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08 Sep 05 - 01:47 AM (#1558784) Subject: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: GUEST,fiddler4143 A friend of mine told me several years ago that they believed Bush might very well be the anti-Christ! I just laughted. Now every time I see him on TV I think about what my friend said. Lord!!! I think they were right. |
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08 Sep 05 - 04:49 AM (#1558835) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Paul Burke Not all who cry Lord!!! Lord!!! will be saved. I don't give a sod if he's anti-christ or anti- freeze or antimacassar, or even antidisestablishmentarian. The problem is that he's anti-human and pro-oil and pro- money. |
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08 Sep 05 - 04:58 AM (#1558841) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Donuel Demonizing a devil is like gilding the lily. It is unessesary, but I have done both. |
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08 Sep 05 - 05:41 AM (#1558863) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: GUEST,Slim Eric No way he's the anti-Christ....the anti-Christ will have charisma! |
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08 Sep 05 - 06:02 AM (#1558871) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: The Fooles Troupe ... and intelligence! Remember - Jesus Saves - the Devil Invests! |
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08 Sep 05 - 06:25 AM (#1558893) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Sidewalk Bob Well, this thought has crossed my mind a few times and after his handlin' of Katrina I wouldn't doubt it... When handling situations I always ask myself "How would Jesus deal with this? and the answerI come up with are completely oppoiste of waht Bush does... I thought he was presented a wonderful opportunity with Katrina to let his so-called Faith shine through but it took Karl Rove tellin' him to go to New Orleans fir a photo op to get him near the joint.. Had Jimmy Carter been president we would have seen how a man with true Faith demonstartes it... MO... Bobert |
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08 Sep 05 - 06:54 AM (#1558902) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Paul Burke When handling situations I always ask myself "How would Jesus deal with this? I've often thought that when the drink runs out at parties. Good practical man he was. I'm not very fond of fish though. |
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08 Sep 05 - 07:08 AM (#1558909) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Wolfgang Yeah, Jesus did calm a dangerous storm once, and we have seen no attempt of Bush to do the same. Wolfgang |
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08 Sep 05 - 07:37 AM (#1558925) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk Perhaps the Anti-Christ lives in all of us... (just a thought) |
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08 Sep 05 - 07:42 AM (#1558929) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Amos I think you are giving him too much credit withthat powerful little word "the". I guess given all his screwups he may well be an anti-Christ, though. A |
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08 Sep 05 - 07:43 AM (#1558930) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: GUEST,G Little Hawk - an absolute profound statement! I never thought about it but................... Heavy stuff. |
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08 Sep 05 - 07:55 AM (#1558942) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk Thanks. |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:31 AM (#1558968) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: The Fooles Troupe Katrina has been referred to here on Aus media as Bush's 'anti-911'. |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:54 AM (#1558986) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Rapparee Well now. The ol' book of Revelations says a lot of things about the anti-Christ, but it never, ever, anywhere, says that he's stupid. |
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08 Sep 05 - 09:51 AM (#1559025) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace Just because he's anti-American doesn't mean he's the anti-Christ. Geroge B666 . . . . Then again . . . . |
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08 Sep 05 - 09:52 AM (#1559026) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: John O'L Some say Nostradamus has suggested that after the time of the third anti-Christ will come the thousand years peace. I suggest that we'll all be a lot happier when we get to the post-Bush era. |
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08 Sep 05 - 10:33 AM (#1559060) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Bill D piffle! There is no "anti-christ"----Bush is just a self-centered, incompetent fool with clever handlers. |
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08 Sep 05 - 10:42 AM (#1559066) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk Well, Bill, I suggest that the anti-Christ (if there is one) is the tendency within each one of us to be self-centered, cruel, violent, greedy, treacherous, dishonest, murderous, etc... And that tendency is there. The question is, do we let it control us or not? |
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08 Sep 05 - 11:07 AM (#1559085) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: GUEST,Arkie I have never been a student of the anti-christ concept, so my observations are casual at best. The anti-christ would be one who professed allegiance to God, one who proclaimed lofty goals of peace, liberty,and prosperity, but in reality practiced deception and when finally possessing power would reveal his true sinister character which would be oppressive and materialistic. This type of anti-christ could certainly be a puppet dangling from strings in someone else's control. |
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08 Sep 05 - 11:16 AM (#1559090) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Bill D "... tendency within each one of us..." I thought it was God-ness which was universal within each of us? Are all concepts everywhere at once? Yeah, I know that being human requires us to deal with a lot of conflicting urges, but I just can't wrap my head around too many generalizations. "... do we let it control us or not?" some do, some don't. *shrug* You & I don't....the rest of that 'we' is hard to know about. (yes...just Bill, again, being picky about language...) |
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08 Sep 05 - 11:17 AM (#1559091) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace . . . to say nothing of my anti zelda . . . . |
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08 Sep 05 - 12:05 PM (#1559113) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie I read a book on the prophecies of Nostradamus and he reckoned the 3rd anti christ would be called 'MABUS' ...Not a million miles from 'MR. BUSH' is it... |
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08 Sep 05 - 12:17 PM (#1559121) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: hesperis Bill D - yes, all concepts are everywhere at once. The difference is, some of us have a safety feature that prevents us from doing horrible things, and sometimes even about thinking of doing those things. But to be human means that we do have all possibilities of behaviour in us. So whether you believe in God or the Devil they are useful as abstractions for what is inside each human as a range of actions and chosen beliefs. |
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08 Sep 05 - 01:04 PM (#1559143) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: GUEST,fiddler4143 Thanks to all the thoughful posts! |
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08 Sep 05 - 01:15 PM (#1559152) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: CarolC "... tendency within each one of us..." I thought it was God-ness which was universal within each of us? Are all concepts everywhere at once? If you think of reality as being like a holograph, as some do, then yes... all concepts are everwhere at once. |
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08 Sep 05 - 01:22 PM (#1559156) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Bee-dubya-ell Nostradamus... reckoned the 3rd anti christ would be called 'MABUS' Surely he didn't mean Joel Mabus? Oh well, I guess we could do a lot worse than to have the anti-Christ turn out to be a picker. |
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08 Sep 05 - 04:09 PM (#1559258) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Wolfgang I read a book on the prophecies of Nostradamus and he reckoned the 3rd anti christ would be called 'MABUS' ...Not a million miles from 'MR. BUSH' is it... (Bruce Baillie) Go back to where you came from and read a bit. There are literally dozens of interpretations for 'Mabus' in the histroy of Nostradamus 'experts'. Just one recnet fanciful one (and many miles closer than the Bush idiocy, but still idiotic): Saddam, of course is 'Mabus'. Why? The anti-Christ means that you have to read the name in the mirror and then all doubts will leave. Century 2, Quatrain 62 Mabus plus tost alors mourra, viendra, De gens & bestes vn horrible defaite: Puis tout à coup la vengeance on verra, Cent, main, faim quand courra la comete. Mabus then will soon die, there will come A horrible undoing of people and animals: At once vengeance one will see vengeance, One hundred hands, thirst, famine, when the comet will run. Wolfgang (seeing without doubt now that only Saddam can have been meant by the verse) |
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08 Sep 05 - 04:26 PM (#1559264) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Wesley S I doubt that Shrub is the anti-christ - but I'm sure W would invite him to his next fund raiser. |
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08 Sep 05 - 05:30 PM (#1559294) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Bill D "If you think of reality as being like a holograph, as some do..." I don't....and I get one vote. ;>) (you may note that I don't make any claim about what reality IS like.. What we do have are many fanciful notions that mostly describe personal attitudes, often very poetically and emphatically expressed. I suppose you can say that this constitutes 'multiple concepts', but "everywhere at once" is a concept that, while having a certain ring to it, doesn't have a lot of substance when you try to explicate exactly what it might mean....kinda like transsubstantiation or multiple planes of existance. |
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08 Sep 05 - 05:36 PM (#1559301) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: *Laura* He can't be the anti-christ. Or if he is it's an accident and he hasn't realised it yet. Jeez - how scary would it be once he works it out!? xlx |
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08 Sep 05 - 05:52 PM (#1559314) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: dick greenhaus the anti-Einstein maybe? |
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08 Sep 05 - 06:00 PM (#1559316) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Cluin If Christ lives within each of us, so does the anti-Christ (whatever you think they both are). Two sides of the same coin. |
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08 Sep 05 - 06:02 PM (#1559319) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace So, like, is this gonna be like one of those "Alien" movies? |
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08 Sep 05 - 06:06 PM (#1559322) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Cluin Does it feel like a big single-minded hand has reached out and grabbed you by the face and forced its reproductive appendage down your throat? |
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08 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM (#1559326) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace LOLOLOL |
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08 Sep 05 - 06:28 PM (#1559342) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: CarolC I was just telling you about how some people perceive reality, Bill. I would NEVER attempt to tell you how you perceive reality. ;-) |
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08 Sep 05 - 07:06 PM (#1559372) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Donuel Science and religion clash again Take your average, ordinary run of the mill Jesus Christ made entirely out of anti matter, and you would have a son of God that try as he may...everthing he touches gets blown to hell. |
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08 Sep 05 - 07:06 PM (#1559373) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Bill D gee, Carol...how does it feel to be in the minority?..(meaning, most others don't feel that constraint not to keep me informed of what MY feelings must be...) ;>) |
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08 Sep 05 - 07:24 PM (#1559382) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Clinton Hammond George Bush---the anti-Christ? That gives him too much credit.... Besides, -I'm- the Anti-Christ! |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:07 PM (#1559409) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: CarolC I've always been in one minority or another, Bill. I'm quite used to it. ;-) |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:22 PM (#1559416) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Jack the Sailor I don't agree. Just because the Son of Bush performed the miracle of emaculate election, it doesn't mean he deserves to be crucified. |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:25 PM (#1559419) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq As the family doctor once remarked to CarolC's parents... "Good news. Your daughter Carol shows no signs of having used mind-expanding drugs." |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:27 PM (#1559421) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: CarolC I thought you said you "moderates" never make any personal attacks, pdq. |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:32 PM (#1559424) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Jack the Sailor As the surgeon once remarked to pdq. "Good news! Your humourectomy was a success!!" |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:32 PM (#1559425) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: CarolC Yes, here it is right here... http://www.mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1559194 Rapper - there cannot be an equal amount of shouting from Mudcat conservatives because there are none. Three or four moderates who state facts and opinion, but seldom (if ever) engage in personal attacks. Even DougR left this place in disgust over one month ago. I guess that either makes you the exception or a liar. Or maybe you're not a "moderate". |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:34 PM (#1559426) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq You are moderately right about that, but when was "needling" outlawed? |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:37 PM (#1559427) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq Thanks, Jack the Sailor. That was a proper response. |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:43 PM (#1559430) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: CarolC So when people you define as "moderates" do it, it's "needling", and when people you disagree with do it it's "personal attacks". Interesting dictionary you're using there, pdq. I'm not going to play that game with you, so you'll just have to play with yourself. |
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08 Sep 05 - 08:46 PM (#1559433) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq Don't worry about that, Carol, Bill Clinton had no further use for Monica and sent her to me. |
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09 Sep 05 - 01:02 AM (#1559508) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk Wow! What an epiphany. Yes, if there is really a specific Anti-Christ, then Clinton Hammond IS IT!!!!! (And he has volunteered proudly too. Well done, Clinton!) Aside from that, Bill, a big resounding YES to the "all concepts (are) everywhere at once" theory. Well, of course they are. But which ones do you choose to focus on, actualize, and put into effect in your life? That is the pertinent question. And that's really all there is to it. To say that "the Christ is within everyone" is accurate, "the Christ" being symbolic of our highest nature and potential. To say that "the devil" or "the anti-Christ" is within everyone is likewise accurate, those being symbolic of the lowest nature and most destructive potential. It's entirely up to you, me, and everyone else which aspects of our positive and negative potentialities we choose to bring forth at any given time, and that is what has driven every morality play in history! That choice. That is so dead simple. Please don't tell me that you can't grasp it, Bill, please! ;-) There's nothing mysterious about it whatsoever. I can't help it that you go numb between your synapses when you hear a "religious word" being used in a discussion... (grin) Just forget about organized religion for once, and think metaphorically, for heaven's sake. I don't belong to an organized religion nor do I need to to grasp such a concept as I have alluded to above. |
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09 Sep 05 - 05:29 AM (#1559595) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: freda underhill meanwhile, back at the universe and multiple realities.. Here are excerpts from an interview with Paul Davies. From what he says, it seems that according to the rules of quantum physics, there are two possible worlds: one with a left-moving electron, the other with a right-moving electron, and both of these worlds somehow co-exist in a hybrid reality. repeat: and both of these worlds somehow co-exist in a hybrid reality. after boggling on this one, read on to see why quantum physicists believe there are multiple dimensions..very similar, but with some differences. in fact, somewhere in another dimension, friida unterhill might be recording this in a website,, but with slight differences (she is wearing a different pair of fluffy lavender bedsocks, for example). read on .... Paul: Oh, I think I understand what is happening. At least, it is not a problem for me to imagine two worlds with two different things going on, projected on top of each other to form a hybrid, or overlapping reality. It is like taking two movies and projecting them onto the same screen although this simplifies things a bit because a quantum superposition entails an interference of images, not just an overlap. Phillip: Is it limited to two? Paul: No, it's not. Phillip: Does the theory not allow for an infinity of possibilities? Paul: Absolutely right, it does indeed. In the more general situation there are infinite possible outcomes of a scattering event or some other atomic process, and we must imagine an infinite number of alternative realities — or contenders for reality — superimposed upon each other; a superimposed reality. In this amalgam of possible worlds, each individual contender is a sort of ghostly half-reality — it is less than real, in the sense that true reality comes only when we look and see what is actually happening. Only when an observation is made can we be sure as to which of these outcomes has actually taken place. So I would refer to these contending realities, these alternative universes, as merely potential worlds, not actually existing worlds. Phillip: So each is not as good as the other, they don't have the same status? Paul: No, each has the same status. But it is only when you actually make an observation (or at least, when some observation-like physical process takes place) that you concretise one of those abstract or ghostly possibilities. Now I have to say right here that many of my colleagues profoundly disagree with that. They believe that these alternative worlds are equally real, and that they exist as parallel universes. So if you fire an electron at a target and it may go to the left or it may go to the right, the universe effectively splits into two, one universe with a left moving-electron and one with a right-moving electron. (Alternatively, two identical parallel copies of the universe differentiate at that point.) Phillip: Given that there are an infinite number of observations one could make, this means that there are infinite infinities of alternatives, options. Paul: Exactly. We might call it a 'multiverse', or an infinite number of parallel universes, or parallel realities. This way of looking at quantum mechanics is called the 'many-worlds interpretation'. It is very popular. Incidentally, it also helps one to understand why a quantum computer would be so powerful. In effect it would be able to compute in all these parallel worlds at once, and combine the results to get the output. ..Paul: That's right, but the question is, are all these possibilities really there? Are they co-existing in parallel? Or is there only one reality, one universe, and if so, how does it get selected from the myriad realities on offer? Phillip: Parallel universes — a mind-boggling notion. Are you suggesting that there are universes in which Tony Blair lost the last British general election? Paul: That's right, yes. According to the theory — if you subscribe to this particular many-universes interpretation (which many of my senior colleagues do, I might say) — these contending realities are really there. In other words, quantum physics tells us that there isn't one universe — there is an infinity of them. All of the different possibilities, all of the things that are possible at the atomic level and above, are really happening somewhere. Not over here or over there in our space and time, but in some parallel reality. ..Phillip: But I've got a terrible feeling that another interview is being conducted in an identical room where you're taking a completely different position. Paul: Yes, that is exactly right according to the many-universes view. Not only are there all these different realities, but many of them are inhabited by beings who are almost carbon copies of ourselves. So there will indeed be another universe somewhere with a Paul Davies and Phillip Adams having a slightly different — even infinitesimally different — conversation! Phillip: This raises the issue of the way the human mind is entangled in the ultimate reality of the cosmos, because you are now dealing with our perceptions of it. Paul: Indeed. That's actually the whole point. The really disturbing thing about quantum physics is that it does seem in some way to involve the observer. It entangles the observer and the observed in a very intimate way. You see, in the old-fashioned classical physics, the observer was just there for the ride. In Newton's scheme, for example, there certainly could be observers, but they didn't really matter very much. Now it has to be conceded that in any physical theory observers disturb the system they are observing. Suppose you want to measure the temperature of, say, a glass of water. You put a thermometer into the water; the very act of doing this will change the temperature of the water you are trying to measure. Never mind, you can compensate for that. In principle, you can take the disturbance completely into account and, by compensating for it, you can make the measurement as accurately as you like. But when it comes to quantum physics the situation is dramatically different. The act of measurement will disturb the system that you are trying to measure in a way that can never be taken into account with any certainty. In other words, quantum phenomena enfold or entangle the observer with the observed in a manner that simply can't be untangled. This entanglement seems to bring something like 'mind', something like 'observer', into nature in a very intimate way. Now that is anathema to most scientists, who struggle to keep mind and subjectivity out. The retreat into the many-universes interpretation is really one way of trying to evade introducing the observer at all, because you don't have to say that a cat is good enough or a human being is good enough to effect the actualisation of reality, or that something strange and mystical happens when an observation is made. You simply declare that all the possible quantum alternatives are acted out in their own universes in their own way. They are all parallel realities, and everything that can happen, does happen. So it neatly evades having to introduce the observer in a crucial way. ...... |
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09 Sep 05 - 06:54 AM (#1559633) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: *Laura* Don't let Bush see this thread - we don't want to inflate his head any further. Who knows what he'd try next!? xLx |
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09 Sep 05 - 07:08 AM (#1559644) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Wolfgang pedant's corner: If you think of reality as being like a holograph, as some do, then yes... all concepts are everwhere at once. Though some dictionaries wrongly state that 'holograph' is a synonym for 'hologram' the difference is the basically the same as the one between 'telegram' and 'telegraph' and nearly all of those who promote this theory of reality make sure they use the correct word 'hologram'. Google for "reality is a hologram" and then for "reality is a holograph", Carol, and you'll find that you are in an even smaller minority than you thought. Wolfgang |
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09 Sep 05 - 07:17 AM (#1559647) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: The Fooles Troupe Freda - that bit of brilliance was even more relevant than some of the other entries in this thread.... |
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09 Sep 05 - 07:34 AM (#1559660) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: freda underhill thanks, ft - it is from a series of interviews between Phillip Adams (atheist and skeptic) and Paul Davies (physicist) on the abc website . Paul Davies is such a good communicator, he is one of the rare scientists who can explain science for ordinary people. that link I provided has links at the bottom of the page to more interviews with him, and they're all fascinating. Look at these comments from another one of the interviews, are we alone? Phillip: ...we're dealing with such immense numbers of suns and, presumably, of planets, that life forms may be as bountiful in the cosmos as they are on Earth. After all, in the observable universe there are 1020 — 100 billion billion — suns. Paul: That's a lot, isn't it, a big number. Unfortunately not so big that if life formed as a result of an accidental shuffling of molecules — that is, if life is a chemical fluke — then it would be bound to occur twice. Phillip: But what if you add to those 100 billion billion suns the number of possible planets? You are then dealing with an even greater number. Paul: It's just another factor of ten or so. People are very bad at large number estimates. They think that a million is awfully big, and a billion just a bit bigger, and so on. Although 100 billion billion sounds like an enormous number, it is still absolutely tiny compared to the odds against forming life by random shuffling. It is undeniably true that the universe is vast: there are a huge number of stars and probably planets too. Nevertheless the odds against shuffling, say, amino acids into proteins, which we were talking about previously, are enormous — like one followed by 130 zeros as opposed to your puny number here of one followed by twenty zeros! A hundred billion billion doesn't begin to scratch the surface of the improbability of forming life, if it formed purely by accident. So if life is merely a chemical fluke, we are alone. The only possibility of us not being alone is if there is something other than just a random shuffling process involved. Phillip: There are conflicting human emotions at work here. On the one hand, it is a very bleak thought, to suppose that we are alone in the universe. Many of us would like the company of user-friendly species from other galaxies. On the other hand, we have always been very arrogant; we rather like to think that we are at the centre of things. Paul: In some cultures, yes. But not all. The same argument was raging even in ancient Greece over 2000 years ago. The Greek atomists believed that we are not unique. They reasoned that the universe is nothing but indestructible particles moving in the void. This led them to conclude that extraterrestrial beings exist because if atoms can come together in certain combinations to form living things here on Earth, then they might do so on other worlds, too. .. the interview goes on to discuss the possibility of life on Mars, wormholes, and other strange things.. |
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09 Sep 05 - 09:49 AM (#1559754) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Amos I think he is using the wrong mechanism in his estimation of probability. What he is leaving out is the aspect of inheritance. It is highly probably that mineral crystals, for example, exist in millions and millions of planets. They are highly organized, in a simple way, and some theoreticians argue that this organizing of molecules was the mechanism that preceded amino acids. But in any case, when you add in the mechanism that a good random event produces an inheritable change, the odds against life forming is greatly reduced, in contrast witht he odds if every event in the chain is wholly random based only on the number of particles. ANd there are mechanisms which produce the perpetuation of a change in an inheritance-like frashion even in non-living systems. A |
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09 Sep 05 - 10:07 AM (#1559769) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Bill D "... nor do I need to to grasp such a concept as I have alluded to above." hey! we DO agree on something! ;>) And you're not alone.People everywhere are alluding to concepts which they don't grasp! "...numb between your synapses when you hear a "religious word" being used in a discussion.." , au contraire, mais ami! My synapses experience a heightened level of activity when certain words are used in certain contexts! "... think metaphorically, for heaven's sake." Ah, now THERE'S the crux! I understand metaphors, and will resort to them at times to evoke a feeling or enhance a concept, but golly gee!, I make a special effort at not mistaking the metaphor for some sort of reality. If I were to use the " "all concepts (are) everywhere at once" theory.", I would submit that it only makes sense to treat it as the philosophical notion of 'potential'...that is, that any individual concept could be constructed, contemplated and, perhaps, explicated at any time by any person capable of the process. (some, obviously, are not). But this admission is almost trivial....it evokes in me a big "So?" Yes, I can formulate lots of 'concepts' and metaphors, but the phrase " being everywhere at once", if not used very carefully, imparts a dangerous force to 'being', and some folks get images of little 'concepts' floating and swirling about, like dust motes in a light beam. It's a bit like asking "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" or saying "My karma ran over my dogma." We have formulated correct sentences with vague,imprecise components and still we imagine we are communicating. nicht wahr! It's a durn can of worms, that's what it is! ...to toss out a metaphor..(or, as my Daddy used to say, "It's a snare and a delusion!") |
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09 Sep 05 - 02:25 PM (#1559951) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk Does your verbiage confuse you as much as it does me, Bill? ;-) I wonder. Do thoughts exist, Bill? Do they? Are you having any now, as you read this? If you do, they exist. Your thoughts. Not physically, no...but they exists. You wouldn't be aware of them if they didn't. Things don't HAVE to be physical to exist...they only have to be physical to exist physically. Doh! I'll give you a clue, Bill...something can exist in at least one of 2 ways (maybe more than that), and this is what they are: 1. as a physical phenomenon, observable through physical senses 2. as an energy phemomenon, observable through physical senses or certain other forms of awareness Thought is a form of organized energy. It exists. That's how you think. Some thoughts, of course, are better organized than others. ;-) If you don't think, you will NOT react to this post in any way, NOR will you react to any other post in future, and I will NOT hear from you again on this forum. ;-) You will cease to be. Wolfgang - You are absolutely right regarding the words "holograph" and "hologram". That bothered me too. What Carol is referring to is a hologram. |
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09 Sep 05 - 02:28 PM (#1559954) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk Oh, and Wolfgang... Jesus was in a very small minority. So too Buddha. So too Gandhi. So too Lao-Tse and Beethoven and Mozart and Michelangelo and Copernicus. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Beer-drinking idiots who raise hell at soccer games, for example, are not in such a small minority among their peers. Does that make them "right"? LOL! |
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09 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM (#1559968) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: *daylia* I think you are giving him too much credit with that powerful little word "the"... I think so too, Amos. George the 'Panti-Christ' is more appropriate. See? Now, before you get up be sure to wipe all that steam off your spectacles ... |
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09 Sep 05 - 02:59 PM (#1559974) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk LOL! Now there's a subversive form of protest if ever I've seen one. |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:05 PM (#1559982) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Amos A great argument for Bushlessness indeed, D. thanks. In scientific circles, finally a reasonable explaantion: evolution. From Newsday: Is brain still developing? Discovery of two gene variations have some scientists saying that human think tank will continue to evolve BY JAMIE TALAN STAFF WRITER September 8, 2005, 8:45 PM EDT Scientists have discovered a gene variation, perhaps involved in brain size, that showed up only 6,000 years ago -- a mere blink of the eye in evolutionary time. ... Analyzing DNA samples from individuals throughout the world, they identified two genetic varieties that are unique to humans. One called abnormal spindle-like microcephaly, or ASPM, first appeared 6,000 years and is now found in 30 percent of the population. The other, called microcephalin, evolved about 37,000 years ago and has spread to more than 70 percent of the population. ... While the first modern humans date back 200,000 years ago, our closest human ancestors, ones with shared human behavior, probably evolved around 40,000 years ago, Harpending said. People with damage to either of these two genes -- microencephalin and ASPM -- have smaller brains, equal in size to chimp brains. They also suffer from impaired cognitive abilities and have severe language problems. (emphasis added). "We tend to think that we have reached the pinnacle of evolution," Lahn said. "Given these findings, we can say that the human brain is still changing -- and rather rapidly. "Our brain will continue to change. In 10,000 years, the biological processes may be very different than they are today." All he needs is a transplant of the microencephalin gene. Nothing a little stem cell work couldn't handle....oh...well...oops...never mind! :D A |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:12 PM (#1559990) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: CarolC Ok. Bill, the kind of holo-thingie I'm talking about is the thing made using a laser that contains all of the elements of the image (or whatever) in all of the parts/places that make up the holo-thingie. |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:18 PM (#1559996) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Amos Definitions of hologram on the Web: A unique photographic printing that provides a three-dimensional effect on a flat surface. Holograms cannot be easily copied and are used for security and aesthetic purposes on cards. www.duracard.com/glossary.htm Unlike photography which records an image as seen from a single viewpoint, a hologram is a record of an image as seen from many viewpoints. web.mit.edu/museum/lightforest/glossary.html A laser-generated image with three-dimensional properties, increasingly used to deter counterfeiting of currency, credit cards, and identification. www.hometravelagency.com/dictionary/ltrh.html Definitions of holograph on the Web: A term indicating the handwriting of the author. www.ballandcross.com/index.php A document handwritten by the person purported to have written it. www.trussel.com/books/glossary.htm A manuscript in the handwriting of its author. [See also AUTOGRAPH] www.slais.ubc.ca/people/students/student-projects/M_Chesko/L513/definitions.htm Document in the author's own handwriting. www.geocities.com/Axiom43/literary.html Written entirely by the hand of the author www.booksellerworld.com/glossary-bookterms.htm manuscript: handwritten book or document hologram: the intermediate photograph (or photographic record) that contains information for reproducing a three-dimensional image by holography wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn A holograph is a document written entirely in the handwriting of the person whose signature it bears. The laws of various U.S. states differ as to the validity of holographic last wills. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holograph |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:20 PM (#1559999) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk Read "The Holographic Universe" for some interesting commentary on the subject. |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:21 PM (#1560000) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Amos But note the interesting intersection at "holographic" and "holography": Definitions of holographic on the Web: The condition upon which the information for creating a whole system is stored in each of its parts. www.levity.com/mavericks/glossary.htm A document or inscription written in the hand of the person who signed it. www.kruegerbooks.com/books/services/terms.htm of or relating to holography or holograms written entirely in one's own hand; "holographic document" written wholly in the handwriting of the signer; "a holographic will" wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Holography (from the Greek, ¼ëïò-holos whole + ãñáöÞ-graphe writing) is the science of producing holograms, an advanced form of photography that allows an image to be recorded in three dimensions. The technique of holography can also be used to optically store and retrieve information. Holograms are common in science-fiction, most notably Star Trek. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:27 PM (#1560004) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk Amos, I know a book you ought to read: "The Power of Now" by Eckhard Tolle. It's in an inexpensive paperback. Get it and read it. You will enjoy it. |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:29 PM (#1560008) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Amos The reference derives originally, i believe, from the work of Karl Pribram, who was investigating the peculiar holographic properties of information in the mind and remarked, at some point, "Maybe the world is a hologram. The theory that implies this seeks to understand the interactions between awareness, quantum level phenomena, and space itself. Ancient mystics implied the same set of phenomena when they described the Akashic Records, a repository available to spiritual awareness of all the deeds and words that have occurred in time. From Wikipedia: "Akasha is a Sanskrit word meaning "sky", "space" or "aether". The Akashic Records are therefore said to be a collection of wisdom that is stored in the aether. The concept is common in some New Age religious groups. The Akashic Records are said to have existed since the beginning of the planet. Just as we have various specialty libraries (e.g., medical, law), there are said to exist various Akashic Records (e.g., human, animal, plant, mineral, etc). Most writings refer to the Akashic Records in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_Record" The holographic nature of thought is a conclusion one is drawn to when studying some of the less mainstream studies about awareness and the brain/body boundaries. Although many of these investigations support a theory that consciousness is non-local, not bounded by the physical apparent limits of the body hosting the operator, the vast majority of these issues get dismissed out of hand by those who reject any form of non-material phenomenology. Such individuals often find themselves greatly surprised during their next lifetime transition, if they are conscious enough to notice it. Others sleep through the event and only wake up in the vicinity of kindergarten. A |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:31 PM (#1560010) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Bill D Little Hawk...you might remember me once posting a story about Will James and the squirrel on the tree and the men trying to see the squirrel...and debating whether they were going 'around' the squirrel. They simply had to agree on what they meant by 'around'.... I can agree that thoughts exist, but that doesn't solve the problem...or win the argument for either side. I can claim that 'thought' has no meaning OR existence apart from a brain/mind (another embedded debate) having the thought. What we should agree on is that 'thought' has meaning, and that we seem to all have the same basic kinds of stuff happening when we are conscious. We might get that far.. Then, we'd have to have some sort of agreement about whether thoughts are MERELY combinations of synapses firing in complex patterns, or whether 'something' other than physio-chemical firing in the brain "makes" thoughts...and there we seem to part company.*grin* I contened it ain't obvious that any such thing happens, while you (and a few others) treat it as a given, and explain things with that as a pre-supposition. At that point, if no one surrenders, we just have to shrug and sing a song! You state that there are **2** forms of existence....not everyone agrees! Matter and energy are NOT considered separable by most physicists...they are merely referred to differently in different contexts for convenience. You toss in "2)...or certain other forms of awareness" as if it were a universally accepted notion...."it ain't necessarily so" Does my verbiage confuse me? Well, no...not if I spend a lot of time trying to carefully explicate what I mean and avoid vague and imprecise use of the language...(not an easy task in English, where we can't even pin down 'folk' *grin*) |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:34 PM (#1560012) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: CarolC Holographic, hologram... so you can see the source of my confusion. |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:47 PM (#1560023) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: LilyFestre While I have nothing worthwhile to add to this thread, let me just say that it makes for some interesting reading. There's nothing like a good cold mug of milk, a caramel apple and excessive posting about whether GW is the anti-Christ or not, the concept of what exists and what doesn't, personal jabs, etc.to help the afternoon go by. Yep...definately better with the cold mug of milk and caramel apple though..... Michelle |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:54 PM (#1560027) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Donuel So Amos, the brain is evolving smaller in up to 70% of the population so far? |
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09 Sep 05 - 03:55 PM (#1560028) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk I don't say there there are only 2 forms of existence, Bill... But it's a start, if one wishes to have a discussion. You are quite correct that all the various perceivable forms of existence are "merely referred to differently in different contexts for convenience". Right! That is the point behind the spiritual concepts I am studying, so I am in agreement with your physicists. Matter IS energy. All high spiritual teachings that I know of state that all of Reality is a single Unity (which CAN be called "God", but doesn't have to be. The Taoists call it "Tao" which means The Way. It's not personalized in their system. Some call it Pure Being. Some call it by other names. The name doesn't matter.) You clearly ARE thinking, and with meaning, because you responded to my post. I don't think that was a result of random firing of whatever in your brain...and neither do you. An idiot might think that, in order just to cling loyally to his already established argumentative position. Obviously, your response has meaning, and you will perceive meaning in my response to your response. It all has meaning, Bill. Everything has meaning. If you can't see it, that doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you aren't seeing it, because your form of awareness doesn't allow you to see it. (and I'm NOT talking about physical eyesight when I say that) Language is the problem. Jibber-jabber is the problem. The monkey won't stop chattering! If you and I could just SHUT UP for 24 hours and become completely mentally silent within ourselves and go within, we would never have to talk about this again. I guarantee it. But I bet you can't do that. I know I haven't been able to yet. Not even close. I have succeeded in becoming mentally silent for maybe...a few minutes...and THAT wasn't easy, either. (I mean...you have to do it WHILE remaining awake and conscious. Try it. I dare you.) I betcha can't! ;-) Most people can't. I've met only a tiny handful who can, and I've met a few million people by now. That's why enlightenment is so rare, and that's why people don't get it when I talk about this stuff. They can't stop thinking and mentally jabbering at themselves and others, not for a second. That's what holds them in pride, fear, and ignorance...quite regardless of their university degrees and academic standing. It's virtually unknown. If I ever achieve it, Bill, I will not waste my time debating with you or anyone else on this forum anymore. Why would I? Would it matter? I will have far more worthwhile things to do. How do I know that? I've seen others who have done it. Their lives are totally productive and totally remarkable all the time. They are no longer mentally masturbating for every waking minute of their lives in order to appease the jabbering monkey of their tiny, little, fearful, blathering mortal mind. I kid you not. I've seen it. |
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09 Sep 05 - 05:42 PM (#1560085) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: freda underhill apparently Einstein's theory of relativity disproved the existence of aether, and the aetheric body. but what would he know? (forgive me, physicist, for i HAVE SINNED..) but then in his later years, Einstein also rejected quantum mechanics, even tho he was one of the originators of the quantum theory, partly because quantum theory is too messy... does God play dice with the universe? (excerpt from link) "The rules of quantum mechanics forbid you from saying in any individual case what will happen. So quantum theory is basically a statistical theory, like roulette or dice. You can only give the odds. Although quite precise and mathematical from the statistical point of view, you generally cannot say in any particular case what the outcome is going to be. Einstein hated that idea. He hated the notion that the future was intrinsically indeterminate..." which begs the question, did Einstein reject quantum mechanics because he was a control freak? |
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09 Sep 05 - 05:45 PM (#1560087) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: freda underhill and speaking of mental mastrurbation, masturbation didnt always have such a bad rap. In Egyptian mythology, Ra stands on the primordial hill, shaped like a pyramid, and masturbates. And from his semen is created all life. Maybe the Egyptians were right, who knows. It's as good a theory as any. |
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09 Sep 05 - 06:03 PM (#1560098) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk Masturbation's okay, as long as you don't overdo it. (More of a problem for men than women, that, because it tires their system out more.) Accordingly, I somewhat recommend it, depending when and how much and in compensation for what perceived lack... God most definitely does not play dice with the Universe, but some people do. |
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09 Sep 05 - 07:57 PM (#1560157) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Bill D I don't know where to start, Little Hawk, as we obviously have different rules for approaching the discussion. but, I will note...I didn't say "random firing" I would guess that there is some random firing, but most 'firing' builds on what has gone before, just as we refer to past posts here to make the present ones. But other ideas you espouse...i.e.," become completely mentally silent within ourselves and go within" I don't even know what that might mean, as in all my many years I have never seen any way to 'turn off' all inner processes. "Within" is a word we'd have to clarify. I have to agree I couldn't win the bet you suggest....I coulnt do that. I **KNOW** that discipline and meditation has enabled some to achieve amazing control over both body and mind and allowed them to have a 'stability' that far surpasses what I can do.....but I suspect that this is simply an advanced demonstration of the phenomenon called "bio-feedback". Nothing to be ignored, but hardly mysterious if one decides to become adept. ummm...I was just scrolling up, trying to figger out what else to comment on, and one thing hit me between the eyes..(metaphor!!!) "...I've met a few million people by now." My math tells me that this MUST mean you are adding in previous lives. Is that fair? *grin* I'm not sure the Pope could claim 'a few million'.... |
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09 Sep 05 - 08:45 PM (#1560183) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk Yeah, I may have been including past lives, Bill...but no...I think even in this life. I don't mean I've had a conversation with them all, but I've observed them, and here's what I observe: most people have no idea how to silence the mind, and they are continually at its mercy. Under its constant harassment, they do all manner of weird stuff to deal with the pressure. They talk endlessly (and say little), they socialize (and know not why), they keep "busy" (because they are terrified of stopping and confronting the silence that is the alternative to being busy), they get frantic at traffic lights and minor delays (instead of being at peace and enjoying the moment), they gossip, they party and get drunk, they get high on drugs, they fight needless wars, they engage in crime, they obsess about politics and religion, they get addicted to all manner of weird behaviours, they buy things they don't need, they fidget and twitch, they are all clearly in an ongoing state of anxiety and unmet need. All of that ceases for the enlightened. The enlightened are always peaceful inside, always in a state of joy and completion, always inspired, and far more capable of taking any needful action than most "normal" people. Normal people, meaning the norm in society, are like a 100 watt bulb that's only turning out about 15 or 20 watts...if that. I say that (about the enlightened) because I have seen it demonstrated. I have certainly not yet achieved it. I wish I would, but it takes a lot of discipline (in most cases), and I'm somewhat lazy and easily distracted (observe me chattering on this forum). You can call enlightenment "biofeedback" if you like, but I find that word very inadequate for what I've seen. Very. I do know a good book you could read about it. I doubt you'd believe it could work for you, but you might find it quite intriguing. You know, I'm like a frog who saw a prince...and is dreaming of the day when he can become one too. I wish that everyone could. We would have peace on Earth and no one would lack for anything. Peace on Earth, Bill. And nothing less. |
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09 Sep 05 - 09:12 PM (#1560200) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Bill D *nod* we don't have to agree on the nature of reality to share the fervent wish for that Peace, Little Hawk. I would prefer to call the folks who can achieve that 'inner calm' "adept" rather than "enlightened", but that is just a personal prejudice... take care.......... |
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09 Sep 05 - 09:25 PM (#1560213) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: GUEST Bill, this is what can happen if you learn how to have a moment of complete mental silence.. Meditating, eyes closed, my mind has become so still that my sense of observing self withdraws to a point of non- presence. Suddenly I am in the night sky, space. A huge ball shoots away from me, becoming smaller, until it becomes a small dot in the universe and disappears in space. I have just zoomed from my planet towards a huge light, shooting through the universe. A hole in time, a pause. I fly through the night sky, emerging from the closest star, the sun. From a huge mass of burning light that is conscious, explosive, vibrant. I zoom through the universe, towards my body which is now collapsed on the floor. Returning, I see myself in a totally detached way, my personality traits, faults and strengths, as if observing a genetic program. I observe that I will enter that body, that genetic pattern, that I'm going to be that again, then I plunge straight back into that body and personality. Now I am lying stretched out on the floor. My body feels saturated in light and is so conscious, and I am so drunk with ecstasy, that I cannot move. My mind is not limited to a point within my skull. My whole body is conscious and my mind is perceiving from my whole body. My body is made up of a sea of atoms/cells, each cell is glowing with golden light. Each cell is its own conscious entity. Each cell of my body is consciously perceiving. My mind is dwelling in my body, a sea of billions of little minds. My three month old daughter is placed in my arms. I hold her, and she too becomes saturated in the golden cocoon of awareness. Some time later, my muscles are so relaxed that they don't function properly. I have to be helped to sit up and walk because I can't co-ordinate myself properly. February 1982. |
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09 Sep 05 - 10:02 PM (#1560226) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk That's it. Thank God. I don't know who you are, Guest, but I thank you for that contribution. I devoutly wish to make the same conscious crossing that you have so eloquently described. I know it's possible, because I know people who can do it on a regular basis, and I have observe how it has changed them radically for the better. They are a blessing to themselves and all others whom they touch upon. Thanks again. - Little Hawk |
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09 Sep 05 - 10:17 PM (#1560232) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: GUEST Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not? From: GUEST,shycat Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:02 AM That's who to thank for the post, LH. |
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09 Sep 05 - 10:52 PM (#1560245) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk Okay... I wonder who shycat is... |
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09 Sep 05 - 11:18 PM (#1560252) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Amos Beautifully described, Shycat, if that is who you are. Individuals with such descriptions vary in the details, but never in the truths revealed. Makes ya wonder! A |
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10 Sep 05 - 06:38 AM (#1560359) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Tam the man Yes he is HEHEHEHEHEHE He's pro money and pro oil, he doesn't care for people at all. He only cares if you're a white anglo saxon protestant if you're none of these then tough shit. (Only kidding) |
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10 Sep 05 - 10:46 AM (#1560436) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: JennyO I know who shycat is, but I'm not saying ;-) |
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10 Sep 05 - 12:29 PM (#1560498) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: *daylia* Well, I know who the anti-Christ is but I'm not saying either! :-) But it can't be GWB, unless he manages to rig this requirement sometime soon ... ...I saw that one of it's heads seemed to have a fatal wound but that this deadly injury had healed and, after that, the whole world had marveled and followed the beast ... they prostrated themselves in front of the beast, saying, "Who can compare with the beast?" (Rev 13:3-5) Far as I can see, George has only one head. Granted, that head's deficiencies are glaringly obvious and dangerous too, but not 'deadly' (at least for him). He's no Pied Piper! (although his inner circle does appear quite rat-infested). He's yet to be miraculously healed of anything. With the possible exception of a few million already-deluded bible-thumpers, he's far from becoming the object of the whole world's marvel or (willing) prostration. And he's certainly not beyond compare! Interesting parallels can be drawn with, for example, a garden slug (although slugs DO serve a few useful purposes). Perhaps a mad bull would be better? |
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10 Sep 05 - 01:21 PM (#1560525) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Bill D I am awed that anyone can achieve an experience like 'shycat'...even for a moment. I'm sure it was not achieved without both practice and and a 'will' to find something beyond our usual awareness. As to what actually happens during such an experience, I don't think anyone can say, though I have vague suspicions. As one who has an interest in knowing what lies behind our experiences, rather than merely reading subjective speculation, I doubt that my basic attitude vector (to coin a phrase) will ever allow me to have such an experience. I am just too psychologically resistant to the discipline required...*shrug* I try not to pass any absolute judgement on these experiences, but merely to look in a reasonably formal way at what I perceive as claims about their nature and to note when those *claims* break rules of logic and 'proof'. NOTE: This in no way suggests that someone did not have the experience! It merely serves as a guide for evaluation by those who did NOT have the experience, and sometimes looks at alternative possible explanations. There is a great deal to learn about how the universe works, how our minds work...and how our minds and the Universe are related. There are many conflicting theories....and perhaps the 'truth' lies somewhere NO ONE has seen yet. And perhaps the absolute answers are in principle not approachable from our standpoint. To me, the search is as important as the answer....and that is why I will always remain a skeptic; interested, but suspicious, of implied answers. I don't want to be strictly an adversary, but rather a gentle nag...asking whether everything has been taken into account. I think we need both the visionaries AND the skeptical nags. |
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10 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM (#1560556) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Jack the Sailor some observations.. Far as I can see, George has only one head. All men have two heads. It varies man to man which head is in charge. When George was a young man it was almost certainly the smaller one. Granted, that head's deficiencies are glaringly obvious and dangerous too, but not 'deadly' (at least for him). He's no Pied Piper! (although his inner circle does appear quite rat-infested). He had 50 million people following him into the hell he has created, voting against their own interests last election. He's yet to be miraculously healed of anything. With the possible exception of a few million already-deluded bible-thumpers, he's far from becoming the object of the whole world's marvel or (willing) prostration. And he's certainly not beyond compare! Interesting parallels can be drawn with, for example, a garden slug (although slugs DO serve a few useful purposes). Perhaps a mad bull would be better? Beyond compare? I donno, he's pretty unique. The whole world DOES marvel at how an obvious shallow illiterate won that job. and BTW according to his official bio and all of his supporters, he was healed, of alcoholism, by Billy Graham. That conversion is a huge source of his support. |
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10 Sep 05 - 02:20 PM (#1560557) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace I wonder how many presidents of the USA have entered politics poor and ended up rich? |
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10 Sep 05 - 02:32 PM (#1560559) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq The most obvious ones are Lyndon Johnson and Bill Clinton. Clinton has amassed a personal fortune of over 70 million dollars, mostly after he left office, as the markers he held came due. |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:00 PM (#1560569) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Ebbie pdq, would you please post a link to the former president's fortune? I looked at Jeeves and on Google and Snopes but didn't find any solid information. Thanks. |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:01 PM (#1560570) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace Have any entered poor and left poor? |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:05 PM (#1560573) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq Nixon left with a 450 thousand dollar "fortune", includeg his family home in southern California, an asset he inherited. |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:09 PM (#1560575) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace Thank you. |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:15 PM (#1560579) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq And then there is Albert A. Gore, who would have carried on his family tradition, had he gotten more votes than his opponent in the 2000 election (which, of course he didn't... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ by Joseph Farah ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gore sensitive about Hammer connection ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ...Al Gore is being cagey about his middle name because of his family's long-time association with a billionaire Soviet apparatchik. In her Feb. 15 column, Jeanette Walls reveals the vice president usually gives only his middle initial -- A -- when asked about his middle name. When pressed upon by a fifth grader recently, Gore asked the kid to give his full name. In other words, the vice president won't even give a straight, direct answer to the question: "What's your name?" Does this remind you of any recent presidents? On his tax return, Gore lists his middle name as Albert. I always thought that was his first name. According to the Wall Street Journal, his birth certificate lists the middle name as simply the initial "A." Very strange. Why the hypersensitivity? A source told Walls that his parents gave him the initial as a middle name because they wanted their friend and benefactor, Armand Hammer, to believe their child was named for him. An official spokesman for the vice president questioned the veracity of the report. With good reason the campaign wants to divert attention from the Hammer-Gore connection. Hammer used to boast that he had Sen. Al Gore Sr. "in his back pocket." As I have reported here before, Hammer set up Gore Sr. in business before he ventured into politics, stayed close to him throughout his political career and hired him after he left office. "Throughout the whole of his life, Al Gore Sr. and his family depended on pay-outs, kickbacks and subventions from Hammer," wrote Neil Lyndon, who worked for Hammer. "Like his father before him, Al Gore Jr.'s political career was lavishly sponsored by Hammer from the moment it began until Hammer died, only two years before Gore Clinton in the 1992 race for the White House." Who was Hammer? He was a personal friend of V.I. Lenin. He was known as Lenin's "path" to America's financial resources. He was the first of a long line of Western businessmen to participate in KGB-controlled joint ventures in the Soviet Union. He was the son of Julius Hammer, a founder of the Socialist Labor Party and later the Communist party USA and who served time in Sing Sing for performing illegal abortions. Armand Hammer was called the "Capitalist Prince" by the KGB. He dutifully served the Soviets for seven decades and became the first -- and only -- "American capitalist" to be awarded the Order of Lenin. According to Edward J. Epstein's "Dossier: The Secret History of Armand Hammer," Lenin told Stalin about this so-called "industrialist": "This is a small path leading to the American 'business' world, and this path should be made use of in every way." In other words, Hammer was a part-time spy, part-time money-launderer, part-time "industrialist" -- but a full-time traitor to the United States of America. To the Soviet Union in his day, Hammer was a figure with much in common with the contemporary spy-cum-billionaire Mochtar Riady -- doing the bidding of socialist tyrants and making a bundle in the process. It was Al Gore Sr. who stopped the FBI from pursuing an investigation of Hammer as a Soviet agent of influence. And the cozy relationship with the family continued when Al Gore Jr. -- whatever his real name is -- was elected to the Senate in 1980. Hammer was the guest of honor in the "senators only" section during President Reagan's inauguration. The Hammer connection continued to define Al Gore's political career. He serves as co-chairman of a Russian-U.S. commission intended to help the next generation of Armand Hammer-style "Capitalist Princes" develop contacts with businesses that are little more than foreign intelligence fronts. In 1994, the vice president established U.S.-Russian Joint Commission on Economic and Technical Cooperation, better known as the Gore-Chernomyrdin Commission. The purpose of the commission is to help establish join ventures in space exploration, science and technology, defense conversion, environmental initiatives, public health issues, agribusiness and economic development. The Russian side of this equation is littered with shadowy figures with one foot in the intelligence community and the other in mob-related activities. Now you see why Al Gore Jr. is the perfect candidate to continue the Bill Clinton tradition. He's been groomed for it his whole life -- from the very day he was born. So, at the next Democratic party town hall meeting, some one should ask the simple, straightforward question -- once again -- of candidate Al Gore: "Sir, what is your full name?" It will be fun to watch him squirm, change the subject and evade answering. And now you'll know why. |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:17 PM (#1560581) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace I don't see that either Reps or Dems offer Americans much choice. Seems that politics engenders greed, and taxpayers pay. |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:34 PM (#1560586) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq Dang, Brewster, this means you may really BE a moderate! |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:35 PM (#1560587) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace I am. |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:37 PM (#1560588) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: dianavan pdq - What are you reading? Seems to me that international co-operation towards disarmament is a good thing. Why shouldn't Gore use family ties to encourage peace? Are you afraid of Russia or are you afraid of attempts to find a peaceful resolution to the problem of nuclear arms? Google: Gore-Chernomyrdin Commission for a broader perspective. |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:38 PM (#1560589) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq Got it! 100! |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:40 PM (#1560591) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace Incidentally, I think if Dems get in next time that there won't be a rush to undo much that has gone wrong during the watches of Bush and Clinton. Poor people will continue to remain poor and big money will continue to call the shots. Clinton's non-action during the Rwanda crisis turned me off him. And now, I fail to see any difference between the parties other than their espoused platforms--and those words don't ever seem to translate to a reality that makes life better for the average guy or gal. |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:40 PM (#1560592) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq OK, close but no cigar, oh well... |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:40 PM (#1560593) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace pdq, you got 101. |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:41 PM (#1560594) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace A cigarette is just a cigarette, but a good cigar is a smoke. (G Burns) |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:43 PM (#1560596) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq If ya got dyslexia, such things don't matter. |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:53 PM (#1560604) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: dianavan This is the second time I got 100 without even trying! |
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10 Sep 05 - 03:54 PM (#1560605) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq More about that 'lil charmer Albert A Gore... Al Gore's Teapot Dome.(Occidental Petroleum acquires large portion of Elk HIlls)(Brief Article) The Nation; 7/17/2000; COCKBURN, ALEXANDER Al Gore succeeded where the Administration of Warren Harding failed. He privatized Elk Hills, the huge oilfield outside Bakersfield, California, set aside long ago as a strategic reserve for the Navy. Back in the Harding days, Interior Secretary Albert Fall went to jail for taking a $100,000 bribe to approve lease of the field to Edward Doheny. For seventy years, lingering recollections of Teapot Dome remained strong enough to stymie attempted raids on the military's largest strategic fuel reserve. Nixon tried to sell it, and so did Reagan; each time Congress beat them back. _____________________________________________________________________ Encyclopedia Teapot Dome Teapot Dome, in U.S. history, oil reserve scandal that began during the administration of President Harding. In 1921, by executive order of the President, control of naval oil reserves at Teapot Dome, Wyo., and at Elk Hills, Calif., was transferred from the Navy Dept. to the Dept. of the Interior. The oil reserves had been set aside for the navy by President Wilson. In 1922, Albert B. Fall, U.S. Secretary of the Interior, leased, without competitive bidding, the Teapot Dome fields to Harry F. Sinclair, an oil operator, and the field at Elk Hills, Calif., to Edward L. Doheny. These transactions became (1922–23) the subject of a Senate investigation conducted by Sen. Thomas J. Walsh. It was found that in 1921, Doheny had lent Fall $100,000, interest-free, and that upon Fall's retirement as Secretary of the Interior (Mar., 1923) Sinclair also "loaned" him a large amount of money. The investigation led to criminal prosecutions. Fall was indicted for conspiracy and for accepting bribes. Convicted of the latter charge, he was sentenced to a year in prison and fined $100,000. In another trial for bribery Doheny and Sinclair were acquitted, although Sinclair was subsequently sentenced to prison for contempt of the Senate and for employing detectives to shadow members of the jury in his case. The oil fields were restored to the U.S. government through a Supreme Court decision in 1927. See M. R. Werner and J. Starr, Teapot Dome (1959); B. Noggle, Teapot Dome (1962). |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:00 PM (#1560609) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff I have thought this since before he cheated his way into office in 2000. Even before his immoral war in Iraq, and even before his hienous setup of the tragedy in New Orleans. I am really amazed that I was right? No left! "Let's defund levee building by 80% and see the carnage and havoc we will reap!" W Peter |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:03 PM (#1560611) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace "What this country needs is a good five cent cigar." Well, it has one. The trouble is it costs a quarter. What this country really needs is a good five cent nickel. |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:04 PM (#1560612) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq Whatever people think of George W. Bush, he kept us from gettin Gored... Lincoln Bedroom Sleepover for Gore Benefactor Surrounded by Questionable Coincidences By the Staff of Just Facts 9-22-00 In March of 1996, the chairman of Occidental Petroleum, an 18 billion dollar oil company, was an overnight guest in the Lincoln bedroom of the White House. Two days after the sleepover, Occidental's Political Action Committee (PAC) gave $100,000 to the Democratic National Committee. In 1997, the Washington Post revealed that the Clinton administration created an exception to a law that stood in the way of a business venture that Occidental wanted to pursue in the country of Sudan. Further investigation has uncovered additional information on this matter. The Anti-Terrorism Law, Lincoln Bedroom and $100,000 In 1996, Congress passed and Bill Clinton signed what became Public Law 104-132. This law prohibits anyone in the United States from doing business with countries who are classified as state sponsors of terrorism. At the time, Occidental was pursuing an oil exploration deal with the country of Sudan, which is classified as a state sponsor of terrorism. There was a 6 week period between when Congress passed this legislation and when Bill Clinton signed it into law. It was during this window of time that the chairman of Occidental stayed at the White House and Occidental's PAC gave $100,000 to the Democratic National Committee. In addition to the timing of the sleepover and the donation, a 9 year review of Occidental's political contributions found the amount of this particular donation is unprecedented, doubling the size of any other donation they have made during this period. Bill Clinton and the Exception The anti-terrorism law would have put an end to Occidental's plans in Sudan, but it contained a provision allowing the executive branch to make exceptions. The law went into effect during August of 1996. On the same day that the law became operative, the Clinton administration established an exception that allowed U.S. corporations and individuals to do business with Sudan. Three months after the exception was instituted, the government of Sudan barred Occidental from participating in the oil deal. Sudan did this as a result of a newspaper article that appeared in the Washington Post, which revealed that the Clinton administration was giving military support to three nations who were enemies of the government in Sudan. After Occidental could no longer profit from the exception, Bill Clinton closed it. Less than a year after Sudan barred Occidental from the oil deal, Bill Clinton issued an executive order containing language that mirrors the provision in the anti-terrorism law that his administration had excepted. In the executive order, Clinton stated that the policies of the government of Sudan were an "extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States," and declared "a national emergency to deal with that threat." Less than a year earlier, the Clinton administration stated that there was "nothing improper" in allowing the oil deal between Occidental and Sudan. Al Gore and Occidental In June of 2000, Al Gore said, "It takes somebody who is independent from big oil to take on big oil, and I'm independent from them . . ." At the time when the story about the exception was published, some of Al Gore's extensive financial dealings with Occidental were not widely reported. In addition to campaign contributions, Occidental has been a benefactor of Al Gore and his father for many years. After Gore's father was defeated for reelection in 1970, Occidental hired him at a salary of $500,000 a year. In 1972, Occidental purchased a farm in Tennessee and promptly sold it to Gore's father, who turned around and resold the farm to Al Gore. Over the next decade, Occidental paid Al Gore $20,000 a year for the rights to mine minerals on this land. The payments added up to more than what Gore bought the land for, and during this entire period, Occidental never did any mining there. Presently, Al Gore is the executor of his father's estate, which contains more than $500,000 worth of stock in Occidental. |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:05 PM (#1560613) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace Ya mean Washington politicians have oil interests? Since when? |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:14 PM (#1560615) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace Wasn't it Eisenhower who warned about a 'military-industrial' complex? Well, it looks like most of us have the complex whether we want it or not. |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:17 PM (#1560616) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq BTW, the six most corrupt states in the US are: Louisana Arkansas Missouri Illinois New York New Jersey All have a history of organized crime involvement and Democrat party machines. Apologies to rural Illinois were some fine, honest people live. Also apologies to those in Upstate New York, where people aren't corrupt, just a bit weird. |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:20 PM (#1560617) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq ...as Tom Lehrer once said... "a most complex complex..." |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:30 PM (#1560618) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace Thought for sure Nevada would make that list. Where's it from? |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:34 PM (#1560620) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace www.corporatecrimereporter.com/corruptreport.pdf I don't know how to link to PDF files. However, this site gives a neat report that is not in complete agreement with you, pdq. However, it does state uncategorically that the most corrupt place in the USA is the District of Columbia. What a surprise THIS will be to Mudcatters. |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:38 PM (#1560622) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace or Google PUBLIC CORRUPTION IN THE UNITED STATES |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:49 PM (#1560626) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq Two small points, Brewster: DC is not a state, although it may be a 'state of mind'. Those states which attempt to halt corruption will have a high number of convictions. States like Louisana and Illinois, where corruption is endemic and considered 'smart' will have fewer convictions. Think about it. |
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10 Sep 05 - 04:51 PM (#1560627) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace I will do that. What's your source? |
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10 Sep 05 - 05:01 PM (#1560631) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace So, that aside, we can at least recognize that there IS corruption in the USA and that it doesn't seem to follow party lines. We have that here, too. |
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10 Sep 05 - 05:05 PM (#1560633) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq ...just thinking about Albert A(rmand) Gore, since the dolt has never done an honest day's work in his life, he is the... ANTI-PERSPIRANT! |
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10 Sep 05 - 06:17 PM (#1560667) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Ebbie Speaking of weird, pdq (what is that? Pretty Damn Quaint?), your opinions are derived from some questionable assumptions. For instance, it is not highly publicized but Bush is also in the 'business' of using the Lincoln Bedroom as a reward. Do some research. And if Al Gore - may you be half the man he is - is to be judged by his father's associates, shall we go into Bush's antecedents? Frankly, I'd rather be a Communist than a Nazi. |
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10 Sep 05 - 07:03 PM (#1560679) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq As they say... "Two lefts don't make a right." Actually, it takes three. |
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10 Sep 05 - 07:43 PM (#1560693) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk I simply cannot imagine anyone voting for either the Democrats or the Republicans anymore. It's unthinkable. But there's effectively no one else to vote for in the USA (in any realistic sense). That's what's so sad about it. It's a closed shop. It's a "choice" that is really no choice at all. It's an oligarchy, not a democracy. Real democracy ended a long time ago. The $ySStem now just goes through the motions of elections in order to fool people into imagining they still have a voice. Abraham Lincoln was already predicting this demise of real democracy way back in the 1860's. He said that big commercial interests would destroy it. He was right. |
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10 Sep 05 - 07:53 PM (#1560706) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: pdq A man walks out of a local casino, one known to be shady. His friend see him and walks up to talk. "Joe, what are you thinking. You know their dice are loaded, the cards are marked and the wheels are weighted. Why do you play in there?" The patron answers "I know it's rigged but it's the only game in town." |
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10 Sep 05 - 08:04 PM (#1560714) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk That's the sad truth. |
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10 Sep 05 - 08:16 PM (#1560725) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Peace Good one, pdq. It is the sad truth, indeed, LH. |
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11 Sep 05 - 09:32 AM (#1560985) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: freda underhill Michael Brown, the director of FEMA, was nominated by President Bush in 2003 and plans to start the job again any day now. ... Prior to heading FEMA, Brown spent the '90s as a commissioner — this is true — of the International Arabian Horse Association. I guess he stood out because most Bush appointees are well connected to Arabian people. The president has vowed to personally lead the investigation into the government's failed response to Katrina? Isn't that a job perhaps someone else should be doing?" –Jon Stewart "No, not at all, Jon. To truly find out what went wrong, it's important for an investigator to have a little distance from the situation. And it's hard to get any more distant from it than the president was last week." –-"Daily Show" correspondent Samantha Bee "A lot of people are now blaming President Bush for not evacuating New Orleans sooner. Hey, we're still trying to get him to evacuate Crawford, Texas. Took him five weeks to get out of there." --Jay Leno "Today President Bush asked if his visit to the hurricane zone would count toward the service time he still owes the National Guard." --Jay Leno "Many Americans are calling on President Bush to fire the head of FEMA Michael Brown because of the slow response to the crisis. Unfortunately, due to the red tape, firing Brown will take 6 to 8 months." --Conan O'Brien "Our president isn't exactly getting high marks for his handling of the catastrophe. People don't seem to realize, yes the hurricane has been devastating to the people who live in that area, but it has also ruined the last three days of his vacation. He has suffered too." --Jimmy Kimmel "President Bush sent Vice President Dick Cheney to New Orleans. Is that what they need down there? Another person requiring emergency medical help?" --Jay Leno "Congress announced a plan to rename the Gulf of Mexico. They want to call it Persian Gulf 2 in hopes that President Bush would send troops there faster." --Jay Leno |
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11 Sep 05 - 09:39 AM (#1560993) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: *daylia* All men have two heads. It varies man to man which head is in charge. When George was a young man it was almost certainly the smaller one. Y'know, this thought did not arise yesterday when contemplating Mr Bush's head. Or rather, heads. THis is definitely out of character .... I'm feeling a little flushed .... :~O He had 50 million people following him into the hell he has created, voting against their own interests last election ... Beyond compare? I donno, he's pretty unique. The whole world DOES marvel at how an obvious shallow illiterate won that job He IS a rare bird, but if you subscribe to the theory that the 2004 election was rigged, not 'won' ... and BTW according to his official bio and all of his supporters, he was healed, of alcoholism, by Billy Graham. That conversion is a huge source of his support. I knew he's a recovered alcoholic, but being healed by Billy Graham? Ooooooo Jack you've started shivers runnin up and down my spine now ... Say George fell victim to an assassination attempt sometime soon. According to a bit of intriguing American folklore called "Tecumseh's curse" or the "zero year curse", this would be no surprise - especially after October of this year. And considering the backlash rising against him now over the Katrina debacle, it's not too hard to imagine right? Well, say he was shot in the head, and then miraculously recovered. Imagine the bible-thumpin frenzy THAT would ignite! Egads heaven help us all ... I think I've had enough creative imagination for one day! Or maybe not *sigh* here goes one last thought. Shycat's account IS beautiful and amazing and thought-provoking. The problem with such anecdotes is that folks start feeling 'less than', thinking that only 'special' or 'enlightened' people have or are entitled to these amazing spiritual experiences. This is a self-defeating delusion. It's dangerous too, because it encourages people to seek spiritual or psychic phenonoma rather than the truth. I think that everyone has experiences like shycat's, if not consciously then in dreams. But until a person trains the mind to remember dreams, these experiences are simply forgotten upon awakening. Such experiences are a natural function of normal human consciousness - no more, no less - even though a lot of people think they are something highly unusual! Consider Newton's experience of the apple falling on his head. Having an apple bonk you while sitting under an apple tree is a natural course of events, certainly nothing to write home to mama about! What made it special was Newton's approach; his deeper awareness, his unprecedented interpretation of that particular experience. He recognized the deeper truth or Law inherent in a very common, perfectly natural event, and the whole world benefitted from his insights. IMHO everyday physical life itself is the ultimate miracle or "spiritual experience", when understood and undertaken in this light. |
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12 Sep 05 - 07:18 AM (#1561614) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Wolfgang still in the same frame of mind: What has always bothered me about Einstein's ...doesn't play dice quote is that Einstein has not used the word 'God' in it. He has written 'der Alte' (the Old; the old one) which is much more in line with his conception of a 'God', if there was one at all, as a 'God' in the sense of Spinoza. Someone (God, Nature, or what/whoever) has once made the laws of Nature and hasn't interfered with the world since then. Einstein was quite open minded about how the world and its laws have started (God, Nature, nobody,...). The whole Einstein quote in my very verbatim translation (letter to Max Born, 1926): Quantum mechanics is very awe inspiring. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory delivers a lot, but brings us hardly closer to the secret of the old one. I however am convinced that the old one doesn't throw dice. Wolfgang |
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12 Sep 05 - 12:15 PM (#1561825) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Bill D one wonders where the dice would be thrown.....and whether they are loaded. |
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12 Sep 05 - 12:21 PM (#1561834) Subject: RE: BS: George Bush---the anti-Christ From: Little Hawk If it is a personalized conception of God that troubles you, Wolfgang, then a much more impersonal version can readily be found in Taoism, Hinduism, Zen, Buddhism, and a number of other spiritual paths. Whether or not people personalize "the old one" or "the powers of Nature" is entirely up to them, having to do with their own personality type, I suppose. Does it really matter? |
