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23 Oct 05 - 07:18 PM (#1589278) Subject: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: hilda fish I seem to be riding the non-music threads often these days! A bit of contemplation - yesterday - at a funeral! - someone challenged my job saying I supported a terrible system by working where I work. I thought about it and attempted to talk about it but this person, with others, just held their position. So .... I work in the prison system here, in a difficult job. The people I was challenged by believe that everyone in prison is not guilty or a victim of 'the system'. While this is often the case in race, sociological and economic terms, in very many cases they have also done things that can't be ignored. they've done really horrible things. These people think that those who fit into this category should just be 'done away' with and I think that is a way of making fellow human beings invisible. At the same time they are oppositional to the death penalty as am I. The people in prisons that I deal with are still people, still human. They are not the sum total of what they have done but they are the sum total of their whole lives. What I felt was that those who challenged me had the same mentality as those (the so-called right wing) they oppose - which is not so much lock them up and throw away the key but just forget them (prisoners that is). Make a stand and then do nothing in other words. Or am I being too harsh? I'm sounding a bit confused here but I am not ashamed of engaging in prison work and I don't seem myself as supporting an oppressive system. I am actually proud that I support people who have no other support and are supremely judged by society as a whole. I deal with people who are so dangerous that they have to be shackled hand and foot - a situation that most people I suppose would not engage in, and yes it is very difficult to accept treatment of human beings on these terms but I also want to live. Yet these people are human like I and entitled to good health care, good education, coourtesy and kindness, and most importantly they are entitled not to be forgotten. We can all change I suppose and that is the level I engage in my job on. There is hope for everyone. Yet I have to constantly reflect on these sort of challenges in the same way one has to reflect on the impact on the environment everytime we shop at the supermarket - or do we? Anyway there are many jobs which are seen as 'beyond the pale' I suppose and I am coming to think that these judgemental attitudes are a way of not dealing with the terrible things that they actually think they are making a stand about - yet it is an ongoing relfection. The songs about people who have suffered in the system are many but I can't think of many that actually recognise say, pedaphiles, as human. Some of these jobs that are judged, where I live at least, are working for the Department of Social Security, working for the Police Force, working for the Department of Corrective Services, working for the Department of Immigration, Working for the Department of Community Services. All these professions have on one hand a bureaucracy that has unacceptable political policies and on the other have individual human beings that need support within an inhumane system. Is that supporting 'the system'. I'm interested in 'opinion' and add apologies for sounding convoluted. |
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23 Oct 05 - 07:21 PM (#1589282) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Peace We are all part of The Machine, hilda. |
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23 Oct 05 - 07:27 PM (#1589286) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Peace You are a good part. |
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23 Oct 05 - 07:48 PM (#1589299) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: jacqui.c IMHO there is a need for 'the system'. It can support and protect the population as a whole. Part of the purpose of prisons should be to protect society as a whole from the wrongdoer, whatever the motive is for the crime. Whilst there may be good reasons for their behaviour it is still the case that they will have caused harm to others in whatever way and putting them in prison prevents their reoffending for a period of time. If there is any chance of rehabilitation whilst they are incarcerated so much the better. I wonder what your critics would like to do with violent criminals rather than put them in prison? Would they still feel the same if it were they or those they know who were victims of crime? Having worked with victims of crime I know how they can be affected by someone else's wrongdoing. Where do they come into the equation, or are they forgotten in favour of the 'poor criminal'? I do believe that the vast majority of law abiding people do deserve the protection of the law. This, to me, should be a higher priority than the rights of lawbreakers not to be imprisoned. In a perfect world the conditions that can lead to a person becoming a criminal would not exist. This is not a perfect world and we have to make certain decisions for the benefit of the majority. In those circumstances I have nothing but admiration for those who take on the difficult job of staffing prisons - not a job that I would ever want to do. |
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23 Oct 05 - 07:54 PM (#1589304) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Peace I taught in a maximum security prison for a year. True. Most folks don't want that type of work. BUT, it's gotta be done. |
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23 Oct 05 - 08:03 PM (#1589312) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: hilda fish thanks jacqui.c - for me it's a balance of equality in that the law-breakers, who indeed have done horrible things, have equality as much as the victims of crime. Difficult but in most cases the lawbreakers suffer inequality in society eg. usa where the vast majority are black, native american, middle eastern, islander or hispanic. same in australia where indigenous are 2% of the population as a whole but 25% of the prison population and where once again asian, middle eastern, islander and indigenous are the vast majority of the population. the law has a beauty when it works in that it has balance and equality - and justice for all. I guess I really love the idea of justice rather than retribution - difficulty is that there is no policies anywhere in the world for rehabilitation per se. no-one is obliged to rehabilitate only seek retribution. It is important to me that justice serves in equal parts the victim and the lawbreaker. there is peace in that. the 'reasons' I guess for bad behaviour or ultimately excuses for something that justice says cannot be tolerated, and really, the lawbreaker knows that. However often enough in my experience, the victim wants retribution which is perfectly understandable but historically has been the reasoning behind such things as lynch mobs. Prison I suppose one could say supports an equality of justice for all as much as it can oppress and discriminate. It's difficult to balance a concept of a 'perfect world' with the practical and pragmatic day to day considerations of life and survival. I am going on a bit aren't I? Sorry. |
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23 Oct 05 - 08:08 PM (#1589317) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Peace That same kind of stat holds true in Canada where Native North Americans make up 5% of the population and about 30% of the prison population. Sorry to interrupt the posts here. BFN. |
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23 Oct 05 - 08:43 PM (#1589338) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: dianavan You say, "All these professions have on one hand a bureaucracy that has unacceptable political policies and on the other have individual human beings that need support within an inhumane system." Sounds like my job. I'm a teacher! Seriously, hilda, I have heard that you can judge a civilized society by how it treats its prisoners. These prisoners are probably lucky to have you and we are lucky to have you do a job that not many want to do. |
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23 Oct 05 - 08:46 PM (#1589344) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: bobad I have heard that you can judge a civilized society by how it treats it's poor. |
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23 Oct 05 - 08:53 PM (#1589347) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Rapparee EVERYONE deserves respect simply because they are human. Their actions might be abhorrent, disgusting, and other words. But the people themselves are human. In prison or out. |
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23 Oct 05 - 08:56 PM (#1589352) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Peace |
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23 Oct 05 - 09:25 PM (#1589372) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Gurney I'll vote with Jacqui C, it is OUR herd, and if the wolves choose to behave like that, then woe betide them. All the same, it is very hard to determine who is the criminal, sometimes. I've never committed a 'crime' by my standards, but in the long ago I have driven drunk, and so put innocent lives at serious and unjustified risk. But, how about if I did that regularly? Or how about if I was a Typhoid carrier who's only profession was food preparation? There is also the fiscal cost of crime, like how much fuel does the school run cost the world, just because of a few paedophiles? How about legal aid? Shouldn't that be paid back by the proven-Guilty? I cannot find a cut-and-dried answer to very much at all, but modern sickly-liberal-do-gooderness certainly isn't the answer, because the problems are getting observably worse. Perhaps, in this day when so many jobs are being exported to cheap-labour countries, one of them should be prisons. Surely China or somewhere would love to give our Western criminals board? Someone would give Hilda a job, with better company. |
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23 Oct 05 - 09:28 PM (#1589375) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Peace |
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23 Oct 05 - 09:32 PM (#1589377) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Peace Thought that's how present-day Australia got its start? |
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23 Oct 05 - 10:06 PM (#1589395) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Bobert Oh, don't even get me started... I've worked as a jail house GED teacher, a counselor in an in-house drug rahab program and mayn years as a social worker worker in adult sericves, where a large number of my case load came from either jails or mental hospitals... The system is backwards!!! It is too heavilly based on punishment and not nearly enough on habilitation... Firgeu "rehabilitation" because that implies that a lot of olks in the sysytem were "habilitataed"... They weren't... You ain't gonna rehab someone who never knew anything else but to do dumbass stuff... What we need is true "habiliiation" What we need is public/private partbnerships with businesses investin' in prison populations... What I mean by this is, like a GM 'er Magnovox, 'er, 'er, settin' up shops in prisons and makin' stuff right there in the prisons and teachin folks how to be part of a team and then when these folks get out they move on to the public side of the corporation...Workin' on the outside fir same employer they had worked for in the joint... That is the blue-print fir change... It ain't gonna stop all recivitists but it's gonna knock the heck out of it... Most folks go back becuase they don't have a clue about livin' in the real world, they don't have no jobs and they jsut, fir the fact of the matter, give a danged about much of anything... My hat's off to you, hilda.... Been there... The system ain't in a good place for turnin' out much in the way of success.... Bobert |
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23 Oct 05 - 10:23 PM (#1589401) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: CarolC I don't have any opinions or insights into any of your thoughts or about the things you have experienced, but you do seem to have done a very good job of retaining your humanity and your sense of your humanity in a job that can be very dehumanizing for everyone involved. I think that must be a great gift. I think it's good that the world has people who are able to do what you are doing for a living with the perspective you bring to it. |
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23 Oct 05 - 10:31 PM (#1589404) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: CarolC I'd like to rephrase what I said a bit... You do seem to have done a very good job of retaining your humanity and your sense of your humanity in a setting that can be very dehumanizing for everyone involved. |
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23 Oct 05 - 10:55 PM (#1589408) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Kaleea I would think that persons would be instead saying something akin to, "you're a better man than I Gunga Din." It seems as though no matter what one believes in, or what one does for a living, or etc., there are those who enjoy banding together for the attack. My psych profs taught that such behavior-putting down others- is usually all about inflating one's own ego, often when the one feels threatened upon meeting a better person. People can quickly rationalize improper &/or immoral behavior when they band together with others of a similar mindset. When I was teaching, I often heard the parents say that there was nothing wrong with their children, it was the teachers who were at fault. But heaven forbid that one's profession be Musician (not classical)! Now, that is one profession which is often maligned, spindled, folded & mutilated. Even worse, the Banjoist & the accordionist. Worst of all, lowliest of the low-the Bodhran player! Cries of "Fetch m' gun n' m' jug!" can be heard. (& yes, I sometimes play my Bodhran in bands) |
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23 Oct 05 - 11:12 PM (#1589410) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Clinton Hammond "EVERYONE deserves respect simply because they are human." Adolph Hitler was a human... So was John Wayne Gacey... and Carla Holmolka... Just to name a few... I respect none of them... And I respect no one who does... " It is too heavilly based on punishment" Bullflop... prison, first and foremost is about punishment... or rather, if it was, it MIGHT actually serve as a deterrent... |
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23 Oct 05 - 11:21 PM (#1589412) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Janie Hilda, I hear that you are commenting. about the dialectic involved in being both a servant and a gatekeeper that those of us in social work, education and other public "service" work juggle constantly. Not everyone recognizes the dialectical process. Sounds like you are cognizant of both thesis and antithesis. The dialectical process involves find the synthesis of the two. Of course, within each synthesis at which one arrives are the seeds of the next level of thesis and antithesis. I believe the "system" represents one synthesis of opposing values around the individual vs. society. It is an attempt at balance. Our social institutions are always juggling those values, just as we as individuals are always juggling those values. The dialectical process is powerfully dynamic. For some, the synthesis will lead to them working within the system. For others, it will mean working outside of it. And at any given time, no matter what synthesis at which we have arrived, we are soon grappling with the new thesis and antithesis that immediately begin to emerge. That is one reason why I think many of us with strong values around serving and working with disadvantaged populations tend to move back and forth working within at times, and without at other times. Janie |
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24 Oct 05 - 01:45 AM (#1589436) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Ebbie In a small community like Juneau, Alaska, where you are on a first name basis with the Mayor (He's a folk dancer) and the Governor (hmmmmm. Not the current one- he's just a touch too right for me), and where there is a local correctional facility, some staff and inmates both are inevitably well known to us. I'm friends with four correctional people- three of them are very good musicians. None of them is a hardnosed guy although each of them has a clear-eyed view of the gazillion ways a person can go wrong and stay there. I do believe that each of these friends is still in there pitching, hoping to make a difference. In the meantime their first concern is to keep the community and the facility safe. One of them put in his 20 years then retired and came back working in the Halfway House. Recently he has started teaching GED to inmates, so for the first time in 25 years he has a 9 to 5 job. He is not a starry eyed idealist but his is a gentle soul and if I were to be on the other side of the fence he is the one I'd want as my go to guy. He sings songs that none of the rest of us find, songs by Shel Silverstein, Steve Goodman, John Prine, Randy Newman, Jesse Winchester, you get the idea, songs that are funny, poignant, gritty, loving and wise in turn. I will never look with a jaundiced eye upon people working in the correctional field. I wish them the best. |
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24 Oct 05 - 10:09 AM (#1589648) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: GUEST,leeneia 1. Hilda, when you wrote "I thought about it and attempted to talk about it but this person, with others, just held their position," you showed that these people are not worth worrying about. They didn't want to learn anything new, and in my view they are subhuman, though perhaps temporarily. I guess they were too full of themselves to consider that you, who work with criminals all day and every day, might know something about them. 2. What kind of low-order person starts a wrangle at a funeral,for heaven's sake? |
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24 Oct 05 - 10:20 AM (#1589659) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Richard Bridge Some prisoners just deserve retribution |
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24 Oct 05 - 02:25 PM (#1589836) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Peace True, Richard. And some just don't deserve to be in prison at all. Donald Marshall, Willie Nepoose, David Milgard. Three major mistakes by our police and courts. All three did seven or more years for crimes they did not commit. When asked my position on capital punishment, I cite those names as my argument against it. |
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24 Oct 05 - 04:22 PM (#1589943) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: katlaughing Brings to mind "The Oxbow Incicdent." I agree with what CarolC. said, Hilda. Goodonya and dont' elt the idjits bother you! Last year's Season Two of "Starting Over" had a woman on who was in charge of all of the prison guards in a facility in Montana, I think it was. Candy was there to learn how to recognise her feminine side. She'd felt, rightly so, from what she told, that she had to be more like the male guards, etc. to keep her position, plus her father seems to have put little value on daughters who "prettied themselves up." IMO, she was full of compassion, heart, beauty and understanding for others, but not for herself. That's what she was in the Starting Over house to learn about. I just checked her "Where are they now" page. It was blank, but I did find a fan posting elsewhere which says she was demoted at work for having taken the time to go to the Starting Over house. Wankers! Hats off to you, Hilda, for working at such a job and for your healthful outlook. Thanks for sharing, kat |
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24 Oct 05 - 04:52 PM (#1589968) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: kendall For once I agree with CH. I am against the death penalty, but we keep dangerous animals in cages, and they don't know any better. |
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24 Oct 05 - 10:48 PM (#1590217) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: dianavan bobad - I think we are both paraphrasing Dostoyevsky. |
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25 Oct 05 - 08:48 PM (#1590820) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: GUEST who reads Dostoyevsky anymore, except hapless college students majoring in Russian literature? ...paraphrasing Jennifer Connelley's character in "Waking The Dead": "cogs in the machine mostly just go round and round, then they wear out." |
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26 Oct 05 - 02:55 PM (#1591030) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: GUEST,Art Thieme Lenny Bruce said, as a joke, but with wisdom too, "We need the squares. They run the subways!" I appreciate all that you are doing, Hilda. And I'm not saying you are square at all. Yours is a job many shy away from. Thanks for doing it with the thought you've obviously put into it. Art |
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27 Oct 05 - 02:26 AM (#1591531) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Bob Bolton G'day Peace: From: Peace - PM Date: 23 Oct 05 - 09:32 PM Thought that's how present-day Australia got its start? Yeah ... after the Poms lost their long-term dumping ground in America, when that bunch of felons rebelled, they needed a quick solution. However it didn't last anywhere near as long before the new lot rejected the system. Regard(les)s, Bob |
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27 Oct 05 - 09:04 PM (#1592148) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Gurney Nope, Bob, you kept the system, just biffed the overseers. |
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28 Oct 05 - 04:51 PM (#1592645) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Charmion hilda fish, you are getting a modern-day civilian version of the slap-down a whole generation of North American and European soldiers and veterans received, beginning about 1968 and in some quarters continuing to this day. Fresh out of the armed forces in 1980, I was sneered at by fellow undergraduates who told me I had "sold my soul to the military-industrial complex" because I "loved violence" (I was a medic) and "needed someone to tell me what to do". Canadian soldiers in uniform generally don't get called "baby-killer" these days, but quite nice people will calmly write that they are a "necessary evil". There's no arguing with those people, and at some point one decides that putting up with that crap is part of what one is paid for. It's a social truism that police officers, correctional staff and military personnel tend to socialize within their professional circle. Guess why? |
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28 Oct 05 - 05:01 PM (#1592655) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: Donuel The only thing hilda lacks is indentation for seperate paragraphs. |
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28 Oct 05 - 08:44 PM (#1592812) Subject: RE: BS: don't know what to call this ... From: freda underhill Jail is a system that makes most people worse, including the jailers. people can become institutionalised on either side of the razor wire. its easy to condemn criminals and want to be completely separate from the systems set up to deal with them. some sociopaths end up in jail, some in politics. no one can change a sociopath, but the political ones are harder to recognise & are just as dangerous. as well as criminals, jails house abused kids, people with mental problems, people with addiction problems, people with low IQs. some detainees have never committed a crime (asylum seekers) and some of these are deported, and killed on return. others who fight deportation can be interred for years, and go mad inside. the most vindictive people always start from the stance that the people they are abusing are bad. In Australia currently, we have politicians who have taken bribes making laws to detain people without trial. They are using people's fear of the "other" to destroy democracy. it is hard to respect a system that is so corrupt. People who have been made powerless appreciate those who care. I have a friend who like Hilda works with women in jail - she also helps them when they come out, halping them get established. but, she picks and chooses. People like Hilda and my friend JD can transform people's lives, by treating people with respect. and I agree with Donuel!! |