BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage

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BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage

29 Jun 05 - 07:53 AM (#1512349)
Subject: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: bobad

The Canadian parliament passed a bill last night which will lead to the eventual passing into law of the same sex marriage act. Contrary to the bleating of various religious zealots this law is not anti religion or anti family, it is designed to give equal rights to a minority group under the Charter of Rights.

Contrast this with John Ashcroft ordering the covering up of statuary in the Great Hall of the justice department because of nudity.

I'm proud to live in a progressive country.

29 Jun 05 - 08:03 AM (#1512359)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,saulgoldie

Well, I beg to differ. Now that my neighbors have legalized it, I must question the strength of my own marriage. Somehow when the abusive marriage next door disolved (with the police intervening on several occasions), when the two friends I have who got married against the advice of everyone who knew them, I did not feel threatened. But now that two people who cannot together have children but who might still have a very loving and enduring bond may legally do it up North, my marriage is threatened to the core. I shit you not. You "progressives" can shove that "progress" where the sun don't shine. (Um, can I have some, please?)

29 Jun 05 - 08:07 AM (#1512360)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Blissfully Ignorant

I'm surprised they didn't legalize it years ago...

29 Jun 05 - 08:15 AM (#1512368)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: greg stephens

Should people be allowed to marry their siblings or their parents? A lot of liberal minded people who are all for gay marriages draw the line at extending the same rights to incest practioners.

29 Jun 05 - 08:26 AM (#1512376)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,justahoser

According to Stephen Harper, you can write your thank-you notes to the Bloc for that one. At the same time, you might ask when we can look forward to their next attempt to demolish this great nation? I have a few laws I'd like them to ok (for my benefit and the benefit of all Canadians) before they carry out their mandate.

And as a postscript, would you please find out if the two guys in business suits necking for the cameras on the national news last night made them feel warm and tingly all over too?

Please tell them I felt even more warm and tingly when I heard Dorothy Homolka is moving to Montreal to help her daughter "settle in" there in a few days. What an amazing, wonderful, progressive, brilliant country we live in!

Does me proud.

29 Jun 05 - 09:05 AM (#1512410)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Rapparee

The union of two people can be made lawful. "Marriage" on the other hand should be the provenance of Religion. In short, civil unions should be permitted under the law (and find that divorce is just as easy or difficult as the law makes it). Marriage, traditionally a "sacrament," should be regulated by the churches -- if your church choses to "bless" the civil union, fine; if it does not, fine too. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's...."

29 Jun 05 - 09:14 AM (#1512420)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: bobad

Rapaire

No church will be compelled to perform this "sacrament" if it doesn't accept same sex unions.

greg stephens

Incest is illegal, homosexuality is not.

29 Jun 05 - 12:02 PM (#1512516)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

jeez Rapaire, I didn't realize that I have not been married for for 30+ years, no one ever told us. I'll have to advise one of my little bastards not to consider herself and the prospective groom really married in two weeks time, despite the marriage ceremony and the vows they will be taking.

Then again, she may, after learning what has been said on this thread, regarding the unholiness of their union, find it preferable to think of herself too, as one of the civilly united instead.

29 Jun 05 - 12:27 PM (#1512532)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

Re Canada, you can have a religous ceremony but unless you sign the "government documents", you are not considered legally married.

29 Jun 05 - 12:29 PM (#1512535)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST

ditto in the US.

29 Jun 05 - 12:40 PM (#1512545)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Ebbie

I don't know if what Rap is saying is the same thing I believe or not, so let me spell out my position:

I think that every domestic partnership should be a civil ceremony, in other words, a union recognized and sanctioned by the state, with all the privileges, rights and responsibilities that the state allows and requires. If a couple wants to go further and have 'God' recognize and sanction their partnership, they can apply to the church, synagogue, or temple of their choice. At that point, if their c/s/t does not approve their merger, it can refuse, and the couple can apply to the next one.

That would get 'the church' out of the grips of the state and keep the state out of the church's clutches. It should be a concern of the church. I am surprised that this solution has not developed - nay, been demanded- over the years of transition from a religious state to a secular one.

I am not alone in this. It's not going to be changed next year but it makes sense that it will come.

Incest? Oh, puhleese. Siblings and parents can already live together and no one blinks an eye. I remember a time when unmarried couples - even heterosexual ones - could be prosecuted for cohabitation. And when checking into a motel together required fake ID.

Thanks for the laugh, Saul. You scared me at first.

29 Jun 05 - 01:16 PM (#1512574)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,Metchosin

Actually in British Columbia Ebbie, that exists, as I suppose it does in most areas of Canada and the US. In BC, you may be married by a Marriage Commissioner or a religious representative of your choice, as long as the religious reprsentative is registered with the British Columbia Vital Statistics Agency under the Marriage Act, which in effect grants he or she the power to represent the government as well, in this instance. I wonder if Brother Twelve was registered?

Whichever you choose, you still have to obtain a license from the state and register the marriage with the state. So in effect, all marriages, whether there has been a religous ceremony involved or not are civil unions. Same sex marriages have been legal in BC since 2003.....Oh dear, I feel threatened. LOL

29 Jun 05 - 01:39 PM (#1512598)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

Apparently there's at least one Canadian MP who agrees with you Ebbie ...

Conservative MLA Ted Morton has proposed the province withdraw from sanctioning all marriages, instead registering civil unions and leaving marriage to religious orders.

Well, let's hear it for Alberta! Sounds like a much more reasonable and intelligent solution to me!

This issue is far from being resolved in Canada anyway. One Liberal Cabinet Minister resigned last night rather than being forced to vote with his party against the desires of his constituents and his own personal conscience. And according to the CBC article at the link ...

Conservative Leader Stephen Harper says if his party forms the next government, the law will be revisited.

Harper made the promise one day after suggesting the adoption of the law lacked legitimacy because it relied on the support of the separatist Bloc Quebecois.

Harper said he believes Bloc MPs are the legitimate representatives of Quebec voters. But he argues most Canadians aren't buying it as a final decision since most federalist MPs are opposed to same-sex marriage.

Harper says a Conservative government would hold a free vote for all MPs on the matter, rather than forcing cabinet ministers to vote with the government.

The Senate still has to vote on the bill.

Well! I never thought I'd see the day but, hear hear Stephen Harper!

29 Jun 05 - 01:46 PM (#1512607)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

" "Marriage" on the other hand should be the provenance of Religion."

Bullshit... I am VERY anti-religion, and I'm happily married...

29 Jun 05 - 01:49 PM (#1512611)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

Guess we'll have to change a lot of things in the English language too.

Let not the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O no, it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken.
It is the star to every wand'ring bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.

William Shakespeare

Hmmmmm, now let see....

Let not the civil union of true minds.....

29 Jun 05 - 01:56 PM (#1512617)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

"Harper made the promise one day after suggesting the adoption of the law lacked legitimacy because it relied on the support of the separatist Bloc Quebecois."

Is thst the same Bloc Quebecois he sought the support of when he sought a non confidence vote against the Liberal government?

29 Jun 05 - 02:01 PM (#1512620)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

ooh, someone goofed on the William Shakespear quote I pasted, if I recall from my memorization in English class, the word "impediment" is correctly singular, not plural.

29 Jun 05 - 02:02 PM (#1512622)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: TheBigPinkLad

Strange bedfellows, eh?

29 Jun 05 - 02:09 PM (#1512630)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

Yeah.....I really want someone like Jim Jones sanctioning my marriage.

29 Jun 05 - 02:36 PM (#1512642)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

It was the "free vote" part of what Harper said that I really wanted to "hear hear" Metchosin. Perhaps what we need is another Charlottetown-type referendum, where ALL Canadians could finally vote for themselves on this most "personal" of issues.

And methinks, in all fairness, that such a referendum would best be funded by the gay lobby groups themselves - NOT with federal funds!

As to what Harper said about the Bloc, well ... why is it that in Canada we must tolerate an organization committed to destroying our country? Not only must we tolerate it, but we must even give it authority to make vitally important national decisions on behalf of the rest of us? Do you think the Bloc MP's care one IOTA about what's best for Canada, or Canadians?

What a farce!

29 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM (#1512643)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

" Do you think the Bloc MP's care one IOTA about what's best for Canada, or Canadians?"

I don't think they even have CLUE ONE aobut what is best for Canada... or themselves

But that's off topic...

29 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM (#1512644)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

Yeah and while we're at it lets hold some referendums about those damned Seiks and Indians too. Let's really put some minority rights to the test in this country and find out just how stinking fair the average Canadian is.

29 Jun 05 - 03:00 PM (#1512663)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Rapparee

Ebbie said what I was trying to say. It was early and I was tired.

There are two components to "marriage": the civil and the religious. If two people tie the knot in a civil ceremony it's CURRENTLY legal, even if it is NOT recognized by their religion (e.g., Catholicism). The union can be recognized by the religion later or not, as the couple sees fit.

Same thing with same sex marriage. The State should recognize it; the religions can do as they see fit.

29 Jun 05 - 03:04 PM (#1512669)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

And while I'm on a rant, why anyone who is gay would seek a religious sancition for their union I'm not sure, but what they choose in that baliwick and how they choose to live their lives is none of my fucking business. They have been granted equal rights under the Charter and they are bloody well entitled to it.

Did Carla Halmalka and Paul Bernardo had a lovely little church wedding?

29 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM (#1512671)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

And the law as just passed here recognizes that Rapaire.

29 Jun 05 - 03:07 PM (#1512674)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

"why anyone who is gay would seek a religious sancition for their union"

Cause even some gay people believe in "God"

29 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM (#1512676)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Ebbie

"I really want someone like Jim Jones sanctioning my marriage." Methosin

But if you were a follower of Jones, you would have wanted his sanctioning it. And that's the whole point, I think.

Can't we just get along? :)

29 Jun 05 - 03:20 PM (#1512685)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

But if we don't, where's "democracy"?

Oh, that's right, I forgot - in Canada "democracy" means we must not only tolerate but fund, support, and sacrifice any conflicting personal desires/principles/conscience as we endlessly prostrate ourselves before the "authority" of every "minority group" (read powerful-political-lobby-group-with-vested-interests) out there.

It means your "democratically elected" MP must vote the party line, regardless of his own opinions or the will of his/her constituents.

Or resign.

It means that Bills can be passed in Parliament aided and abetted by traitorous organizations; even Bills that blatantly disregard the stated desires of the majority of Canadians!

Gads I'm gettin myself all upset here. And what for?

Nothing. Please pardon me. As a Canadian, I count for diddley-squat anyway. I'm not Sikh, I'm not Indian, I'm not gay, I'm not even a Quebecer ... but hey! I DO have this lovely old Maple in my front yard that's calling me to sit under it right now, count my blessing and let it allllll goooooo ....

29 Jun 05 - 03:28 PM (#1512688)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: George Papavgeris

I don't see the problem. Me and the wife have been having the same sex for years and we're happily married...

Sorry - facetious, I know. Just trying to lighten the discussion up a bit.

29 Jun 05 - 03:30 PM (#1512690)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: gnu

"Do you think the Bloc MP's care one IOTA about what's best for Canada, or Canadians?"

Whoa up. Perhaps a little more attention to Gilles' words and less to what you "think" he, and the PQ, stand for. Now, I am NOT going to get into a pissing contest here, BUT, some of the PQ are a lot more CANADIAN than some Canadians. That's right. And, they have the balls to say to the Feds and Big Business, Fuck You, you ain't gonna sell me down the river. Too hard line? Not by me.

When les guys, who represent one fucking third (!) of the voters in this country stand up and say WTF?, someone had better listen. If that "someone" wants Canada to be Canada, perhaps they should listen instead of baying at the moon. Together we stand, divided we get sold down the river.... and there's a few buyers looking things over as we post.

29 Jun 05 - 03:31 PM (#1512691)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

I'm not sure it is the whole point Ebbie, it seems to me that some are arguing that the word "marriage" can only be used in a religious sense and that some believe they have the "God" given right to have dominion over others.

29 Jun 05 - 03:40 PM (#1512695)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: RichM

One hundred years ago, chinese people were not allowed to vote in Canada, nor were native amerindians. Now All races are considered as legal persons.
In 1931, the British House of Lords determined, in an appeal of a prior Canadian Supreme Court rejection of women as "persons" that women are indeed, legal persons and equal to men in law.

And now homosexuals are fully legal persons, that have the right to marry.
My advice to those who disagree: Do you really want to be categorized along with racists and other bigots?

29 Jun 05 - 03:44 PM (#1512696)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

Lobby group, my ass *daylia*, all this group of "citizens" wanted was to bring Canadian law in line with what is already granted to them by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and if my MP can't be held to stand up for all rights granted to all citizens under the Charter, this is a very sad country indeed.

29 Jun 05 - 03:51 PM (#1512700)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

"some of the PQ are a lot more CANADIAN than some Canadians"

Bullshit

29 Jun 05 - 03:54 PM (#1512702)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

Lets also not forget that first nations people weren't granted the "right to vote" in this so called enlightened country until 1960.

It requires a bit more guts to stand up for minority rights in Parliament than it does for the average bigoted citizen to stuff a no vote in a secret referendum box.

29 Jun 05 - 03:54 PM (#1512703)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Rapparee

My comments, by the way, apply to all countries -- not just Canada (a country I both like and respect very much).

29 Jun 05 - 04:00 PM (#1512706)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

Well, that does make sense Metchosin. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that Canada, as "happy" and "gay" as it may or may not be, is any kind of "democracy".

And really, what does it matter whether gays "civilly unite" or "marry"? 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. They certainly are entitled to any and all of the "rights and freedoms" as any other Canadian (supposedly) enjoys.

By choosing to use the words "civil union" however, the same respect, tolerance, and "democratic freedoms and rights" enjoyed by homosexuals could also be enjoyed by those Canadians who prefer the word "marriage" to continue to mean the legal union of a man and a woman.

God or not.

29 Jun 05 - 04:09 PM (#1512713)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: TheBigPinkLad

Just don't make the mistake of thinking that Canada, as "happy" and "gay" as it may or may not be, is any kind of "democracy".

Of course it's a democracy, *daylia*. Do you really need that explaining or are you trying to make the point that your personal view is not solicited on everything covered in Hansard?

29 Jun 05 - 04:09 PM (#1512714)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

sorry Ebbie, but I haven't posted much of what has been on my mind and pissed me off since Mousethief accused me of polluting the Puget Sound or when gargoyle started going after kat. Its a momentary lapse and I promise I'll crawl back into my cave again. LOL..... And its a Canadian thread, eh? I still love them all dearly, even though I might disagree at times.

29 Jun 05 - 04:22 PM (#1512721)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

Just don't make the mistake of thinking that Canada, as "happy" and
"gay" as it may or may not be, is any kind of "democracy".

I don't *daylia*, but I'm not willing to "throw the baby out with the bath water", either. But first and foremost, I believe the quality of any democracy should be judged upon how well it protects and treats it's minorities.

29 Jun 05 - 04:28 PM (#1512731)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

Metchosin, if you need something to read while you're hiding in that cave of yours ;~) how's a little info bout Egale Canada ?

Just one example of the "groups of citizens" (but please NOT to be referred to as a wealthy-and-powerful-political-lobby-group-with-vested-interests) who made yesterday's Parliamentary "achievement" possible.

BPL, this is no doubt a really dumb question but what's Hansard?

29 Jun 05 - 04:38 PM (#1512737)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Ebbie

Metchosin, I think you and I are on the same page- unless I misunderstand you.

I do not understand you, however,daylia. It escapes me to understand in what way any marriage is threatened by another's union. Does someone else's love imperil your own?

I happen not to be lesbian (I say 'happen', because I tend to believe that in most cases it is an inborn drive) but there is no homosexual person in this world who is a threat to me - unless he or she comes at me with an instrument of destruction or harm. Mentally, emotionally, politically and socially, they are you and me.

(Amd yes. I do remember what you have written on the subject before. It's just that I do not in most any way that I can think of agree with you. Time to grow up already. And that's what I think of that.)

I'm also curious as to why you consider Canada "not any kind of democracy". Don't you vote? Are you not able to change your representative political parties?

29 Jun 05 - 04:49 PM (#1512742)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

all old news *daylia*.

By the way, Hansard is the written transcript of what is said in parliament.

29 Jun 05 - 04:51 PM (#1512744)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: TheBigPinkLad

Hansard is the daily (literal) report of everything that is said in the House.

(no such thing as a dumb question, *daylia* -- just dumb answers ;o)

29 Jun 05 - 05:04 PM (#1512753)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

Ebbie, I rather doubt you remember what I've written before on this subject! You don't even seem to remember what I've said in this one! Where, pray tell, did I say that "marriage" is in any way "threatened by another's union"?

What I did say was ... By choosing to use the words "civil union" however, the same respect, tolerance, and "democratic freedoms and rights" enjoyed by homosexuals could also be enjoyed by those Canadians who prefer the word "marriage" to continue to mean the legal union of a man and a woman.

I do hope you see the difference!

According to Websters:

"Democracy: a: government by the people, especially rule of the majority; b: a gov't in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections..."

On paper, yes, but in practice? HA! Canada is no "democracy", nor has it ever been!! THe recent Parliamentary goings-on discussed in this thread are only the most recent evidence of that! As to your other questions -

Do I vote?

Well, why do you want to know???

Can I change my representative political parties?

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Can you "change" your Republicans or Democrats?

29 Jun 05 - 05:11 PM (#1512760)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: gnu

CH.... "Bullshit"??? Are you a Canuck?

29 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM (#1512767)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

And thanks BPL and Metchosin, for enlightening me about Hansard. If that's considered a "primer" on democracy .... EGADS!!!!!

29 Jun 05 - 05:19 PM (#1512770)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST

It is true, that Canada will permit same sex marriages, however it is against the wishes of the majority of canadians. at least 63 to 65% of canadians are opposed to it. This will be an election issue in a few years and the Liberals will lose many seats, even those liberals strong enough to vote against it. I have never voted conservative in my life but I will the next time around, and there are 7 votes if my immediate family and we all feel the same way. I am downright disgusted with it. I have no problem with a civil union, I have no problem with homesexuals being guaranteed all rights under the constitutions etc, but there is no was in hell that the union of two men can be equated with the union of a man and woman.

Having homeosexual tendencies is not illegal but acting on them is SODOMY, and SODOMY IS ILLEGAL IN CANADA.

I do not see this as progressive, in fact it is the oopposite, back to Sodom and Gomorrrah. This was a clear case of politicians not having the guts to go against the opinion of a percentage of the public. Gutless hypocrites all of them. I am totally ashamed to be canadian today.

29 Jun 05 - 05:22 PM (#1512771)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,Jimmy. C

Sorry,

the last post was from me.

29 Jun 05 - 05:24 PM (#1512772)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

"no was in hell that the union of two men can be equated with the union of a man and woman"
Only if yer a biggoted jerk...

"SODOMY IS ILLEGAL IN CANADA"
Ya... lets see THAT enforced... as if...

"Wouldn't know a good blow-job if it snuck up on ya and jammed a finger up yer ass... "
Which I think is a quote from McLean and McLean...

:-P

29 Jun 05 - 05:40 PM (#1512782)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: gnu

Sodomy is not illegal in Canada. Read the law before you run off at the mouth. As a matter of fact, read the thread. And, don't try to force your warped views down my throat. Because, I have the laws of a free land on my side. You should thank your God that you live in a land which allows perverted fucks like you to vote. Go ahead, vote Stevie in... and see if he'll help you out if you or your loved ones get sick, say, from 'aids'.

Oh yeah... I may as well say it... not gay. Just happy to live in a free land.

29 Jun 05 - 05:45 PM (#1512790)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: gnu

CH.... I am sorry for my terse comment, but, sweet sufferin Lard Jaysus, Gilles speaks of Canuck values in far more meaningful terms than do any of the other assholes.

29 Jun 05 - 05:54 PM (#1512796)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

OK, if marriage only means a union between a man and woman, where did Shakespeare get off mentioning a marriage of two minds without referring to the gender of the brains involved. And the last time I did an elecrical splice, I married the two wires first and as far as I could ascertain, neither of them had any specific gender, except that they seemed to like each other and I'm not sure if a supreme being gave it's blessing. But there sure would have been some uncomfortable ramifications if I hadn't taken out a permit first.

I guess whether you are legally married or not could depend upon whether or not you were spliced, soldered and taped or joined together with a marr connector.

Re: lobbyists, yeah a shame that some are forced to go there, although others might turn a blind eye to that tactic, if it was the Sierra Club, a poverty group or battered women. That some groups take that route in order to get heard is more a reflection upon the current state of government and society, than upon the views the specific lobby groups represent.

29 Jun 05 - 06:13 PM (#1512806)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: JohnInKansas

To limit the state license to being applicable ONLY to "holy matrimony" grants the state the authority to regulate a religious sacrament. In the US governments are prohibited from doing that by the FIRST Amendment to the US Constitution.

The reason that it is the First Amendment is that the original 13 states were unanimously agreed on the need for that limitation. At least six of the original states included in their ratification documents the condition that their ratification of the original Constitution was contingent on the immediate creation and adoption of an amendment prohibiting the establishment of any official religion and/or of any government regulation of religious belief or practice.

No government authority has ever, in the US, had the power to regulate, impose, restrict, or define any religious rite or observance.

Government agencies have no authority to do ANYTHING other than by CIVIL LAW. No government in the United States has EVER had the authority to "license" any practice of religious doctrine except to the extent that such practices may conflict with CIVIL LAW.

Some potential rituals have been found to be harmful and in violation of CIVIL law. Rituals of human sacrifice, polygamy, and incestuous marriages are codified as violations of CIVIL law in most places in the US. There are persuasive(?) reasons why these prohibited practices cause harm to the community, and why they fall within the authority of CIVIL regulation.

Those who demand that the CIVIL law, via the civil marriage license, must "protect" their rituals fail to see that that "protection" comes at the price of ceding to civil authority the power to REGULATE their rituals and sacraments. They assume that "their" rituals will agree with any future restrictions, but fail to see that other rituals and sacraments might prevail.

Those who assume that only their own sacraments must be enforced are called BIGOTS.

Those who advocate the overthrow of long established Constitutional principles are, if not TRAITORS, at the least guilty of SEDITION.

Those whose unnatural conviction that the private sex that they can only imagine someone might have is justification for depriving those people of the same civil rights enjoyed by the rest of the people are properly and appropriately called PERVERTS.

John

29 Jun 05 - 06:27 PM (#1512813)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Ebbie

Hear, hear, John.

daylia, if I misunderstood you, I apologize. I suppose I reacted more to what you have said in the past about homosexuality than to anything you said in this thread.

The US is also not a democracy- it is a republic with some democratic features and precedents.

My phrasing may have been unfortunate. I actually meant: "Do Canadians vote? If so, can't Canadian voters replace one political party with another?"

29 Jun 05 - 07:04 PM (#1512831)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: freda underhill

back to comments made earlier in the thread - i tried to say this last night but the cat froze...

legalised homosexual unions are about the public and legal recognition of rights between consenting adults.

incest by its nature is about an adult coercing a child into become a vehicle for the adult's sexual fulfilment. whether its incest (within a family) or happening between unrelated people, adult abuse of a child is always abuse. It happens secretly and with threats.

there is no comparison of this situation with the rights of consenting adults, whatever their sexual preference is.

freda (off to work)

29 Jun 05 - 07:17 PM (#1512842)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

But first and foremost, I believe the quality of any democracy should be judged upon how well it protects and treats it's minorities.

Ditto. What bothers me is not the bill itself or the fact that it was passed. It's the manner in which it was passed - ie in direct violation of the fundamental principles of democracy (see Webster's definition above, not Hansard's). This may sound hopelessly idealistic, but I think it's short-sighted and most unwise to sacrifice those principles, for the sake of expedience, under any circumstances. Even if what you want to expediate is the legitimate agenda(s) of any political lobby / "group of citizens".

29 Jun 05 - 07:26 PM (#1512849)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

Thanks Ebbie. That's ok. And yes I suppose we do "replace" one political party with another here in Canada, but in the end it's the same as in the States. The "Big Two" rule the roost, and when all's said and done there's really no difference between them.

Except, I suppose, it's the Big Three now. Hey, maybe the Bloc is to be commended for being so unique, at least!

29 Jun 05 - 08:17 PM (#1512874)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

*daylia*, why should an elected government not have the right to pass any law that brings it into line with its own the Charter of Rights?

If your bone of contention is the manner in which the Canadian system operates in a parlimentary vote, there is always the American system or variations there of.

In Canada, if a party member does not wish to follow the dictates or platform of the majority of his/or her elected political party, they may always leave the Party and sit as an independant in Parliament. It may be a bit convoluted but it doesn't sidestep democracy. You still have your vote, represent those who sent you there and you may occupy your seat until such time as you are voted out by your constituents. You don't like something as an MP, put your money where your mouth is.

You don't like lobbyists? Close the golf courses.

29 Jun 05 - 08:49 PM (#1512906)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

LOL! And good points all, Metchosin. Strangely enough, that "bone of contention" seems to have softened up a bit ;~) thanks!

29 Jun 05 - 09:17 PM (#1512922)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

See! what did I say Ebbie? We can argue like hell and punctuate it with sometimes colouful language, but there's always room for second sober thought and we can still like each other, I hope. This is still a damned fine country with some damned fine people, despite our differences and the shortcomings of some of our political institutions. I'm not going to worry about who my neighbour might marry.....unless I find out that her name is Carla.

29 Jun 05 - 10:02 PM (#1512941)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: JohnInKansas

freda -

A minor quibble:

incest by its nature is about an adult coercing a child

In most US jusrisdictions, and I would assume the same in Canada, that's treated under laws on statutory rape or child molestation. Although it does seem more nasty when there's a familial relationship, and in such cases "incest" may be an included offense, it's usually prosecuted largely without regard to the relationship. The state has the civil right and obligation to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

Incest is sexual relations between persons who are related "by blood," and does not depend on the ages of the participants. The "grounds" for it's prohibition are usually held to be that it favors the expression of recessive genes and produces "unhealthy children" who are a burden on society. In the context of this thread, most US states prohibit the civil marriage of first cousins or closer, and a few extend the ban to second cousins or even further.

Some might argue that the history of "close marriages" in European royalty in recent centuries shows that this ban is unneeded. Others might argue that the results of "inbreeding" of royalty proves that the ban is a good thing. That's probably not a subject to be argued here at this time.

John

29 Jun 05 - 11:04 PM (#1512973)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Jimmy C

Clinton,

With all due respect - Sodomy is illegal in Canada. People are charged with it quite often. Check out the dictionary for the definition of sodomy and check out what equality means also.

And as far as a civil union verses a marriage is concerned, the only way for equality to work is for both parties to be equal. That is two males is equal to two males and no matter how much you may want things to be two males will never be equal to one male and and one female. I am not a bigot, I am not homophobic, but I do have an opinion and to have equality under the law the all things must be equal and a homosexual relationship is not and never will be equal to a relationship between an man and a woman, simply because THEY ARE NOT EQUAL>

29 Jun 05 - 11:47 PM (#1512992)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

Jimmy C., The Government of Canada decriminalized homosexual behavior in this country in 1969. Attorney General of the time, Pierre Trudeau, said at the time, "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation."

Now if one has a penchant for performing certain sexual acts in a public place, I'm sure the law regarding gross indecencey would apply, no matter what gender.

You may not consider yourself a bigot, but I think you might be a little short on your knowledge of history re: two males not being equal to one male and one female. That certainly wasn't the case prior to the 1930's. Beforeefore good old Nelly McClung, and the lobbying of a lot of enlightened men and women, females weren't even given the status of a person in this country.

So I will partially agree with you guest JimmyC, at one time, two males were not equal in the the eyes of the law in Canada, especially if they were WASPs, to one male and one female, they had far more status. Thank God times have changed, eh?

29 Jun 05 - 11:51 PM (#1512994)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

Correction, "that certainly was the case prior to 1930"

29 Jun 05 - 11:58 PM (#1513002)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin

Then again JimmyC perhaps you were speaking of equal weight.....and come to think of it, two men usually weigh more than one man and one woman, so no they are not generally equal.

30 Jun 05 - 03:00 AM (#1513051)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2

Another reason to like and respect Canada and Canadians. They helped save our bacon in two world wars and they have the common sense to extend justice to minority groups. Lets hope we (in Britain) soon follow suit.

30 Jun 05 - 08:52 AM (#1513247)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Rapparee

I read that Spain has today also legalized these unions.

30 Jun 05 - 10:42 AM (#1513309)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,freda, from the back door

Spanish parliament passes gay marriage bill; Last Updated Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:29:00 EDT ; CBC News

Just two days after Canadian members of Parliament passed same-sex marriage legislation, Spanish lawmakers have voted to allow gays and lesbians to legally marry.

The vote in the 350-seat Congress of Deputies was 187 in favour, 147 against and four abstentions. The Conservative-dominated Senate had rejected the bill. But it is an advisory board and final say rests with the Congress. The law would make Spain only the fourth country in the world to officially recognize same-sex marriage. The Netherlands and Belgium approved same-sex marriages in 2000 and 2003.

"We were not the first, but I am sure we will not be the last," Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero told the chamber. "After us will come many other countries, driven, ladies and gentlemen, by two unstoppable forces: freedom and equality."

Zapatero's Socialist government proposed the legislation shortly after winning the 2004 elections. Spanish gay couples can get married as soon as the law is published in the official government registry, which could come as early as Friday, or within two weeks at the latest, the parliament's press office said.

The legislation has been opposed by Conservative legislators and the Roman Catholic Church. In a rare step, the church endorsed a rally in which hundreds of thousands marched through Madrid in opposition to the bill. Some 20 bishops took part in the June 18 rally.

30 Jun 05 - 11:04 AM (#1513318)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,Clint-On of Hamm-Ond

"Sodomy is illegal in Canada. People are charged with it quite often."

Well, I move in a crowd that has PLENTY of "Sodomites" and not a single one of us has ever been charged... so...

Wanna source some evidence for your claim? Cause I think it's bullflop....

"freda, from the back door"
Perhaps a poor choice of user-handles given the subject matter!
:-P
Heh

30 Jun 05 - 11:06 AM (#1513320)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST

Is sodomy equally disgusting to homophobes when it's practised in a heterosexual relationship? Just curious...

30 Jun 05 - 11:43 AM (#1513333)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,C-of-H

Who said it's disgusting? The millions of people who buy 'Seymore Butts' DVDs say differently...

Who said anything done between two loving individuals, in the comfort of their own bedroom, sofa, shower-stall or sleeping-bag is even REMOTELY your business, let alone subject matter fit for your 'judgement'???

30 Jun 05 - 12:07 PM (#1513344)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST

Sorry, CH, maybe i didn't make myself clear.

I didn't say it was disgusting. It's not something i'm into personally, like, but whatever rocks your boat... and, no, what other people get up to in bed (or indeed anywhere else) is none of my business. It's just that a lot of homophobic people rave on about how sodomy is disgusting when it's two men doing it. Then they get off watching porn with a man and a woman doing it... same with lesbian porn. Seems it's ok to be gay if you're blonde, female, and doing it in front of a camera to fuel your smack habit. Just seems like a bit of a double standard...

30 Jun 05 - 12:38 PM (#1513350)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,C-Of-H

A BIT?!?!

Is there, or has there ever been, any other kind of standard???

LOL

"It's just that a lot of homophobic people rave on"
Give an idiot enough rope and he'll evenutally hang himself... Which if you ask me, is doing the rest of us a huge favour...

Tangentally, I resist the assertion that all porn stars are drug addicts... Some very well are, and they aughta have help... but some folks just like to f#ck in front of a camera... and power to 'em says I!
:-)

30 Jun 05 - 12:42 PM (#1513352)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST

"but some folks just like to f#ck in front of a camera"

I bet the cameraman likes it too...

30 Jun 05 - 03:38 PM (#1513407)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,gnu

OK. We agree that those who don't agree don't have a clue, even though it's written in black and white and available for all to read.

Now that homos have the right to civil union, could ye homo lads and lassies knock off the fucking parades? It is very, VERY fucking BEYOND rude. Get some manners and some decorum ya bunch a flamers! Geeeeeeze!!! We met you more than half way so don't be so half-assed. You get respect from us... we expect some respect.

Am I wrong here?

30 Jun 05 - 03:45 PM (#1513409)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,C-On-to-the-H-On

Ya... yer wrong Gnu.... Given that every other day of the year is an unspoken, unofficial "Straight Pride Parade"... One frigg'n day a year is NOT too much to give 'em...

30 Jun 05 - 04:18 PM (#1513419)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,gnu

We do not parade... that's the difference. No respect.... wait, WTF am I doing? Responding to a troll!!! Geeze... I am outta this closet. Y'all can muddle in the dark... just don't wave yer business in my face.

30 Jun 05 - 04:25 PM (#1513423)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,C-On-to-the-H-On

"We do not parade..."

Oh yes we do... Every magazine... nearly every TV show... every radio station... everything 'mainstream' day in day out... straight.. stright... straight...

30 Jun 05 - 05:35 PM (#1513447)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,gnu

Geeze... you're right. Almost as if it was 'accepted' as normal behaviour or something. Not PC, but correct.

30 Jun 05 - 08:10 PM (#1513483)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST

"...it is against the wishes of the majority of canadians. at least 63 to 65% of canadians are opposed to it." But in the same post: "This was a clear case of politicians not having the guts to go against the opinion of a percentage of the public."

The logic of that one escapes me. Voting for something that isn't too popular is a mark of lack of guts?

Seems to me a lot of fuss over a linguistic nicety - whether "civil union" means the same as "marital union". I can't really see why anyone should get exercised about it either way.

When I was a kid I remember we used sometimes to have sandwiches made of biscuit between slices of bread, and it was called "matrimony". It never occurred to us to ask whether the biscuits and the bread were boys or girls.

As the actress Mrs Patrick Campbell famously put it a century ago "I don't care what they do, so long as they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses."

30 Jun 05 - 09:02 PM (#1513489)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,Blissfully Ignorant

Oh, who cares who parades what. I think i'm going to become positively pro-gay. I'm gonna go hand out leaflets to schoolkids. Fuck it, the world is over-populated as it is... I'm becoming a homophile; if nothing else, it'l piss off all those closed minded homophobic bastards who are far to concerned about other peoples sex lives to be considered healthy...

01 Jul 05 - 10:43 AM (#1513656)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,karlykurls

Tangentally, I resist the assertion that all porn stars are drug addicts... Some very well are, and they aughta have help... but some folks just like to f#ck in front of a camera... and power to 'em says I!

Here's one of our personal home video transcripts as a special treat just for you then, Guest COttHO. Enjoy!

Paul and I and alot of people like us owe a big debt of gratitude the porn industry. Taught us everything we needed we know, kept us primed and motivated and creatively inspired from our earliest years on .... hey, come to think of it, we owe just about everything we've become to the sex trade industry!

And we want you to know how much we appreciate your continuing support and encouragement. Keep it up! (Literally and figuratively).

01 Jul 05 - 10:55 AM (#1513670)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: harpgirl

Viva Zapatero! Freedom and equality rule!!!!!

01 Jul 05 - 10:57 AM (#1513671)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: harpgirl

Now if I could just find a way to reap the benefits married people will have....while still staying single!

01 Jul 05 - 11:59 AM (#1513735)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

Blaming the adult entertainment industry for the actions of a couple of sick evil wackos is asinine...

Guest, karlykurls... you are the weakest link... goodbye

01 Jul 05 - 12:55 PM (#1513782)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

"Adult entertainment industry"?

"ADULT"???

If the irony of that phrase was a little less toxic, I'd be ROTFLMAO!

Get informed, get a grip, and maybe you'll even grow up a little in the process.

01 Jul 05 - 12:59 PM (#1513789)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Grab

to have equality under the law the all things must be equal

Yup. Two people have to love each other, and commit to spending the rest of their lives together, "forsaking all others till death do us part" (or that's the theory anyway). Sounds like equality to me.

Do I hear the cry, "But gay couples can't have children!"? I knew I did. :-) But a large number of male/female couples are also unable to have children for various biological reasons. An even larger number *choose* not to have children. But their marriages aren't viewed as invalid, just bcos they're not producing kids.

If anyone can give a reason why gay people shouldn't get married that doesn't either (a) view marriage solely as a means of producing children, or (b) quote some "holy" book as justification, I'm quite prepared to change my mind about this. JimmyC, feel up to the challenge?

Graham.

01 Jul 05 - 01:24 PM (#1513815)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

Get informed? I'll wager you know 2 things about the adult entertainment industry... One is fuck... and the other is all...

YOU get informed and try growing up a little...

You probable wouldn't know a good reverse pile-driver if it danced up in front of you singing "Reverse Pile-Drivers Are Here Again!"... So try putting some information into your head before you spout off, provided that you can get it back out of your backside...

"give a reason why gay people shouldn't get married that doesn't..."
Such reasons you're looking for don't exist Graham... The two you excluded are the only two they have to go on... It's a mark of how ignorant such people are, that they continue to cling to them long after such arguments have done their Burning-Spitfire impressions, into the ground

01 Jul 05 - 02:33 PM (#1513888)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

Applied Research Forum, National Electronic Network on Violence Against Women: Pornography and Sexual Violence, Robert Jensen

...There are limits to what research can tell us about the complex interactions of mass media and human behavior. But from both laboratory research and the narratives of men and women, it is not controversial to argue that pornography can: (1) be an important factor in shaping a male-dominant view of sexuality; (2) be used to initiate victims and break down their resistance to unwanted sexual activity; (3) contribute to a user's difficulty in separating sexual fantasy and reality; and (4) provide a training manual for abusers.

These conclusions provide support for the feminist critique of pornography that emerged in the 1970s and '80s, which highlighted pornography's harms to the women and children: (1) used in the production of pornography; (2) who have pornography forced on them; (3) who are sexually assaulted by men who use pornography; and (4) living in a culture in which pornography reinforces and sexualizes women's subordinate status.

People who raise critical questions about pornography and the sex industry often are accused of being prudish, anti-sex, or repressive, but just the opposite is true. Such questions are crucial not only to the struggle to end sexual and domestic violence, but also to the task of building a healthy sexual culture. Activists in the anti-violence and anti-pornography movements have been at the forefront of that task.

Like I said, Clinton - get informed, get a grip, and maybe you'll even grow up a little in the process. If you'd like to discuss this further, let's exchange PMs.

Sorry bout the drift, folks.

01 Jul 05 - 03:06 PM (#1513916)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

Oh I -SO- don't want a single PM from an ignoranus like you...

"the feminist critique of pornography that emerged in the 1970s and '80s"

Ancient frigg'n history! That demonizing of the porno industry has been universally shot down as excessive, over-reactionary, and out right lies... Even the so called 'Feminazis' went soft on this, cause they were quite frankly way out to sea... that's why you can't find anything reputable, less than 20+ years old to quote, unless they're quoting the same old garbage...

It's akin to people who claim that rap is misogynist.. well, you know what... the WOMEN who listen to it and enjoy it and sing it don't give a f-ck... Porno sales have never been higher or more socially accepted... 'sex shops' are now big open shiny stores, and they are frequented most by young and middle-aged couples with disposable income who are looking to 'spice things up' a little...

"harms to the women and children: (1) used in the production of pornography"
Not ALL women who make porno are harmed (I'd even hazard to say the whopping MAJORITY are NEVER harmed... I'll bet more people get hurt in their own bath tubs) and there are already laws against that and child porn... that's assault... it's not adult entertainment... There's a big difference.. and I'm in NO way condoning kiddie porn... d'uh...

"2) who have pornography forced on them"
Forced? Oh please... Ya don't like it, turn it off...

"(3) who are sexually assaulted by men who use pornography"
A man who is a rapist is going to rape, porn or no... A gun doesn't make a man a murderer does it? Men who rape often eat pizza before they rape... do you want to ban Pizza as well?

"(4) living in a culture in which pornography reinforces and sexualizes women's subordinate status"
Only people who know NOTHING about the industry would say that... On any reputable porno set, the WOMEN are the ones IN control! Their list of do's and don'ts lists come first (Especially before anyone else does :-P ) THEY get paid 3, 4, 5 times what the men stars get paid... (Wanna talk about objectification?? Men in porno are little more than props... invent a dildo that can do a convincing money shot, and you'll put them ALL out of work!) Cause that's industry standard, and any woman who finds herself ON a set where such isn't the case never has to go back, and can very easily RUIN that 'studio' and everyone working for it...

Are there Dark Underground Porno studios filming snuff and kiddie films? abso'frigg'nlootly... and they're an abomination... but they have NOTHING to do with the above board, legit, adult entertainment industry... as a matter of fact, it's the legit. industry that often fights hardest against the 'evil'... And they'd get more done if they didn't have to fight bints like you at the same time...

But all this has NOTHING to do with Gay Marriage, except in that I'd imagine a similar percentage of gay couples like to watch dirty movies together as so called 'straight' couples...

Happy Canada day! Rent yerself a porn, have a few drinks and get it on with someone ya love to celebrate! Ya might even have some fun...

01 Jul 05 - 03:59 PM (#1513958)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*

You don't want a single PM from an ignoramus like me? :~D Well, sorry, Your Lowness, you just got one!

I've often seen your foul, abusive mouth; your misinformend, misguided, toxic, callous and oh-so-very-macho attitudes toward the subject at hand ... not to mention that trademark lack of even the most elementary of the social graces ... as a disgrace and a slur on every Canadian on the Cat!

BUt only when I forget just how unimportant and insignificant you ... and I ... and our opinions, really are.

Besides, you did help me pick out a really BEAUTIFUL Seagull guitar here once, that I enjoy so much every day, so ... I'm off to start me up some REAL fireworks! And you have yourself a great Canada Day.

01 Jul 05 - 04:10 PM (#1513965)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

"your misinformend(sic.) attitudes"
I'm not the one who when presented with evidence I couldn't refute, challenges I couldn't meet, had to abandon the subject at hand and resort to personal attacks on the apparent source of that evidence, those challenges... I may have CHOSEN to attack you WHILE I dismissed your blatherskite, but that's a whole different beast...

"oh-so-very-macho attitudes"
Not knowing what a mincing little fairy I am in real life...

"social graces "
Are for those who deserve them... I see no reason to waste them on you...

I've never seen anyone be more of a wimp over a PM than they were in their post of the same subject.. ya musta PMed me first, and had time for the old wheels to turn eh...

01 Jul 05 - 04:12 PM (#1513971)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Donuel

Judges do it
Priest's do it

Even Captains of big ships do it

marrying 2 people in love.

What about an American ship captain in Canadian waters doing same sex marriages?

02 Jul 05 - 02:45 PM (#1514320)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

" What about an American ship captain in Canadian waters doing same sex marriages?"

THAT goes against everything the Bible teaches, and I WON'T stand for it!

03 Jul 05 - 12:52 AM (#1514336)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: JennyO

;-)

03 Jul 05 - 12:53 PM (#1514470)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: LilyFestre

Two thumbs up for both Canada and Spain!!!! It's about time and it's too bad that it isn't happening here YET!!!

Gnu said something about not having the Gay Pride Parades. I think that is just plain wrong. I've been to several Gay Pride Parades and absolutely LOVE THEM! It is a wonderful time for everybody and it's SO NICE to see loving people holding hands and being tender with one another...regardless of gender. It's a shame that two men or two women can't walk down the street holding the hand of their loved one for fear of being attacked or for fear of losing their job, or for fear of ridicule. Clinton is right, straight folks have this freedome every single day...if you personally don't want to see it, don't look....don't go to the parades but certainly don't stand in the way of people loving one another.

Michelle

03 Jul 05 - 01:13 PM (#1514491)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Amos

I always thought the line was "let me not...admit impediment". But the Oxford edition on the web says:

LET me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O, no! it is an ever-fixed mark,                 5
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love 's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come;         10
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error, and upon me prov'd,
I never writ, nor no man ever lov'd.

03 Jul 05 - 01:20 PM (#1514501)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: McGrath of Harlow

Leaving aside issues about gayness and whatever, anysociety where it is seen as deviant for any two human beings to hold hands in public is a pretty sick and weird society.

03 Jul 05 - 02:03 PM (#1514534)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,Canadian

Canada is the third country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage, FYI.

03 Jul 05 - 02:09 PM (#1514538)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Leadfingers

Where's El Ted ? I seem to have another 100th !

03 Jul 05 - 02:10 PM (#1514539)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Leadfingers

What happened there ? It definately showed 99 when I posted !

03 Jul 05 - 02:22 PM (#1514547)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST

Leaving aside issues about gayness and whatever, anysociety where it is seen as deviant for any two human beings to hold hands in public is a pretty sick and weird society.

With those words, McGrath of Harlow has just condemned almost every Islamic country in the world.

Just being suspected of being gay in places like the Palestinian west bank, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, etc. is enough to get you killed in many of those places; often with total impunity to the killers.

About the only places in the Middle East where gays can get away with holding hands are in *parts* of Israel like Tel Aviv and Haifa. I wouldn't try it though in areas of Israel where the religious dominate (although it's much less likely that you'll be killed or that the killers will not be punished than in the Islamic countries).

03 Jul 05 - 04:05 PM (#1514616)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

"McGrath of Harlow has just condemned almost every Islamic country in the world."

I'll happily join him in that condemnation...

03 Jul 05 - 04:16 PM (#1514624)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Ebbie

"Leaving aside issues about gayness and whatever, anysociety where it is seen as deviant for any two human beings to hold hands in public is a pretty sick and weird society." McGrath

"Just being suspected of being gay in places like the Palestinian west bank, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, etc. is enough to get you killed in many of those places; often with total impunity to the killers." Guest

There's something wrong with your evaluation, Guest. What about the ubiquitous photos of the bush and Saudi Arabia's crown prince walking around holding hands? I understand that it is meant as a sign of closeness and respect.

03 Jul 05 - 05:20 PM (#1514662)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: dianavan

Thats right, gnu. Men holding hands and kissing, too, I might add is a part of Middle Eastern societal norms.

I will also add that when the Iranian mother of my daughter's boyfriend came for a visit, my daughter spent the night with them in a hotel room. I protested saying it wasn't appropriate. The boyfriend said that sleeping arrangements were no big deal in Iranian homes. He said that at the end of a party (if going home was inconvenient) people slept wherever they were the most comfortable.

I think North Americans read sexuality into what is considered normal behaviour in many societies. It is North America that is preoccupied with the bedrooms of other people.

03 Jul 05 - 05:34 PM (#1514669)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: McGrath of Harlow

dianavan's got the point I was making.

Not just North America, though the impression I get is that this appetite to read sexuality into just about any kind of contact between human beings has probably gone even further there than in most part of Europe.

It's as if extending freedom in one direction has to be balanced by diminishing it in other directions.

Some of the published guidelines I've seen about how teachers should act in relation to young children, when it comes to any kind of contact are frightening. I can envisage a time down the line when patting a dog or stroking a cat will be seen as clear evidence of a tendency towards bestiality.

03 Jul 05 - 06:18 PM (#1514718)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: dianavan

McGrath - Your point about teachers touching students is well taken. I teach young children how to read. I know that in the beginning stages of understanding print, it is essential that the child sit next to you while you track the print with your finger. This requires very close contact. Learning to read requires emotional safety. It doesn't happen until you feel secure enough to take a risk.

I can't tell you how many times in a day that my students say, "Can I have a hug?" Often they will hug me impulsively. What kind of a message would I give if I didn't return their affection? I am not a touchy-feely teacher and, in fact, I'm considered to be strict and demanding. At the end of the year, my students appreciate it and their parents say thanks for pushing him/her to be the best that they can be. Its pretty hard to push them if it isn't balanced by genuine affection.

I have one or two years until I retire. I am ignoring the 'no touching' rule and if I am taken to court for an act of kindness, so be it. Schools are stone, cold institutions. Take away the affection between teachers and students and what we have left is a relationship akin to prisoner and guard.

There is something very wrong with a society that thinks that it can dictate what are normal relationships between human beings.

03 Jul 05 - 06:50 PM (#1514738)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Jimmy C

I have been away for a while but my oh my what a commotion.

If you read my posts again I never said that gay couples should not have all the benefits etc of straight couples. I simply said that their union should not be be described as a marriage because it is different from what we know as a tradional marriage. For starters, a union between a man and a woman is NATURAL, a homosexual union is not natural (how many out there think it is a natural act )?. It is not, it may be loving na dcaring etc but it is not the same. It is completely different and therefore cannot be termed as equal?. I really resent that fact that the government of Canada is classifying my relationship with my wife of 37 years as the same as the relationship between two men. It is not and I never will see it as such. It is DIFFERENT and should have a DIFFERENT title such as "legal union- or some other terminology.

Many people years ago cried about keeping religion out of goverment, but if I and others say "keep government out of religion" I am called a bigot or as Clinton described me as a bigoted jerk. So much for equality eh.

Marriage and family existed long before any legislature decided to regulate them. For centuries they have been central to society, contributing to its social cohesion and fundamental structure... Marriage and family promote the psychological, social and eonomic well being of all members of the family unit.

Homosexual unions may very well be loving and caring as most of you say but they are different, and as such should have a different designation.

We had a gay parade in Toronto last week, and if anyone were to walk down the street on any other day of the year, dressed like some of the participants in the parade they would get arrested for indecent exposure.

Equality in relation to pensions, benefits, health care etc is ok with me and most other non gay citizens, I have never had any problem of equality in all aspects of life., but I do draw the line a defining their relationships and straight relationship as equal. THEY ARE NOT. Gays have a different lifestyle and a gay union should have a different designation.

03 Jul 05 - 07:15 PM (#1514758)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: McGrath of Harlow

So it's purely linguistic, Jimmy. Not really worth worrying about then, surely.

Marriages differ in all kinds of ways. There is when young people get married and plan to have a family. There is when two very career orientated people get married with no intention of having a family. There are people who live together for years and have children, and then decide to formalise. Or you have two retired people long past child-bearing getting married. Or couples who remarry after divorces, and set up a household with the children from both marriages.

They are all different, and it'd be quite easy to imagine a society where different words were used for them all. But it makes a lot of sense to just use the one word to cover a whole reange of situations.

One query though - what's the right term to use in relation to gay marriages? What do they say in the ceremony? Husband for both men and wife for both women, perhaps? Partner sounds too much like business or bridge. I suppose "spouse" would be one option.

03 Jul 05 - 07:24 PM (#1514774)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Ebbie

"Marriage and family existed long before any legislature decided to regulate them. For centuries they have been central to society, contributing to its social cohesion and fundamental structure... Marriage and family promote the psychological, social and eonomic well being of all members of the family unit." Jimmy C

Would you agree, Jimmy C, that the basis of what you are referring to
is love and commitment? A love and respect from one adult to the other and to children and the commitment to the nurturing of their relationships? Put that way, I agree that the family unit has been paramount in civilization.

I think I know what you mean by "natural". Do you mean that if it were natural, i.e. 'nature's way', there would be the capability of offspring? (Leaving aside the many heterosexual couples who have not been able to have offspring.) That may be. The fact remains that there is such a phenomenom as same-sex attraction and cohesion. What are we to make of that?

When someone suggests that "all she needs is a good man" or vice versa, they don't know what they're saying. It is like saying that if a heterosexual person spent enough time with another heterosexual person of the same sex and learned to love and depend upon the other person it would inevitably become a sexual relationship. It's just not so. For whatever reason, there are people among us all who react romantically to their own gender just as there are other people out there to whom the notion doesn't even occur, much less have a primeval force behind it.

We're complicated beings; so far as I know, nobody really knows why we differ in our attractants. But there are differences and they are valid ones. And natural, in the sense that we use the word.

I have both gay and lesbian friends. Maybe I'm just lucky in my friendships- they are good people.

03 Jul 05 - 08:48 PM (#1514815)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

"a homosexual union is not natural"
The level of ignorance that statment demonstrats is astounding... ALL primates, humans included, indeed all MAMALS exibit some level of and some percentage of same-sex attraction... Even some of the animals that pair-bond for life occasionally do so in same-sex pairs... You gotta suck it up and accept that, no matter how for your head is up your backside, gay is JUST as 'natural' as straight...

"It is completely different and therefore cannot be termed as equal"
Men and woman are completely different... are THEY not equal?

03 Jul 05 - 09:11 PM (#1514825)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST

Men and woman are completely different... are THEY not equal?

Equal to what?

(this is quite possibly a case for -)

03 Jul 05 - 09:22 PM (#1514830)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: LilyFestre

"For starters, a union between a man and a woman is NATURAL, a homosexual union is not natural (how many out there think it is a natural act )?."

We have raised Labs for a number of years. One of our labs was gay...most definately, GAY. He had NO interest in any of the females but could be found looking for love with any number of the other male dogs. So I disagree with you, I do think it is natural.

Michelle

03 Jul 05 - 09:38 PM (#1514836)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,T rex

so's extinction

03 Jul 05 - 09:43 PM (#1514837)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: dianavan

Jimmy C - It is also 'natural' to give birth without the use of anaesthetic and although that is my preference, I'm not about to impose natural child birth on others. Because I gave birth naturally, does that mean that other women should use another word to describe their experience?

We are a long way from the natural world, Jimmy. Not much of what occurs today can be called natural. Cars, toilets, microwaves, electrical lights, and just about everything that helps us to survive in modern day society is unnatural. I doubt if you will see anyone impose a ban because of it.

Lets not begrudge a couple of human beings the comfort of love within a committed relationship. If thats what they want, they are much straighter than I am.

04 Jul 05 - 03:56 PM (#1514984)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Jimmy C

So if a male has an attraction to another male and that is considered natural and they are free to conduct themselves as they see fit because it is their right under the Charter of Rights".

A paedophile has an attraction to a child, is that any less natural ???.

A Kleptomaniac has a natural urge to steal - is his rights being trampled on if we don't allow it, after all to him stealing is natural.

What about arsonists, a natural urge to get their kicks out of flres, surely these tendencuies are just as natural to all others. Where do we draw the line. Is there any possibility that at some future date the illegality of these natural urges will be challenged under the Charter of Rights. After all one cannot be discriminated agains because of sexual orientation.

I still maintain that a gay union is not the same as a straight union and should have it's own designation and no one will ever change my mind on that.

04 Jul 05 - 04:01 PM (#1514988)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

Same sex attraction harms no one, unlike pedophilia, kleptomania, or arson...

You're neck-deep in the 'Slippery Slope' fallacy and sinking fast...

"no one will ever change my mind on that"
Then go on your marry bigoted way, and one day the world will be rid of you, and better off for it....

04 Jul 05 - 04:01 PM (#1514989)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Peace

"A paedophile has an attraction to a child, is that any less natural ???."

That is NOT protected in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms as either a right or a freedom. FYI.

04 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM (#1514993)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Jimmy C

This just in from N. Ireland

Gay couples have been banned from holding civil partnership ceremonies in a County Antrim council's wedding room.
New legislation being introduced in December will enable same-sex civil partnership registrations in the UK.

However, such acts are to be excluded from Lisburn Borough Council's marriage suite, following a proposal by Alliance councillor Seamus Close.

Gay rights activists said the move was "discriminatory". Mr Close said it made a distinction with marriage ceremonies.

"My objection is that there's a lot of interchange of language used here," he said.

"People are already referring to same-sex marriages, which is a total and absolute contradiction of terms. A wedding is a union between a man and a woman.

"Under the Civil Partnership Act, this is same-sex registration.

"So it's to draw that distinction and it's to afford the proper dignity and distinction to a wedding as opposed to a civil partnership."

The Civil Partnership Act creates a new legal relationship, which two people of the same-sex can form by signing a document.

The council says the wedding room is to be used for heterosexual couples

It provides same-sex couples with parity of treatment in a wide range of legal matters with those opposite-sex couples who enter into a civil marriage.

Mr Close explained that the motion which the council had backed proposed that same-sex civil partnership registration should "be not afforded the same recognition" as a civil marriage ceremony.

It also proposed that the council's wedding room, the Cherry Room, should not be used for such registrations.

Mr Close pointed out that they would take place in the registrar's office.

Sean Moran of the Rainbow Project in Londonderry said he agreed the language was important, as the term marriage had been used to "confuse" people.

But he added: "I still can't understand why he would feel that same gender relationships being registered, and recognised, should not be afforded the same equality as a heterosexual couple."

Wedding planner

Mr Moran said he objected to the council's move as it sent out the message that same gender relationships "should not have the same recognition" as heterosexual unions.

"Same gender couples are not looking for heterosexual marriages, it's something different. We want our relationships recognised by law to protect us and give us the rights as a couple."

Richard Jones, the Creative Director of Modern Commitments, a gay wedding planners in the UK, said the Act laid down the minimum that any council could provide.

But he said many councils had been very understanding of the gay community's needs.

"What many couples are opting to do when councils are not being very understanding and not providing any kind of ceremony - although many, many councils around the UK are happy to provide this ceremony - they are choosing to have the ceremonial part of their day somewhere else."

04 Jul 05 - 04:05 PM (#1514996)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Peace

One more thing. Your right to swing your fist stops at the end of my nose. If two men or two women marry, it is not really any of my business. It isn't really any of my business when a man and a woman or a woman and a man marry, either. I fail to see how the new law is detrimental to your marriage. I guess I just don't understand your objection. No offence to you, Jimmy.

04 Jul 05 - 11:44 PM (#1515048)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,mapples

Who can condemn love, commitment, caring between 2 adult humans albiet what sex they are. I think the world can use a little more of it. Let's erase all ridiculus mores that have been manifested by power controlling religions, that have forgotten what the meaning of truth, love, tolerance and above all forgiveness.

05 Jul 05 - 02:37 AM (#1515168)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: dianavan

"It also proposed that the council's wedding room, the Cherry Room, should not be used for such registrations."

Are you saying that the 'Cherry Room' must have a woman in it? Sounds sexist to me.

05 Jul 05 - 03:14 AM (#1515197)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Azizi

Some of my best friends are....gay-and that's just one facet of their being. It's their perogative to do what they want to do, and mine to do what I want.

What the world needs now is love. I applaud Canada for being the progressive nation that the USA should be.

05 Jul 05 - 11:19 AM (#1515400)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Jimmy C

Peace, The Charter of rights states " that no oine can be discriminated against because of their Sexual Preference., that wording does not exclude anybody, therefore Pedophiles are not excluded under the charter. I realize that there would be a huge outcry if they tried to isist on their rights, but the text of the charter does not exclude anyone ?.

Clinton,

Only 1 to 2% of the population of Canada is gay, so the rest of us straight people will be around for quite a while. Sorry.

05 Jul 05 - 11:34 AM (#1515419)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow

Paedophilia is a red herring here, as would be bestiality. They are both a kind of rape, like any kind of sexual activity that is imposed on a weaker partner.

But this stuff about "civil unions" and "marriage" really is just about terminology. No different from "what is folk" really"... Language changes, and sometimes it changes in what seems a silly way to many people, that's all. And you can't do much about it.

05 Jul 05 - 01:40 PM (#1515503)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST

Jimmy - Sexual preference is not the same thing as sexual abuse.

The difference is obvious to most people.

05 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM (#1515550)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond

"so the rest of us straight people will be around"

Your being straight has nothing to do with it... you being an old bigot is what I was on about... the world is, day by day, losing more and more of your kind... and the sooner we're quit of yas, the better... The earth is calling to you... go down into it

and I'll quote what guest above said here again, just cause you seem to need to have everything repeated...

Jimmy - Sexual preference is not the same thing as sexual abuse.

The difference is obvious to most people.

05 Jul 05 - 07:56 PM (#1515594)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: McGrath of Harlow

And verbal abuse is not the same as reasoned argument. And I'd like to hope the difference is obvious to most people...

05 Jul 05 - 08:21 PM (#1515607)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Donuel

...Desperate Straights...

Chapter 7.

Reggie was cool skin deep but inside he was as nervous as a cat in the water. The 50 foot catamaran was nearing Canadian waters in moderate seas. Reggie knew a thousand things could still go wrong; the video camera might malfunction, The Coast Guard might try to board them, Jerry Falwell and Donald Rumsfeld might wake up from the 2 roofies they were given prematurely, or not at all.

Desperate men with desperate plans are a recipe for disaster but so far so good. Reggie's friendship with Rumsfeld's daughter in Connecticut was the lynch pin to spirit Donald upon the sailboat without a hitch. Reggie was still reeling with surprise at how easy it was to lure Jerry onboard with the promise of Thai hookers back in Lynchburg Virginia. All the way down the river from Lynchburg the crew was were scared but once they made it to Connecticut and got Donald, everyone had a sense of relief, although it was undeserved.

Once the marriage ceremony was video taped, getting their captives back to the world without undue suspicion would require a miracle.
Bruce, Telly and Captain Raynam were now accustomed to miracles.

Bruce yelled down from the wheel, "The GPS says were now in Canadian waters!". Reggie want down to dress the groom and groom to be...

"Do you Donald Rumsfeld wish to released to Canadian officials?"
"I do"
"and do you Jerry Falwell wish to be released as well?"
"I do"
Reggie thought to himself 'editing this tape will be a cinch'.

05 Jul 05 - 09:12 PM (#1515641)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Donuel

gay marriage in space.

A growing concern that requires a United Nations resolution.
If not - The United States has the moral obligation to act unilaterally!

05 Jul 05 - 10:14 PM (#1515674)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: LilyFestre

I have a button that hangs on the ceiling of my car that reads:

May all bigots return to their next life as a disabled, homeless, gay woman of color.

Another (rainbow) button reads Who do you think made the homosexuals? Which is imposed on the big white bubble letters that spell out GOD. Likely would irritate half the folks in my church and frankly, I don't care.

Michelle

06 Jul 05 - 01:09 PM (#1516300)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: McGrath of Harlow

Mind ,the logic of that first button would be that it is all right being nasty to those kinds of people, because they were probably bigots in a previous life, so serve them right.

There's a lot to be said for using what we recognise as bigotry and prejudice in other people as an occasion to search out the bigotries and prejudices which we harbour ourselves, and of which we are completely unconscious.

06 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM (#1516420)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Jimmy C

A bigot is one who would deny rights to other people. I do not want to deny gays the right to form a union. I just want them to call it something else. It will never be considered a marriage to the majority of canadians, and that will not change. It could quite easily be referred to as a Civic Union - A Registered union - A same gender union or whatever (with all rights assured). Two men in a relationship is not the same as a man and a woman in a relationship and never will be.

In the N. Ireland article above, even the gays recognise that their relationships are different from heterosexual relationships and state that

"Same gender couples are not looking for heterosexual marriages, it's something different. We want our relationships recognised by law to protect us and give us the rights as a couple."

06 Jul 05 - 04:10 PM (#1516427)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: gnu

Good point, James. But, don't give ANY Canuck civil servant the idea of re-writing all of the Marriage Act, the Divorce Act or whatever act. Jeepers, can you imagine how many person-years a crack fed employee could get funds for? Break the budget it would.

06 Jul 05 - 04:35 PM (#1516446)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: McGrath of Harlow

There's a term "covenant relationship" which rather neatly sidesteps this argument about words. The term can cover a whole range of situations where people pledge to spend the rest of their lives together. Traditional marriage isn't the only one. It gets used in relation to people in religious communities making solemn vows, as well as partnerships between couples.

07 Jul 05 - 03:29 PM (#1517258)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,Memory of Martin Gibson

I am still very glad that fags cannot marry in America.

Your civilization stinks, Canada.

07 Jul 05 - 06:05 PM (#1517415)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: gnu

Hehehehe. Not a brain in the head. At least we have a CIVILization. Go crawl back under your rock, slime. And, at least try to think of an original name to hide behind you fucking coward. Last response to that piece of shit troll, I hope.

07 Jul 05 - 06:42 PM (#1517462)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST

Aren't they all the same sex up there in Canada anyway?

07 Jul 05 - 07:23 PM (#1517501)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: gnu

Hehehe. Yup. Fuckin freezin.

07 Jul 05 - 08:29 PM (#1517566)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST

On ski lifts?

07 Jul 05 - 10:28 PM (#1517640)
Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Jimmy C

McGrath, That's a well thought out term - I would have no difficulty with it.