BS: Price of Gas

16 Aug 05 - 01:27 AM (#1542862)
Subject: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,Pearl

I just paid $50.00 to gas- up the car. I truly hope the people who voted for Bush and his gang are HAPPY! What do you expect when you elect a person who is beholden to big corporations, and this unnessasary war isn't helping. Why doesn't Bush go to his buddies, the Saudis, and pressure them instead of taking some time off (five weeks) What a big zero we have in the White House!

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16 Aug 05 - 01:53 AM (#1542864)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: CarolC

What kind of car do you drive, Pearl?

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16 Aug 05 - 04:06 AM (#1542901)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Paul Burke

That's REALLY cheap, unless the car is very small. It costs me about 57 UKP ($100) to fill up with diesel - that's a 60 litre (16 USG) tank.

But most of it here is tax, partly in a slightly forlorn attempt to wean people off using it too much.

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16 Aug 05 - 04:56 AM (#1542936)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,noddy

Eat lots of cabbage and you get lots of gas FREEE.....

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16 Aug 05 - 05:05 AM (#1542943)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Liz the Squeak

I can remember the apoplexy my father had when petrol hit 95pence per gallon.... if he knew it were that for a litre (just over 2 pints), he'd be rotating in his tomb!

LTS

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16 Aug 05 - 09:16 AM (#1543024)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,G

Why is it GWs fault? Seriously, I don't know.

I do know the price of crude is set by OPEC and that the refinerys have to blend more 'grades' than necessary due to individual States requirements. If Congress would have established one environmental grade years ago, we would be paying a lot less today.

Additionally, demand helps to dictate the price. If we (SUVs, inefficient autos, etc) were not using so much, the price would drop to encourage us to buy.

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16 Aug 05 - 09:17 AM (#1543025)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Rapparee

A story this morning in the news says that inflation in the US went up 0.5% during July, mostly because of petrol prices. That's 6% a year. I'm getting a 1% "cost of living adjustment" in my salary and am damned lucky to get that.

It highlights, underscores, italicizes, and bolds the need for the world to get off the oil teat. Hybrid vehicles are only part of the answer -- it's going to require a massive change in the way we travel and think.

Problem is, the "developed countries" have "demonstrated" to those less so that petroleum consumption is one of the earmarks of development and so very much of the world's economy is now slanted towards petroleum use (look at plastics, for just one example of many).

Of course, the problems facing the world are Hydra-headed because each problem (overpopulation, poverty, hunger, resource depletion, etc.) has manifold causes itself. A globally holistic view is needed, and I honestly don't see the politicians developing one.

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16 Aug 05 - 10:02 AM (#1543058)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bill D

My grandparents saw the very beginning of serious petroleum use.....my children will see the end of serious petroleum use. That, my friends, is about 200 years. 4 generations in the history of the world.

"It was all so different before everything changed."

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16 Aug 05 - 10:24 AM (#1543077)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: number 6

It's not the price I pay at the pump that worries me ... since I have the choice to control how far and often I drive ... it's the cost of the necesseties that will be affected (food, home heating, power) ... our economy is very energy 'driven' ... it's gonna hit us hard on every thing we use.

sIx

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16 Aug 05 - 10:38 AM (#1543085)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,Larry K

Petrolium is a huge concern.   We can make electricity from coal, nuclear, wind, solar, biomass, natural gas, hydro and geothermal.

We basically can only make petrolium from oil.   Bio Diesel is a nice option but way too small to have a serious impact.

Experts say there are 1 trillion barrels of oil in the earth. We currently use about 30 billion barrels a year and with India and China, it is growing by 1-2 billion barrels a year.   Do the math.

We have about a 25 year supply.   Lets suppose the experts are wrong and we have two trillion barrells left- double what we thought.   That only buys us 11 more years at the projected growth rates.

Hyrogen will allow us to run cars from coal or nuclear, but it will not be mainstream until 2020 according to the people I spoke with at the Hydrogen energy park in Southfield Michigan.   (rode in a hydrogen car- pretty cool)

Oil will continue to get more expensive as it is harder to find and more expensive to extract.   

I said these things on a nationally synidcated radio show a few months ago and my friend accused me of trying to scare everybody.   He doesn't say that today.

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16 Aug 05 - 11:21 AM (#1543128)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: number 6

The problem with hydrogen is the large amount of energy used to create it. From what I understand it is not a reasonable viable substitute for petroleum.

Our society has developed such a need for petroleum energy. This need or way of life being big box stores, our food demands are not regional, rather imported from distant sources. This process is escalating at such a rapid pace that the high price of fuel is certainly going to impact us pretty hard. We are going to have to find 'another way' but not soon enough. In the interim there will be a high price to pay, and when a remedy to this issue is found it will radically change our way of life, so radical it will in all probability cause some social disorders.

sIx

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16 Aug 05 - 11:57 AM (#1543157)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Dave the Gnome

if he knew it were that for a litre (just over 2 pints),

Stop confusing me Liz! You know I'm a very dim little Gnome...

A litre is 1.75 UK (20 fl oz) pints (ish) UNLESS of course you are refering to American (16 fl oz) pints in which case a litre is around 2.2 pints!

Now, you hadn't moved to the US last time I looked so is the South East of England now serving smaller pints than oop t'north? Wouldn't surprise me. Charge enough for it anyway...

BTW - back on thread - paid 98.9p per litre for BP premium diesel the other day. It does go further than standard but doesn't it seem dear:-(

Cheers

dtG

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16 Aug 05 - 12:07 PM (#1543164)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST

I seem to remember a website "UK" that you could visit to see what fuel was cheapest in your area, anyone know the name of one that still exists?

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16 Aug 05 - 12:51 PM (#1543220)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: CarolC

Pearl paid a hell of a lot more than 50 dollars for that tank of gas.

She also paid for all of the corporate welfare that the oil companies receive from the US government (taxpayers). She is paying through the nose for the wars and covert operations that the US government is waging around the world to secure sources of oil. She is paying the health costs that result from the toxins released into the environment by the use of oil as an energy source. She is paying for the costs to clean up the environment caused by the use of oil as an energy source.

I don't know how much the hidden costs add up to for that tankfull, but I'll hazard a guess that it's enough to put her off using gas forever if she knew the true cost of that tank of gas.

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16 Aug 05 - 01:02 PM (#1543230)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,number 6 (at work)

In regards to toxins, dirty environment we are all pretty well guilty for that .... how many of us drive hybrids, or do not own a car at all, ... how may of us use alternate methods of heating our homes, or use air conditioning, ... we all use products that are trucked in (long distances) to our localities ... especially us in Canada and the U.S. ?

I'm afraid we all have to wake up pretty fast.

sIx

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16 Aug 05 - 01:19 PM (#1543255)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Peace

Moot point--all of the above--within forty years. There will be none left.

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16 Aug 05 - 01:21 PM (#1543257)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Stilly River Sage

Ecological Footprint Quiz (it isn't perfect, but it gives you a rough idea)

SRS

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16 Aug 05 - 01:46 PM (#1543280)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: pdq

We would have plenty of oil if we did not have so many f**king people!!!

World population is experiencing an unprecidented growth. The 'developed world' brought almost all serious diseases under control in the last 70 years or so. Every day ships and planes leave the US with food, medical personel and supplies, headed to countries in the 'third world'.

Result: world population right now stands at 6.5 BILLION people!

The Third World has donated another 300 million babies just since president Bush was inaugurated in Jan 2001. Yep, the same as the population of the US in just four years. Trouble is, all the new arrivals are 100% consumer / 0 % producer.

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16 Aug 05 - 01:57 PM (#1543288)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,petr

rubbish pdq, you make it sound as if the 300 million born in the third world are huge users of energy. Well the 280 million or so in the US use up and pollute way more than those in the 3rd world.
5% of the worlds population using a 25% Of its energy supplies, and growing.

There really isnt any one energy solution but many diverse ones, for instance geothermal, ethanol, solar, wind, nuclear,..

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16 Aug 05 - 02:05 PM (#1543293)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bev and Jerry

some good things about the rising price of gasoline

Bev and Jerry

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16 Aug 05 - 02:17 PM (#1543302)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: pdq

ptr...if you work hard enough at misunderstanding something, you will ceratinly succeed.

We send the 'third world' huge amounts of food which we grow in the US. Food grown here is a more expensive and energy-consuming that the same crop grown in, say, Africa. We also use huge amounts of aviation fuel and/or gas/diesel to deliver it 1/2 way accross the planet.

If the world, as a whole, would settle on a plan for zero population growth, we could work on many problems, not just oil depletion. Read war, polution, etc. Every baby born, no matter where, pushes the solution these problems farther away.

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16 Aug 05 - 02:24 PM (#1543306)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Ebbie

I've got the solution: Kill every third child in the US. That, coupled with the die-off in less civilized countries will solve our problems handily.

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16 Aug 05 - 02:27 PM (#1543309)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,number 6 (at work)

good article Bev and Jerry, or is it Bev or is it Jerry.

This energy crisis is a lot more complicated than trying to fill our gas tanks. A lot of these distant solutions on the horizon are not going to cut it, that is for mass viabel alternative . These solutions in themselves are energy driven to provide ... cost of producing hydrogen, the cost of producing solar panels (for every house, every office tower).

Anyway ... I beleive one major solution is that we will have to become more regionalized or community sufficient. That means in agriculture, providing the fulfillment of our daily goods that we require. Our own commuities will have to thrive, maybe bringing us back in touch not only in our environment but with ourselves.

It will mean the end of 'gated communities, the Walmarts, the home depots, 2 cars per family ... the generel excessivness that has grasped our society ... an execssivenss that has brought only hollow hopes and happiness.

sIx

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16 Aug 05 - 02:27 PM (#1543310)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: PoppaGator

It should be pretty obvious that the human race should be well underway in the effort to develop new sources for energy as well asd strategies for using the energy sources we currently have. There are historical forces moving in a constructive direction regardig these matters, but these forces are terribly underrepresented in the US Government right now.

GWB may not be personally responsible for the current squeeze, and things might not be too much better under any mainsteam "Republicat" President, BUT: Bush has certainly done everything in his power to favor the corporate interests most strongly committed to maintaining the most wasteful and inequitable aspects of the status quo.

Fellow Americans: don't expect too much sympathy from our overseas friends. Motorists in the UK and throughout Europe have been paying the equivalent of about four dollars a gallon for years. We're all in shock to see the price jump so suddenly from a dollar and a quarter all the way up to two and a half, but we're still getting off relatively cheaply, believe it or not.

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16 Aug 05 - 02:45 PM (#1543325)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: CarolC

US companies send a lot of food to third world countries, not for the benefit of the people in the third world countries, but to enhance their own bottom line. The better approach would be to stop flooding the markets of third world countries with our heavily subsidized (subsidized by US taxpayers) agricultural products (making it impossible for local farmers to compete), and to help the people in the third world countries become better producers of their own food.

This is not a difficult thing to do, by the way. Some organizations that are providing micro-loans to farmers in third world countries for things like foot powered water pumps, are helping those farmers to exponentially increase their yield per acre.

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16 Aug 05 - 03:05 PM (#1543340)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bunnahabhain

I know this isn't the point, but....


One thing that various people seem to have forgotton is that you can reform coal into petroleum. In simple terms, it's split and reassambled into smaller hydrocarbons, which tend to be in the petrol-diesel range

It's not an easy process, and it's dirty, but it works. The only two places I know it has been done at scale is Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa, neither of which could import oil. The US has huge coal reserves. So does the UK and Australia, and quite a bit of Western Europe.

We should be building serious nuclear power plants, actually do the research to get fusion working, and expect fairly much everything to run on batteries or hydrogen. We will not get the developed world to use less energy. We might get manage to change the source of it though.

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16 Aug 05 - 05:00 PM (#1543411)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: number 6

In contrast to our European friends who pay a much higher gas price it should be noted that the price jump is significant to us in North America due to the distant we have to travel .... there is a considerable distance in getting our foods from California and Florida upto the Northeast, our manufactured goods from Michigan to Florida ... our families live farther apart ... it certainly will be much costlier to drive from St. Louis to see mom and dad in Conneticut at Thanksgiving, our daily commuting distance is much further .... in short the demographics are much, much different than Europe.

sIx

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16 Aug 05 - 05:20 PM (#1543423)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bobert

Hey, folks this ain't nuthin but...

... Dick Cheney's Energy Policy at work which is based on:

    1. Consumption

    2. Maximum profits fir his oil buddies

Bobert's solutions:

    1. Conservation

    2. Higher per gallon retail pump prices for SUV's and
       other gas guzzlers

    3. Windfall profits tax (retroactive)

    4. Greater tax credits for alternative energy sources

    5. Better mass tansit

    6. Cummuter taxes based on number of miles from job

    7. More bike trails

    8. Tax credits for live-work-live developements/redevelopements

    9. Don't vote fir oilmen to run yer country

    10. Walk more

Bobert

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16 Aug 05 - 05:30 PM (#1543435)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Liz the Squeak

Little under, little over.. what the hell, it's still bloody expensive!

LTS

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16 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM (#1543498)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,marks

Just took, and passed, (yeah!) my local motorcycle drivers course. A medium sized bike gets 70 mpg. If I can now convince my wife to let me BUY one, I can start making my own little effoet for conservation.
Mark

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16 Aug 05 - 07:23 PM (#1543518)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bill D

pdq has it right...population is THE major issue (or will be soon)...whether we run out of oil or not, we cannot support 50 billion people.

and by the way... "Motorists in the UK and throughout Europe have been paying the equivalent of about four dollars a gallon for years."

...yep, but most of them don't have to drive nearly as far as folks in the USA...I went to Madison, Wisconsin last week, (with a traveling companion buying the gas)...1700 miles round trip. I could simply have not afforded the trip on my own. We have people who commute 2 hours EACH WAY, 5 days a week....and sit in traffic a lot, too. People have been warned for years, but it takes a major hit to get them to decide to change habits, and some habits can't BE undone in a few years. There will be pain..........

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16 Aug 05 - 07:31 PM (#1543533)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: The Fooles Troupe

Price of Gas

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16 Aug 05 - 07:34 PM (#1543538)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: PoppaGator

It is of course true that in the US, we "have to" drive much greater distances than residents of other countries. Part of this (such as the building of far-flung suburbs) is because we have been spoiled by artificially low (or, at least, temporarily low) petroleum prices.

The problem is redoubled for some folks, because the same individuals who enjoy their high-salaried high-pressure jobs and move to the most distant (and most lily-white) suburbs are the same people who are compelled to display their wealth and conspicuous consumption by buying the most ostentatious gas-guzzling vehicles. Now they're paying $50-60 or more, twice a week, to fill up!

While I've always kind of looked down my nose at this type of person, some folks that I know and even somewhat like (e.g., some of my co-workers) definitely fall into this category, and I find myself feeling a little bit of sympathy for their poor misgiuded selves. Just a little bit!

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16 Aug 05 - 08:04 PM (#1543557)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: jpk

one of the biggest causes of the rapid rise in fuel prices,is not really the source.
it is the damn stock market,well the commodeties traders in particularly,those are the real culprits.
they also refer to it as the futures market,buy and selling what does not yet exist,same as enron when they were hot.

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16 Aug 05 - 08:06 PM (#1543558)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: number 6

One of the reasons we live right in town ... 10 minute walk to work, close access to all the amenities. Sometimes I think it would be nice to live out in the country ... but think we'll stay where we are.

We drove up to Moncton on the weekend ... 1.5 hr each way ... cost $38 cdn round trip ... used to think nothing of it ... now it's a different deicision.

sIx

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16 Aug 05 - 08:07 PM (#1543559)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Shanghaiceltic

Gas prices are rising in China too. The current price for 93 grade is 4.28 RMB/lt thats about US$.52 a liter. That is expensive when compared against local pay.

It is not only gas we should be concerned about but water too. Only 3% of the water on this planet is drinkable and much of that 3% polluted. Water conflicts have already started in many countries, countries daming rivers upstream of another etc, huge extraction rates, all resulting in dry river beds. The problem is bad and getting worse in China. There are very few water treatment plants, why? Well the cost of water here hardly covers the processing and cleaning. I pay about US$8 a month for my water when I lived in the UK it was the equivalent of USD75 a month. As a result and because the older houses are not metered many people just leave taps and hoses running.

There are alternative energy sources for gas but non alternative sources for water.

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16 Aug 05 - 08:14 PM (#1543566)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bobert

That's what I'm talkin' about, sIx... Tax credits for live-work-play communities where folks don't have to drive to do a danged thing...

Bobert

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16 Aug 05 - 08:34 PM (#1543581)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Rapparee

Here are some things that this futuring conference I'm at expects:

1. By 2020 we'll be on the back side of a petroleum-based economy and cultural. Getting there will be painful.

2. The problems the "developed" world have and will have are being papered over for short term gain.

3. China and India will overtake ("rear-end collision") the US no later than 2015. This will cause a "panic" in the US similar to the one caused by Sputnik in 1957 -- and the US will again launch a massive education drive.

4. WW3 is not foreseen, although terrorist acts, including radiologic attacks, are.

5. New energy sources will be coming online around 2010.

6. The middle class is dying out, and the have-have not gap will widen.

7. Retirement as it has been understood will not be an option. You'll probably work, in several careers, until you die or are too disabled to work.

8. World populations will fall by 2050.

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16 Aug 05 - 08:54 PM (#1543592)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Amos

JPK:

Your ignorance is wonderful to behold. Futures selling is not the same as Enron except in the most superficial way.

A

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17 Aug 05 - 05:39 AM (#1543747)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Dave the Gnome

I am not a great one for conspiricy theories but yogurt - of all things - got me thinking once! I was living in Belgium at the time and noticed that a huge portion of the Yogurt on the supermarket shelves was made in England. When I got back home to the UK I checked out the local supermarket and, true to what I remembered, most of the Yogurt was made in France. Now, it didn't make sense to me at all to have all that rancid cow juice (I do like it btw - but remember that is all it is - not a particulary important commodity) shipped all over Europe. The lorries carting the cream of Kent must have been passing the camions lugging the latins of Loire in the chunnel! Why?

Unless of course it was to keep the petrol companies going;-)

Cheers

DtG

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17 Aug 05 - 06:10 AM (#1543755)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Dave the Gnome

latins? lactins! Not sure if there are any Romans left in France...

:D

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17 Aug 05 - 06:33 AM (#1543763)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,UK petrol

Does anyone remember a website "UK" that you could visit to see cheapest fuel in your area, anyone know the name of one that still exists?

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17 Aug 05 - 07:35 AM (#1543786)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: The Fooles Troupe

Australian imports from China have now exceeded Australian imports from USA. Most Australian industries have now closed down - Aust wages $17 hr - China 70c hr - who cares WHAT the transport costs!

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17 Aug 05 - 07:40 AM (#1543790)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Peter K (Fionn)

Pearl, you sound like a spoilt bitch to me. Try looking at life in some other parts of the world.

Pdq, you're talking utter crap. Many of those 300 million "idle poor" were born in the countries that are stocking US shelves. When did you last buy a watch or t-shirt made in the US?

As Bill D says, we've seen the problem coming for years. But the US chose to ignore it rather than have anything interfere, ever so slightly, with the pampered lifestyles of the country's "haves," including those who can afford to swan off on 1700-mile round trips at the drop of a hat. (If you'd been born with a different colour of skin, Bill, chances are you couldn't have made that trip, however important you think it was.)

But that's OK, because Bill and pdq have a better solution: get rid of the "have nots."

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17 Aug 05 - 09:39 AM (#1543904)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Rapparee

You're wrong, Peter. I've just finished two long air trips* and skin colors were varied as the rainbow. As for automobile trips -- I can't speak for the UK, but in the US skin color makes no difference. The choice is driving or flying -- train travel is close to nonexistent and you DON'T want to take a long-distance bus.

On these trips I met Tlingits, Athabascans, Blacks, Caucasians, Japanese, Inuits, Yupiks, Aleuts, and folks from India. Except for the Germans none of them seemed particularily wealthy and indeed some were fairly obviously of "lower economic status."





*one from Salt Lake City of DC and another from Pocatello to Juneau. Round trips, I must add.

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17 Aug 05 - 11:24 AM (#1543992)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,Larry K

I agree with Bobert (now that's a first) on the need to coserve and the use of tax credits and public tranportation.   Unfortunately, the american public won't react till there is a crisis.   (PS- the next crisis will be the price of natural gas this winter)

I went to a renewable energy conference in Wisconsin a few months ago that did a few seminars on the end of cheap oil.   They sought of agred with Rapaire that the oil shortage will cause deaths and wars in the coming years- except they saw this mainly between third world countries and the major industrialized countries will find ways of getting their oil first.   This will leave the third world countries to fight it out for what is left.

I went to a Federal Reserve Bank Energy Forum in Detroit last year.   An executive from GM made a presentation on why it is bad for the USA to have higher gas mileage in cars.   Rather bazarre presentation. It just shows the thinking (or lack of thinking) at GM.    The people who get hurt by that are the auto workers who get laid off.

I was at a hydrogen energy park in Southfield Michigan a month ago and was told hydrogen will not be mainstream until 2020.

(does anyone outside the energy community or some of the people in this forum get that this is a crisis yet?)

A possible solution:   About 905 of all driving in the USA is under 20 miles.    There are full electric cars in the market that get 20 miles on a charge.   Shouldn't the government make incentives and tax credits sot that people use the electric cars for their short trips and hybrids or regular cars for their long trips?    How much gas do we waste picking up the kids, or shopping at the supermarket?

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17 Aug 05 - 09:57 PM (#1544470)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: jpk

if enron was not trading in commodities then what were they trading.
enron delt in energy.but they never drilled a well,transported a drop of oil or eletricty,never refined or generated any petrol products or electricty.
then what in hades name did they deal in.
buy commodities i mean energy,not the rest[wheat gold copper etc].

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17 Aug 05 - 10:11 PM (#1544473)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: jpk

ps. enron fell for it's crooked books,not it's shady deals.

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17 Aug 05 - 11:01 PM (#1544504)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: CarolC

I could be wrong, but I think Enron was dealing in insurance against futures or something equally obscure and shady.

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18 Aug 05 - 12:23 AM (#1544543)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: coldjam

Glad to see so many 'catters aren't falling for the "George Bush is responsible" line. If you think things would have been significantly different with Kerry you are sadly naieve.They are two side to the same coin. There are forces bigger than George running things. We'll be at, or over, $3.00 a gal by years end...I'd bet on it. We average folk will forever be at the mercy of the rich and powerful, even in this democracy...get used to it.

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18 Aug 05 - 12:31 AM (#1544547)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,.coldjam

3.00 a gallon is still cheap - go to the EU - and 5.00 plus is norm.

Be continually thankful you live in a rich, Rich, RICH nation....where most juevenial malnutrition is a voluntary choice afert hours of indoctrination from SlipKnot and MudVayne.

The real "crunch" for most is between a full-tank in the SUV and Star-buck's-Mocca-Frappacino- with extra cream.

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18 Aug 05 - 01:00 AM (#1544562)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: M.Ted

$3.00 by the end of the year? It it is $2.91 at a number of places around here right now--$3.00 by the end of the month is more like it--

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18 Aug 05 - 04:40 AM (#1544622)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,The Barden of England at work

Petrol is at least 89pence a litre here in the south of England. That comes to $6.10 per American Gallon and the prediction is that it will soon be £1 per litre so that will make it $6.85 per American gallon so $3 sounds great to me.

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18 Aug 05 - 04:40 AM (#1544624)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,noddy

it is about time you started to pay for polluting the rest of the world !

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18 Aug 05 - 05:18 AM (#1544642)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST

PeterK (Fiona)

Just where do you get off calling people racists and spoilt bitches? Its not the first time you've done it hear and it wont be the last most likley. not everyone is such a sanctimonious self satisfied git with there head so far up there own ass as you.

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18 Aug 05 - 06:08 AM (#1544657)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Peter K (Fionn)

Rapaire, sure people of all shades travel. I was talking about likelihoods. In the US, long-distance travel is a luxury more likely to be enjoyed by whites than blacks, just like any other luxury. Are you seriously trying to argue with that?

I hate to intrude on your belief that colour makes no difference, since it must bring you comfort. But look around you. For a start, one in every three blacks aged 18-21 ain't going anywhere, because they're in jail.

I find it alarming that even beyond the many millions who voted Bush back, there are yet more Americans whose politics is driven by the "me, now" philosophy, as eloquently expounded by Pearl. What gives me hope is that there is a minority of Americans who hold to decent principles in the face of seemingly overwhelming odds - hold in fact to the dream of what America was supposed be all about.

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18 Aug 05 - 06:21 AM (#1544664)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,Mooh

Buck a litre for regular.

The same morons who complain about the price of gas at the local are the ones who buy cars for their kids to drive less than a mile to school, who drive around the block for a quart of milk, who idle their car when at the ATM or smoke shop, blah, blah, blah...

Most of our passtimes are energy driven, like travel, sports, and hobbies, and I say that while sitting in front of a computer made of unrecyclables, burning electricity. Think I'll go walk the dog.

I submit that a selfish society won't change its habits voluntarily, and selfish governments (for tax AND personal investment reasons) won't legislate change until it's too late, because it's already too late for them.

Countries will soon regret blowing their wad on war and consumerist ideals. Those investments could be saving the planet, finding energy alternatives and implementing them, etc.

I don't need a vehicle for most of my work, and the wife she car pools, but we should reduce our recreational fuel consumption.

Buck a litre, and climbing.

Peace, Mooh.

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18 Aug 05 - 06:54 AM (#1544679)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Kaleea

Unfortunately, not all of us are ablebodied enough to walk everywhere we go, even if every destination were "within normal walking distance." On a fixed income, it is nearly impossible to purchase a high mileage dependable car. Public transportation is quite lacking & expensive for the disabled. Carrying groceries & household goods while walking can be virtually impossible for some of us. If you want to know why we are dependent upon oil, consider a tidbit about solar energy which was in a petroleum journal a couple of decades ago. (I read it myself in an oil industry journal in my uncle's office in the Petroleum Building in Tulsa, Oklahoma)
    Just after turn of the 20th century (1900's), Soviet scientists met in the USA with other scientists of the world. The Soviet scientists offered their brilliant discoveries of solar energy to the "world."
    [If you recall, gasoline engines were being used in motorcars, motorcycles, et. al. at the time and the "powers that were" at the time had a great deal of their finances invested into the new (bacy then) fossil fuel-oil, natural gas, coal. There were already plans to build suburb type residential areas nearby factories & cities. There were already long range plans in development for highways.]
    The Soviet scientists were told, in short, thanks but no thanks.


    Now consider that automobiles were built, oil wells were drilled all over Texas, Oklahoma, Lousianna & anywhere they found oil, especially on "reservations" upon which dwelled indigenous Americans whom had been removed from their native lands-most of whom got no money as the mineral rights had been stolen from them. Housing developments were beginning to be built all over the USA to entice workers off the farms. The cars got bigger, and oil use increased until engineers sought off shore wells, and eventually went to the Middle East.

    A few years ago, the supreme court placed into office 2 Texas oilmen whose fortunes were established upon oil wells. The one known as "W" had a father who was once the head of the CIA & placed an oil buddy into office in Iraq. Then, his sons, who had a weapons business sold arms to that oil buddy in Iraq.
(this info has been on the news in previous years, & public knowledge, but evidently "forgotten" by most of the public during the elections)
    Now you know the rest of the story.

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18 Aug 05 - 07:43 AM (#1544703)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST

bringing it back to music,as a pro of some years standing I'm having to turn down bookings from folk clubs I would have accepted in the past because taking the cost of getting to and from a booking 200 miles from home, paying my agent's commission and then paying tax on the remainder makes the stress and effort of the driving etc not worth the candle, and tying two or three gigs together gets harder by the week as clubs close or are only available on the same two or three days of the week. Therefore I have to find less work for more money. I'm sure this is getting to be true for most pros, but I can't imagine what it's doing to the aspirations of all the young folk musicians coming out of the Universities etc who hope to make a living from their music.No one will be on the road ten years from now at this rate, except those who can fill small theatres at least. And will the audience be able to afford to travel to the venue, buy the tickets and get the essential cd? Seems to me the british folk music scene will soon be like that in America or Canada, locally based with a few travelling superstars, and Summer festivals.

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18 Aug 05 - 08:36 AM (#1544747)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Donuel

Please keep in mind that all this is happening while ALL TIME record profits are being reaped by Exxon, Mobile and others.

OPEC is but one member of the club.

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18 Aug 05 - 08:49 AM (#1544757)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Paul Burke

"    Just after turn of the 20th century (1900's), Soviet scientists met in the USA with other scientists of the world. The Soviet scientists offered their brilliant discoveries of solar energy to the "world." "

Soviets in 1900? Possiblynot.

But seriously, the problem was already well established then- around London the railway companies like the LBSCR, the LCDR, the SECR and the Metropolitan, were building railways speculatively, in the confident hope that the houses would follow, and commuters would pay their fares into the city. I think the same was happening in the USA, where electric interurbans led the way.

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18 Aug 05 - 09:01 AM (#1544766)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Donuel

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/gasprice.jpg



A modern Montazuma revenge: http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushburst9.jpg

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18 Aug 05 - 11:25 AM (#1544898)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: M.Ted

Everyone,understand this--the major "consumer" gas consumption is not recreational--it is work related--many, many people commute between 50 and 90 miles a day, or more--and, even in the major metropolitan areas, there is very little public transportation---and most people do not live within walking distance of shopping areas--

PeterK(Fionn)--What you say about blacks not travelling while whites travel is not true--I can assure you that blacks families own cars in nearly the same proportion as whites--and they drive just as much, if not more, for "recreation"--Furthermore, blacks tend to like, and buy, the same gas guzzling SUV's as whites(and others, because the US is not a black/white kind of place)--

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18 Aug 05 - 12:12 PM (#1544951)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,Number 6

Well said Mooh ... behind what ya said 100%.

Just came back from lunch ... walked home, walked the dog and walked back to work.

It's $1.12 (and climbing) a litre here in Saint John.

sIx

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18 Aug 05 - 01:09 PM (#1545000)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Ebbie

Le'ts revisit a truth: In the UK, the major reason for gas/petrol being so expensive is that you are paying and prepaying for a number of amenities and social issues with the money tacked on top of what the petrol companies garner.

In the US, the major reason for gasoline being so expensive is that the oil companies, both foreign and domestic, are having a bonanza.

As an analogy, look at cigarettes. The other day I passed by a storefront that advertised major brand cigarettes. They were over $48.00 a carton! (When I stopped smoking, I had been paying $5.05 for a carton.)

This is Alaska. Several years ago they slapped 'sin' taxes on tobacco products, which is why the prices are so high today. That means that it is not the tobacco companies who get to put those moneies in their pockets. It is the State - we, the people - who are paying and prepaying some related expenses with that extra money.

Windfall profits versus social planning. Hard to argue with the logic.

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18 Aug 05 - 01:49 PM (#1545028)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: PoppaGator

I know that this discussion is not primarily about race, but I feel compelled to make this observation:

Not all black people in the US are desperately poor; indeed, large numbers are "middle class" (although many of us who are used to describing ourselves as "middle class" are now living from paycheck to paycheck, just getting by, and not nearly so comfortably-middle-class as we used to be). However, it is equally true that most of the very poorest Americans are black.

It is quite true that significant numbers of Americans who enjoy recreational travel and who own late-model gas-guzzling vehicles are indeed black, and also brown, red, and yellow.

On the other hand, if you ride the bus in almost any large US city*, you will observe that the overwhelming majority of the riders ~ that is, almost all of the people who must rely on our inadequate public transporation system to get around ~ are African Americans.

And it is also true, as someone observed, that a huge percentage of young black males are in jail and therefore not engaging in travel of any kind.

*New York City is an exception. Everyone takes the subway, except the wealthiest, who stick to taxicabs and "car services." Driving is just too much trouble, and there isn't room for everyone to have a car; the cost of renting a parking spot can be higher than the cost of a modest home or apartment in a smaller town!

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18 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM (#1545223)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Rapparee

I can only report what I have seen with my own eyes. Blacks, reds, yellows, whites, flying or driving. While I didn't count that people on the airplanes I've flown on, the planes were full and I would ESTIMATE that the various skin colors were present in about the same ratio as they are in the population at large.

However!

The governments of the so-called "developed countries" have for a very long time papered over the problems, encouraging the people to believe that there would be plenty of fuel forever or at least for a very long time. That energy conservation and the development of alternative energy resources was irrelevant. That gasoline would always be cheap and available. Now this is coming back to bite us all.

And please don't tell me, with a snug smile, that you've known this all along. That you recycle, drive a non-guzzling car, have a "green"
house and office. I've been doing those things since at least 1970.

There is a problem. It can be solved. The solution is going to take both personal and political action. Stop wasting energy pointing fingers and get on with the solutionS.

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19 Aug 05 - 01:38 AM (#1545469)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: mdricha

Gas prices are demand and supply..based on one year in advance. Want lower prices? Quite whinning..walk more..lower the supply . Take a bus..carpool. As far as the price goes..hmm..last time i saw lines was when Jimmy Carter was president..oh..the one who bothced the ..nm

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19 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM (#1545733)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Rapparee

Yeah. That was right before Ronny lied about sending stuff to Iran, wasn't it? And before Ronny's tax "cuts" did away with all of the incentives to save energy and develop alternate sources?

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19 Aug 05 - 12:52 PM (#1545766)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST

I'm whining about the price of gas .... because it directly affects the price of home fuel oil, and other necessities such as food. Where we live, we greatly depend on fossil fuels to heat our homes and most of our food is trucked in. There are a lot of elderly people and working poor here in the Maritimes who are going to have a hard, hard winter. These and the working poor live in substandard housing, older homes that are insufficiently insulated ... the price of vegetables, fruits are already pretty high here and the price can only go up further ... frankly it is going to be one hard winter here in the Canadian Maritimes, unless there is some sort of tax releif for these people. I agree with Ebbie that sin taxes are good, but is home heating fuel a sin?

sIx

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19 Aug 05 - 12:53 PM (#1545767)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: number 6

BTW ... Guest up above (12.52) is me Six.

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19 Aug 05 - 01:02 PM (#1545777)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: CarolC

Carter put solar panels on the White House. Reagan took them off.

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19 Aug 05 - 01:08 PM (#1545782)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: number 6

... that's because they need the space for a security watch platform.

sIx

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19 Aug 05 - 01:24 PM (#1545794)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: CarolC

LOL, and also the missile launcher.

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19 Aug 05 - 01:28 PM (#1545799)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: number 6

HaHa ... it's true Carol, have you seen that security platform on the roof ... and ya better beleive they are up there looking at ya.

sIx

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19 Aug 05 - 01:33 PM (#1545805)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: CarolC

Yes indeed, sIx.

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19 Aug 05 - 02:52 PM (#1545868)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: M.Ted

Sort of an extension of/response to what Rapaire has to say--yes, we knew about this 30 years ago--

I seem to remember, back circa 1972- that a whole generation was turning its back on the war mongering materialistic consumerism of the past, getting back to nature, learning to work with its hands, grow its own food, and celebrate our cultural differences by playing acoustic music--

So why is it that these progressive folks turned into the shoppingest, garbage-makingest, canned music listenest, packaged food eatingest world messing, bomb-droppingest bastards that ever walked the face of the earth? Inquiring minds want to know--

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19 Aug 05 - 03:09 PM (#1545884)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: pdq

They turned their backs on the Christian ethics that once held this country together. Sorry, M.Ted, but that is what happened.

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19 Aug 05 - 03:52 PM (#1545907)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Rapparee

No, pdq. They turned their backs on ethics. Ethics has no religion.

They also turned to greed.

DON'T STOP TO REST
(Song for Phil Ochs)
Steve Romanoff

Relax, relax in photographs of places where you've been,
Where nothing new can worry you, you've earned a rest, my friend,
The riot tears and rebel years have vanished with the din,
Of young bureaucrats and slapping backs and prizes they can win,

You've seen them all at city hall, you've seen them in the street,
You've seen them masquerading where the better people meet,
Convinced at last those days are past when they should give a damn
About the anguish in the world, about the future in their hands.

        You've heard the promise of the evil men
        Don't stop to rest or we'll come back again,
        If you remember then you ought to know,
        Don't stop to rest 'cause we've got far to go.

Come all you young-eyed citizens, a story I will tell,
Of how a Great Society was going all to hell,
But children who resembled you were brought up on a war,
Had had their fill of overkill and said they'd fight no more,

It cost them miles of marching and it cost them years of pain,
Before their fathers realized their kids were not insane,
But now we're all executives too busy to recall
The days of righting what was wrong, the words of writing on the wall.

        Chorus

Now don't misunderstand me 'cause I mean just what I say,
Old pledges made in passion still should mean something today,
You've done your bit, don't go and sit behind your groaning board,
And let the scrivener set down, you've given all you could afford.

        Chorus

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19 Aug 05 - 05:22 PM (#1545972)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: GUEST,Mooh

$102.5 this morning. Rosie The Wonder Dog will have to learn to pull a wagon now.

Peace, Mooh.

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20 Aug 05 - 10:14 AM (#1546280)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: RangerSteve

It's 2.49 in New Jersey, except along the Delaware River, where it's 2.69. The reason for this is that it's even more expensive in Pennsylvania, and people will drive over the river to get the cheaper gas, not knowing that it's even cheaper if they drive a mile further.

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21 Aug 05 - 06:32 AM (#1546485)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: skarpi

It´s 114 krónur In Iceland pr liter , so it´s about a little over 2
dollar pr liter you have callons, you should try to run a can In Iceland it´s "$%&"&%&"#$%%$%$% harder than it´s for you.

So if you have it hard to run a car witch has cas , sell it and get disel or maybe we should go out and scream for hydrogen on cars,
we have the techn,,,, but the oil instr,,,, is holding it back
becouse they are afraid .

We have buses here In Reykjavík witch is on Hydrogen and it is working very well, and that is the future I hope, no black smoke no smell
just a white harmless puff as I call it.

All the best Skarpi Iceland.

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21 Aug 05 - 07:35 AM (#1546508)
Subject: RE: BS: Price of Gas
From: Bunnahabhain

Didn't the whole Icelandic fishing fleet convert to hydrogen a year or two back? Or was that just a plan that never happened?

(sorry about the thread drift...)

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