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17 Jul 05 - 11:24 AM (#1522964) Subject: BS: buying a rider mower From: RangerSteve Mowing in this humidity is getting to me. And, sometimes it rains for a week at a time, after which the grass is so tall that it has to be mowed twice, and I have 1.5 acres to mow. It's also on a hill, and I'm just too old for this. So I'm saving up for a rider mower. Who has one, and what's a good brand to buy? I'm leaning towards a John Deere, but I'd like to hear from people who have some experience with these matters. Thanks, Steve |
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17 Jul 05 - 12:06 PM (#1522991) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: gnu Check out what brands the local golf courses use. While competing brands may be similar in quality and paric, the local retailers may not... and these are the guys you will have to deal with for parts and service for a loooong time, hopefully. |
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17 Jul 05 - 12:42 PM (#1523025) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: bobad Golf courses generally use trailing mowers pulled by a tractor. If money's no object go for the best, a category which would include John Deere. I have a 18 HP. Craftsman with a Kohler engine which has been serving me very well for several years now. I'm not too familiar with the JD but a couple of things to look for are a heavy duty motor with an automotive spin-off type oil filter and a cast iron front axle - the most common failure point on mowers with stamped steel axles. |
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17 Jul 05 - 09:02 PM (#1523057) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: open mike craftsman is a sears brand, and the fellow who regularly mows a meadow near me has one of these. He said that sears has a good service plan. |
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17 Jul 05 - 09:30 PM (#1523075) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Bee-dubya-ell I've had a 42" cut Troy-Bilt lawn tractor with a 17hp B&S engine for seven or eight years. Never had any trouble with it. They're also available with Kohler engines If I were buying today, I'd probably go for the John Deere. Home Depot or Lowe's (I forget which) carries them at prices comparable to the Troy-Bilt line. By the way, get a lawn tractor, not just a riding mower. And get some kind of cart to pull behind it. You'll probably discover you use it for hauling stuff around the property as much as you use it for mowing. |
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17 Jul 05 - 09:48 PM (#1523086) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Bobert You can get any of the proposed barnds, tho I would personallu go with Cub Cadet, which hasn't been suggested as yet... Yeah Kohler engines are real good, 'cept these days they have cast iron bores and not blocks, like the Briggs and Stratton and Honda... But what I would recommend that what ever you purchease you also purchase a bagger with it... This is gonna give you a cleaner look, less clippings which can choke yer grass, make subsequent cuttings easier because you aren't fightin' thru last cuttings clippings AND you can use them to make compost... Good luck, but get a bagger... Bobert |
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17 Jul 05 - 10:05 PM (#1523103) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: bobad I wish to disagree with Bobert re. a bagger. With 1.5 acres to mow a bagger would be a royal pain in the ass - you'd be stopping every few minutes to empty it. A mulching blade is the way to go IMO. I've been using one all along and granted it creates a few clumps here and there but overall it saves a lot of time and labor.Unless your goal is a super manicured lawn on which you can play croquet mulching is the way to go. |
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17 Jul 05 - 11:12 PM (#1523136) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: LilyFestre I'm with Bobad on this...if you have that much to mow, skip the bagger...clippings make great mulch anyway. We have a Craftsman from Sears...runs great! I highly reccommend it! Have fun....VVVvrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrommmmmmmmmmmm! Michelle |
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17 Jul 05 - 11:13 PM (#1523139) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Stilly River Sage I did some research recently on line trimmers, and a friend who is up on all of this says Troy-Bilt was purchased by a Chinese company a couple of years ago. They bought it for the name, and apparently have no intent to support all of the existing Troy-Bilt equipment from the previous company. The jury is out on the new stuff, but it sounds pretty dodgy to me. I ended up with Ryobe. A little underpowered compared to my old Craftsman, but it starts easily so I spend a lot less time trying to start it or fixing the broken starter cord. A friend of mine suggested that if I were ever to buy a riding mower for here that I buy a used one to see if I like it. The depreciation would have been taken care of, and if it was more than I wanted, I could turn around and sell it for the same price, no loss. Good luck in your choice. SRS |
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18 Jul 05 - 09:55 AM (#1523215) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Shakey You could go completely mad and get a thrill while your mowing |
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18 Jul 05 - 10:09 AM (#1523230) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: bobad Another alternative for the man or woman of leisure. |
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18 Jul 05 - 10:19 AM (#1523236) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: wysiwyg We got a GREAT deal on a older, used Deere-- not the newer, "affordable," smaller models they market for backyards to compete with Sears, etc., but a real garden tractor. Have had years of happy use. PM if you wnat to talk to my husband by phone or email on various models, what he's liked, annual maintenance tasks and costs, changing mower deck/snowplow, winterizing, etc. The dealer financed it for us-- like tiny car payments. Still running long after being paid off. We're in farm country-- serious equipment, heavy use. If you can find a farm-area dealer with a good reputation locally, IMO take a classic off his hands. ~Susan |
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18 Jul 05 - 10:38 AM (#1523250) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Mooh Kubota, John Deere, Ford, and Cub Cadet (in that order of preference) are the ones I've used while working for school boards and others. I also had to service the things as much as I could, oil changes, blade sharpening and the like. The Kubota had lots of power and didn't give me any grief, the JD and Ford were easy to service and get parts for, the Cub Cadet ran well but needed constant attention and lacked power (though it WAS small for the job). A couple of them had tire pressure issues so I learned early to install tubes the first time the tire had to come off the rim. bobad is right, the mulching blade is better, but keep it sharp and balanced. None of these machines were quiet and I found that hearing protection was necessary, especially while the mower was engaged. But don't skimp on horsepower, you might want to use the machine for hawling or plowing sometime. Peace, Mooh. |
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18 Jul 05 - 11:03 AM (#1523265) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: JohnInKansas Nearly all of the mowers mentioned, with the specific exception of the John Deere, are made by one company: MTD. The home page at the link lists about half of the "brands" (that I know of) that they actually produce. The design is basically the same for all of them, although the various retailers may select minor "special features." Some retailers get a thicker coat of paint, or chose to offer only the hydraulic transmissions, etc; but otherwise there's not really too much reason to pick one over another except based on price and after-purchase support. Note that the lowest prices may be "unassembled," and the assembly fee may be more than the difference for one that comes all put together. Most of MTD mowers use Briggs & Stratton engines, although a few models have Tecumseh or Kohler. No problems that I've heard of specific to any of the common engine makers. In most cases, something else will wear out before the engine. Retailers may occasionally go to another maker, sometimes just for one or two models; and Sears is one that has done that, often putting the "Sears brand" on side by side models made be different manufacturers. There really aren't too many other places they can go though, and you may have a hard time finding out who makes a given model until you get the warranty papers at delivery time. With Sears, you may never know, since they'll have Sears part numbers for everything - regardless of who made it. If you really don't want an MTD mower, you almost have to go with one of the heavy duty jobs, or one of the several ZTR (zero turn radius) machines. John Deere has an excellent reputation, and every one wants one, even if just for the "guy thing" factor. Unfortunately a "Deere" is usually priced at 1.5 to 2.0 times similar models with other brand names. It may actually be worth the difference, but I've never been able to afford one to try it out. Basic Decision 1: With a 1.5 acre yard, you might want to consider a "garden tractor" with mower attachment, rather than just a mower. There is a substantial difference if you might want to tow a cart or maybe put a snow blower on to clear the drive. The typical mower may be dressed up to look like a tractor, but its "pulling power" will be near zero. Basic decision 2: Be sure to do a little checking on the widths of your gates and the gaps between trees and curbings. If your mower won't fit through even one of them, you'll wish you'd noticed it before you paid your money. Most common mistake: Some retailers order extra large engines to impress the buyers. Oversized engines are not an advantage and generally just tear up the drive train significantly faster - a very common cause of poor performance complaints. Get an engine big enough for the mower it's hung on, but avoid one that's significantly bigger than comparable models, unless the mower/tractor it's on is specifically designed to handle the extra HP and your intended use justifies the heftier design. John |
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18 Jul 05 - 12:09 PM (#1523326) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Amos John: Your pragmatic erudition continues to impress!! If I ever need one of these things, I'll know who to ask! A |
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18 Jul 05 - 01:01 PM (#1523365) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: JohnInKansas Erudition comes at a price. I have a rider (sort of) and have not had particularly good luck with it. The problem I've had though would be about the same regardless of which commonly available one I'd chosen - at least as I see it. The manufacturer is "cheerfully cooperating" in the solution of my problem, but it has been 67 days since I last saw my mower while I await his "solution." It also took some rather extended study of the situation, and some rather drastic action to elicit said "cheerful" response. Maybe when it's all over with I'll have some more opinion(s). I'm sure that eventually I'll be able to say that they "took care of me," one way or another. John |
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18 Jul 05 - 07:33 PM (#1523721) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: GUEST IT WOULD BE CHEAPER TO BUY 10 SHEEP |
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18 Jul 05 - 08:14 PM (#1523747) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Kaleea Guest may be on the right track. A few years back, I had an elderly neighbor who used to bring a some of his sheep across the road to my "yard" of a couple of acres, & tie a big branch onto their neck so they wouldn't go too far or back onto the road--they absolutely hated dragging the stick on the paved road. Then before dark, he'd come back & call, "C'mon young'uns. Come to Papa." He'd pet them & hug them. Back they'd go across the road. I didn't mind the poop, as I never used that field. |
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18 Jul 05 - 08:21 PM (#1523751) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Mooh Yeah, us Celts like sheep. Mooh. |
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19 Jul 05 - 09:55 AM (#1523919) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Amos But sheep lie. A |
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19 Jul 05 - 10:17 AM (#1523946) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: RangerSteve Thanks. You've all been really helpful. I've got a lot to think about now. Steve |
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19 Jul 05 - 10:30 AM (#1523960) Subject: RE: BS: BUYING THE GNOMES A RIDING MOWER From: Stilly River Sage Ha! (re-read the title please--my dyslexic eyes were playing games this morning). |
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19 Jul 05 - 06:32 PM (#1524062) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: jpk just remeber that sears is only a house brand,could have been built by any outfit,but to standards that allow sears to stand behind it. now for the important question,do you want the mower only for cutting grass[if so buy sheep]or do you maybe want to get into racing,if so a whole lot of factors will have to be considered. many more than if you want the mower for doing something as mundane as "mowing" the grass when every one starts to buy mower's for actually mowing,you know were in for trouble. have a great day |
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19 Jul 05 - 11:22 PM (#1524092) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: JohnInKansas I've begun to think that the thing that causes all the 'cat problems is the "submit" button. For what it's worth, some "musings" from yesterday that didn't make it in timely fasion. Noting the comment about being on a hill: A garden tractor, sometimes called a lawn tractor, generally is a little heavier, and may(?) have a bit lower center of gravity than common mowers. If slopes you intend to mow are significant, some attention to "gradeability" may be merited. The heavier machines will certainly have better traction. Most of the home-user mowers have such low ground contact loading that they may just spin their wheels on slopes you can walk easily - especially on "green" growth or with a little dew on the grass. If you have irregular enough slopes to make tipping a concern, or if you may need some "traction improvement," you may want to consider add-on wheel weights. You'll probably have to do a little research to find out if a smaller tractor is equipped for them since it's not usually an advertised feature and many of them don't specifically provide for added weights. Nearly any of them can have at least small weights "kitted" on, using the wheel mount studs, but provision for real "rim weights" might be a plus. (Note that adding weights to most lightweight mowers is unlikely to help much. It's the low tire pressure and "slick" treads that defeat the traction.) For really irregular land, there are more sophisticated machines available with "self-leveling" features and/or with "brush mower" capabilities; but these usually get into higher price categories. If you're just talking about enough slope to make it a nuisance to push hard uphill, then you shouldn't have to worry about the extras. For most general mowing I favor "using the plug" and letting the mower mulch the clippings in place. The mention of seasonal growth spurts suggests though that you may find times when the grass gets ahead of you and you'll want to "windrow" the clippings by letting them run out of the side discharge, and/or you'll want a bagger of some sort. Baggers are usually extra, and the common ones that hang on the back of the mower are not too generously sized. The "deluxe" attachment that blows the clippings into a trailer towed behind would be overkill on my 0.x acre, but might be worth looking at on a larger lot. If your windrows aren't too tight - and if having them there for a bit doesn't offend, they'll mulch okay the next time you just mow over them. The problem with bagging the clippings is that you have to do something with them, but they often can be dumped in the low spots and allowed to mulch/compost there to help level those "trouble spots" where you always scalp the turf a bit and/or where there's always a damp spot and you spin the wheels. Of course you can always "pit" them somewhere and use the compost to fill in later, but I'm lazy enough to want to move them once and be done with it. There may be times when you may need to use "off-site" disposal of clippings, but I'm inclined to feel that sending great bags of clippings to the landfill every time you mow is a bit "antisocial." Before you bring the new mower/tractor home you should think a bit about where you're going to keep it. The mower (x3+), bagger (x1.2), possibly a utility trailer (x4+) and a few odds and ends of pieces that you put on and take of as you use the thing will add up to (3 + 1.2 + 4 + ? + ...) times the space taken up by your old mower. You may also need/want to store a bit more fuel, a spare belt or two, etc. You'll want a protected storage space to keep it all in. While most of it can just sit out in the weather with a tarp over it, the better protection you provide the better stuff will last. A rain-proof shed or at least a leanto/canopy will be a big help - assuming you don't have room in your garage. Especially with the lighter "mower only" machines, the 8 to 10 psi tire pressure usually specified is not enough to keep moisture from wicking in at the tire bead - even, or especially, if you have tubes in the tires. The rims will rust inside and chew up the tubes if you don't have a dry storage space. If you do have to store in a more exposed area, dismounting and cleaning - possibly repainting - the rims may be something to consider as an annual or biannual maintenance, although most people just buy new tires every few years. Of course, with 1.5 acres, you've got room for a little "habitat" that you can avoid mowing if you can convince the neighbors "it's for the critters;" but some restraint is necessary 'cause some of the critters can be a nuisance too. John |
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20 Jul 05 - 09:12 AM (#1524129) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: LilyFestre I have to comment here. WYSIWYG has a good point...farm/tractor shops are indeed a good place to go look! I am curious though, are you looking for a tractor strictly for mowing grass? Level area? Our Craftsman was about $1200.00 3 years ago. Since then, it has hauled my big butt up and down the hills with great power and it has also worked great for cutting high field brush (takes 2 swipes...once with the blade set high and then lowered to accomodate such volume and height of the weeds)paths to the pool. I have also used it out in the woods to cut away a year's worth of brush that had grown up around a cabin...took the tree roots and bumps with great strides! I have a few attachments for it, the wagon getting more use than any of the others (besides the mower). The only trouble we've ever had with it is because we got a batch of bad gas...nothing to do with the mower at all. Also, it comes with a great warantee if anything should go wrong. If you aren't confident in buying a used mower, and want a great tractor at a reasonable price, I'd still recommend the Craftsman...it's a workhorse! It really is one of the best investments we have made to keep our little farm somewhat manageable. If you have the cash, and want a boy toy....head for the Kubota store my friend....and take my husband with you!!!!!!!!!!!! :) Michelle |
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20 Jul 05 - 01:04 PM (#1524411) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: open mike riding mower racing site http://www.letsmow.com/ http://www.geocities.com/ndlmra/ just google mower race and lawn mower racing association to find out more.. check before you get your unit. you may have other specifications that you did not originally include |
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20 Jul 05 - 05:30 PM (#1524556) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: jpk some good sites you brought up mike somehow to me it makes more sense to get a mower to use for doing something that makes sense'like racing' than doing something silly like 'gak'cutting the grass. you can always get goats,or con a neiborhood kid into doing it for less than the cost of a machine that will spend most of it time sitting and watching the grass to grow,and wishing it was on the track instead. have to keep the mowers feeling in mind to. have a nice day |
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21 Jul 05 - 10:35 AM (#1525056) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Hardiman the Fiddler For what it is worth, if the lawn you are mowing is hilly, it pays to get one that has a fully pressurized oil system rather than the splash type lubricator that many lesser models have--the fully pressurized engine insures that all the parts will get oiled all the time instead of the part that is lower--and affected by gravity. Hardiman |
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21 Jul 05 - 11:05 AM (#1525115) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: GUEST,pattyClink Great info John, thanks. Our family has some huge yards to keep up and got a Ferris ZTR type a few years back. Does beautifully, and the one time it needed attention the dealer did it very quickly and I believe even delivered it when done. If you ever have to get a new unit, and there's a Ferris dealer up that way you might check them out |
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02 Aug 05 - 06:07 PM (#1533641) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: JohnInKansas When I found that it was taking me about 7 hours to mow my vast estate, I bought a riding mower that reduced the time to about 1.5 hours. But: (hang on folks, for major rant) Riding mower purchase date: 15 MAY 2000. September 2001, mowing/mulching debris pushed up from mower deck ignited from engine exhaust and burned out all engine wiring, dipstick tube, several "safety" interlock switches, and one drive belt. Mower inoperable. Dealer unable to supply parts needed or to identify an approved service facility. Manufacturer's phone number found in paperwork from the time of purchase provided an 800 phone number, which produced only a recorded message that "all service must be obtained through the dealer. Three separate dealers provided no assistance or useful information. Search of manufacturer's website at that time failed even to identify the "brand name" under which I'd purchased the mower as one they manufacture. Needless to say, no part information/identification could be found. Calls to the first 80 or so (of about 140) "mower repair shops" listed in my local phone book failed to identify one who had heard of this "brand" mower, or would admit they might be able to fix it. April of 2003, a "chance encounter" with someone who had seen a mower of the same brand identified a local supplier who was able to order wire harness and safety interlock switches for me. Additional minor parts obtained from original seller. Installation of repair parts required substantial disassembly and jury-rig special tools. In particular, one tension spring, approx 7" free length had to be stretched to approx 13" at about 280 pound tension for reinstallation – for which I cobbled a tool. Total time to repair, about 10 hours. Time to cobble up tools, about 7 hours. Total cost of parts, about $230. Repair of the mower was completed approximately June 1, 2003. June 1, 2003 to September 12, 2004, I experienced more than 14 separate cases of ignition of clippings (counting just the ones I made notes on) without substantial damage to anything. On September 12, 2004, the "last ignition" totally destroyed all main wiring, melted the dipstick tube, and apparently destroyed one engine interlock switch that had escaped damage in the previous major incident. The one engine switch cannot be replaced without removing the engine flywheel, and a special tool is recommended. While I could have made something up, I contacted the local service shop and they assured me they had the tool. Since it was "off-season" I decided to defer repair temporarily. 12/17/2004 I filed an information form with the US Consumer Product Safety Commission, describing the two major fires. January 21, 2005, letter received from mower manufacturer: "In conclusion, I would like to stress to you that we are sorry for the bad experience you have had with one of our products, and as a customer accommodation, we would be willing to have your tractor repaired under the terms of your warranty. Please contact me at your convenience and I can make arrangements through one of our independent dealers to get this accomplished." A minor issue is that no way of following the instruction to "please contact me" was provided in the letter, so it was not until May 9, 2005 that I was able to penetrate the manufacturer's voicemail/web/email system to actually make contact with the author of the letter. May 9, 2005, the manufacturer's representative confirmed the offer to repair the mower, agreed on the selection of the local service company that had previously obtained parts for me as an appropriate sevice agent, and the mower was delivered to the local agent for repair. ca. May 18, 2005, I contacted the local guys and was informed that the engine manufacturer had sent a rep to check the damage (May 12). They had left instructions not to make any repairs "until authorized" and had estimated a response in "7 to 10 days." The local shop informed me that all they received was the verbal instruction to "don't do anything" and that they had no contact information on the engine reps who were there. Apparently the engine guys also told them "Don't call us, we'll call you." Since the entry of the "engine guys" the mower manufacturer has failed to return any reply to any calls or correspondence. June 17, 2005 the local shop put me on hold and claimed to have called the engine mfr's local rep, (at that number he didn't have) who indicated "they'll have an answer within 2 weeks." June 22, 2005 I posted to the "contact us by email" link at the engine manufacturer's site, asking who I should contact to find out what's going on. I received a prompt reply indicating that "someone will contact you." No one ever did. June 27, 2005 I received a blank "Release from Liability" form from the engine manufacturer. The only instruction with it was, in essence, "Sign this or we'll keep your mower." This is the only contact I have had that I did not initiate, from any of the persons or businesses involved. The email contact I posted to the engine manufacturer's web site elicited no information, but was followed up at approximately 10 day intervals with an email asking if "this is still an unresolved problem." Each was answered. July 22, 2005 my last reply to "is this still open" brought a response giving the name and phone number of someone I should contact. The first three messages left on the person's voicemail were not returned. On July 27, he screwed up and answered the phone. Initially he denied any knowledge of the problem, but he did call back about 2 hours later, with the information "we've taken care of it." It took a bit of cross-examining to elicit the information that the engine manufacturer had "authorized repairs on June 22, 2005." He did admit that since the authorization had to be delivered, via a "Zone Office," through a "Regional Office," and then via the "Local Rep" he had no idea when the local service shop may have received it. Since I didn't receive their "liability release" form until a week after his stated date, I seriously doubt that any authorization was made at that time. From the manufacturer: "Take it in and we'll fix it." August 2, 2005: Day 91 since I took it in, I still have no idea what they intend to fix, or when I may have a mower again. The local guys have conceded that they have the necessary authorization to proceed, and vaguely suggest they they may be "waiting for parts," but the office manager seems to be "off this week for the races." I don't know if he's racing lawnmowers or gocarts. No problem. It only took me about 17 hours each of the three times I mowed with my "trimmer" 15 inch Delco electric and I didn't even chop the cord up. My daughter in law mowed the front once with their 21" gasoline pusher (after I rebuilt it for them), so it's only a little over the 12" "nuisance limit" in the back yard. I only got one citation from the city. It's warmed up now and the grass has quit growing. I won't really need it again until about September…. … of course both of the prior disasters were in September when there were a few fallen leaves on the ground… John |
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27 Aug 05 - 10:11 PM (#1551245) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: JohnInKansas A concluding (almost) episode: Lawnmower delivered to authorized service agent for "repair under warranty" on May 9, 2005. Mower released to owner after "completion of repairs" 112 days later (August 23). Backed it off the trailer, fired it up and mowed the side and front yards. Turned engine off to open the gate to the back yard, jumped back on and - - - - NOTHING. Mower completely dead. I have determined that the problem is in the OSHA mandated safety interlock circuitry, since I hot-wired around ALL of them and managed a rough mowing of the back yard (which hadn't been mowed in 3 months and really needed it). At present I can't tell if it's "hidden damage" to some minor components or just mis-rigging of a couple of parts. Since my jury-rig hardly qualifies as a "repaired condition," and scares even me, the mower is effectively dead until I can either return it to the "authorized repair agent" or fix it myself. The latter is more likely. Since I'll be "at Winfield" for the next month, and have cardio-vascular surgery scheduled for the second day after my return with unknown recovery time, it will be at least another month before I will do anything about it. (I wonder if mowing by hand all summer instead of riding around on my nice comfortable riding mower contributed to my medical problems(?) I should ask the mfr??? I think I'll point out that I'm really rather old and feeble.) That will make this simple "warranty repair" at least a 5-month long transaction, effectively preventing me from repairing or using the mower for the entire current year. The engine manufacturer probably has some management hotshot who calls this "risk mitigation." You can't hurt yourself if they don't let you use it? Aren't nice riding lawnmowers fun???????? Isn't manufacturer's friendly product support really helpful????? John |
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27 Aug 05 - 10:39 PM (#1551258) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Stilly River Sage John, Declare it DEAD, write to the State Attorney General's office about the lemon you received and the subsequent lack of assistance, send them your timeline, and get yourself another mower. Buy a used one that you know works. Figure out a way to take the dead one off of your taxes. SRS |
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27 Aug 05 - 11:42 PM (#1551315) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: JohnInKansas SRS - 1. This mower was purchased in 2001 with a one year warranty. 2. In 2005 the mower manufacturer offered "of his own free will" to repair it, as settlement of a "customer satisfaction issue." That I had been unable to use for nearly two of the four years I'd had it wouldn't ordinarily be cause for extending the warranty. There's no "lemon law" for lawnmowers, although Kansas does have a "merchantability statute" I might have attempted to invoke. 3. The mower manufacturer dumped the responsibility for the "warranty repair" on the engine manufacturer, who - aside from being somewhat surprised - apparently had to have a lot of meetings to determine how to settle things up. 4. The local guys (authorized repair agents) were kept just about as uninformed as I was. The only reason all of this happened is that I had, incidentally, filed a report with the US Consumer Product Safety Commission, simply reporting that I had experienced numerous cases of ignition of mowing debris (clippings) and in two cases the mower had effectively destroyed itself by going up in flames. I'm apparently the only one who's reported this to the CPSC, but there are several "personal gripes" about mower fires on the web. They're a little difficult to find, because few of the reporting people have any very clear idea about what really happened, so the descriptions are vague and quite variable. Corollary information: There is only ONE mower manufacturer who makes ALL of the commonly available brands of mowers in the mass-market-home-user category, and there is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in the construction used in any of the available models, with respect to the ignition hazard. This manufacturer uses 3 different brands of engines, but they are all installed in essentially the same configuration, making it relatively insignificant which mower you choose. For twice the price, I could have a Deere, which is built to exactly the same layout with respect to this problem, but may not be made by the other guys. The only way to get a "better" mower would be to move up to an "industrial ZTR mower" or something similar (at about 4 to 6 times the price) or to a full blown tractor (at about 8x the price or more), either of which would be grossly unsuited to the area I have to mow. It has to be considered also that an "industrial mower" or a "full blown tractor" presents other hazards of operation I'd rather not need to contend with. Been there, done that. I believe there are fairly simple mods I can make to this mower to make it significantly safer; but of course I've had almost half a year to lose my enthusiasm. My real complaint isn't with the mower. I could have, and would have, repaired it myself. It's that a repair was promised, it should have taken less than a week, and for four months I had NO CONTACT FROM THE PEOPLE WHO HAD MY MOWER, and NO INFORMATION about when or whether they intended to do something. They were obviously concerned with solving their problem, whatever they perceived it to be, and had NO INTEREST in my problem. Customer DIS-service at its finest. The failure to start more than once when I finally got it back was just another anticlimax. I know (very sure) which specific part is involved, but don't know yet whether the part itself is defective or is just misinstalled/misrigged. I've confirmed that I got a brand new battery in the deal, and I think it's mostly a new engine core. The starter/generator is new, and would have cost me about $200. From my previous replacement I know that there was about $300 worth of wire harness to be replaced. They didn't check the tires, and they were a little low after sitting for four months, but they run fine at zero pressure and they had about 3 psi (6-10 psi is spec). John |
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28 Aug 05 - 05:02 AM (#1551393) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: van lingle Steve, you might want to check out a Walker. They have controls like a Bobcat, I'm not sure what you call it but you push the right lever to go left and vice versa and just sit there to go straight. They are fast, relatively lightweight, well built and are far more manuverable than any tractor type I've ever used. |
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28 Aug 05 - 05:43 AM (#1551407) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: JohnInKansas The Walker looks like a good machine. The "like a Bobcat" controls are typical for what's generically referred to as a "ZTR," for "Zero Turn Radius" mower. It would be great for someone in the mowing business, or for someone with a very large lawn, but I'd question whether most people would be willing to crack into the "$6,000 and up" price range quoted in their faq section for a yard that's less than a couple of acres. At that price range, one could begin to consider a smaller "real tractor" (i.e. conventional, but bigger than a mower) and plow some of the acres for planting. The real advantage of the ZTR style is the short pivot that lets you get close-in to all the junk you find in "professionally landscaped" lawns, so they're mostly used on commercial properties or by the professional mowers who have to handle a wide variety of situations on a day to day basis. If someone with their own residence wants enough "obstructions" to justify one, they'd be better off putting in a groundcover that doesn't need mowing in the vicinity of the It's a good looking machine, and has some nice features, but I haven't compared features on machines in this class. John |
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14 Mar 06 - 07:35 PM (#1693828) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: JohnInKansas I sort of promised a followup to some earlier comments above. My very conventional riding mower experienced more than 16 recorded instances of ignition of vegetation, two of which burned out enough parts to disable the mower. The second time the mower was "totalled" I filed a notice with the Consumer Product Safety Commission, which elicited an offer from the Mower Manufacturer to repair my mower, which was a couple of years out of warranty, as a "customer satisfaction" issue. Note that the flaming mower problem is not "brand specific." The potential seems to be about the same for any of the mowers of the 4-wheel "tractor style" mowers I've looked at. "Looked at" includes taking measurements on significant dimensions in several cases, on several brands. I was hoping to find one that was better, so that I could steal a fix. I had estimated about 3 weeks for my own repair of the mower, including some time to make a couple of special tools I didn't have on hand. The repairs I would have made probably would have required about $500 in parts. A qualified dealer repair shop should have required not more than 2 weeks to do the necessary work, once parts were available. Total time elapsed from delivery of my mower for repair to return to my own use was 112 days, which unfortunately included the entire "mowing season" for the year. Only relatively minor additional repairs were necessary to make the mower usable after I got it back. A recap: Day 1: 09 May 2005: Mower delivered to local Dealer, in compliance with instructions from the Mower Manufacturer. Day 4: 12 May 2005: Mower and Engine Mfr Rep(s) view damage (confirmed by Dealer about a week later) A reply was promised within "about 2 weeks." Day 49: 22 May 2005: Engine Mfr asserts "warranty repair approved." Day 54: 27 May 2005: Dealer apparently received authorization to make warranty repairs and estimates completion in "about 10 days." Day 91: 03 August 2005: Engine Mfr Reps at Dealers to "verify list of parts ordered by dealer." Authorization for Engine Mfr warehouses to ship engine parts was apparently not given until some time after this date. Dealer estimates completion by August 11, "barring unforeseen problems." Day 105: August 16, 2005: Call from Dealer claims he is waiting for parts from the Mower Mfr (ordered ca. Day 54). Engine parts apparently had been received and installed. Day 112: 23 August 2005: Call from Dealer to say mower is ready. Mower was picked up approx 2 hours after they called. Started (barely) but out of gas. Filled on way home. Mower ran for about a half hour, then failed to restart due to misrigged safety interlock switches. I finished mowing my 3 month growth of lawn by running 3 clip-on jumpers to bypass open interlocks and disconnecting 2 kill-switches. Subsequent re-rigging of interlocks took about 2 hours, although I consider the fix temporary. I do not consider self-tapping sheetmetal screws into thin sheetmetal brackets an appropriate method of attachment for safety devices, particularly in an "engine vibration" environment, so I'll eventually add bolt/nut attachments or at least Tinnerman nuts. (This is probably a "defect" common to most similar mowers, regardless of nominal brand naming.) The NEW STUFF: Day 291: 24 February 2006 I returned Customer Satisfaction Survey from the Motor Manufacturers. (Approx 4 days after receipt). The Survey asked only whether I was satisfied with the Dealer's performance. I gave the dealer a satisfactory rating, but included a "relatively mild" (IMO) opinion of the Engine Mfr's performance. Day 309: 14 March 2006: Received a package from the Engine Manufacturer containing a DVD (from their Customer Training Department), a "coffee table" book on the history of the company, and a rather nice "Sports Bag" with a tasteful company logo. An included letter, apparently actually signed by a real person (Warranty Account Manager) offered a brief sort-of apology that probably wasn't just a form letter, as it did make identifiable reference to my case. An apology is always something of a "delicate" matter, and an "apology with gift" sometimes can look like an attempt to "buy off" a complainant. I must admit that my intitial reaction to the latest items was a bit mixed; but I'll take it as a well meant gesture. I believe that it indicates that appropriate people have been informed that there was a problem, and there is at least the possibility that they may take some action to provide reduced likelihood that others will have similar experiences. I'll feel better when I've checked the blogs in a few months to see whether any evidence (either way) shows up. *** Now if the kit I recently extorted from the Mfr of my RV airconditioner (that hasn't worked in the three+ years I've had the RV) actually works... (I had to wait until the warranty on the RV expired to get past an obviously incompetent dealer, and it's been too cold to test it since they shipped the parts.) John |
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14 Mar 06 - 07:59 PM (#1693842) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Bunnahabhain Sounds like a US Problem to me. Here in the UK, I've used three different ride on mowers, on an area of grass totalling about an acre. I've never heard of fires in the mower. Of course this is Britian, where more than a few inches is far too long for grass, and the problem is trying to find a time when it's dry enough to mow.... |
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14 Mar 06 - 09:21 PM (#1693888) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Richard Bridge There are huge design variations available here in the UK - including at least two US designs/makes not mentioned above, Snapper and Wheelhorse. The general view here would I think be (1) buy cheap - buy twice (I've done that) and (2) Mountfield (3) It may be worth specifically sourcing an OLD Mountfield, which were built like trucks and you can easily put eg Whole new engines on. Transmissions seem to be usually proprietary and while not economic to replace seemed to be available even for machines about 20 years old(!) last time I checked. My information is several years out of date. |
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14 Mar 06 - 10:03 PM (#1693927) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: JohnInKansas The fire hazard is mostly when there is loose stuff, like leaves or previously mown (and dried) clippings, that can ride up onto the top of the mower deck. I happen to be in a neighborhood with lots of trees, and strategically located so that all of the fallen leaves from a couple of city blocks in two directions are blown by prevailing winds directly into my yard, where they seem to settle. (After my neighbors use their leaf blowers to blow them all into the street where they "have good mobility.") I get "leaf drifts" that resemble snow drifts from a blizzard, occasionally 7 to 10 inches deep. I don't try to "mulch through" anything that looks deep enough to ride up under the mower; but it's not always possible to tell exactly how deep a localized pileup is. On most mowers of this style, the engine exhaust and muffler are located at the bottom of the engine compartment, just slightly ahead of the mower deck, so that any significant accumulation on top of the deck can be ignited by the exhaust. A contributing "feature" is that the completely enclosed engine compartment makes it impossible to see the area where an accumulation is most critical. My anticipated partial fix will be simply to remove the hood (bonnet), and probably the engine compartment side panels, so that I can tell if something starts to build up. John |
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14 Mar 06 - 10:30 PM (#1693941) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: GUEST,Art Thieme I've got an electric handicap scooter that runs on 2 gel-cell batteries I must recharge every night. These days, it's the only way I get around our area---although I often wonder why I want to do that at all. (Music-wise, this sin't exactly the armpit of the world, but you can sure smell that from here ;-) But I digress... My scooter thingie seems to have given up the proverbial ghost. A good Samaritan fellow is troubleshooting it with a tech guy from 100 miles away, but it comes down to this: I don't trust the damn thing now! It just ain't reliable. The bottom line is that I'm thinking of looking for a riding mower of some kind---but one that has no blade on it!!--------I only want to use it for reliable transport---often on the sidewalk---like with my electric scooter thing! And the blade might kill dogs or cats or small children. As I am sure you can see, we don't want to do that, I guess!? Do these (safe/bladeless) mowers exist? And can I go into stores with them like I can with the electric scooter????? I'd definitely need to do that to get the newspapers and the salacious literature and the milk I went out for safely home. This is a serious querie!! The nice weather is coming---and I want to be ready! Art Thieme |
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15 Mar 06 - 01:51 PM (#1694210) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: JohnInKansas Art - Most of the tractor style mowers have a detachable "mower deck" that has the blades underneath. If you remove the mower parts, they can be used like a small tractor just to ride around on. The problems are mainly size (a bit bulkier than most scooters, and a lot heavier), noise (not really equipped for using amongst fellow shoppers), and since they're mostly gasoline powered you've got all the hazards of fueling, and some smog from the exhaust. In the event you have to take one in for repair, most of the mowers are a "barely fit" into a small pickup truck, and certainly can't be tossed into the trunk of a passenger car or in the back of a station wagon. I actually did some looking for a "beater" lawnmower I could convert to something Lin could use to get around the campground at WVA, and generally found that anything that would run was about as expensive as just buying a new one - close to $2,000 locally now is about minimum. The "mower parts" that you'd take off show at about $400 for replacements, but local dealers probably would have to special order to get one shipped in without the mower - if they can. That's close to what you'd likely pay to replace yours with a new "real" handicap transport. I almost by accident came upon a no-name Chinese scooter at Tractor Supply recently for "only" $700 that I got for Lin; but we haven't used it enough to know if it will stand up to actually going places. (And TSC seems to have stopped carrying them, there are no "authorized service shops," no other known dealers, and the factory is in China and doesn't even have a web site.) TSC does have an "interesting" selection of go-cart and ATV type vehicles that might be of interest, but they're generally in the $2000+ range, and the stuff at the low end of the price range is all so low to the ground I'd have to carry an engine hoist (at least) to get Lin OUT of one of them. Most of the transport scooters I've seen use 2 12V batteries. They're connected in series to run (they call it a 30V system). They have to be disconnected and re-connected in parallel for charging from a 12 volt charger in the simpler ones. The "internal circuits" are supposed to take care of the reconnections automatically when you switch between running and charging modes, but a bad switch or two could mess things up. Most of them have some sort of "controller" that does something or other when the scooter is running, but they're "modular" so replacing the box is usually about all that can be done, if you find that a controller has gone bad. The batteries do wear out eventually, and probably are the most likely cause of "unreliable" operation. You probably should follow the common instructions and replace them both at the same time, since a significant difference between the two will make charging unreliable. You do need the gel type batteries because of the spill hazard with regular auto types, but suitable ones should be easy enough to find unless they're something really odd. If the auto parts houses don't have them, try a motorcycle dealer, since most cycles use them - or are supposed to. My basic answer is that I've looked at a "mower without a blade" for a situation similar to yours, and found it "less than practical" based on what's generally available in my local market, and on some real study of what you can - and can't - expect to actually do with one. They might be more suitable in your situation, but a go-cart/ATV style (kid car type) vehicle might be a lot easier to find. (I can't really offer anything on how reliable the kid cars may be in daily use.) Another possible factor might be that a complete overhaul of the one you've got, or replacement with a like kind, might be at least partially covered by insurance/Medicare etc, while any "alternative" style likely won't be. John |
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15 Mar 06 - 05:00 PM (#1694408) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Mudlark I'm firmly in the Sears camp...had 15HP 42" lawn tractor for 9 years, after which a huge tree fell on it in a storm and bent it out of shape. Ins. paid for a new 18HP, and I sold the old one to a friend for $100, and he was very glad to get it...rebent it into shape and it's now doing great on his place. A couple of things...if you have rough ground, as I do, eventually you'll probably want to put tubes in the tires. Automatics are definitely worth the extra (not much) money. As are iron frames. Also, as you spoke of a "slope" it might be a good idea to take a line of sight drawing with you when you go looking for a tractor, just to make sure slope is not too steep. A slope that feels like nothing on foot can be hair-raising/dangerous to traverse on a tractor. Instruction booklet come with drawing telling you safe angle. And I also agree w/no bagger if you're mowing more than just "lawn." Aside from the multiple emptyings problem, mowing dry wild grass/weeds drives seeds into fabric of bag, leaving it as prickly as a porcupine. And if you live at some distance from town especially, an extended service warranty is worth the money, just as insurance. I can't get my mower into my little truck, and un-warrantyed service call starts at $95, just for repair guy to come out. I mowed by hand for a long, long time; I still feel like a queen every time I get on my lawn tractor...best money I ever spent. |
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15 Mar 06 - 05:22 PM (#1694428) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Richard Bridge Murray used specifically to promote their petrol ride-on mowers (without cutter deck) as disability transport. Here in the UK you can readily get second hand disability scooters for about 400 GBP. |
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15 Mar 06 - 09:31 PM (#1694731) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: GUEST,Art Thieme Bought new, my scooter was about $2,000.00 I've changed batteries 3 times. The ones I have now are a year and a half old. Not gel cell, but sealed. A few days ago, my friend took both batteries and checked them about every way it is possible to check 'em. Slow, trickle recharge etc. etc. They seem fine. Today we cleaned every connection, put the batteries back in place, and tonight I tried the scooter out. I wanted to stay close to home in case the batteries discharged. I went twice around the block with no trouble! THEN it just QUIT!! Spent an hour pushing it and resting and pushing it again to go the quarter of a block back to our place. ----- I'm exhausted! But I'm leaning toward thinking it's the main brain board!!! There's no repair person near here at all. (My friend is just winging it.)----So we will see what we will see!?!? John, thanks for thinking seriously about this. I do appreciate it. I used to go twenty-five miles before recharging --- up the Illinois-Michigan Canal tow path and all over. The bit of freedom it provided was very nice to have when this scooter was reliable. As I said, now I just don't trust it. Art |
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15 Mar 06 - 09:58 PM (#1694738) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Anonny Mouse We got about .75 acre--bought a crappo, small (30") rider--Dynamark. Thing theoretically shouldn'tve lasted 3 years. Kept it tuned up, sharpened, and oil-changed (a guy would pick it up & deliver it back for 10 bucks). It lasted 9 years, still looked good--sold it from my front yard to a guy about 1/2 mile away--rode it down to his house, and got $150.00 for it, no haggling. Only paid about $650. for it new, mowed the hell out of it for 9 years, and got $150.00 out of her at the end. I'd say I beat the odds on that one. Bought a Sears Craftsman--much larger (42" cut)...in August-it was on "clearance"-they had 2 left. GREAT mower...a little sticky with the shifting (it ain't a hydrostatic tranny). However-that particular year, Husqvarna was building the Sears riders. Don't know if they still are. But there is a Husqvarna dealer/repair and Hardware store just down the road a bit. Those Huskies are great mowers...built to last...and expensive. I lucked out with the Craftsman two years ago. My brother in law has the same mower as mine-just a bit bigger engine. Runs like a champ-no service issues. BTW--had a lawnmower "expert"--a guy in the biz-who says Deere's are fine, but they're way overpriced. Plenty out there as good or better for less. He was pretty high on the Craftsman...but says you oughta ask the lawn people if they know who made the mower the year yer buyin' it. Sometimes, they actually do! |
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15 Mar 06 - 11:24 PM (#1694824) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: Stilly River Sage Art, what year, make, manufacturer, and model is your scooter? SRS |
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16 Mar 06 - 01:29 AM (#1694881) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: JohnInKansas Art - The "brains" in most of these are really pretty simple, but unfortunately it's often very difficult to find out which kind of brain is in a specific model. Most of them are pretty much a "replace black box as required" for a complete module of some sort. If the batteries are good, and the charger gets them filled up, the most likely cause of short range has to be that a. some of the juice is going where it shouldn't be going. b. the motor/transmission is using more of the juice than it should, for what it's doing. Most of these scooters use a pretty simple dc motor. Older ones may have a "series wound" motor where the current goes through a field coil, then through brushes and a communtator so that the same current goes through one or more of the several rotor coils. If the commutator/brushes get dirty, some of the current can go to rotor windings other than the one-at-a-time where the current is supposed to go. Since the stuff (graphite) that the brushes are made out of wears off, and can "short circuit" the little gaps between segments on the commutator, eventually the motor loses some - sometimes a lot - of it's original poop. If the motor in your scooter has brushes, cleaning the crud out of the slots between segments of the commutator might get it back to better performance. (You may also want new brushes, if you go to the trouble of overhauling it.?) Most of the more recent scooters that I've seen are using "DC Permanent Magnet" motors, that don't have brushes/commutators. This makes the "brain" that's needed a little more complex, but there is still the possiblity that the permanent magnets in the motor have lost some of their strength. This will make the motor less efficent, so it simply uses more battery output to do the same tripping about. There are, unfortunately, no good ways to test a PM motor other than by seeing whether it "runs like it's supposed to." Measuring current to the motor when it's running under some fairly accurately known load condition may give an indication, but you may have trouble getting the scooter guys to tell you what's "standard conditions." PM motors are relatively invulnerable to demagnetizing, but it can happen: a. if the motor gets seriously overheated. (Major-smoke hot, usually.) b. if it gets "pushed" a lot in operation. Using the motor as a brake is a bit like forcing it run backward when it's trying to go forward. A good design should stand up to most ordinary use of this kind, but it's possible that accumulated wear and tear has "worn out the maggots." c. if it gets disassembled. High-efficiency PM motors have strong enough magnetization in the permanent magnet parts that the magnetic field "has to have someplace to go" at all times. In the assembled motor, the other half (rotor or stator, whichever isn't the permanent magnet) provides a closure for the magnetic loop. If the two are separated, the loop closes back through the permanent magnet and it effectively "demagnetizes" itself. Before the parts of the motor are separated, it's necessary to place "keeper" rings/parts on the magnet to close the loop - before the other half of the motor is removed. If the keepers aren't installed, the magnets usually will loose at least half(?) their strength, and it's very difficult to re-magnetize them. Bottom line: if anybody without proper tools and knowledge has "taken apart" a PM motor, it isn't really much of a motor any more - so it naturally will take a lot more juice to make it do anything. A few motor shops may be able to do something with one, but replacement of the motor is the normal fix. Not a cheap fix, usually. The above are sort of "exotica for your tech guy" probably. I really suspect that your guess - insanity of the controller brain - is the most likely problem. There are quite a few gasoline powered small utility vehicles advertised as handicap transporters, but they're generally intended strictly for outdoor use. I doubt that you'll find anything gasoline (or propane) powered that most retail shops can allow inside for shopping. In addition to the smoke and fumes, and noise, something on the order of 18 or 20 inches wide is about all most small retail shop layouts can squeeze through the aisles. Shopping carts in large groceries may go up to about 26"(?) but not much wider. If something that's "outdoor only" would suffice, used golf carts may be fairly easy to come across. A full replacement of the 6 (or rarely 8) 6V batteries commonly used will likely cost nearly as much as you'd expect to pay for a working used cart, and about 2 - 3 year battery life between replacements is common, according to the pros at the golf course. (In my area, used ones usually hit the open market just about 30 minutes before they need a full set of new batteries.) John |
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16 Mar 06 - 02:42 AM (#1694903) Subject: RE: BS: buying a rider mower From: open mike I recently watched (again)the Straight Story -- a movie with Richard Farnsworth and Harry dean Stanton-- apparently a true story about Alvin Strait (sp?) who lost his driver's lisence and wanted to visit his elderly brother once before they both died. he rode a riding lawn mower/tractor several hundered miles in order to visit and make peace with his brother with whom he had been quarelling for years. The unit was apparently a John Deere, and was prominently shown thruout the movie. A touching story, and a great testimonial for J.D. tractors...that green machine got him where he wanted to go! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0166896/fullcredits |