'm doing 11 Christmas carol gigs at nursing homes - all from memory - and the people love it. The songs I sing from memory are mostly camp songs, church songs, carols, and pop stuff. I sing gospel anywhere, because it's fun - but I don't sing the religious songs that mean something to me, when I'm outside a religious context. I don't think that's appropriate. And camp songs are fun, but one can't do a steady diet of camp songs. I like to try new songs - and I find I learn songs best by performing them. I'd rather not flub the words, so I keep a "cheat sheet" at hand - but I do know songs quite well before I perform them. Just not well enough to feel comfortable without a lyrics sheet. And yes, I know most of the songs in Rise Up Singing very well, and I like to sing them when it's appropriate. If I don't have a crib sheet, sometimes I just flip a finger and the condescending folks and sing out of the blue book. -Joe- |
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13 Dec 12 - 09:11 PM (#3451586) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies Joe-- "condescending"--I think you are being supersensitive. Nobody is trying to imply you can't sing. I think you're a fine singer and I'm glad you have self-confidence as a singer--that's what it's all about. Everybody gets nervous singing in front of a group. I sure do. No problem there. And using a "cheat sheet" is fine as far as I'm concerned--as I've noted more than once. But the Blue Book of Death at a sing is not OK. That's the topic here--and that's my only point. If all singers would keep RUS at home and not bring it to sings, all friction on this point would vanish. There'd be peace on earth--or something like that. IF |
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13 Dec 12 - 09:56 PM (#3451603) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: artbrooks As has been already said, this topic has been dragged around almost as many times as "what is folk music". IMHO, it depends a lot on what you choose to call a sing. Going around a large circle while each person does the song of his/her choice, while the others there - mostly also experienced (if not 'good') singers - sing along with the choruses or the whole song is wonderful...and I envy you people on the watery sides of the country who have that opportunity (this is why we try to get to the Getaway every couple of years). On the other hand, some places are lucky to be able to get eight or ten people together who want to sing, much less who know all the words or are able to carry a tune. This is the crowd that RUS was designed for - and 75% of those who attend the song-circle here would be mute without it. |
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13 Dec 12 - 10:32 PM (#3451613) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Janie What strikes me about these conversations and debates, including the current dialog between you, Ron and Joe, is how your different experiences have colored your reactions to people using RUS. I don't have a lot of experience with "sings" and "song circles." Most of my singing has been singing alone on the front porch, late at night. It kinda tickles me to read the dialog between the two of you. My experience of both of you is based solely on about 10 years of that remarkably musically intimate weekend of the Getaway. I experience both of you as supportive, inclusive and egalitarian, and experience both of you as delighting in the participatory experience. |
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14 Dec 12 - 12:13 AM (#3451649) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies Thanks, Janie. By the way I did certainly enjoy singing and playing with you at the Peace Cabin this year--and I still think your duet of several years ago on There'll Be No Church Tonight--can't remember your partner, though I can see her--- was a major highlight of that Getaway--especially since I'd never heard the song before and you guys did a delightful rendition. I do try to support all other music-makers as much as I can. I especially enjoy singing harmony or playing harmony--just being part of the ensemble. I love to try to help out anyone musically--as long as the person is not singing out of RUS. Making music as a group is endlessly satisfying--and it can easily be done without RUS. It's just that the use of the book in question has been extremely deleterious to many open sings and similar occasions. And I care too much about music to let that go. I suppose it's part of being a music addict. It's certainly true that Joe is also endlessly helpful and supportive in any number of ways. It's ironic that we seem to have this one little point of friction. I suppose it's possible he and I will have to agree to disagree. |
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14 Dec 12 - 12:47 AM (#3451658) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies I think it was Dani. |
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14 Dec 12 - 10:50 PM (#3452111) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: JohnB I agree with all the comments to a greater or lesser degree. I have ONE vain hope though, in these days of technology, I DO hope that they do not come out with the iphone version of RUS. I have seen too many doing that already. JohnB |
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14 Dec 12 - 10:58 PM (#3452113) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: mg What I have seen is not just people using iphones for lyrics, but actually using it as their turn..playing something from the iphone... Think all this through before it comes to your town. I have pretty much given up though. |
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14 Dec 12 - 11:40 PM (#3452133) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Ron Davies From i-phones? (makes sign to ward off Devil). Oh, c'mon. Yeah, I know--just one more labor-saving device. They could save even more labor by staying home and playing their i-phones to themselves. Then they'd have an appreciative audience. Looks like pretty much all "folk" singing may soon have to be by invitation only. As they say, not the end of the world---but you can see it from there. |
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15 Dec 12 - 03:14 AM (#3452157) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: mg I think there needs to be some at least suggestions for new people wanting to use the book in an establsihed group..this is futile because I think almost any established group in us and perhaps cn has been taken over.. But if you find a virgin group, ask what the preference is for the books. If you don't see books, except for the personal use of the singer, assume that they might not want to use this particular book. In fact, some (including me) passionately do not want to use it. The sound of the music that is produced can go from wonderful to deadly in a few sessions. Or in an evening. If it is a group that is set up with the intent of using this book, go for it. Enjoy it with enthusiasm. If you want to set up a group, do it however you like it. If you prefer the book, don't let people who prefer not the book talk you out of it. It is your group. The problem is people coming into established groups that have gone on for years and imposing the books. I mean bringing extra copies and standing there insisting you take one. If someone says no thank you, move on. Same with camps. They are about my only form of music these days. I do not want to drive 200 miles, or more likely, mooch a ride with David, and sit through hours of those books under glaring flourescent lights in an endless circle. If I and others leave the group, it is because we want to do something else. There should always be a default room for the book likers, who also tend to like the flourescent lights I have noticed. If you want to sing out of the book, stay in that room. If you want to join others, who are not using the books, join them but don't use the books. You do not have the moral high ground. I do not have the moral high ground by insisting on joining a quilting group that has been around for years and not quilting the way they have developed. I do not expect every baseball team to let me play at my level when they are at a different level. This never means no one gets to sing. There is lots of singing, choruses, sing along on songs oyou know, hum along. This is in the late night sessions at the camps...sometimes leaders emerge..let them..sing along but don't demand equal turns. That messes up the flow of the music. Taking turns messes up the flow. I am not talking about every song circle every places, I am talking about what I seek out in terms of music, and what others do as well. There should always be a default option of some nice room to sing with the books (Sunnycamp being the exception because there is only one building)...but don't impose them on people who don't like them. |
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15 Dec 12 - 11:43 AM (#3452311) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: dick greenhaus While I personally dislike people singing from books, that's not the main problem with the folks that use RUS. The "Blue Book" has somehow gained the status of being an authority as well as being a crutch. I've attended (once each)sings where book-wielding participants would angrily proclaim "you're singing it wrong!"; I've seen people who insisted on announcing the page number for songs like "I've been working on the railroad", and people, who, when asked what key they wanted an accompianist to play in, looked it up in the book. I've seen several good singing groups effectively ruined by overuse of RUS; I've never seen one that was improved by it. |
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15 Dec 12 - 02:44 PM (#3452374) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Genie Dick, I too get annoyed when people sing a song/line obviously wrong - when their common sense or familiarity with the song would tell them it was wrong - because they have their head buried in RUS (or a lyric sheet with a typo). And I've seen people in song circles bury their heads in books while singing the refrain of "What shall we do with a drunken sailor?" Oy! I do think, though, that sometimes song circles - especially singalongs - can be and have been enhanced by the group having access to lyrics for songs that are new to them (and don't have simple choruses) or that they sort of 'know' but only part of the lyrics. I do like group singing, especially when the group adds harmony, and sometimes the only way to bring that about, without sticking to the same old uber-familiar songs, is to have a book or lyric sheet available. I do wish, though, that in groups that use RUS (or another book), people would not react with hostility or chagrin if you point out a glaring error in the lyrics to a song (or to where RUS has changed the lyrics to make them more "politically correct"). I don't think the rule should be that the group has to sing the wrong lyrics or use wrong (or less interesting) chords just because that's what's printed in the book. |
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15 Dec 12 - 05:05 PM (#3452423) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: dick greenhaus Sandy Paton once told me that a RUS-wielding member of an audience once yelled (literally) that he was singing a song wrong---one that he had collected. |
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15 Dec 12 - 05:53 PM (#3452439) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Genie Bill D, I agree that for the new book - any book - the request should be for accurate lyrics (and chords). One problem is that lyrics often vary from one singer or recording to another. That's especially true of traditional or other old folk songs, but it's also true of songs covered by different singers or even for different recordings/performances of the same song by the person who wrote it. Then there's the frequent situation where the "official" lyrics printed in the CD liner notes or a songbook are different in places from what's sung on the recording. That said, some additional proofreading would be appreciated, as well as some actual research into the correct (or preferred or most common) lyrics and chords, rather than just relying on one's memory. I think Rise Up Singing is a very valuable reference tool, usually pretty reliable as to who wrote a song and when, etc., even if not always quite as reliable for lyrics & chords. I just don't think its design/formatting makes it very useful as a "hymnal," much less a lyrics & chords sheet. I think that groups that want to use RUS - or any other song book - might have a better group singing experience if participants were encouraged to pick out some of the more often requested songs from the book and learn those songs so they don't have to keep their heads buried in the books. |
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15 Dec 12 - 06:27 PM (#3452453) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: Joe_F A compromise reached by some groups that I sing with is that the leader (the person who calls the song) may use RUS or another crib (often, these days, electronic), and the rest should keep their heads up & sing as much as they know -- typically, no more than the chorus. That allows those who are getting on in years to avoid letting their forgetfulness disrupt the flow. If possible (usually it is not), sitting around a table makes it less conspicuous who is glancing at a text, and eases conviviality in other ways. I do not often use RUS these days, and I have not bought into any of the iThingies, but I have used my computer & copier to make specialized crib books for pub sings, filk sings, and general sings. |
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14 Dec 13 - 09:39 PM (#3584199) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Peter Blood and Annie Patterson have released the song list for their soon-to-come second volume of the Rise Up Singing songbook, Rise Again. The new book is tentatively scheduled for release by Hal Leonard Music in Spring 2015. Format will be the same as in Rise Up Singing but all songs are new. For me, it's a list of a lot of new songs to learn, since I sing with groups that use these songbooks. I try to get people to actually learn these songs, so they don't sing with their noses buried in books. Some of these songs, I'll never sing - but there are a lot of wonderful songs on the list, and I'm looking forward to the publication of this new songbook. Here's the song list: http://www.quakersong.org/ra_chap_songlist/index.php -Joe- |
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15 Dec 13 - 08:20 PM (#3584417) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe_F As is well known, the world has passed me by. Most of the songs on the list, I've never heard of. Very little overlap with the 800 or so I've so far put in my own Magical book. (The thing now requires a backpack. I am seriously thinking of moving to a tablet.) There are a few I am glad to see noticed. I am also glad to see a little more tolerance for naughtiness than in RUS. Still no "Battle Hymn of the Republic", tho! And no "St Louis Blues"! I suppose there is too much Bad Taste in them. |
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15 Dec 13 - 08:41 PM (#3584427) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: ChanteyLass I am so excited! I have waited for this for a long time and still won't hold my breath, but I'm glad the book has reached this stage, and I still can't wait to buy it! |
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19 Oct 14 - 05:08 AM (#3670415) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Well, the book is taking shape, and I signed up as a volunteer. It's hard work, but I'm really enjoying it. In the next several months, you'll see a lot of Mudcat threads on songs in the new book. Click here for more information on the new Rise Again Group Singing Songbook. -Joe- |
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19 Oct 14 - 06:30 AM (#3670434) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Deckman I noticed that this very good thread has been re-vitalized again ... after NINE YEARS! I find that very interesting. I re-read most every posting and I find that I have much the same feelings about "the book" that I've always had. It's a very fine refernece book, but it should be left home on the reference shelf and should not be brought to hoots. As so many catters, who are more eloquant than I, have said: the presence and reliance on the book has ruined many hoots. I'll cite just one example: In folk music, which really is oral history, the telling (singing) of the story is everything. From broadside ballads to current events, these stories must be told in all their accuracy and varients. When any one source, such as "the book" is brought to a song session, it seriously inhibits the free flow and exchange of these tales. I well remember a hoot I attended in Aberdeen, Washington (USA) in 1958. There were perhaps a dozen folksingers gathered before a roaring fire at the home of the late Richard Landberg. One singer started by singing "Danville Girl." This was follwed, by another singer, in the same key and without a break by "East Texas Red". This in turn was followed (again same key without a break) with yet another song of virtually the same melody and same basic theme. These songs continued for a full 25 minutes. When we had finally run out of songs that fit, we all were astounded with what we had just sung. It's moments like this that stick in my memory. Relying on "the book", or any book, defeats the purpose of folk music. Just leave the book at home, where it belongs. bob(deckman)nelson |
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26 Oct 14 - 03:25 AM (#3672194) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Genie "I have much the same feelings about "the book" that I've always had. It's a very fine refernece book, but it should be left home on the reference shelf and should not be brought to hoots." I'm with you, Bob. I often to keep my RUS in my gig bag, but mainly as a listing of possible songs to sing and/or as a reminder of the key or maybe the overall chord progression. It is really lousy as a book to sing from—and I do not think it was ever meant to be that kind of "songbook." That said, I do look forward to "Rise Again," because there are so many "standards" and "Ameriana" and folk songs that had to be omitted from RUS. Genie |
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26 Oct 14 - 07:02 PM (#3672301) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe_F If it were my book, it would be called "Fall Down Singing". |
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26 Oct 14 - 07:32 PM (#3672308) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer It's no accident this thread was dead for nine years, Bob (well, 7 years, 2005-2012). Editors Peter Blood and Annie Patterson submitted the list of songs for a new book to Sing Out! Magazine in 1997, and Sing Out! was supposed to produce a new book. But nothing happened. A couple of years ago, Peter and Annie signed a contract with Hal Leonard Music Publishing, and work on the book began again. Peter and Annie will tell you exactly what Genie said, "I do not think it (Rise Up Singing) was ever meant to be that kind of 'songbook.'" They've held workshops all over the U.S. over the last twenty-five years, trying to encourage people to learn the songs, and to sing with their noses out of the book. I've been thinking, though. The people who sing that way are in the process of learning the songs, and learning to sing together. They're not like many of us who have sung all our lives, who have a lots of songs in our heads that we can sing from memory. And they're exposing themselves to new songs that they haven't known. Should we deny them the chance to learn these songs and to learn to sing together, just because they're not "good enough" according to our standards? Give these people a break. Maybe they're not very good singers, but at least they're trying. I think I have some 500-700 songs in my head, but many of those are kids' songs or church songs that aren't suited for singing on every occasion. So, I'm glad to have Rise Up Singing. I know most of the songs in the book, for better or for worse, and I don't have to do more than glance at the page to sing most of them. I wanted to have input on the new songbook, and Peter Blood and Annie Patterson gave me free access. I'm a pretty good song researcher, and I intend to review every song in the book and add comments and corrections. So far, I've finished two chapters, Ballads and Old Songs and Blues. I've fully researched every one of the songs in those two chapters, and some of you have noticed some of the threads I have refreshed or started in the process. Peter and Annie are very receptive to the suggestions I've made, and they've consulted me on many matters. Next on my list is "British Invasion" songs. Last night, though, I was researching Hebrew songs written by Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach (1925-1994), a fascinating person. I found the information Peter and Annie needed, and I learned a lot in the process. As songbooks go, RUS is a pretty good songbook, and Peter and Annie have worked hard over the years to fix incorrect chords and lyrics that appeared in earlier editions. This time, we're hoping to make most of those corrections before the first edition appears. There are hard choices to make, though. Which version of See See Rider should be used, since there are so many versions that are so different from each other? I'm pushing for the one by Big Bill Broonzy, with a caveat added stating that there are other, very different versions from Ma Rainey, Leadbelly, Mississippi John Hurt, and Eric Burdon. I submitted a proposal for an instruction box titled "how to sing a ballad or old song," telling people that there are many versions of almost every old song, and no one is the "right" version. Peter and Annie liked my instructions box. I'm hoping that I will have time to ensure that every song in that book will be compared with the versions you have posted at Mudcat...and Mudcat and the Digital Tradition are already a major source for many, many of the lyrics in the new book. -Joe- Here's the instruction box I've submitted for inclusion in the songbook:
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26 Oct 14 - 10:33 PM (#3672318) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Deckman Joe ... Your imput is very important and your points are perfectlly takes. I should not have brought up the old and personal compaint about the use of the book in a way that the authors did not intend. I do believe that there was an unfortunate period in some of our song circles, when RUS first became the most common reference book that it somehow achieved "biblical importance." When that happened, and I witnessed it, a very large body of singers became turned off and felt shut out. I do thank you for your hard work and I'm sure your research will help greatly to make this new edition superb. CHEERS, bob(deckman)nelson |
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27 Oct 14 - 11:15 AM (#3672415) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Stewart "Should we deny them the chance to learn these songs and to learn to sing together, just because they're not "good enough" according to our standards? Give these people a break. Maybe they're not very good singers, but at least they're trying." The few times I've been to song circle recently affirms what I saw previously when I was more regular - people who don't make any effort to prepare for the session. When their turn comes they have no idea of what song they want to sing. They then choose a song that they don't know and everyone stumbles through with their heads in the book. Now, not everyone in the circle is like that, but when you come to a circle I think you are obliged to prepare by choosing a few songs (three would usually do for a session) and learn those songs well enough to lead them. You don't have to completely memorize them - an occasional glance at the words is okay. But to come to the circle without any preparation is not acceptable if you want to participate with the group. The introduction to the "old yellow songbook" Song Fest by Best & Best says it well: "Because the fires of enthusiasm kindled at a rousing songfest, roaring most heartily… can't be artificially preserved for I.O.C.A. posterity, this song book is inevitably a mere woodpile. The motley crew who haphazardly, and with occasional splurge of energy, have thrown the pile together, haven't bothered about a few knots and flaws in the grain. They've gone out of their way to select good rough logs, which haven't been cut up, dried, and neatly sorted like those you find on any standard woodpile. They've tossed the big timbers in next to the small ones, but have tried to stack them up for easy reference. You'll find some of them won't burn very easily unless you corral an expert hand to touch them off, but plenty of room has been left on the pile for wood of you own choosing. In brief, the woodpilers herewith toss you the torch – and the tip that, not withstanding a random shot of smoke-in-the-eyes, which you may get in the early stages, no fire will burn more brightly than the one you concoct yourself." The following P.S. was added: "A reward of one left-hand dungaree patch, guaranteed not to rip, run, rust, tear, split, melt, break, etc. is hereby offered for the pelt of the first bohunk caught surreptitiously using this book at a songfest." Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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27 Oct 14 - 08:44 PM (#3672521) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: GUEST,Stim Social singing, which is one the most wonderful ways of sharing that humankind ever came up with, is a custom that's almost disappeared. Most people don't know how to do it anymore. A lot of people still have that urge to raise their voices together, though. That's why they'll pick up the blue book, or any book they can find, and fumble through it and try to patch something together. And yes, it can be kind of abysmal. The thing is, if singers just throw up their hands and walk away, things will just be sad and pathetic. Music responds better to leadership than about anything else, and I don't see much reason why people who know how it's done shouldn't just stand up and do it. |
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27 Oct 14 - 09:31 PM (#3672526) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Genie Joe Offer: "Peter and Annie will tell you exactly what Genie said, "I do not think it (Rise Up Singing) was ever meant to be that kind of 'songbook.'" They've held workshops all over the U.S. over the last twenty-five years, trying to encourage people to learn the songs, and to sing with their noses out of the book. I've been thinking, though. The people who sing that way are in the process of learning the songs, and learning to sing together. ... Should we deny them the chance to learn these songs and to learn to sing together, just because they're not "good enough" according to our standards? Give these people a break. Maybe they're not very good singers, but at least they're trying. ... " I agree, in part. RUS can sometimes help people (not just novice singers) learn new songs. But over-reliance can actually impede committing a song to memory, and it often does. All too often I see people's head buried in "the book" while singing "Drunken Sailor" or "Michael, Row The Boat Ashore" or some other song that's so familiar or so simple (or both) that people who don't use the book in a sing-along would learn (or remember) it pretty soon if they weren't using the book as a crutch. Stim said, "Music responds better to leadership than about anything else, and I don't see much reason why people who know how it's done shouldn't just stand up and do it." I think this is a place where some group leadership could be very helpful, encouraging people to sing along by listening, watching song leader, etc., as much as possible instead of 'burying' their heads in the book. |
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16 Dec 14 - 05:15 PM (#3686354) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer I was part of the original song selection committee for the the Rise Again Songbook back in 1997 or so. The list was submitted to Sing Out! for compilation and publication, but nothing happened. I joined the editing team of the resurrected project late in the summer of 2014. By that time, the songs had already been chosen. There isn't much room for change in the Songlist, because there is already a waiting list of substitutes for songs that we end up not using. But as I work on the book, I keep coming across songs that ought to be there. Feel free to suggest songs below, just in case there happens to be room. Other suggestions? -Joe- |
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16 Dec 14 - 06:14 PM (#3686374) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: GUEST,henryp I suggest Unison in Harmony written by Jim Boyes. It was recorded on the first CD by Coope Boyes & Simpson, Funny Old World, No Masters NMCD3, issued in 1993. I defy you not to join in! |
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17 Dec 14 - 04:46 AM (#3686444) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Sandra in Sydney well, if we are looking for wonderfully singable songs about singing try The People have Songs by Miguel Heatwole as posted by freda underhill a few years back THE PEOPLE HAVE SONGS (Miguel Heatwole) Here voices are tuned to each other in gladness To all here in common affection belongs Here joy and laughter meet keening and sadness Here tyranny's cursed for the people have songs Chorus: Let us set the room ringing with the sound of our singing When we come to the end let us hold the chord long Hear the harmonies rise and all close our eyes 'Til the last cadence dies the people have songs Here is war parting sweethearts Here are strong sweating sailors And poets for beauty who ardently long Here are people at work singing loud at their labours Here are marriage and drinking for the people have songs Respect for each other gives each one a hearing And whether the voice be uncertain or strong We listen with love if the heart is endearing Supported in harmony the people have songs Disdaining oppression like others before us Our gentleness angered by history's wrongs Our tradition endures, and our voices in chorus Are lifted in hope for the people have songs! |
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17 Dec 14 - 09:41 AM (#3686491) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: oldhippie Suggestions, Joe. Delete "Cats In The Cradle" and replace with another Harry Chapin song "A Better Place To Be" Adds: "Passing Through" Catie Curtis; "Gentle Arms of Eden" Dave Carter/Tracy Grammar; "Tools For The Soul" Danny Flowers; "The Trumpet Vine" Kate Wolf |
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19 Dec 14 - 03:34 PM (#3687203) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Stewart There seems to be large differences in lists of songs sung by song circles related to regions and when the songs were sung. I have a copy of the first song book/collection put together by Sally Ashford for the Seattle Song Circle when in began in 1977. These songs are quite different from those sung at the Seattle Song Circle today (which are largely out of Rise Up Singing). And song lists from other song circles that I have seen on the internet are very different again. That seems quite understandable as we all come from different backgrounds and were introduced to folk music at different times. I worry about the "homogenizing" effect of widely-used song books like Rise Up Singing and Rise Again. The song list for Rise Again contains many songs that I am not familiar with, and most I gather are fairly new songs. Nothing wrong with that, there may be some good songs there, but where are the old songs that I grew up singing, and other great old songs that I continue to discover that have met the test of time. We need to keep the old songs alive! Here is a collection of songs that I've assembled (mostly old) for use in community group singing and for a workshop on Song Collecting, which I will do at Dusty Strings in Seattle on Feb. 21, 2015. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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12 Aug 15 - 07:22 AM (#3729775) Subject: Index: 'Rise Again' Songbook From: Joe Offer Looks like the publication date for the Rise Again Songbook will be September 1. I started work on the book in August, 2014, and I researched some 1300 songs. 1200 of them were selected. I didn't always get my way, but editors Peter Blood and Annie Patterson did accept most of the changes I suggested. I'm glad they gave me a chance to give input on this book. My materialistic brother doesn't understand why I spent 8 hours a day for a year working on this book without pay, but I'm glad I did. To me, it's good enough that Peter and Annie named me one of two associate editors. Now that the book has gone to the printer, I'm working on a database of background information for every song in the book. There are some aspects of this book that I really don't like. But all in all, I think it's a very good collection of songs that are presented very well. I'm especially proud of our "Ballads and Old Songs" and "Blues" chapters. "Pub Songs" and "Sea and Sailors" are a couple other chapters that I really like. I think we did justice to these songs. YOu can buy a copy of this book from http://amazon.mudcat.org/ for $17.58. This is the list of songs for the book that's on the Website of our publisher, Hal Leonard. I think it's accurate.
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12 Aug 15 - 07:27 AM (#3729777) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer (continued)
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12 Aug 15 - 07:28 AM (#3729778) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Still more....
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12 Aug 15 - 09:46 AM (#3729804) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: artbrooks Available in both regular and spiral binding (latter releases 8/28). Direct link at Amazon:"Rise Again".
-Joe- |
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12 Aug 15 - 07:15 PM (#3729929) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Janie You are amazing Joe. Clearly your efforts represent extensive labor of love. |
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12 Aug 15 - 08:51 PM (#3729937) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: maeve Good work, Joe. Thanks for your efforts |
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13 Aug 15 - 01:47 AM (#3729958) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: michaelr Wow, Joe, that's huge - 1200 songs! How heavy is this tome? Or is it even more crammed than the original? |
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13 Aug 15 - 04:55 AM (#3729992) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Roger the Skiffler Added to my Xmas wishlist. RtS |
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13 Aug 15 - 04:56 AM (#3729993) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Hi, Michael. Both books have 1200 songs, and there are no duplications between the two. My PDF stops at page 287, but doesn't include the index. I'm guessing the final page count will be 300. Rise Up Singing had 281 pages, including the index. We're hoping the font in Rise Again is a bit more legible than what we had in Rise Up Singing. I did a pretty full research job on every song, usually providing editor Peter Blood with more than one text to choose from. I tried to find two printed sources and two recordings for each song, relying on the Internet as a primary source only if I couldn't find a printed source - I often had twenty books stacked up next to my desk. Some songs took me half an hour to research, some a couple of days. We did the whole thing on Google Docs, which was great for a community effort like we were doing. I also tracked down the copyright holders Hal Leonard couldn't reach. I think I made contact with 100% of the copyright holders that Hal Leonard didn't get, but not all of them gave permission. It was cool to wake up one morning to a phone call from Iris Dement. All the others were contacts by email. Now I'm working on the supplemental database. It will be on the Website for the book, and will provide links for each song (if available) for Wikipedia, Mudcat, the songwriter's Website, Roud, and the Traditional Ballad Index. Oh, and a YouTube link for almost every song, and I've made Spotify playlists for all the songs. I'm also collecting English translations for all of our foreign language songs. Mudcat's Monique did translations for all the French and Spanish songs, and several other Mudcatters helped in various ways. It's been a lot of fun to work on this. -Joe- P.S. I wonder if Barry Finn is spinning in his grave, now that his friend Joe Offer is associate editor of the sequel to the "Blue Book." The Devil made me do it, Barry... |
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13 Aug 15 - 07:02 AM (#3730017) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Will Fly Joe - I'm very impressed by your hard work and dedication. I've never used a songbook in my life - always learned by heart whatever I've ever sung or played - except in those cases (usually at recording or backing sessions, or in a band I've just joined) where something unknown has been set down before me and I have to play it as is. Nevertheless, we all have recourse to reference works from time to time - they can save hours of research - and we're indebted to people like you for their existence. Thanks, Will |
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13 Aug 15 - 05:16 PM (#3730116) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: GUEST,# I do not buy stuff through Amazon. Is it available elsewhere? |
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13 Aug 15 - 07:03 PM (#3730134) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer The book is available through Barnes & Noble, and I'm sure most booksellers can get it for you. You can also get it for an undiscounted price from the publisher, Hal Leonard. Also from Peter Blood and Annie Patterson's Website, https://www.riseupandsing.org/ - that's probably the best place. Peter Blood told me last night that the large-format book is already available, although he hasn't seen a copy himself. I can't remember when I started getting PDF copies of sections of the book after they were laid out by Annie Patterson. I think it was April, maybe earlier. We got the completed book about June 1, and did proofreading until about July 1...with a few last-minute corrections after that. -Joe- |
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13 Aug 15 - 09:01 PM (#3730165) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: ChanteyLass I look forward to getting my hands on this! |
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13 Aug 15 - 10:19 PM (#3730180) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: GUEST,# Thanks for the info, Joe. Great work to you and Monique, btw. |
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14 Aug 15 - 09:06 AM (#3730306) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: artbrooks Book ordered. Joe, is some sort of secret code going to be needed to access the online backup material? |
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16 Aug 15 - 05:16 PM (#3730787) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Hi, Art - I believe the backup material will be freely available to the public. We have YouTube links for almost every song, and I have the task of furnishing links (when available) for Wikipedia, Mudcat, Traditional Ballad Index, Roud, and songwriter Websites. We plan to have the Website up by September, but my part is going slowly. I have some 900 songs left to index, and I need my beauty rest. I also made Spotify playlists for all the songs, but I'm wondering how to make sure everybody can find them. They're titled Rise Again - chaptertitle. Can anybody find them? -Joe- |
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21 Aug 15 - 01:28 AM (#3731965) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer So, I got my copy in the mail today, and I'm pretty proud. It's like having a new grandchild, or something like that. ...and I quickly found my first typo. I swear I corrected that one, but apparently the correction didn't "take." I'm sure I'll find more mistakes, but the book looks very good. I have to say there a good number of songs in the book that I don't like, but that's a reminder that I'm Associate Editor, not the Editor. Oh, well. But I think we can be proud of the work we did on this book. I hope you all like it. The Website for the book is https://www.riseupandsing.org/. We'll soon have a database of the songs in the book, with YouTube links, and links to further information on almost every song. -Joe- |
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21 Aug 15 - 11:09 PM (#3732267) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: ChanteyLass I'm probably going to have to go to my local bookstore and have them get it for me because I don't buy online. |
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22 Aug 15 - 01:53 PM (#3732408) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Bill D Well.. now a crutch for BOTH arms? ;>) I do not look forward to an additional list of songs (a couple of thousand now?) where people complain..or even interrupt... to say "you're singing it wrong" as in Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: dick greenhaus - PM Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:43 AM or Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II From: dick greenhaus - PM Date: 15 Dec 12 - 05:05 PM Ron Davies explained very well up in this thread how crib sheets **in general** are useful at times, but expecting everyone else to use the same crib sheet/book is not nice. I have not, like Barry Finn or Ron, walked out on a sing where The Book was used, but I cringe quietly. Fortunately, the FSGW Open Sing has only a couple who who use it. And the Getaway has only scattered occasions where it pops up.... and the Getaway has 3-7 other options at any one moment if one just cannot abide what is happening. I do understand that Vol. 2 has made more of an attempt to avoid the most egregious errors and to pay 'more' attention to traditional versions of songs, but I have little doubt that it will still be used as The Bible, Book II by many. I guess I'll just wait & see how it goes. |
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22 Aug 15 - 07:39 PM (#3732454) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Hi, Bill - I worked very hard to try to ensure that the lyrics of all traditional songs in the book are authentic, and Editor Peter Blood accepted almost all my recommendations on the traditional songs. I typed up a caveat for the introduction to the book. I posted it above, but here it is again: Here's the instruction box I've submitted for inclusion in the songbook:
And here's how it ended up, after editing:
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23 Aug 15 - 09:50 AM (#3732560) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Bill D Joe... that is exactly the sort of admonition/disclaimer/warning/introduction this book needs, and I'm glad that it was included. The real problem is that it is mostly lost on those who need it the most. People often post ...or ask about.... odd little songs from their childhood here. Yon Yonson, or Dunderbeck's Machine or recently, the one that refers to "Macedonians in full battle array" Some one will give lyrics, and others will retype the whole thing to change one or two words! Even Dunderbeck's Machine gets argument that it should be "Johnny Rebeck". "That's the way my grandfather sang it!" The same basic problem is seen when someone asks for the words...or chords... or tune... or all three... to some song 'covered' by someone famous, whether it is anywhere near traditional or not. They heard it that way first, and by golly, they don't WANT any corrections or suggestions! The point is that far too many simply do-not-want to be exposed to 'new' versions... or even the author's original, if known. It is very like the resistance to new translations of the Bible by those brought up on the King James version. RUS #1 became a bible for a lot of people, and those who commit to a bible often have the notion that everyone else 'should' realize that the *truth* is somehow embedded in it. This is not a serious problem when like minded people gather and turn to page 47 in unison... but when they appear at an open forum attended by more ...ummmm... eclectic.... folk and read (awkwardly) with the Book in their face, it makes the whole thing awkward. It has been said that any book that gets people to sing & share is a good thing, and may be a first step to a wider view of traditional music.... the important term being 'may'. (*grin* Joe... you even help make my point in your use of a tune for "The Key of R".... but perhaps the very concept embodied in the song excuses deviation. I don't see it listed in the Book.... maybe just as well.) |
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23 Aug 15 - 06:40 PM (#3732714) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Hi, Bill - gee, I thought our discussions on "Yon Yonson" and "Dunderbeck" were exemplary exchanges of great examples of the Folk Process. I didn't notice anyone saying that theirs was the only correct version. Oh, and in Wisconsin, it's "Johnny Verbeck." "Dunderbeck" is the commercial version of the song, sung by people who don't really know.... My version was made up by kids who used to be in my Boy Scout troop....I think. -Joe- |
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23 Aug 15 - 07:48 PM (#3732730) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: wysiwyg I participate in two well led singing communities that use RUS, and each one also has a self-compiled (printed) collection of songs. I've started a third, as recently described elsewhere. Each of these groups uses not only RUS and their own songbook, but one another's collections as well. Both groups quite happily welcomed (and actively supported) my starting the third group. In none of these does anyone object to playing together from the books to learn a new piece, and once they're familiar with a song many members add lovely improvised or harmony parts-- there are no Book Police. And just like Mudcat threads, if an individual wants to add a second or third arrangement to the book, that's fine too. General agreement to singing or playing in the key set by the person choosing the song is just about the only requirement.... except that in an effort to keep folk and bluegrass distinct, one group frowns on banjos. People in these groups (and leading th may not be total purists who conform to some other leaders' notions of what the rules ought to be-- but they do sound like they're having the kind of fun Pete Seeger described in RUS. They're growing in numbers-- and in songs enjoyed. ~Susan |
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23 Aug 15 - 09:30 PM (#3732756) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Some of my best friends view Rise Up Singing users with disdain. It hurts sometimes, since I've been identified with the book since almost the very beginning. And now I'm associate editor of the sequel, and what are they going to think of me now? I suppose I have to accept the fact that we all think of each other as caricatures, and those caricatures allow us to know so little about what people are in reality. Some people who use Rise Up Singing are really obnoxious and are really horrible singers, and they fit the caricature. Other people who use the book are actually quite enjoyable to listen to, so much so that we forget that they're looking at a book while they're singing. And I suppose it will be the same with Rise Again. Hell, even Bill Day would disdain me....if he didn't know me. -Joe- |
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09 Sep 15 - 09:04 AM (#3736427) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: wysiwyg JOE-- Is an index for RUS ONE already posted some where? If not, I have one I can email you. (I'm working on a cross reference of the two to carry in my sing bag.) ~S~ |
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09 Sep 15 - 11:50 AM (#3736462) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Corn Field I pre-ordered the one that is described as "Spiral Bound" on Amazon. The photo for the one that is currently shipping shows it is also spiral bound. Are both the normal and large print versions spiral bound? |
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09 Sep 15 - 12:53 PM (#3736470) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Hi, Corn Field - All the Rise Again books I've seen are spiral bound, and I've seen hundreds. I asked editor Peter Blood, and he's not certain what bindings Hal Leonard is going to come up with. The "paperback" book that's currently $16.03 at Amazon, has a cover that's 9 inches by 12 inches. The "spiral-bound" book that's listed as $25 at Amazon. has a smaller size, 7.5 by 10 inches - and it's temporarily out of stock. So, for now, the larger format is cheaper at Amazon. I ordered a dozen of the cheaper books, and was surprised to get them in large format. On their concert tour, Peter Blood and Annie Patterson are selling the large books for $25 and the small ones for $20, tax included. The large books were printed first, about August 15. I'm guessing the small books started printing about the end of August. We're having trouble keeping up with demand on the small books right now, but I imagine things will balance out by sometime in October. Sing Out! did print some "perfect-bound" (glued, not spiral) versions of Rise Up Singing, but the spiral bound books have been far more popular. My guess is that Hal Leonard will stick with spiral binding for both sizes of both books. I went to Peter and Annie's weekend workshop at the Quaker Center in the redwoods of Ben Lomond, California, over Labor Day. It was delightful. In their sessions, Peter and Annie concentrated on songs the audience wasn't likely to know. During free time, groups gathered in various locations to try out other stuff. We had a lot of fun with the Motown, Rock, British Invasion, and Surfin' chapters. Not particularly folk music, but it sure was fun. -Joe- |
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09 Sep 15 - 01:43 PM (#3736477) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: maeve Joe, thank you for your hard and sometime frustrating work on this edition of 'Rise Again'. I very much appreciate your care in selecting lyric versions with a view toward accuracy and understanding of the way songs can flex, and stating the intended use for the book. Those who understand how to use it will benefit, and the others are at least trying to sing. |
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10 Sep 15 - 11:07 PM (#3736697) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: ChanteyLass I'm hoping to get to the concert at Sandywoods in Tiverton, RI, and buy my copy there. Joe, the price for copies there seems different from what you indicated.https://www.riseupandsing.org/events/rise-again-providence Sandywoods is not in Providence. It is in the far northeastern corner of RI, and the best way for me to get there is to drive from my RI home through several MA communities including Fall River and re-enter RI! |
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11 Sep 15 - 12:59 AM (#3736704) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Yeah, Chantey Lass, you're right about the price difference. For now, Amazon is selling the books for less than the discounted price Peter and Annie can sell them for - and for some reason, they're selling the large-format book cheaper than the small one. If you want the large-format book, order it for $16.03 plus tax from Amazon. If you want the small-format book, order it from Peter & Annie for $20, taxes paid. Sooner or later, Amazon will find out it has the prices mixed up. -Joe- P.S. Oh, and Chanty Lass - for people who have no ties to Rhode Island, everything that isn't Newport, is Providence. I know better, because I married a Woonsocket girl who isn't even French...(her first language was Polish, but she's a vegetarian and I'm the one who loves Polish food). |
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19 Oct 15 - 10:54 AM (#3745182) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: GUEST I know that people from elsewhere think RI has only two communities, Newport and Providence, but I didn't want anyone thinking they could have dinner in Prov. and be only a few minutes from the concert venue which is about a half-hour drive to Tiverton! I've got a ticket and book reserved for me by a friend who does money stuff online. I don't, and hoping to get a ticket at the door is a chance I don't want to take. |
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19 Oct 15 - 09:55 PM (#3745342) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: GUEST,bbc Got my copy, Joe! Thanks for your hard work! Best always, Barbara |
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29 Oct 15 - 05:14 AM (#3747263) Subject: Rise Again Songbook From: Roger the Skiffler My birthday copy arrived -wrapped up in a useful sack! Great selection, a tribute to all your hard work, Joe and friends. RtS |
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29 Oct 15 - 08:33 PM (#3747415) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: ChanteyLass I didn't realize my cookie had crumbled when I posted on Oct. 19 at 10:54 AM. I had fun singing along on Sunday evening with Peter and Annie, Bill Harley, Charlie King, and Magpie. I came home with the book I'd pre-ordered plus two more to give as gifts plus two copies of Rise Up Singing to give as gifts. I've had my own copy of RUS for many years. I am now happy and broke but have only a few more Christmas presents to buy! |
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30 Oct 15 - 04:13 AM (#3747437) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Hi, Joe - I think "Battle Hymn" was skipped because it was too commonly known, so there wouldn't be a great need for it in a book. "St. Louis Blues" would be a good one for the list I'm compiling for Book #3. -Joe- |
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30 Oct 15 - 04:43 AM (#3747441) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Roger the Skiffler Previously I posted to the wrong thread. As I've said on the MC FB page, I had a mysterious sack to open on my birthday and it was Rise Again. What a wonderful selection, popular as well as traditional. Well done, Joe and collaborators. RtS |
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18 Dec 15 - 08:28 PM (#3759482) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Rex I got a copy of Rise Again a few months ago. I followed Joe's suggestion and ordered the lower price (and larger with ring binding) version. After taking my time looking through it all I am very pleased to have it in my library. I was happy to see it similar in format to Rise Up Singing and Winds of the People that came before. There are many of my old favorites and new material placed in thoughtful subject sets. Even with cross referencing! Nice. But perhaps the best part of Rise Again are the gems I am finding that I never knew existed. Thank you to Joe and everyone that put this together. A songbook for those who know their way around a song or a concert hall and also for those who do not. Rex |
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18 Dec 15 - 09:11 PM (#3759494) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Thanks, Rex. I don't know why Hal Leonard makes such small print runs, but I'm glad the first run was small - the index had wrong page numbers for about 100 songs. There are lyrics corrections and a link to the index correction sheet here: The second printing came out in October, with a corrected index. We sold out the second printing in mid-November. I think that means we've sold 40,000 copies. The third printing came out this week. I'm hoping to get restocked by Christmas. As Rex says, Amazon doesn't have its prices straight, so they're charging a bargain price for the large-format edition, cheaper than you can get it from me or from the editors, Peter Blood and Annie Patterson. But to my mind, the best way to get the book is to order it from the editors, Peter Blood and Annie Patterson:They're nice people and this is how they make their living. They'll give you a 20% discount if you buy 5 copies, and an even better discount if you buy boxes of 15 copies. I have a supply of books that I sell to people in Northern California, but I can sell you a copy if you have problems getting one from other sources. If you are outside the United States, the best way to get the book may be to go to the Amazon address that serves your area. I've had some problems with that. I sent a copy to Jack Campin through http://amazonUK.mudcat.org. The next day, I tried to send a copy to Tattie Bogle the same way, and it didn't work. So, I paid the horrendous postage and sent it direct to her. Whether she liked it or not, Tattie Bogle got a copy autographed by Associate Editor Joe Offer, which I'm not sure is something that adds value to the book... I cringe every time I find a mistake in the book, but I guess the adage that "shit happens" is true. We're collecting corrections, and we will include all of them in a future edition. We can't add all the corrections as they come in, because it costs a lot to make new plates if the old ones aren't worn out. We corrected the index because that was essential, but a new edition with song corrections won't come for a while. So far, the only song that is totally screwed up is "Four/Seven Nights Drunk," which has corrections on the Website. There are lots more minor corrections - those are the ones that make me cringe. I wish they could be corrected right away, but I'm told we have to wait. If you have any corrections to submit, send them to me. I guess it's the same with any such project - there will always be some mistakes, and there will always be some things that could have been better. But all in all, I think it's a very good songbook, and I'm glad to have had a part in making it. -Joe Offer- joe@mudcat.org |
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26 Dec 15 - 07:15 PM (#3760995) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer I made Spotify playlists for each chapter of Rise Again, but I haven't been able to make them work the way I want them to. I'd like to have them work for people without them having to "follow" me. How's this link? I think you have to be registered with Spotify for it to work, but maybe not. -Joe- |
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01 Jan 16 - 11:22 PM (#3762275) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: GUEST,TomC Joe, I found some incorrect lyrics in a song when compared to the sheet music version. Where can the corrections be sent?
-Joe- |
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01 Jan 16 - 11:45 PM (#3762279) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Amos At the monthly song circle of the San Diego Folk Song SOciety, founded long ago by no less a personage than Sam Hinton, the chairman was full of glee at having sacquired this surprising, exciting new volume of Singing. He gloated and shared with rare enthusiasm, especially because he'd gotten an edition in large text. Your fame is spreading! |
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06 Jan 16 - 02:47 AM (#3763155) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Here's a list of Spotify playlist links for each chapter in the Rise Again Songbook: Ballads & Old Songs Blues British Invasion Country Dignity & Diversity Dreams & Mystery Earthcare Faith Family Farm & Prairie Freedom Friendship & Community Funny Songs Golden Oldies Good Times Gospel & Sprituals Healing & Letting Go Home & Roots Hope & Strength Jazz & Swing Love Lullabies Millennial Songs Motown and R&B Musicals Old-Timey & Bluegrass Outdoors Peace Play Pub Songs Rich & Poor Rock Around the Clock Seas & Sailors Sing People Sing Struggle Surfin' USA Time & Changes Travelin' Work If you're a member of Spotify and you're logged in, the link should take you direct to the playlist. If you're not a Spotify member, the link will lead you to the form where you can sign up for membership - which is free (at least for now). Hope you enjoy these songs. -Joe Offer, Associate Editor- Rise Again Songbook |
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18 Feb 16 - 03:48 AM (#3773475) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Here's a link to the YouTube channel for the Rise Again and Rise Up Singing Songbooks: Here are some other playlists for songs from Rise Up Singing: |
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05 May 16 - 12:32 AM (#3788695) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer After the Rise Again Songbook came out in August, 2015, editors Peter Blood and Annie Patterson put us to work building a database of information meant to supplement the songs in the songbook. It's not quite finished, but it's now available online. Take a look here:The most significant feature, is a collection links to YouTube recordings of almost every song in the book. Of course, I'm proud of the links to Mudcat threads, the Traditional Ballad Index, the Roud Index, and Wikipedia. That was my part of the job. Now we're working on a second database, a supplement to the Rise Up Singing (RUS) songbook. I'm having trouble finding online information on many of the songs in RUS. I thought I knew all those songs, but there are many I never knew were there. -Joe- |
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20 Jul 17 - 02:39 AM (#3867221) Subject: Spotify Playlists for Rise Up Singing Songbook From: Joe Offer Somebody made up Spotify playlists for the chapters in the Rise Up Singing Songbook. Check these out, and let me know if any aren't working properly.
Ballads & Old Songs City Creativity Dreams & Fantasies Ecology Faith Farm & Prairie Freedom Friendship Funny Songs Golden Oldies Good Times Gospel Hard Times & Blues Home & Family Hope Love Lullabies Men Mountain Voices Outdoors Peace Play Rich & Poor Rounds Sacred Rounds & Chants Sea Spirituals Struggle Time & Changes Travelin' Unity Women Work |
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20 Jul 17 - 01:09 PM (#3867346) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: EBarnacle Going back to an earlier part of this thread, I have recently come across a rather horrifying [at least to me] version of singing by the book. There is a local meetup group which gathers each Thursday. It advertises itself as "acoustic" but makes little effort to minimize the amplified performers. There is a mix of performer levels from beginners through advanced. The real horror is threefold. First, the amped performers make it difficult to hear the others, like the person next to you. Second, the official "book" is a website with the versions of the songs done by the group so that the leader of a song says "Let's do X" and everyone goes to that song in the collection. Finally, there is no encouragement to sing or play harmonies. Everyone works in unison, often poorly. Lady Hillary attends this group to help her learn harmonica and is also learning mandolin. I wonder when she will decide she has gotten better than what they do and will look for a better venue. A few weeks ago, when I came to pick her up she called up Mingulay Boat Song for me and their official lyrics were almost unrecognizable. Joe, as one who sees a shortage of Yiddish songs in the circles I attend, I noted the relative absence of Balkan and Arabic songs in the indices you posted. Is that something to look forward to in Fall over Laughing 3? |
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20 Jul 17 - 02:06 PM (#3867356) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Hi, EBarnacle. I think we had five Arabic songs under consideration for the Rise Again songbook that came out in 2015. I think we got one in, and that one was half in English. The fault is partly mine - I spent hours and hours trying to track down people who could give us licenses for publication, and failed. There was one song I remember where I came across several articles saying how litigious the songwriter was in protecting her rights to her works - but I could never find out how to get past the lawsuits and get legal permission. Our publisher, Hal Leonard, didn't want to deal with litigation. There were lots of songs that Hal Leonard already had permission for, but it was my job to track down rights for the ones not already covered by Hal Leonard. I think Hal Leonard gave us March 30 2015 as the deadline for licenses. Any unlicensed songs were dropped. The book came out about August 15 2015. We tried to stick with songs that people would be likely to learn, and we didn't come up with any Balkan songs. I'm quite proud of the number of Yiddish, Hebrew, Spanish, French, German, and Italian songs we were able to include - Mudcatter Monique worked with me extensively on our foreign-language songs. But yeah, I failed on the Balkan and Arabic front. What can I say? No Asian-language songs I can think of. A coupla Russian songs, maybe - but no other Slavic languages. I did get "Mingulay Boat Song" right. I bought an old copy of a Hugh Roberton songbook, and copied the lyrics from there. By the way, Mudcat was the primary research tool used on the Rise Again Songbook - and I was the primary researcher. -Joe- |
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20 Jul 17 - 02:23 PM (#3867361) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: EBarnacle I agree you did a good job. The version of Mingulay they do misses on both scanning and the words themselves. Plus, they insist on accompanying it. My qvetch is as much about the people who are locked into "their" book as it is about what is the correct way of running a group. If it's a group, all of the participants should be audible, not just the "experts." To me acoustic means unamplified and unmodified. This group fails on several counts. It does make me appreciate the sound man who works with us [the Sloop Singers] at the Hudson River Revival even more. The sound guy can make or break a group--but that's another thread. |
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20 Jul 17 - 03:41 PM (#3867366) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Oh, that brings up another issue. A couple of us insisted that Rise Again should NOT include guitar chords with songs that are traditionally sung a cappella, but we lost that battle. Peter Blood agreed that we might be right, but that chords give at least some idea of the melody. I'll grant him that point; but as a result, you will often see guitarists playing when people are singing sea songs or ballads from our two songbooks. There are also singers who insist on having everyone sing all of the words to all of the verses on call-and-response sea chanteys. It is to gag for. -Joe- |
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20 Jul 17 - 04:08 PM (#3867372) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: EBarnacle A simple solution would be to refer the reader to sites that present the song and not include the chords for a capella pieces. Presenting chords does not really give the melody to people who don't have an idea of what it should be. Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not. |
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20 Jul 17 - 05:20 PM (#3867378) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: Joe Offer Agreed, but I lost the battle, anyhow. The chords won't be removed until the third volume of "Fall Over Laughing" (your words, not mine) is released. Peter and Annie have no desire to do a third volume, but they said I can have the job. I figured we could make it an all-Mudcat, all-Volunteer, all-Folk effort. Hey, we could call it The Digital Tradition! Maybe since the second book was titled Rise Again should the third be titled Not Again! ???? But generally, I like both books and I'm proud to be associated with them. -Joe- |
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21 Aug 20 - 05:46 AM (#4069037) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: GUEST,Mysha Hi, I don't have the books with me, but would there be room enough to add markings to the next editions to indicate "a capella; chords for practice only" and "call and response; chorus sing only every other line"? Bye Mysha |
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21 Aug 20 - 06:10 AM (#4069038) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: GUEST,Mysha BTW, Joe: If you're involved in the indexes for the books, could you suggest an index that covers both books? Also, if you are, could you or anyone else check that it's possible to follow the alphabet links on top of the page? E.g. ALPHABETICAL SONG LIST should go to the start of A if the A is clicked. (It wouldn't do that anyway, for a reason that eludes me so far, but that's a different issue.) For me, those links are actually something much more complicated, that don't actually go anywhere. Bye Mysha |
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21 Aug 20 - 06:22 AM (#4069040) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: GUEST,Mysha Hi, The question that the post above was a BTW to, which I completely forgot in trying to make the title index work, was: Do you have a list of "didn't make it in time" titles? I could imagine that some might have given consent after the deadline. And some might still be tried again, or might have alternatives that haven't been tried because all you needed for that one version was the permission you asked for. All this to say: Such a list might play a part for Rise Up Unlimited. (Place for a BTW.) Bye Mysha |
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12 Apr 21 - 03:56 PM (#4102008) Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing Book II: 'Rise Again' From: voyager A belated shout out to editor J.O. for editing this great songbook. This will be a great update to my Fireside Book of American Music that I had to rebind with duct tape this week (lol) Gone, Gonna Rise Again (Si Kahn) Sing out voyager |