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30 May 05 - 11:11 AM (#1496083) Subject: happy? - May 30 From: Abby Sale In 2005 Memorial Day, the last Monday in May, falls on the 30th: Sadly, there are many songs we might sing: "Ford o' Kabul River" – Kabul town's by Kabul river-- R. Kipling, Barrack-Room Ballads tune: Peter Bellamy. 46 officers & men of the 10th Hussars drowned in a night crossing of the Kabul River 3/31/1879. The wars demonstrated the ease of overrunning Afghanistan and the difficulty of holding it. "And the Band Played 'Waltzing Matilda'" - When I was a young man, I carried me gun; Eric Bogle "Hanging from the Old Barbed Wire" – If you want to find the General; It appears that the song was sung in the trenches early in World War I. Perhaps with reference to the Battle of the Somme "Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye" – While goin' the road to sweet Athy, hurroo, hurroo; Commonly thought to deal with fighting in Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) in the British occupation, 1796–1948. "Stand to Your Glasses" So stand to your glasses, steady Let not a tear fill your eye Here's to the dead already, And hear's to the next man to die. WWI version, adapted from Bartholomew Dowling, 1823–1863 Copyright © 2005, Abby Sale - all rights reserved What are Happy's all about? See Clicky |
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30 May 05 - 06:13 PM (#1496329) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: GUEST,Allen You could add Farewell to Lochaber, Bonny Lighthorseman, the Wars O' Germany, Johnny Has Gone for a Soldier, Floo'ers O' the Forest, Gethsemane (Kipling and bellamy again) and much besides. BTW never heard the bit about Johnny and fighting in Sri Lanka, in fact there wasn't that much of it. |
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31 May 05 - 07:35 AM (#1496612) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: GUEST,Wolfgang Is there a historical reason for memorial day being on this particular day? Wolfgang |
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31 May 05 - 04:29 PM (#1496852) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: Abby Sale I don't know. Here's the Encyclopaedia Britannica (a US book) entry: ...also called Decoration Day, public legal holiday in the United States and its territories and among its armed forces, honouring U.S. citizens who have died in war. Originally commemorating soldiers killed in the American Civil War, the observance was later extended to all U.S. war dead. Most states conform to the federal practice of observing the holiday on the last Monday in May, which began in 1971, but a few retain the long-established day of celebration, May 30. National observance is marked officially bythe placing of a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia. The custom itself of honouring the graves of the war dead began before the close of the Civil War. In the South, the town of Columbus, Miss., claims origination of a formal observance for both the Union and the Confederate dead in 1866. Waterloo, N.Y., is cited as the birthplace of the observance in the North in the same year. There was no fixed day of national celebration, however, until 1868, when Commander in Chief John A. Logan of the Grand Army of the Republic issued a general order designating May 30,1868, "for the purpose of strewing with flowers or otherwise decorating the graves of comrades who died in defense of their country during the late rebellion." In addition to the national holiday, Confederate memorial days continue to be celebrated in some Southern states. Similar commemorations are observed in numerous other countries. (Virginia, eg, has Confederate Mem Day the same day.) |
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31 May 05 - 04:38 PM (#1496859) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: GUEST,Allen Abby, where did you hear that about Ceylon? |
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31 May 05 - 05:14 PM (#1496885) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: Blackcatter The Encyclopedia is essentially correct. Commander in Chief John A. Logan's general order is possibly tied to a French remembrance day called "The Day of Ashes" which commemorated Napoleon's ashes being returned to France. Supposedly, one of the originators of Memorial Day was French and made this connection. The 1971 enactment of the national holiday is derrived from the 1868 general order. Abby - have any info on the "Day of Ashes?" |
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31 May 05 - 08:01 PM (#1496993) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: Abby Sale GUEST,Allen, You mean Ceylon's use in "Johnny I Hardly Knew You?" I believe it's controversial. Far as I know, the sole (but pretty good) reason for the assumption he was off visiting there is the line in the song: I'm happy for to see ye home, All from the island of Sulloon (Spelling varies) I have a vague memory protesting that the Irish didn't fight there. But, as said, it's generally assumed to be Ceylon. =================================== Blackcatter, No particular knowledge. Google gives the following words at several sites but no attribution: A woman of French extraction and leader of the Virginia women's movement, Cassandra Oliver Moncure, took responsibility of coordinating the activities of several groups into a combined ceremony on May 30. It is said that she picked that day because it corresponded to the Day of Ashes in France, a solemn day that commemorates the return of the remains of Napoleon Bonaparte to France from St. Helena. Nappy died 5/5/1821. (For British readers, that would be 5/5/1821, of course.) FWIW, I find, On 8 October 1840, La Belle-Poule arrived at St. Helena and one week later, on 15 October, the commission dug up the emperor's coffin. The prince opens it and discovers that the body has been perfectly preserved. Napoleon is wearing the uniform of the Chasseurs de la Garde. at stuff Source given is Guide Michelin, Paris et sa banlieue, Paris, 1976 |
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31 May 05 - 09:37 PM (#1497073) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: Abby Sale Wolfgang, I trust that since November 2000 (Jutland) you are well-aware how to pronounce 'Jutland.' I can't now think of any word in modern English in which J uses a Y sound. Always the hard J as in Just. |
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01 Jun 05 - 03:00 AM (#1497171) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: GUEST,Allen If it is Ceylon, all it means is service in the Empire. |
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01 Jun 05 - 08:11 AM (#1497289) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: manitas_at_work How about 'fjord'? |
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01 Jun 05 - 04:32 PM (#1497593) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: GUEST,Allen That, strictly speaking, is not an English word. |
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01 Jun 05 - 05:50 PM (#1497639) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: Manitas_at_home It's in Webster's Universal, Longman's Family, the Penguin Pocket and the Little Oxford. Just because it was adopted into English doesn't make it any less valid as an English word. How about Jungian, junta or jojoba? |
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01 Jun 05 - 06:23 PM (#1497665) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: GUEST,Allens These are all exceptions. I do believe the question was about proper English not loan words. Besides Junta is kh not yu. |
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02 Jun 05 - 02:01 AM (#1497923) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: Manitas_at_home If it's in the dictionary it's "proper" English unless it's qualified as slang or archaic. Many English words are loan words. I think I'll believe the lexicographers. |
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02 Jun 05 - 06:22 AM (#1498037) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: GUEST,Allen Loan words are considered exceptions. They are not a natural occurence in English. By proper English I ment non loan words. |
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02 Jun 05 - 08:41 AM (#1498118) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: manitas_at_work Of course loan words are a natural occurrence in English! Try speaking English without any Hindi, Arabic,Turkish, Persian, German, Spanish, French etc etc words and see the huge gaps. Try to avoid any words derived from Old French, Old Norse, Latin or Greek and see how far you get. The very strength of English is it's ability to absorb words from other languages. |
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02 Jun 05 - 09:13 AM (#1498140) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: GUEST,Allen Missing the point. of course there are thousands of loan words, but it is not a natural process linguistically. |
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02 Jun 05 - 10:27 AM (#1498197) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: manitas_at_work You mean someone sat down and said let's borrow words from other languages to describe concepts we don't have yet and that nobody had ever done it up to that point? Yes, right! It's as natural to borrow words as it is to borrow the ideas they describe like fire, wheel, pottery etc. |
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02 Jun 05 - 10:34 AM (#1498203) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: GUEST,Allen J as Y does not occur outside of loan words, and then not very often. The natural proccess is just what would happen if there were no loan words. A loan word, no matter how numerous they are, is an EXCEPTION. |
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03 Jun 05 - 02:11 AM (#1498919) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: Manitas_at_home Loan words are not exceptions and no amount of shouting will make them so. They are a natural part of a languages growth and development. Without them we would still be speaking some proto- Indo-European language. Without them our poetry and prose would be very limited. Without them we would not even be able to discuss many concepts as we would not have the vocabulary. And even if they were exceptions they would still be part of the language. |
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03 Jun 05 - 02:25 AM (#1498921) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: GUEST,Allen That is not what I was saying. Linguistically speaking, loan words are considered exceptions. That is all. I was not arguing whether they were good or bad, many or few, not part of the language or whatever. |
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03 Jun 05 - 04:19 AM (#1498968) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: manitas_at_work Well, yes you were implying they were not part of the language. When I suggested 'fjord' you said it wasn't an English word. Then you said my other examples were exceptions because they were loan words. They're either part of the language or they are not, the opinion of the professional lexicographers is that they are. |
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03 Jun 05 - 11:10 AM (#1499213) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: Wolfgang If I tell you now that Abby's post directed to me mentioning Jutland was intended for the Happy? - May 31 thread and only by mistake ended here will you then continue the discussion on the other thread? Wolfgang |
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04 Jun 05 - 01:56 AM (#1499915) Subject: RE: happy? - May 30 From: Manitas_at_home Certainly, I'll just move over... |