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16 Jun 05 - 05:48 PM (#1502515) Subject: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: SharonA I attended a song-critique meeting the other day (where people bring in songs they've written, play the songs and invite comments from the meeting's leader and the group). One of the participants (not me!) had a song with an ABBA rhyme in the verse followed by a CDCD rhyme in the pre-chorus (a.k.a. the "lift"). The leader of the group, a songwriter with connections to Nashville TN and some success in having his songs published, commented that he couldn't think of a popular or commercially successful song with that sort of rhyming scheme, and suggested that the writer change her lyrics if she intended to submit it for publication. That has got me to thinking: there must be some known songs out there that do have an ABBACDCD rhyming scheme... mustn't there? The nearest I came to coming up with one was to think of Don McLean's "And I Love You So" (a day after the meeting, of course!), which has an ABBA CDDC EEEFFE rhyme scheme: "And I love you so. The people ask me how, How I've lived till now; I tell them I don't know They say they understand How lonely life has been But life began again The day you took my hand. CHORUS: And yes, I know how lonely life can be. The shadows follow me And the night won't set me free. But I don't let the evening bring me down Now that you're around Me." Can anyone think of any ABBACDCD songs? They don't necessarily have to be popular songs, though I'd be curious to know if there are any (and vindicated in my refutation of the leader's criticism -- I didn't see anything wrong with using that rhyme scheme even if it isn't commonly heard on pap... I mean, pop radio stations!). Thanks, Sharon |
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17 Jun 05 - 05:22 AM (#1502843) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: Joe Offer Can't think of any, sharon - but I think it's a darn good question that deserves to be refreshed and sent to the top of the list. Anybody know of a book that lists songs by rhyme scheme? -Joe Offer- |
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17 Jun 05 - 06:23 AM (#1502865) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: beardedbruce Actually, it sounds like a shortened Italian sonnet structure- ( ABBAABBA CDCDCD) |
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17 Jun 05 - 12:26 PM (#1503036) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: GUEST,Joe Offer ...or a Scandanavian pop group: ABBAABBA Or the thing that the monkeys in the soo say. Abba dabba dabba, Abba dabba dabba No? Oh, forget it. -Joe Offer- |
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17 Jun 05 - 03:38 PM (#1503139) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: SharonA ARDY AR AR, Joe. :^) Bruce, interesting comment about sonnet structure! Tell me more; I'm not up on my Italian poetry. Thanks, Sharon |
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17 Jun 05 - 03:41 PM (#1503143) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: Q (Frank Staplin) In its online collection of representative poems, the University of Toronto website gives the rhyme form of the poem. Example: "Little Willie," by Eugene Field: ababcdcd Poem Index |
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18 Jun 05 - 01:35 PM (#1503715) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: SharonA Nice try, Q, but not quite what I'm looking for. I need an ABBA rhyme in the beginning, not ABAB. For example, "Little Willie" would have to look a bit like this to qualify: 1 When Willie was a little boy, 2 No more than five or six, 3 Right constantly he, with his tricks, 4 His mother did annoy. 5 Yet not a picayune cared I 6 For what he did or said, 7 Unless, as happened frequently, 8 The rascal wet the bed. |
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20 Jun 05 - 03:43 PM (#1505370) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: beardedbruce re sonnet structure: Major forms are Italian, English, and Irregular. Italian sonnets are based on an octet/sestet structure ( 8/6 lines) Rhyme schemes for the octet are usually abbaabba, but occasionally ( in English, with less rhymes) abbaacca. The rhyme scheme for the sestet could be any of several: cdcdcd cdecde cdeedc with some irregualar forms in English: cddccd ccddee in actual fact, with the English variations of the Italian form, there are probably sonnets with every possible combination of rhymes in the sestet. Some authorities have stated that Italian sonnets should NOT have a concluding couplet, but that is not rigirously supported by all. The English sonnet was based on a three quatrain and couplet structure. The quatrains could be abab ( common, or Shakespearian) or abba (envelope) The couplet was always gg :) The case of abba cddc effe gg gives an English sonnet that looks like an Italian. The actual form is determined by the logic of the poem (Italian [point/counterpoint] or English [example/example/example summary or contradiction] ) Irregular sonnets include 7 couplets, and mixed variations of the two forms. Sinec a sonnet by definition has a rhyme structure, there should never be more than 7 different rhyme sets, and there could be as few as 2. |
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20 Jun 05 - 06:11 PM (#1505470) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow I find the thought that people in the country music business worry much about formal rhyme schemes a bit absurd. It may of course be quite true, but that doesn't stop it being absurd. I suppose the idea might be that, if the effect was that successive verses seemed to be rhyming in different ways, it could be felt as clumsy, as if the rhymnes were just being thrown in at at random. But a verse doing it one way and a chorus or a bridge doing it the other way, I can't see how there'd be any problem there. |
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20 Jun 05 - 06:16 PM (#1505477) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: GUEST McGrath, You really need to get used to the idea that you are old, and have nothing of worth to contribute. Don't suppose that you will... |
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21 Jun 05 - 11:15 PM (#1506560) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: beardedbruce SharonA, some examples of all the forms are in the "In every thread someone has to be last!" thread. |
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22 Jun 05 - 10:20 AM (#1506938) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: Highlandman Just an odd thought: Close rhyme schemes tend to make a song catchier. More complex or distant rhyme schemes tend to give a song a more contemplative, ballad-like character. Commercial country music producers don't want contemplation, they want cash. A random sampling of the local pop country station over the last few days shows an overwhelming preference for close rhyme schemes, and probably 75% of them are (aa)B(cc)B - where (aa) would be an internal rhyme between two half-lines. (Sorry, don't know the academic way of notating this.) The US country music industry is eaten up with the herd mentality. Something worked once, so everyone has to copy it to the last detail whether they understand why it worked or not. A writer selling to a particular market has to work to its specifications, even if they are artificial. Just my cranky 2 cents. -HM |
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19 Aug 15 - 05:14 PM (#3731585) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: GUEST Sweet Baby James - James Taylor!!!!!!!!!!! Check it out. You're welcome. |
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20 Aug 15 - 10:36 AM (#3731800) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: GUEST,MikeOfNorthumbria (sans cookie) Hello McGrath of Harlow! Please ignore the anonymous grouch above, and keep right on contributing. Meanwhile, on the original subject of this thread (rhyming)- surely beauty is in the ear of the beholder? If it pleases enough people, a song will thrive, whatever its rhyme-scheme. On the whole, complex rhyming structures appear to work better for comedy (as with W S Gilbert, or Tom Lehrer) while simple ones seem more compatible with the deeper feelings. But in matters of taste, there are no unbreakable rules. Whatever works, works. Wassail! |
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20 Aug 15 - 10:37 AM (#3731801) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: McGrath of Harlow Sweet Baby James is actually a bit more complicated than that, but It's a great example of the fact that a great and memorable song doesn't have to be simple. There is a young cowboy, he lives on the range.(A) His horse and his cattle (B) and are his only companions.(C) He works in the saddle(B) and he sleeps in the canyons,(C) waiting for summer, his pastures to change.(A) And as the moon rises he sits by his fire,(D) thinking about women and glasses of beer.(E) And closing his eyes as the doggies retire(D), he sings out a song which is soft but it's clear(E) as if maybe someone could hear...(E) Goodnight you moon light ladies, rock-a-bye sweet baby James.(F) Deep greens and blues (G) are the colors I choose,(G) won't you let me go down in my dreams?(F) And rock-a-bye sweet baby James.(F) I'm not sure how important the rhyme scheme is to making this song so good, but it certainly doesn't hurt. (I trust this last GUEST isn't the same one from ten years ago up above...) |
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21 Aug 15 - 10:38 AM (#3732097) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: GUEST,henryp A great spot by Guest - and a great song too! Analysed a little more simply, it's ABBA CDCDD. There is a young cowboy, he lives on the range.(A) His horse and his cattle and are his only companions.(B) He works in the saddle and he sleeps in the canyons,(B) Waiting for summer his pastures to change.(A) And as the moon rises he sits by his fire,(C) Thinking about women and glasses of beer.(D) And closing his eyes as the dogies retire,(C) He sings out a song which is soft but it's clear,(D) As if maybe someone could hear.(D) Goodnight you moonlight ladies,(E) Rock-a-bye sweet baby James.(F) Deep greens and blues(G) Are the colors I choose,(G) Won't you let me go down in my dreams?(F) And rock-a-bye sweet baby James.(F) A dogie, dogy, or dogey is a cowboy's name for a stray or motherless calf. It's derivation is uncertain, but lots of colourful explanations exist. |
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21 Aug 15 - 08:18 PM (#3732240) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: McGrath of Harlow "Doggies" was a mispelling from the text I lifted to show the rhyme scheme, which I failed to amend. It would certainly give a different picture to anyone who took it the wrong way... I wonder if anyone has ever sung it with the canine pronunciation, in that or other songs. Get along you little doggies understood as an attempt to avert a dogfight... |
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22 Aug 15 - 04:04 AM (#3732301) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: Mr Red George Bernard Shaw said (many things but he said this) The Golden Rule is that there are no golden rules. However if you want to write "Country" (or Western) it won't "feel" Country if it doesn't have a few of the ingredients. Like "She dun left me" eg. Why was the song written? If it was itching to come out and that was the scratch then it serves its purpose. If it was to earn money then the criteria are defined by the genre. But then if all you want is a meal ticket try the wheeze from "How to be a Successful Songwriter" put forward by 50% of the contributors. Take a song, re-write the lyrics, and then re-write the tune. Neil Sedaka wrote one chapter, and his early songs looked like he did just that. Of course your skill as a wordsmith has to be paramount, and your tunesmithing needs to match for it to stand out, but don't knock it, it pays. |
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22 Aug 15 - 04:18 AM (#3732302) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: Mr Red Rhyme is like punctuation, it serves by allowing the listener to predict what is coming, thus giving more time (mindspace) to understand the message. If we get it smack on it looks like doggerel, if it is unusual but a good rhyme we applaud. But being a moving feast we don't have time to analyse it, we just like it or don't. For a rhyme to work best there has to be some temporal proximity, and a pattern so we don't have to waste mindspace on wondering where the rhyme was. Hence C&W usually uses simpler rhyme patterns. What I calls "mental wallpaper". GBS was right though, rules is rules, but you can make your own if you is clever enough. Now dare we introduce enjambed rhymes? Like Cole Porter eg. |
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22 Aug 15 - 09:33 AM (#3732360) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: Gda Music I`m not sure whether this 2 verse song is what you are looking for?. I wrote it along with a dozen other numbers back in 1952 when serving abroad in the RAF. A couple seemed to me to be OK tunes but this one always stood out as being more a non rhyming poem that could always bring a tear to my eyes!. THERE`S A SONG (Graham Johnstone) There`s a song That brings back memories to me Of days gone by A song of loves that have been broken And friendships long since past There`s a song That helps me reminisce Recalls to me when I was young That`s the song I`ve lived for And when I die it will live on. There`s a song That means so very much to me I can`t forget A song of loves that have been broken And friendships long since past There`s a song That takes me back some time Those yesteryears were long ago That`s the song I`ve lived for And when I die it will live on. GJ |
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29 Sep 19 - 09:26 AM (#4011041) Subject: RE: Seeking songs with ABBACDCD rhyme From: GUEST,BJW Sharon A are you still looking? |