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23 Nov 05 - 10:28 AM (#1611963) Subject: shakespeare From: wendyNY My daughter is learning shakespeare in school right now and its the romeo and Juliet one... I can't believe they are still learning this useless junk in school. when i was back in school in 1977 we learned the same stuff i think its time to forget about the shakespeare stories whos up for it! |
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23 Nov 05 - 10:40 AM (#1611970) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Wesley S If you have to ask the question you'll never understand the answer. But yes - I do believe the schools should be teaching the "Romeo and Juliet one" |
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23 Nov 05 - 10:41 AM (#1611971) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Wilfried Schaum junk is beautiful |
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23 Nov 05 - 11:21 AM (#1611992) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Amos Oh, let's get rid of all our cultural icons and go with comic books and soap operas and "Survivor" and Kentucky Fried Chicken. Otherwise we might have to think too hard about why people are the way they are; we might have to confront issues like good and evil in the world, love and authoritarian control, and why young poeple should think twice before killing themselves. Let's be contrarian And turn barbarian We'll throw the books out in the trash! We'll be ethereal Until venereal Infections start a nasty rash. Let's live like vultures, Disown our cultures And kick those bookworms out on their ears Mob rule's appealing-o Let's go with feeling-o And turn the clock back several hundred years! .... A |
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23 Nov 05 - 12:30 PM (#1612026) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Lonesome EJ And nothing can we call our own but death And that small model of the barren earth Which serves as paste and cover to our bones. For God's sake, let us sit upon the ground And tell sad stories of the death of kings. King Richard II. Act iii. Sc. 2. What truths do such words hold for a world where dignity is valued less than attitude, where beauty is held trivial to sensuality? I agree. It's high time these archaic works were banished from school. Shakespeare has much he would teach us, but it is just possible we have lost the capacity to learn. |
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23 Nov 05 - 12:37 PM (#1612031) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Paul Burke Shakespeare's good, but the way it's often done in schools, you'd think he was the ONLY playwright. When the Boy was doing mcB, when he got bored I introduced him to Aristophanes' Lysistrata which he found a bit more amusing. Shakespeare should be done as drama, not as hagiography. |
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23 Nov 05 - 12:49 PM (#1612039) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: alanabit You are right Paul. It can be bloody funny too. Parts of Richard III can be hilarious if they are done well. |
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23 Nov 05 - 12:54 PM (#1612042) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: treewind Please don't feed the trolls. |
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23 Nov 05 - 01:00 PM (#1612045) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: sian, west wales Dear me. I never thought good ol' Port Colborne High School was up to much but I could well be wrong. We did a Shakespeare in English every year but we also did Eugene O'Neil, Tennessee Williams, Bernard Shaw and a host of others and there was a school trip to Stratford (Ontario) annually as well. We also read them aloud, and a few of us even staged them (many of us ended up in drama school and creative industry careers). And then there were all the great fiction we did: Catcher in the Rye, Who Has Seen the Wind, Oliver Twist, Sunshine Sketches, ... God bless PCHS and all who sailed/sail in her! Here's an idea: keep the great texts, ditch the bad teachers. siân |
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23 Nov 05 - 03:38 PM (#1612228) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: GUEST,Val Fear not! The Bard and other fine literature are being adapted to a form far more suitable to the upcoming generation - the abbreviated communication used in Text Messaging. See this report from CNN as an aside, this happens to touch on one of my favorite soapbox-issues: communication shapes cognition, so we are training a culture whose thoughts are all rapid response, abbreviated verbiage, and emotions that can be expressed by punctuation marks rather than people who can think in complete SENTANCES, much less in-depth paragraphs. |
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23 Nov 05 - 03:55 PM (#1612240) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: alanabit SENTANCES? |
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23 Nov 05 - 03:58 PM (#1612241) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Georgiansilver Learning is learning however you view it. I believe Shaskespeare has a quantity of learning in the pages of its volumes....I learnt from it...didn't you? Best wishes, Mike. |
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23 Nov 05 - 04:21 PM (#1612271) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: TheBigPinkLad To thine own self be true. |
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23 Nov 05 - 04:46 PM (#1612294) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: GUEST,Bob Coltman There's a remedy. Stop regarding Shakespeare as an icon. Take under advisement the thought that Will the S may not be the Greatest Playwright in the History of the World. Maybe not even in the ten best. It's refreshing to think of him that way. Just a guy that writes plays. Just another working stiff, putting words on a page. A colleague of, say, Harold Pinter and Sam Beckett who just happens to talk a weird four-centuries-old dialect. But who, if listened to carefully, can surprise you with a lance of light into your brain. Does wonders for me. I tackle Shakespeare from a cockeyed angle, and, given his terms of looking at the world, find him (or her -- who knows, maybe Anne Hathaway wrote the plays :) -- fresh as this morning's daisy...freed from all that Literary Worship that only gets in the way. But then on the other hand, I'm nuts. |
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23 Nov 05 - 04:56 PM (#1612299) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: JennyDeckner "Here's an idea: keep the great texts, ditch the bad teachers." Amen, Sian! I think it's vital that young people are encouraged to learn Shakespeare not only because his plays are beautiful, classic literature but because his stories are still such a huge part of cultural venacular. Shakespeare's tales are like bible stories; knowledge of these text is vital to appreciation of so many other works. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, Shakespeare is rarely taught well on the high school level. In fact, little is taught well on the high school level in my community. When Shakespeare is being taught by passionless teachers who are barely familiar with the text themselves and teach it only out of obligation, can the students be expected to find any enjoyment or beauty in them? When certain nuances are beaten like a dead horse and others completely ignored? I was taught Macbeth when I was a junior in high school. Toward the end of the unit, after I failed the exam, I discovered that my teacher hadn't actually read the damn thing in thirty years and had based her curriculum solely around Roman Polanski's film adaptation. Wendy, please ask your daughter what other authors she's been taught in school. Hopefully, she'll provide you with a nutritious balance of authors from all eras and corners of the world. |
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23 Nov 05 - 05:03 PM (#1612306) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Big Al Whittle nah! ditch the crap kids, keep the teachers, throw out the kentucky fried shakespeare, keep the arguments of insidious intent, if you go down the pizza hut, I'll have extra cheese...... |
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23 Nov 05 - 05:35 PM (#1612333) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: OtherDave A lot of people argue that the plays were not written by William Shakespeare, but by another person with the same name... |
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23 Nov 05 - 05:45 PM (#1612340) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Lighter Shakespeare seems like "junk" to people because our schools don't impart the reading skills needed to understand what's on the page. They sure didn't when I was in junior high. |
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23 Nov 05 - 11:03 PM (#1612531) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: jacqui.c I've generally found that I leave a performance of a Shakespeare play thinking about the attitudes and behaviours of the characters. IMHO the guy was an amazing student of human nature and his plays can be as relevant today as they were when first performed. |
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23 Nov 05 - 11:24 PM (#1612547) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Peace "My daughter is learning shakespeare in school right now and its the romeo and Juliet one... I can't believe they are still learning this useless junk in school. when i was back in school in 1977 we learned the same stuff i think its time to forget about the shakespeare stories whos up for it!" Truthfully, I think the daughter wrote this. |
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23 Nov 05 - 11:36 PM (#1612554) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Stilly River Sage Bored with MacBeth? Not enough blood and guts, perhaps? Have him try Titus Andronicus. Sure the mother could have written the remark. It takes a dense parent to raise a dense child. SRS |
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24 Nov 05 - 04:07 AM (#1612609) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Paul Burke Ah well, to justify this being above the line: When the Girl was 14 she decided to teach herself to play the piano. She'd tried violin when she was 10, and it was disastrous, she was worse after a year's teaching than when she started. Not a positive experience. Anyway, after that we didn't push it until she decided for herself. One finger picking out tunes developed gradually into more adventurous stuff, eventually after a few months both hands playing. Then one evening, I was just outside the door of the room with the piano, when I heard this most remarkable noise. The Girl SINGING! I'd left a booklet of 17th century ballads, with simple accompaniments included, by the piano. She'd picked this up, looking for something new to try, found "Fortune My Foe" easy and satisfying enough, and was carolling away at the ballad set to it: "The Tragickall History of Titus Andronicus", all 34 verses of human depravity. She took up rock and bass guitar not long after. |
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24 Nov 05 - 04:22 AM (#1612615) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: sian, west wales It's interesting that this has come up when it has, as we currently have the BBC's Shakespeare series on air ... and it's superb! The Twelfth Night was choc-a-bloc with singing. Can't wait for Midsummer's Night Dream. At least part of this package is bound to show up on North American PBS or similar. Keep an eye out for it. As an aside, I know someone who is on a local board in upstate NY which has just voted to close the library because they see it as an unnecessary expense. One despairs. siân |
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24 Nov 05 - 07:19 AM (#1612717) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: AllisonA(Animaterra) "Shakespeare should be done as drama, not as hagiography." Amen to that! My daughter is benefiting from just such a high school course right now. They block the scenes, discuss motivation, research the history, get inside the characters- exactly as if they were going to produce the plays. And in fact, they are required to perform one scene or snippet of choice at the annual "One Acts" performance in January. My kid is going to be Viola: "Make me a willow cabin at your door..." Shakespeare may not be the only playwrite, but he was a master of the language and of an understanding of human nature. |
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24 Nov 05 - 07:27 AM (#1612721) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Hopfolk I had to read that bloody awful "Catcher In The Rye" nonsense so I see no reason why American kids shouldn't have to read the Bard. CamoJohn |
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24 Nov 05 - 08:47 AM (#1612746) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Mooh What, and "shake all cares and business from our age...while we unburdened crawl toward death."? Or "that men should put an enemy in their mouths to steal away their brains, that we should with joy, pleasance, revel and applause, transform ourselves into beasts!"? And replace it with what, rap? Why get an education at all? Peace, Mooh. |
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24 Nov 05 - 10:59 AM (#1612840) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Peace King Lear. It was one of the scenes that were cut. |
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24 Nov 05 - 11:01 AM (#1612841) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Ron Davies Yup, no doubt about it--- instead of Shakespeare they should teach something kids can actually use--like the Complete Works of 50 Cent. |
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24 Nov 05 - 11:03 AM (#1612842) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Peace Yeah. Let's stop Shakespeare, Chaucer, Spenser--hell, let's just stop teaching anything that's difficult. Dumb it all down. Let's teach the kids that everything in life is easy to understand, and if at first ya don't 'get it', screw it, because it couldn't have meant anything important anyway. Sounds like a plan. I bet the person who started this thread votes for 'guess who', and I don't mean the old rock group. |
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24 Nov 05 - 11:15 AM (#1612846) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Ron Davies You can also, I believe, get a general idea of the education the originator of this thread had, by reading her (?) post. Another towering intellect--or possibly a troll. |
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24 Nov 05 - 11:23 AM (#1612852) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: GUEST,Lighter Troll or not, her view is not uncommon. There's now a paperback series called "No Fear Shakespeare" that prints the original text opposite a bland but surprisingly accurate modern paraphrase. This is the place for open-minded Bardophobics to start. |
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24 Nov 05 - 02:44 PM (#1613010) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Peace The student statement that bugs me more than any other: "I don't get it". My usual response are words to the effect that the author is writing in English and s/he is not intentionally hiding anything. Somewhere along the line we have taught kids (and judging by the posts, one or two adults) that lyrics will jump off the page of their own volition and say, THIS IS WHAT I MEAN. Shakespeare wrote in Modern English. Heck, even the Middle English of Chaucer is fairly simple. I could understand if the text was in Old English. However, on occasion when I have read The Lord's Prayer to students, they have basically understood. "Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; Si þin nama gehalgod to becume þin rice gewurþe ðin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele soþlice." or The Lord's Prayer in Old English Matthew 6:9-13. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; [59k] Father our thou that art in heavens Si þin nama gehalgod [44k] be thy name hallowed to becume þin rice [37k] come thy kingdom gewurþe ðin willa [43k] be-done thy will on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. [53k] on earth as in heavens urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg [68k] our daily bread give us today and forgyf us ure gyltas [55k] and forgive us our sins swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum [65k] as we forgive those-who-have-sinned-against-us and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge [57k] and not lead thou us into temptation ac alys us of yfele soþlice [69k] but deliver us from evil. truly. Let's stop making EVERYTHING easy. |
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24 Nov 05 - 03:30 PM (#1613043) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Amos The intellect fails and erodes when not put to use. Why would anyone want to teach that way? I'm witchoo, Peace. Make them work for an understanding. Otherwise, they won't have a leg to stand on, and will be footless. And hence, without understanding. A |
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24 Nov 05 - 06:19 PM (#1613123) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Grab Just read a book by a guy called Gervase Phinn, who's a schools inspector in Yorkshire (N England). Kind of James Herriot in schools. Anyway, one story is that he goes into a classroom to find two kids out the front of class slagging each other off and drawing knives. He jumps in to stop them, and then finds it's practise for staging R & J. :-) R&J generally ain't one of his best, I have to say. It's wonderful until about 3/4 through, then he pulls that crappy "let's-make-it-a-tragedy" bit out of his arse which lets down everything that went before it. For a better one, try King Lear or Macbeth. The BBC did "Macbeth on the Estate" about 10 years back, set in a criminal-run English tower block estate and using many people who'd never acted before, and it was phenomenal. But most of the comedies don't work today. They're too based on wordplay, and we simply don't speak the same language today. For all that Peace says he was writing in English, he wasn't writing in any form of English that's familiar to us today. Imagine trying to perform The Importance of Being Earnest to an audience that doesn't know what trains, stations, handbags or prams are... Plus too many of Shakespeare's plot devices (mistaken identity for one) look stale and boring today (they weren't even original in Shakespeare's time), and frankly modern audiences have come to expect better plotlines than most of the comedies have to offer. If we see Shakespeare as just another playwright, then these are the equivalent of him doing hack work for a sitcom to make a few quid. The only comedies that really work are the ones with a somewhat stronger plot - so Midsummer Night's Dream and Twelfth Night, for examples. Oh, and if people really want to attract kids to Shakespeare, then leave the rude bits in! Graham. |
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24 Nov 05 - 06:19 PM (#1613124) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Peace Right now, I have two Grade 8 students who have memorized Act 2, Scene 2 from Romeo and Juliet (more commonly called the balcony scene. They do it well, Another has memorized "To be or not to be" from Hamlet. Another the "Is this a dagger I see before me" from Macbeth. Another--Mark Antony speaking to the body of Caesar. Another the "Friends, Romans, Countrymen . . .". Another has committed "Give me liberty or give me death" by Patrick Henry to memory (all 1200 words of it, and after she presents it one feels like fighting the British). Another will be doing "The Gettysburg Address", another--well, you get the idea. I will not under any circumstance sell kids or their abilities to the lowest bidder (which is usually the old cop out: Gee, I can't do THAT! or Gee, that's too hard for a thirteen-year-old). I got a hot flash. NO, it ain't! Some students will have to do things that are somewhat easier, but they WILL do it and be proud of themselves for doing so. |
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24 Nov 05 - 06:25 PM (#1613127) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Peace PS I did not learn to spell using spellcheck. Neither will my students. |
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24 Nov 05 - 06:52 PM (#1613139) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad Yeah - Romeo and Juliet is just too darn tough. Try watching "West Side Story" instead. |
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25 Nov 05 - 04:56 AM (#1613382) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: alanabit Telling kids that everything they should do has to be easy, is only really a euphemism for telling them that they are second rate. I will remove my children from that sort of teaching if they are ever exposed to it. Good on you Peace. |
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25 Nov 05 - 08:31 AM (#1613490) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: A Wandering Minstrel Hmm Romeo and Juliet: Underage sex, Inter-group rivalry, Anti-social behaviour with brawling and murder in the streets, Connivance and duplicity by a person in authority, Tragic consequences of imperfect communication, love joining two people across a cultural divide... nope nothing much to do with the modern day :-( Shakespeare is for performing and the best way to learn and understand is to perform it. |
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25 Nov 05 - 12:07 PM (#1613621) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: GUEST,robert I am definitly with the make kids work to understand Shakespeare camp. I had a rather good Shakespeare experiance in highschool, and did not find it too difficult to understand (even the comedies), though I do have to read them, and can't just watch them and pick up on everything. However I was observing a highschool english class once for teaching class I was taking in college, and saw something that made me sick. The class was "studying" MacBeth, by listening to a tape of people "reading" the text without any real emotion. Then I think they were told to read a coulpe of scenes themselves, and the watched some of a televised version of it. I saw one or two kids fall asleep, and several more complain of how boring it was. The scariest thing was that I sympathized with them. I was angry and saddend after leaving that class. But the bard will live on. With or without the schools help. |
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25 Nov 05 - 04:12 PM (#1613754) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: GUEST I'm currently studying Twelfth Night at school and absolutely love it. My english teacher is fantastic but I don't understand how anyone who can read cannot appreciate Shakespeares work. |
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25 Nov 05 - 05:02 PM (#1613781) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: kendall It's useless to play the violin in front of an ox. |
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25 Nov 05 - 05:20 PM (#1613788) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad Kendall - I disagree - at least the violinist gets in some practice. |
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25 Nov 05 - 06:00 PM (#1613814) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: BuckMulligan They may not get it. It may be hard. It may be confusing. They may have to actually work, mentally. But if they do, then it won't be too hard for them, they will get it, and they won't be confused by it. Self esteem is earned by achievement. |
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25 Nov 05 - 08:04 PM (#1613869) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: The Fooles Troupe Without knowledge by the audience of Shakespeare, Wayne & Shuster's 'Rinse The Blood Off My Toga' would be hard at it to raise a laugh. What are you doing here? I'm Mark Antony. I just gave a spech over the dead body of Cease. I said "Friends, Romans Countrymen, lend me your ears..." What you got in the bag? Ears!!!! There was a TV kids program called 'Biker Mice' which a certain young teenager was very keen on. She wasn't at all interested in "Literature", so when we laughed and told here that the show was a ripoff of 'Hamlet', she was astonished. So we got here to watch several tapes of various versions of Hamlet. She started writing creative fiction. |
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25 Nov 05 - 10:42 PM (#1613920) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Ron Davies The authorship question (Otherdave 23 Nov 5:35 PM)--(Stratford, Oxford or ?) is a separate topic--and there's already a thread on it. The plays were written by a genius (or more than one) who has enriched the language beyond belief. 50 Cent is not quite there yet. |
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25 Nov 05 - 10:56 PM (#1613924) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: EBarnacle Saw the Central Park (NY) production of "Two Gentlemen of Verona" with Lady Hillary 2x this Summer. Totally applicable to the current political situation. Enjoyed it both times. |
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25 Nov 05 - 11:23 PM (#1613931) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Thomas the Rhymer Shakespeare was about 46 years old when the "King James" Bible was presented... If you look at Psalm 46, the 46th word is shake, and the 46th word from the end... ...is spear. Will wonders never cease? ttr |
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26 Nov 05 - 01:10 PM (#1614169) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: kendall I can't speak for the rest of the world, but from what I've seen, the dumbing down of America has gone far enough. |
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26 Nov 05 - 06:22 PM (#1614323) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: cryptoanubis The hardest knife ill-used doth lose his edge sonnet 95 |
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26 Nov 05 - 09:57 PM (#1614405) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: BuckMulligan Kendall - the dumbing-down (of America or anywhere else) won't stop anytime soon. But there are still opportunities for people who give a shit to prod the young to think and strive, and to connect with the world beyond the end of their nose. And maybe that's all anyone can really hope for - to light a few fires. One way is by insisting on teaching "hard stuff" in school, especially literature; another is to keep traditions such as all the odes of folk music alive. Some of us do it on purpose, and some of us just can't help ourselves. Sic semper.... |
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26 Nov 05 - 09:59 PM (#1614406) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: BuckMulligan that should have been "all the modes of folk music" but then "odes" doesn't suck either. |
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27 Nov 05 - 08:32 AM (#1614624) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: kendall I still correct my children's grammar whenever they stray, and they still resent it, but most of the time they use proper English. (At least they do when I'm around.) On occasion, they will thank me for holding their feet to the fire, especially when they hear their peers butcher the language. |
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27 Nov 05 - 08:40 AM (#1614634) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Azizi Peace, You're the kind of teacher I wish I had had. Thanks for caring about your students and challenging them to do what others think is beyond them. I'm glad that they are proving those nay sayers wrong. |
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27 Nov 05 - 02:01 PM (#1614826) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Helen I read all the sonnets in order, and from start to finish it is a play in itself. It's Shakespeare's own love story. I love the sonnets, but this is my favourite - but I can't see that anyone would think it is still relevant today, not even in the daytime soapies, let alone in our own love lives. :-) Helen XXXIV. Why didst thou promise such a beauteous day, And make me travel forth without my cloak, To let base clouds o'ertake me in my way, Hiding thy bravery in their rotten smoke? 'Tis not enough that through the cloud thou break, To dry the rain on my storm-beaten face, For no man well of such a salve can speak That heals the wound and cures not the disgrace: Nor can thy shame give physic to my grief; Though thou repent, yet I have still the loss: The offender's sorrow lends but weak relief To him that bears the strong offence's cross. Ah! but those tears are pearl which thy love sheds, And they are rich and ransom all ill deeds. |
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27 Nov 05 - 03:22 PM (#1614879) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Thomas the Rhymer YES! Got it in one, Helen! Thanks. ttr |
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27 Nov 05 - 04:27 PM (#1614903) Subject: RE: Shakespeare From: Stilly River Sage I loved the Sonnets also. They are in turn sweet, smart, sassy, witty, droll, sad, such a collection of ideas and emotions and so succinct. SRS |
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27 Nov 05 - 07:43 PM (#1615062) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: BuckMulligan I dunno why, but the sonnets have never excited me the way the plays (even the bad ones) do. Even Titus, and Cymbeline and Coriolanus, at their most dreadful, have the power to put me in the time and place and recognize why the people there were so much like me, or I like them, in spite of the gulf of time and place and station between us. |
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28 Nov 05 - 11:14 AM (#1615535) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: GUEST,Dave Crutcher Shakespeare & his contemporaries brought virtually all walks of life together to listen to stories about their society & what made them human beings, in buildings of largely vernacular architecture; they also taught us our language to a large extent. What could be more 'folksy' than that? Come to the Globe in London for a performance if you don't believe me - you'll be part of the play itself, and part of a communal experience. Don't listen to the modern soundbites - Sh. was neither truly populist or elitist, he told stories for everyone. |
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28 Nov 05 - 11:50 AM (#1615559) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: Peace He was a play writer and his job was to entertain. If his plays didn't they were closing the same night they opened. |
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28 Nov 05 - 04:36 PM (#1615759) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: kendall "And enterprises of great pith and moment become sicklyed over with the pale cast of thought, and lose the name of action." The man that hath no music in him, nor is not moved by sweet concord of sounds, is fit for treasons spoils and strategems. The motions of his spirit are as dull as Arebus. Let no such man be trusted." How can anyone call that "Junk"? |
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28 Nov 05 - 07:47 PM (#1615934) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: GUEST,ivor What do you make of all that,Wendy,NY |
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29 Nov 05 - 06:17 AM (#1616195) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: John O'L 'Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow Creeps this petty pace from day to day To the last syllable of recorded time. And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle.' Useless junk. Anybody could've written that. Eh Wendy? |
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29 Nov 05 - 07:58 AM (#1616254) Subject: RE: shakespeare From: GUEST Any genius, that is. |